The set up at the pier is designed so that everyone runs to his/her own bike and covers the same distance in doing so. Bike catchers do grab your bike at the end of that leg. The bike "racks" are more like Canada, with rows of wooden slots to place wheels in, so bikes are awfully close together.
Sorry to continue to bring this off topic. As far as crowding at Kona, Al is right ( like usual) the first 10 miles of the bike is a disaster as the majority of the people racing come out of the water in the same ~10-20 minutes.
Room in T1 can be fixed if they wanted to.
Volunteer support and how many more triathletes Kona can handle may be issues.
IF they did want to expand the race, I would suggest going to a three wave start (actually I think this would be good for all IM): - Wave 1 - 6:30 - All Male and Female Pros - Wave 2 - 7:00 - Competitive AG wave. Folks that want to be eligble for awards (or a Kona slot at other IMs) choose this wave - Wave 3 - 7:30 - Everyone else. This way lottery winners and people that don't care about awards can start in a smaller wave and behind the mess. This also helps to spread the mess out out early in the bike.
Another option is to do two waves (4 total) for the competitive AGer to try and split them in half... maybe 7:00 is everyone 39 and under, and 7:15 is everyone 40 and over.
I know this screws up the huge mass start for NBC and that it could force them to the finish line set up until 12:30, but I think it would be a way to get more people on the course by spreading them out a bit.
I would wonder it this will start a trend among those at <12IMs to just start "hoarding" finishes....IOW, start doing 2-3 yrs IMs instead of doing 1 IM/yr?</p>
I'm not sure if I can think of a ton of people, even just in EN, that repeatedly do 2-3 IMs every year. And the ones I think of have already raced Kona. And assuming that those that are at 12+ are most likely less than elite athletes - else they probably would have gotten to Kona already - I think it'd be difficult for someone who is a non-elite to do 2-3 IMs a year considering it's likely they have other life stuff going on.
Actually, when I first heard it I thought that it would do more to increase the older age groups, maybe like 50 or 55+, and their representation at Kona, thus giving new people an opportunity to race without adding to the congestion Matt and Al talked about since they'd probably be toward the back end.
How many "normal" people can train and race 12 IM's without their body falling apart first? I have a friend that will be at 9 IM's at IMAZ and his body is just about done. I feel horrible for him as this has become so much a part of his life.
@Matt A - I like the idea of separate waves for front and back of the packers. It could also be broken down by male/female instead of age.
As I think of who I know locally, I can only think of a very, very small handful who would have that number. Yano, if you're reading, I thinking of the IITC crowd, Gary and Carla specifically. This couple had raced >10, I think by back in the day of about 2004-5 when I was still seeing them on a regular basis. They volunteer at IM's, Gary puts on a couple XTerra races now, but they've never done Kona.
Of people I've coached...can't think of many 12'ers, except Dave Tallo?
But having been to a gillion IM's and seen the same faces all the time...those folks are out there but, jeezus, 12 x IM's is a lot! You figure that with the exception of the Truly Nutty Few, you're talking about 7-8yrs, minimum, of nearly full-time IM focus to get your 12.
Great point Daniela. Even if some one is dedicated enough, has the means, and the lifestyle to allow them to do 12 fulls, their body may break down from all the training and racing year over year. I'm sure many can do it but it's not for everyone.
@Rich - Dave Tallo, Steve Chavez, P, and Al are the ENers I thought of first that have done 12. But both all have earned a Kona slot. I have yet to find someone that has done 12 and has not been to Kona.
@ Matt - Wasn't Eric Blakie in that crowd until this year? I recall reading he had over 20 until he finally qualified at Canada. So you are right...not many make that number and haven't already earned a ticket.
All right, I'll admit it: Arizona this fall will be the 23rd Ironman I've trained up for since FL in 2000. Presumably it will be my 18th finish. Somehow, it just happened when I wasn't looking, like getting to be 62 years old. The problem was, it took me 8 races to qualify for Kona (the five year plan worked), and then it was hard to stop after I finally learned how to race and kept doing well. Or maybe some kind of drug in the Gatorade/Perform? Like whatever they put in the food at McDonald's to keep people coming back, 'cause certainly no one goes there for the taste.
