Guaranteed Kona Slot

tuckerm

Head of WTC told the boys from IM Talk podcast that you are guaranteed a chance to race Kona  if you have 12+ IM finishes.  They will start with the people with the most and work down from there. 

David Ambrose

Two 70.3's should count towards one IM in this process as well, but likely one's HIM events won't count.

Al Truscott

While I suspect this may be an urban legend in the making, if it *is* true, they will probably have a caveat that, if you have already gone to race at the WTC M-Dot World Championship (aka Kona), you will be exempt from this - meaning many, many of those with dozens or scores of IM finishes will not automatically get another trip. A bit more expensive than the lottery, though.

tuckerm

I'm not sure what you mean by urban legend Al. Words cane right from the CEO. They want people who are loyal to have the opportunity to race at Kona. Sounds like the slots are coming from the existing lottery pool. I would assume if you've raced Kona you would be disqualified for this program. More details should be coming.

Carrie Chavez

This guy has likely not researched how many people have 12 plus races. There are TONS. He is opening himself up for a HUGE amount of folks he will be promising Kona slots to. This is a sport where folks do 1-4 IM's a year for years and years and years and never qualify. This will be fun to keep track of and see how it plays out. I have been blessed with a Kona lottery spot before, therefore I plan to never play the lottery again as I think it is only fair to win that lottery once.

David Ambrose

Carrie - any wise CEO would not make a public statement on something, unless their staff had already researched, compiled, and calculated the impact. WTC likely knows already, and already has the list compiled of peeps with 12 or greater IMs, as well as a forecast on the probable number if athletes each year going forward who are anticipated to reach the magic number based on their event registration history and pattern. To not have all this information and projections hashed out prior to a public comment = terrible CEO = needs to be fired.

kurshing

Don't you put your information into the registration form as to how many IMs you have participated in?

I don't think they would have too much effort to make to pull your out of their system once to screen for this...they have a database and obviously sell our information to advertisers.

I think this is a great thing for them to be doing. Rewards loyalty. At this rate, though, the lottery will really be a contest between all of the people that have 12 IM starts and no Kona bid...it will change the lottery dynamic.

Nemo Brauch

DC Rainmaker has a good summary of the podcast interview between the IMTalk boys and Andrew Messick if you don't want to listen to the whole IMTalk podcast: http://www.dcrainmaker.com/. They seem to realize this will take a few years to work through everyone and they are giving priority to folks who have done the most (kinda like Boston, you might meet the qualifying time, but faster kids get in first). There will still be slots for "the rest of us" but certainly fewer to go around, and similar(but not identical) to NYC Marathon lottery)- you get a little extra credit for entering the lottery and loosing year after year.

I kinda like the changes (even though it means I likely would never get a lottery slot). It means the folks most dedicated to the sport (and yes, the IM brand) are given the best chance of obtaining a lottery slot.

mancona

Quick thoughts:

- I think this is good for WTC's business and good for the dedicated ironman athletes as it gives them a way to get to Kona and experience it. I see it as a win/win overall
- The losers are Chellenge/Rev3/etc, as I think some people how have done X WTC races and were starting to be over the "Ironman" magic may reconsider doing just a few more branded races now if it means they get a chance to go to Kona.
- I'm with David, I'm sure they have run the numbers and my guess is they picked 12 for a reason. If not, the new CEO is off to a very bad start and wont be around long anyway
- He said everyone that has done 12 full IM's should get a chance to do Kona once. Therefore like Al said, I think this is only for people who have never done Kona.
- These slots will come from lottery slots. So there is a small impact to those that enter the lottery each year, however they are also putting a system in place to help those how consistently enter the lottery.
- The next few years may be a mess as they will have to catch up for a bit but they will get through it and it will stabalize

Out of curiosity, I'm going to start a separate thread just to see how many people have finished 12 branded ironman races and have not been to Kona in the haus?

