Here is the USADA letter courtesy of Slow Twitch. I don't see a smoking gun, but I am a laymen. If they have damning evidence other than a suspicious test a decade ago and a few anomalies from two years ago, let's see it.
In light of Armstrong being immediately barred from competing in triathlon, I am surprised that I have not yet heard that Johan Bruyneel was not immediately removed as directeur sportif of Team RadioShack-Nissan-Trek.
USADA is pretty lame but it is clear that LA and Bruneel were the biggest and best dopers out there in that era and about 10 former pros/teammates from the era have said so. And he did fail a test in the Swiss tour, but it was set aside. Tough shit for Lance as to timing. WTC rules are rules- FOR ALL and in my view it's a PR windfall for triathlon (long term) to sit him down. Shows they're serious about cleanliness and don;t want to be carrying pro cycling's baggage. I'm personally tired of rules for Lance and then rules for everyone else. WADA is next. His legal battery (that less rich folk don't have access to) has kept him safe thus far so who knows. He'll probably skate but I don't think they would come back to this issue with LA unless they have the goods. And I don't think they need the smoking gun itself. They just need lots of people to say they saw it in his hand. It's all very sad given what he's accomplished otherwise.
So he's banned from WTC....Anyone else kind of feel sorry for lance and that this is all a little BS....Regardless if he was doing these things, which he probably was, he was cleared of them by one organization and now he's under investigation by another and so he's banned...isn't that kind of like guilty until proven innocent....
See the current article on ST. He's not banned from anything by USADA (there is some modicum of due process there). However, part of WTC's pro 'contract' stipulates that athletes cannot compete during an investigation. Maybe we'll see him at a Challenge race instead?
There's not much time for WTC to fix this. If they don't let him race IM France, then I would say the WTC-Livestrong partnership is over, and Kona is dead dream. If Lance signed that policy with WTC then there's not much room to maneuver, but it sure seems stupid to ban athletes in one sport based on poorly supported hearsay allegations in another support. Although I admire Lance's fortitude, I'm not a fan or a hater; but this isn't helping the sport in anyway. It would be real Karma if he ended up at Challenge Roth and then pushing up Rev 3's visibility.
Normally nobody would care if any pro was suspended pending investigation as it would have no monetary affect on WTC. From your Alexanders, Wellingtons, McCormacks, or C-level pro - no one gives a shit. Their very own policy is about to cost them millions of dollars because of who this rule is now affecting.
Frankly, it's in their best interest and the sports best interest to let Lance race. It may come across as self-serving and even duplicitious but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
Yep, this is a multi-bagillion dollar decision that WTC is making, has made, etc, and is made all the more curious and interesting by the fact that USAT does not have this same clause. IOW, Lance "could" race any non-WTC race he wanted to, he is not banned by USAT. My prediction:
WTC will announce that it is "entering a discussion" with USAT to bring it's races back under the USAT officiating and whatever else umbrella.
As a result of this renew discussion, WTC will immediately begin to place itself under USAT officiating rules and...
Therefore athletes under investigation will still be allowed to race.
Just takes an email from WTC to USAT to set up a conference call in, say, July or so, a press release announcing they are entering these discussions, and another release announcing the "under investigation" part above, followed in another week or so by "yes, that means Lance."
At the end of the day, WTC is a business. This is a LOT of money, people will still race their races if Lance is allowed to race (very, very strong argument that IM popularity will explode when he does), and they've clearly demonstrated with many decisions over the years that the pro race is basically a side show and not at the core of their business. IOW, they could give a shit what Rapp, Crowie and anyone else says about this decision....which would put millions of dollars in their pockets.
@ Rich: your last three words are on the money (pun intended) remember that WTC is in discussions (or was) to have NBC to a telecast where the last hour or so of the race would be live. This is ONLY happening because of the Lance Factor.
I am sure they will figure out a way to make this happen for Lance to race and qualify for Kona and that it will become incredibly difficult to gain entry to any IM event for the next few years once he does.
WTC/Ironman will have an official announcement about this whole Lance thing later today. Lance has been over in France training and prepping for IM France. He was apparently going to fly back to the States because he wasn't going to be allowed to race but has decided to stay in France pending today's announcement.