The more amazing thing, my wife has been at 16/18 finishes, and, worse, both DNFs. I'm sure I wouldn't have kept going if I didn't have that kind of spousal support.
Good on Al T. and Eric Blackie. Over 40 races between them. Wow.
I like the idea of staggered starts in Kona to help increase the numbers of starters. Someone please talk to wtc.
At this point, I am pretty sure I would only go to Kona if I qualify. But I suppose I could change my mind when I get to 12. If my wife allows, will continue to play the lottery for her. Then if the stars align, we could go to Kona together.
Something kind of related to the discussion of getting 12 slots. I think it is a shame not to do two Ironmans per year. We spend all this time training only for one a year? If the races are separated by three months or more, you can bring the fitness from one to the other. And easier on the nerves knowing that a catastrophe on one day still leaves another chance that year.
I, for one, am not gonna bite on WTC's hook. I will continue to do this tri stuff as long as it's fun, as long as swimming continues to baffle me and I refuse to give up, as long as I know I can bike better, and as long as I KNOW I can put together a better post112mile bike run.
Some times, I'll sign up for the Hyped WTC events just for the cool mojo and sometimes I'll go indy. Indy is a good route when I want to go long but stay pretty low key on the 'Hey Look at Chris Training for an Ironman' radar at the homefront. And some years, I'll stick to shorter stuff and half's.
Bottom line for me is this, if I start focusing on it from a different perspective, the way that WTC is hoping I'll focus on it, then it becomes a job with a pass/fail box at the end. I don't do the tri thing with an end goal in mind. Just keep moving and trying to make little improvements.
It'll take many more years of EN for me to have any chance of a roll down slot, if that's even around then. Looks like the lottery is pretty much gone, too. But, trust me, I'll sleep just fine at night over this.
As others have done, I really like the idea of taking the fam to Kona for a vacay that week, and just absorb the energy!
As far as doing multiple IM's in a year...I think most of us could handle finishing 2-3 IM's in a year without any problem. It's another angle on proper pacing throughout the year. I'm stubborn, short of catastrophe, I'm finishing. If I'm racing 3 in a year, I'm racing #'s 1 and 2 very conservatively and then 'racing' the last one. If $ were no issue, I would do this in a heartbeat.
I'm at 2 so I'm nowhere near 12. That's probably a minimum of 10 years if I were to chase 12 finishes. What will the policy be 10 years from now? If I were closer to the magical number 12 I'd be more excited about the policy. Otherwise, it doesn't phase me one bit.
Something kind of related to the discussion of getting 12 slots. I think it is a shame not to do two Ironmans per year. We spend all this time training only for one a year? If the races are separated by three months or more, you can bring the fitness from one to the other. And easier on the nerves knowing that a catastrophe on one day still leaves another chance that year.
While I definitely agree about the fitness aspect, I'm not sure I could handle the mental and social aspects. Personally, IM training took a lot out of me, and even though I had an awful race, I don't think I would have enjoyed going back to training for another IM race a few months later. I was glad to be done and unstructured for a while. I would do something shorter, like rocking a sprint, but mainly cause I just let the fitness roll down without any real "prep."
I definitely want to do Kona, it's always been a goal. As I was thinking about this, and whether I wanted to start doing the lottery soon, I realized that I'd probably have a higher opinion of myself (or even someone else) if I got age group slot or got in for doing 12+ more than if I got in through the lottery. I like the lottery too, and I think it's good for the sport, but I'm immediately more impressed with the other two accomplishments. Of course this isn't to say I won't start doing the lottery soon
Something kind of related to the discussion of getting 12 slots. I think it is a shame not to do two Ironmans per year. We spend all this time training only for one a year? If the races are separated by three months or more, you can bring the fitness from one to the other. And easier on the nerves knowing that a catastrophe on one day still leaves another chance that year.