tuckerm

I have to agree with Dave and Matt, one would assume that WTC has done their homework on this. I have listened to the interview twice now and have to say I am extremely impressed with the Andrew Messick. He has worked for the NBA to help them develop their global brand and also run the Tour of California. He is no dope.
He had some really nice ideas. He said he wants to help the pros to make a better living, improve the AG experience, improve the media exposure for the races and pros, better coverage of races, etc.
I know people will complain that they are "forcing" people to do their races. Of course they want to do that! What business doesn't want this? It's not like United honors your airline mileage from Jet Blue.

delesh

As someone who is about to do their first IM and is seeing all of the races get fewer and fewer Kona slots, while at the same time the qualifying times are getting faster and faster, it is a little depressing to see the lottery slots also get taken away. It seems likely at this point that I will never get to race in Kona or at the minimum the only possibility may be a decade or more away. Although the new rules seem to be taking all of my chances away, I do feel that the changes seem fair. I like the fact that the people who are dedicated to the sport (and obviously WTC) will be rewarded.

Kevin Walter

If I am any indication, this program will do very well. I have done 8 IM races and am signed up for #9. I had been thinking of trying Rev 3/Challenge as my next race after Placid, but as soon as they made the announcement I started to figure out to knock out 3 more branded IM's.

Just when I'm about to break out, they pull me back in.

mancona

@David - the normal lottery will still be in place but with slightly few slots. However, they will reward you for entering the lottery year after year. Like Nemo mentioned with the NYC marathon, the more years you enter the lottery the better your odds get each year.

@Kevin - I have a feeling there are quite a few people like you out there that have done 5-10 IM races and are ready to jump ship to Rev3, Challenge, etc as they were over the WTC Ironman show.

Now all of the groups below are drawn to WTC instead of others:
- One and done folks that want the ironman name, logo, experience, bragging rights, etc
- AGers that want to race Kona and have to qualify at a WTC race
- Pros that need to earn points at multiple WTC races if they want to race Kona or Vegas
- Repeat customers that are going to do multiple IM races anyway so now they figure they might as well be WTC races that will count towards their 12

All they have to do now is either start requiring a branded 70.3 and/or 5150 to be done in the year before an IM. Or start to award slots to normal IM races at 70.3s like they used to do, i.e. Earn a slot for IMWI at Kansas or Racine 70.3, etc. Then they can continue "persuade" more people to do those races instead of independents.

Paul Hough

Well - if the 12 count of WTC branded races includes IM70.3 and 5150, I'll hit the majic number at San Juan in March. But he did not say that people who have met the min will get a slot the first time they enter the lottery. It might take a number of years to work through the backlog. I'll sit it out for a couple of years and watch.

BTW, Rev 3 announced a new half in Sarasota, FL for Oct 2012. If they can get another half-dozen they should have critical mass to designate a Rev 3 championship!

tuckerm

@Paul, it is 12 full not a combination of any distance. They said the people who do the most will be taken care of first. And yeah it should take them sometime to get through them all.

TerryO

What the program will significantly reduce, thankfully, is the number of non-triathletes, couch potatos, etc. who get lottery slots, in essence stealing slots from legitimate triathletes that want the chance to do the race who would otherwise not be able to qualify (like me). True athletes, that really care about racing there, will sign up year after year in the lottery whereas a lot of the "bucket listers" won't. So there should be a better chance for those athletes. I also still think that the World Championships for the ironman distance should not be anyone's first ironman, AG'er or pro. Whether by time, or experience, there should be some prerequisites to doing Kona for everyone. There are plenty of other ironmans out there that anyone can enter. I mean seriously, should it be OK to climb Everest just because you can hike up your local 8000 foot mountain?

chris malone

If you thin out the say we did its (and there's nothing wrong with that, but they can do Wisconsin) and replace them with devoted long course triathletes who earn their way in, then Kona becomes K2 and the others can be Everest.

Maybe not such as good analogy as 1 out of every 4 people who summit K2 (about 300) die on the way down. Now that is suffering.

Paul Hough

@ Tucker - Hmmm, only 8 more to go!