I think they're going to change their policy. Yes, it's completely self-serving in this instance and the only reason they would change it is because it's Lance Armstrong. He is the only pro triathlete that could have brought about this change. That stated, it is the fair thing to do. I never knew WTC had that policy to begin with and thought it was a bit Draconian when I first heard about it.
Or they're going to stick by their policy come hell or high water. While I'd be impressed by their fortitude, it would be a stupid, stupid thing to not change their policy. They stand to lose millions of dollars not to mention they look like assholes and burned a mighty big bridge if (when) Lance is cleared.
The WTC may reverse themselves and cave to the many money interests that depend upon the LA factor. It is a business, indeed, and the public likes LA.
I love watching him compete, always have, and I used to take a laissez faire attitude towards pro doping- they all do it so it's just another level playing field. But they didn't all do it and some damn good athletes were run out of the game, couldn't make a buck or win a stage or even stay in the peleton by guys like LA and Bruyneel who only did what the Euros were already doing. They just did it American style, bigger and with more money and organization.
LA made his choices and made a lot of enemies through his arrogance, steadfast denials, and intimidations (legal and personal) and it's coming home to roost. USADA and WADA have lots of people making them do they're jobs- even when they run up against an icon. But a la Barry Bonds, LA's team will tie this all up for a long time.
He'll be stripped of titles when all is said and done and they'll give the wins to the second place guy- who probably also doped.
He'll be stripped of titles when all is said and done and they'll give the wins to the second place guy- who probably also doped.
Someone went through this scenario on ST and it was pretty much determined they would often have to go relatively deep into the top-10 to find someone who didn't cheat.
They don't have a positive test. If they did, it would have come out then (see Landis, Contador, and a ton of other dudes who didn't win). Positive tests don't get hidden. They have some blood work that looked abnormal, and may have been consistent with doping, from the Tour de Suisse in '09. But even the lab director on those tests has said he would never testify based on what was seen in those results.
So, what they have is a lot of circumstantial evidence (Floyd, Tyler, Betsey Andreu, others). There's a reason why lawyers call this circumstantial evidence. Imagine a hypothetical situation where Lance was so much better than everybody else, that he could compete clean against a field of dopers. But he needed a strong team, and the only way to put that together was to make sure his domestiques were doping. In that case, he might have a conversation along the lines of "yeah, I'm doing it, everybody's doing it, you need to do it to be competitive." Doesn't mean he did it. Just means he told somebody he did it. Big difference.
There's a reason why Nowitzsky dropped his case. Because he knew he wouldn't win. I have a hard time believing that USADA has something new/different on him.
All this said, I don't think he was clean. I just don't think anybody will be able to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he was dirty.
If they stripped his title, there would be a gaping hole of seven years with no champion named. There's no way to prove that any of them were clean, and I'm sure LeTour wouldn't want to issue the title to someone else, only to find out later that they were also dirty...
I think its a pretty easy decision for WTC to let him race, its really just how they frame it to everyone else that makes it a little tougher. Lance has been top page news the last two days. Totally agree, that WTC probably doesn't give .02cents about the other Ironman pros opinion on the matter. The first pro that complains gets to take a drug test themselves
Like I said in an earlier post in this thread Lance is WAY bigger of an athlete than anyone else int he field. Its hard to even compare...Craig Alexander or Chrissie could walk through most airports unnoticed...Lance Armstrong would be surrounded by people wanting his autograph....
Lance's steroid use is kind of an old news story at this point....
How about a clever marketing campaign making fun at the whole thing...Lance Cheating at playing checkers or something...Although maybe LA wouldn't think that was so funny.
I think with the olympics looming that there are much more relevant, real-time issues that the powers that be could be focusing on. Dope or no dope, if he's not testing positive right now then, he's clean...just like me.
I would not be surprised either if they find some way to clear him to race. When the WTC wrote this rule book they probably could have never anticipated the circumstances such as this that would lead to an "investigation" that could go on for months for possible infractions committed years before in another sport.
They probably wrote that rule on the assumption that triathlon pros would only come under investigation if someone tested positve (both samples) at one of their races or in an out of competition test. At that point, suspension would be warranted, and even though an athtlete could appeal, they would already have strong evidence in hand.