It's certainly not easier on family, relationships, and work -- which are far more important. I did two IM's in a seven month span and would never do that again. It was extremely selfish and time consuming. My wife and son's tolerance for two IM's per year wouldn't last very long.
As far as doing multiple IM's in a year...I think most of us could handle finishing 2-3 IM's in a year without any problem. It's another angle on proper pacing throughout the year. I'm stubborn, short of catastrophe, I'm finishing. If I'm racing 3 in a year, I'm racing #'s 1 and 2 very conservatively and then 'racing' the last one. If $ were no issue, I would do this in a heartbeat.
I think "completing" vs "competing at " 3 per year is taking a very different toll on the body. I remember doing a practice swim before IMWI chatting with a woman who had just done IMLP a few weeks earlier. She said she has been doing multiple Ironman races for as long as there were multiple IM events to enter. She just loves the training and it's simply her lifestyle, so why not do the race too pointing out that 17 hours is pleanty of time to relax and enjoy just another training day.
But, as others here have pointed out, your body isn't the only thing that takes a hit when you do more than one IM a year. And the real "cost" is more than just money.
I think this is a great idea by WTC for many of the reasons stated here, perhaps (for them) especially the draw of keeping people in WTC-branded races. But I'm with Rich - 12 is a pretty big number. I bet most people in that category are already trying pretty hard to get to Kona. If not most, then certainly a lot more than the general population of people doing 2 or more. (I'm excluding bucket-listers who do it once.)
As was discussed in the pointy end thread a while ago, becoming "semi-pro" is how a lot of people are getting Kona slots. This is just another example of it (this time people who average >1 IM/year), with a small second group of people who have been doing IM consistently for 10-20 years.
Is the rule that you have to finish the IM, start the race, or just enter and pay the fee? If you had the money you could enter 12 IM's in a year. Would be an expensive way to get a slot, but I could see someone doing it.
While they haven't actually rolled out documentation on the "rules" yet, based on the interview with IMTALK where they announced this new program, I'm going to guess that paying 12 race entry fees and not racing is not going to get you the guaranteed entry to Kona. He makes the point that they want to reward "long time" or "serious" triathletes who have "done" 12 IM's. Obviously there are folks who would try to game the system, but they should be able to write the T&C's tight enough to ensure the spirit of the new rule is honored.
I'm at 4 now, with #5 planned for IMCOZ 2012. It would be nice to earn a slot to Kona, but that is going to become so much harder beginning in 2012 with the reduction in Kona slots to 50 at most IMs. It's possible that a lot of people who had hoped to earn a slot have done the calculus and now realize that their dream of Kona now borders on impossible. Perhaps the timing of this announcement by WTC is in response to folks who are giving up the chase and have told them so. I've been planning on doing at least 7, but after that there are other challenges. This policy may be the carrot necessary to keep people in the game. It's a smart move by WTC, and like Nemo, I don't think they will allow people to game it.
Let's see, 12 x $700 = $8400. Treble that for airfare, lodging, you've got maybe $25,000 outlay. The Ebay Kona slots are auctioned off in the range of $40,000. Sounds like a bargain ...
@Matt - I have a good friend that has done close to 12 (I think he is at 10 now) and has never been able to crack the code. He's always just outside the rolldowns.
I think this is a great move for WTC. Personally, I have finished 6 IM distances (1x year, the past 6 years, and will be competing at #7 this year in Placid). My dream has always been Kona, but with the times dropping the way they have been, I do not see legitmately qualifying as an option for me. Yet-Im not a huge fan of the Kona lottery. I do feel that "earning" your space on the island is necessary-and for those that can not "earn" their space by speed, the dedication to the sport/event will earn them that slot. I know that stating my opinion against the lottery is controversial to begin with. I just see this as "earning" your spot in Hawaii in a different, not speed-demon way. This is the way I will be shooting for-6 more years
This is a good move, I've done 5 and (was) definitely over the Ironman branded hoopla. They put on great races don't get me wrong. This however sort of resets my brand loyalty. I got a while I'm 32 been racing long course for since 2004 so no real hurry. I'll probably get to 11 and some other group will buy WTC, they will ditch the CEO and the program.