@ Terry - Amen, amen, amen! Plus, every year on TV, I see a few extra large Clydesdales at Kona that I know are lottery winners...and probably 1st timers or barely qualifying. It detracts from the championship aspect. Had a friend finish this year. He got his slot after 8 straight years of playing the lottery. Steering the lottery towards multiple IM finishers and many-year lottery losers is a step in the right direction. It's nice to be able to say something positive about WTC for a change.

tuckerm

Posted By Terry Olivas on 11 Oct 2011 02:12 PM

What the program will significantly reduce, thankfully, is the number of non-triathletes, couch potatos, etc. who get lottery slots, in essence stealing slots from legitimate triathletes that want the chance to do the race who would otherwise not be able to qualify (like me). True athletes, that really care about racing there, will sign up year after year in the lottery whereas a lot of the "bucket listers" won't. So there should be a better chance for those athletes. I also still think that the World Championships for the ironman distance should not be anyone's first ironman, AG'er or pro. Whether by time, or experience, there should be some prerequisites to doing Kona for everyone. There are plenty of other ironmans out there that anyone can enter. I mean seriously, should it be OK to climb Everest just because you can hike up your local 8000 foot mountain?

Wow after reading this I felt like I was on Slowtwitch with this elitist attitude.  What gives you the right to say someone who won a lottery stole a spot from any of the rest of us?  The lottery was put in place to allow normal people, triathlete and non-triathlete alike,  to particapate at Kona.  Please get off your high horse because remember if this lottery was never in place, the race would be qualifier only eliminating just about all of us here from ever racing there.

 

 

GMAN 19030

Posted By Carrie Chavez on 10 Oct 2011 01:03 AM

This guy has likely not researched how many people have 12 plus races. There are TONS. He is opening himself up for a HUGE amount of folks he will be promising Kona slots to. This is a sport where folks do 1-4 IM's a year for years and years and years and never qualify. This will be fun to keep track of and see how it plays out. I have been blessed with a Kona lottery spot before, therefore I plan to never play the lottery again as I think it is only fair to win that lottery once.

I read somewhere in the bowels of ST that the number of 12+ IM finishers (who haven't previously KQ'd) is nowhere near as large as people think.  It's in one of the threads over there and seemed to come from someone in the know.

Kevin Walter

Yikes! Don't let this one get too over heated! Remember "Cool stuff with fitness." Doing Kona is cool no matter how you get/got in and even cooler if you do it with EN.

Personally, this 12-fer slot is going to be easier than my other plan to add on 300lbs, get on Biggest Loser, lose 300lbs, and then get one of those Biggest Loser slots. I would go for a "The Bachelor" slot, but don't think my wife would like it.

Scott Alexander

Don't people that get a lottery spot have to "validate" their lottery with at least a 70.3 completion in that span between lottery selection (mid-April) and race day (2nd wknd of Oct)?

Michael Johnson

Wow, I have done 4 WTC IMs and 4 Independent IMs....Oh well

I have entered the lottery probably at least the last 8 years....with no avail!

Im not sure how I feel about this, but, those of us who have been doing this for a while "might" have a slight chance of improving our odds. I dunno.....would  love to know, IF they exclude the 12 IMers/KQers what the pool and what MY chances would increase.

I was thinking this weekend, as I saw a guy who was probably "near" my age fail to make the swim cutoff, I kept thinkiing how that how is it fair (gosh I hate when I say that) that he got a chance at Kona, and I don't?Jealousy.... I suppose this comes from someone who is desperate to try Kona and keep thinking one day I will go!

I don't do this sport, JUST to get to Kona, it much more deeper than that. BUT, I sure would love to experience it once in my life.

BTW, ifI I just keep getting faster (and older) so MAYBE I can be a KQer. I guess that's the only true guarantee!!!