I'll give them some credit for sticking to their guns but it's a stupid, stupid decision on their part. This was a great opportunity to change a bad rule/policy and they didn't do it and it's going to cost them.
From the article: "...to keep in place the current, more hard line policy, which errs on the side of a more drug-free sport, but at the expense of generally accepted due process, and an accused athlete's presumption of innocence"
What is complete B$ is that this (so-called) investigation could go on ad infinatum. Unless I misread the accusation letter, there is not a defined timeframe. And that is the number two reason why WTC should change its draconian policy.
I like how they said the member PROs were split. My guess it was split as FEMALE: We Don't Care, Rule Change Good For Us MALE: We Care (He's Killing Us At Races!!!), Rule Change Would be Good For Us.
I get the "integrity" play that Messick mentioned, but I want to hear more about the decision. Bottom line is that change isn't always pretty and doesn't happen as "planned"...my guess this was not on the docket in the future until now. This could be a real chance for someone like Challenge or Rev to capture lance, attention, and sponsor dollars. To make that elusive alternative to Kona and do some serious game changing...
Such a crazy world. The whole "never tested positive thing" is what kills me. This will all not happen fast. They looking at anomalies that occurred YEARS ago! Crazy!
In other news, where can I get some of this great dope? If work works, how well does dope work? I crack myself up....
Seems to me that this will set an unsettling precedent. If WTC chooses to stick to their rule of excluding athletes based on pending investigations, then wouldn't it be pretty easy for folks to take advantage of that just by throwing around a few accusations of doping, legitimate or otherwise? After all, if they had to follow through with Lance, then I suppose no one else will be given the benefit of the doubt.
I was listening to Elon Musk (founder of PayPal, SpaceX, Tesla Motors) give a commencement speech the other day, and I remember him saying something along the lines of "People thought I was crazy, but I had money so it was okay." I wonder if the same could be said about those who control the WTC pursestrings? Hmm...
Comments
http://www.slowtwitch.com/images/armstrong_USADA_letter.pdf
Frankly, it's in their best interest and the sports best interest to let Lance race. It may come across as self-serving and even duplicitious but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
Yep, this is a multi-bagillion dollar decision that WTC is making, has made, etc, and is made all the more curious and interesting by the fact that USAT does not have this same clause. IOW, Lance "could" race any non-WTC race he wanted to, he is not banned by USAT. My prediction:
Just takes an email from WTC to USAT to set up a conference call in, say, July or so, a press release announcing they are entering these discussions, and another release announcing the "under investigation" part above, followed in another week or so by "yes, that means Lance."
At the end of the day, WTC is a business. This is a LOT of money, people will still race their races if Lance is allowed to race (very, very strong argument that IM popularity will explode when he does), and they've clearly demonstrated with many decisions over the years that the pro race is basically a side show and not at the core of their business. IOW, they could give a shit what Rapp, Crowie and anyone else says about this decision....which would put millions of dollars in their pockets.
It's just bidness..
I am sure they will figure out a way to make this happen for Lance to race and qualify for Kona and that it will become incredibly difficult to gain entry to any IM event for the next few years once he does.
WTC/Ironman will have an official announcement about this whole Lance thing later today. Lance has been over in France training and prepping for IM France. He was apparently going to fly back to the States because he wasn't going to be allowed to race but has decided to stay in France pending today's announcement.
I think they're going to change their policy. Yes, it's completely self-serving in this instance and the only reason they would change it is because it's Lance Armstrong. He is the only pro triathlete that could have brought about this change. That stated, it is the fair thing to do. I never knew WTC had that policy to begin with and thought it was a bit Draconian when I first heard about it.
Or they're going to stick by their policy come hell or high water. While I'd be impressed by their fortitude, it would be a stupid, stupid thing to not change their policy. They stand to lose millions of dollars not to mention they look like assholes and burned a mighty big bridge if (when) Lance is cleared.
The WTC may reverse themselves and cave to the many money interests that depend upon the LA factor. It is a business, indeed, and the public likes LA.
I love watching him compete, always have, and I used to take a laissez faire attitude towards pro doping- they all do it so it's just another level playing field. But they didn't all do it and some damn good athletes were run out of the game, couldn't make a buck or win a stage or even stay in the peleton by guys like LA and Bruyneel who only did what the Euros were already doing. They just did it American style, bigger and with more money and organization.