For the record, I WILL race at Kona somehow. And Lauren, I have no problem "gaming" the system. If I get there, that will be the victory for me. I will enter the lottery every yr. I've only done 1 so far, but maybe I'll get to 12. Maybe I'll try the Executive Challenge, or maybe it will be a massive fundraising effort to earn a charity slot, but I WILL race at Kona some day. I'm a MOP'er but heck there were a couple EN MOP'ers that earned their way to the FOP with many yr's of hard focussed work. I used to tell my wife that I'll earn an AG slot when I age up to the 80-85 group, but At least now I'll likely get to 12 before that. Did I mention that I WILL race at Kona someday.
@WIthrow: i will be right beside you, time to amp up and do two IMs a year, what are your plans next year? i am doing my 3rd in 366 days when i do IMAZ, you can get to 12!!! for the record, you have a better shot of KQing than i ever will!
Comments
The set up at the pier is designed so that everyone runs to his/her own bike and covers the same distance in doing so. Bike catchers do grab your bike at the end of that leg. The bike "racks" are more like Canada, with rows of wooden slots to place wheels in, so bikes are awfully close together.
Room in T1 can be fixed if they wanted to.
Volunteer support and how many more triathletes Kona can handle may be issues.
IF they did want to expand the race, I would suggest going to a three wave start (actually I think this would be good for all IM):
- Wave 1 - 6:30 - All Male and Female Pros
- Wave 2 - 7:00 - Competitive AG wave. Folks that want to be eligble for awards (or a Kona slot at other IMs) choose this wave
- Wave 3 - 7:30 - Everyone else. This way lottery winners and people that don't care about awards can start in a smaller wave and behind the mess. This also helps to spread the mess out out early in the bike.
Another option is to do two waves (4 total) for the competitive AGer to try and split them in half... maybe 7:00 is everyone 39 and under, and 7:15 is everyone 40 and over.
I know this screws up the huge mass start for NBC and that it could force them to the finish line set up until 12:30, but I think it would be a way to get more people on the course by spreading them out a bit.
I would wonder it this will start a trend among those at <12IMs to just start "hoarding" finishes....IOW, start doing 2-3 yrs IMs instead of doing 1 IM/yr?</p>
Actually, when I first heard it I thought that it would do more to increase the older age groups, maybe like 50 or 55+, and their representation at Kona, thus giving new people an opportunity to race without adding to the congestion Matt and Al talked about since they'd probably be toward the back end.
@Matt A - I like the idea of separate waves for front and back of the packers. It could also be broken down by male/female instead of age.
12 Ironmans is a LOT of Ironmans!!
As I think of who I know locally, I can only think of a very, very small handful who would have that number. Yano, if you're reading, I thinking of the IITC crowd, Gary and Carla specifically. This couple had raced >10, I think by back in the day of about 2004-5 when I was still seeing them on a regular basis. They volunteer at IM's, Gary puts on a couple XTerra races now, but they've never done Kona.
Of people I've coached...can't think of many 12'ers, except Dave Tallo?
But having been to a gillion IM's and seen the same faces all the time...those folks are out there but, jeezus, 12 x IM's is a lot! You figure that with the exception of the Truly Nutty Few, you're talking about 7-8yrs, minimum, of nearly full-time IM focus to get your 12.
@Rich - Dave Tallo, Steve Chavez, P, and Al are the ENers I thought of first that have done 12. But both all have earned a Kona slot. I have yet to find someone that has done 12 and has not been to Kona.
All right, I'll admit it: Arizona this fall will be the 23rd Ironman I've trained up for since FL in 2000. Presumably it will be my 18th finish. Somehow, it just happened when I wasn't looking, like getting to be 62 years old. The problem was, it took me 8 races to qualify for Kona (the five year plan worked), and then it was hard to stop after I finally learned how to race and kept doing well. Or maybe some kind of drug in the Gatorade/Perform? Like whatever they put in the food at McDonald's to keep people coming back, 'cause certainly no one goes there for the taste.