 

Al Truscott

I've been mulling over how I feel about this, and reflecting on my personal history with the issue. Like Carrie, I no longer play the lottery, as I feel those who have not yet done should get a chance. So one thought is - if you've ever raced @ Kona, you should not be allowed in the lottery, either the new 12+ one nor the standard one. Second thought is, Kona has always seemed like the Masters, or Mecca to most Triathletes I've known, and is often the only thing non-triathletes know about our sport. So it carries a very special aura with it. After 5 years of doing tris, and after 6-7 IMs in 4 years, I went to watch the race in 2004, assuming that was the only way I'd get to see what it was all about. I see people doing this every year, going out almost as on a pilgrimage to a holy place (but a lot more fun than wearing sackcloth/ashes). The race carries such a magic with it in our world, anything that increases the possibility one might get to race there is a good thing. I see nothing bad, and everything good about either the rolldown or the lottery gods spreading pixie dust around as many people as possible - it can only increase the level of good vibes within our little sport. While images of total exhaustion from people like Craig Alexander or Chrissie Wellington tell one story about the "World Championship", the smiles on the people running on after dark, on the faces of all the volunteers, and even on the people I saw lying on cots beside me when I was in the medical tent show another side to being there. It's true what the commentators say, just getting to the starting line and participating is a proud achievement in itself. There are no couch potatos in Ironman.

J.T. Thompson

My reaction to the change was that it was a good move overall. Let people dedicated to the sport experience Kona and allows those who continually give money to the foundation to have a better chance of going. All good. Do think they need to keep enough of the lottery to allow normal people to get in as is the tradition of the race and part of what makes triathlon great.

What I'm wondering - and maybe the Kona vets can help, is that I know the race is limited to about 1800 racers due to the size of the pier. So why don't they make the pier bigger? WTC could pitch in some $ by a slightly increased race entrance fee and higher sponsor fees, and the island could pitch in $ since they would have that many more racers..... I'm sure this has been looked out and there's a reason why they can't expand, so curious....?? Lot's of other IM's have fields of 2500....??

Kevin Walter

@JT: I don't even think they need to make the pier bigger. Since volunteers retrieve your bike for you, I could see a whole variety of set-ups where bikes could be stacked on top of other bikes (sort of a top and bottom type rack) if necessary to create more space.

tuckerm

Do they get your bike for you in Kona? They certainly don't for the pros and could imagine a giant shitshow if they fetched AG bikes.

Al Truscott

Even tho Kona is single loop on both swim and bike, crowding issues are already apparent even with th e current size field. Remember that its mostly pointy end people, so most finish between 9 and 11 hours. It's easier to get a penalty among 1800 bikers on the Queen K than it is among, say, 2400 in the Okanagan @IMC. It's not like other IMs with 2500folks spread out between 5 PM and midnight. also, there may be capacity issues and concerns outside of the race itself, the community elders may be helping to keep a lid on the size. Finally, the quality of the support at that race may be such that there is little money to be made by WTC from more people. Otherwise they would have already invested in more bike space?

Paul Hough

200 additional racers at $600 each only generates $120,000. Subtract the costs of supporting the racer and the gross margin easily drops under $100K. I'm sure a pier expansion would cost 10s of millions. Factor in the time value of money, and a pier expansion is probably a huge economic loser - even with 500 additional entries - unless it could be used to support other revenue generating activities to cover those costs.

Coach Patrick

I think this is a good play for the brand and for Kona. Having just been at my 5th race, 4th racing, I can honestly say that all triathletes who love the sport need to make the pilgrimage. It's just that cool. Now that more folks who have been "at it" for longer will have better odds, it gets even better. Time to start planning out the next decade, folks!!

Kevin Walter

@Tucker. True, don't really know if they get bikes for you at Kona or not. Since they do at Placid and Arizona, I figured they would at Kona as well? Volunteers grabbing the bikes at Placid seems to work well, but I can see folks being a little more uptight at Kona if their bike isn't right there for them so I agree might be a storm of controversy.

@Al. I agree crowding on the course is probably the real limiter in terms of race size. If it were really just the pier size then any number of work arounds to increase the effective pier size would seem reasonable.