LA made his choices and made a lot of enemies through his arrogance, steadfast denials, and intimidations (legal and personal) and it's coming home to roost. USADA and WADA have lots of people making them do they're jobs- even when they run up against an icon. But a la Barry Bonds, LA's team will tie this all up for a long time.
He'll be stripped of titles when all is said and done and they'll give the wins to the second place guy- who probably also doped.
I think we should get an EN pool going.
Someone went through this scenario on ST and it was pretty much determined they would often have to go relatively deep into the top-10 to find someone who didn't cheat.
So, what they have is a lot of circumstantial evidence (Floyd, Tyler, Betsey Andreu, others). There's a reason why lawyers call this circumstantial evidence. Imagine a hypothetical situation where Lance was so much better than everybody else, that he could compete clean against a field of dopers. But he needed a strong team, and the only way to put that together was to make sure his domestiques were doping. In that case, he might have a conversation along the lines of "yeah, I'm doing it, everybody's doing it, you need to do it to be competitive." Doesn't mean he did it. Just means he told somebody he did it. Big difference.
There's a reason why Nowitzsky dropped his case. Because he knew he wouldn't win. I have a hard time believing that USADA has something new/different on him.
All this said, I don't think he was clean. I just don't think anybody will be able to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he was dirty.
If they stripped his title, there would be a gaping hole of seven years with no champion named. There's no way to prove that any of them were clean, and I'm sure LeTour wouldn't want to issue the title to someone else, only to find out later that they were also dirty...
Like I said in an earlier post in this thread Lance is WAY bigger of an athlete than anyone else int he field. Its hard to even compare...Craig Alexander or Chrissie could walk through most airports unnoticed...Lance Armstrong would be surrounded by people wanting his autograph....
Lance's steroid use is kind of an old news story at this point....
How about a clever marketing campaign making fun at the whole thing...Lance Cheating at playing checkers or something...Although maybe LA wouldn't think that was so funny.
I would not be surprised either if they find some way to clear him to race. When the WTC wrote this rule book they probably could have never anticipated the circumstances such as this that would lead to an "investigation" that could go on for months for possible infractions committed years before in another sport.
They probably wrote that rule on the assumption that triathlon pros would only come under investigation if someone tested positve (both samples) at one of their races or in an out of competition test. At that point, suspension would be warranted, and even though an athtlete could appeal, they would already have strong evidence in hand.
Lance is officially out: http://www.slowtwitch.com/News/It_s_Official_Lance_out_of_Ironman_2855.html
I'll give them some credit for sticking to their guns but it's a stupid, stupid decision on their part. This was a great opportunity to change a bad rule/policy and they didn't do it and it's going to cost them.
From the article: "...to keep in place the current, more hard line policy, which errs on the side of a more drug-free sport, but at the expense of generally accepted due process, and an accused athlete's presumption of innocence"
What is complete B$ is that this (so-called) investigation could go on ad infinatum. Unless I misread the accusation letter, there is not a defined timeframe. And that is the number two reason why WTC should change its draconian policy.
Serious implications if he goes to another series and puts money behind recruiting other pros. Could be very, very bad for Kona...
Challenge Roth would be a good one too.
I get the "integrity" play that Messick mentioned, but I want to hear more about the decision. Bottom line is that change isn't always pretty and doesn't happen as "planned"...my guess this was not on the docket in the future until now. This could be a real chance for someone like Challenge or Rev to capture lance, attention, and sponsor dollars. To make that elusive alternative to Kona and do some serious game changing...
In other news, where can I get some of this great dope? If work works, how well does dope work? I crack myself up....
Seems to me that this will set an unsettling precedent. If WTC chooses to stick to their rule of excluding athletes based on pending investigations, then wouldn't it be pretty easy for folks to take advantage of that just by throwing around a few accusations of doping, legitimate or otherwise? After all, if they had to follow through with Lance, then I suppose no one else will be given the benefit of the doubt.
I was listening to Elon Musk (founder of PayPal, SpaceX, Tesla Motors) give a commencement speech the other day, and I remember him saying something along the lines of "People thought I was crazy, but I had money so it was okay." I wonder if the same could be said about those who control the WTC pursestrings? Hmm...