The more amazing thing, my wife has been at 16/18 finishes, and, worse, both DNFs. I'm sure I wouldn't have kept going if I didn't have that kind of spousal support.
See...that's what I'm sayin' Only total friggin' whackjobs get to 12...
Good on Al T. and Eric Blackie. Over 40 races between them. Wow.
I like the idea of staggered starts in Kona to help increase the numbers of starters. Someone please talk to wtc.
At this point, I am pretty sure I would only go to Kona if I qualify. But I suppose I could change my mind when I get to 12. If my wife allows, will continue to play the lottery for her. Then if the stars align, we could go to Kona together.
Something kind of related to the discussion of getting 12 slots. I think it is a shame not to do two Ironmans per year. We spend all this time training only for one a year? If the races are separated by three months or more, you can bring the fitness from one to the other. And easier on the nerves knowing that a catastrophe on one day still leaves another chance that year.
Some times, I'll sign up for the Hyped WTC events just for the cool mojo and sometimes I'll go indy. Indy is a good route when I want to go long but stay pretty low key on the 'Hey Look at Chris Training for an Ironman' radar at the homefront. And some years, I'll stick to shorter stuff and half's.
Bottom line for me is this, if I start focusing on it from a different perspective, the way that WTC is hoping I'll focus on it, then it becomes a job with a pass/fail box at the end. I don't do the tri thing with an end goal in mind. Just keep moving and trying to make little improvements.
It'll take many more years of EN for me to have any chance of a roll down slot, if that's even around then. Looks like the lottery is pretty much gone, too. But, trust me, I'll sleep just fine at night over this.
As others have done, I really like the idea of taking the fam to Kona for a vacay that week, and just absorb the energy!
C
While I definitely agree about the fitness aspect, I'm not sure I could handle the mental and social aspects. Personally, IM training took a lot out of me, and even though I had an awful race, I don't think I would have enjoyed going back to training for another IM race a few months later. I was glad to be done and unstructured for a while. I would do something shorter, like rocking a sprint, but mainly cause I just let the fitness roll down without any real "prep."
I definitely want to do Kona, it's always been a goal. As I was thinking about this, and whether I wanted to start doing the lottery soon, I realized that I'd probably have a higher opinion of myself (or even someone else) if I got age group slot or got in for doing 12+ more than if I got in through the lottery. I like the lottery too, and I think it's good for the sport, but I'm immediately more impressed with the other two accomplishments. Of course this isn't to say I won't start doing the lottery soon
It's certainly not easier on family, relationships, and work -- which are far more important. I did two IM's in a seven month span and would never do that again. It was extremely selfish and time consuming. My wife and son's tolerance for two IM's per year wouldn't last very long.
I think "completing" vs "competing at " 3 per year is taking a very different toll on the body. I remember doing a practice swim before IMWI chatting with a woman who had just done IMLP a few weeks earlier. She said she has been doing multiple Ironman races for as long as there were multiple IM events to enter. She just loves the training and it's simply her lifestyle, so why not do the race too pointing out that 17 hours is pleanty of time to relax and enjoy just another training day.
But, as others here have pointed out, your body isn't the only thing that takes a hit when you do more than one IM a year. And the real "cost" is more than just money.
As was discussed in the pointy end thread a while ago, becoming "semi-pro" is how a lot of people are getting Kona slots. This is just another example of it (this time people who average >1 IM/year), with a small second group of people who have been doing IM consistently for 10-20 years.
Let's see, 12 x $700 = $8400. Treble that for airfare, lodging, you've got maybe $25,000 outlay. The Ebay Kona slots are auctioned off in the range of $40,000. Sounds like a bargain ...
@Matt - I have a good friend that has done close to 12 (I think he is at 10 now) and has never been able to crack the code. He's always just outside the rolldowns.
i will be right beside you, time to amp up and do two IMs a year, what are your plans next year? i am doing my 3rd in 366 days when i do IMAZ, you can get to 12!!! for the record, you have a better shot of KQing than i ever will!