Accusations are one thing, getting a national ADA to investigate them is quite another. The mystifying thing here, of course, is these are the same accusations the US Atty felt could not be successfully prosecuted; what makes USADA think they've got a better chance?
WTC/Messick's decision is in line with his aggressive posture to create a thriving, growing business. WTC has been burned often in the recent past with decisions made, then rescinded in a whimsical fashion. Messick is providing some integrity and predicitability, which is more important over the long haul than any current influx of $$ d/t some ephemeral "Lance Factor".
Personally, I admit I will miss not getting to race with him this October, but that was never a reason to race or not race an IM for me. WTC seems to have been doing very well BEFORE it ever entered into a back scratching arrangement with Livestrong/et al, and can easily afford to abandon LA in favor of not being seen to be a podunk outfit. It's not about currying to the other pros, or seeking immediate $. It's about WTC/Messick's long-term vision. Good for them.
Agree with you Al. Although I would love to watch Lance on the Queen K ripping it up (or blowing up), I actually respect WTC for not caving in and changing the rules mid-season. Do I think the suspension rule is ify at best, yes (I'm a "innocent til proven guilty" kinda guy). However, it is the rule that all the pro's and WTC started the year agreeing to. Changing it now, while arguably the right business call, would really make WTC seem, as you say, "a podunk outfit."
Interesting interview in Lava Magazine with the WTC CEO about this quagmire he seems to find himself in. They admit they never though the rule would bite them in the ass like this.... Oh, what to do.... I bet it changes at the end of the year....
1. As for Challenge or Rev 3 hitching themselves to Lance's star at this point- I don't see it. Both are family outfits that run good, smart races. Maybe HITS? The WTC has a rule that they've applied to Lieto, Macca, Stadler, al Sultan, Wellington, Baadman, Reid, et al and so there's probably not much love lost for LA. This rule could never have contemplated a situation when a 7 time TdF winner got banned. But the rule is the rule and as I think I proposed before, WTC will end up looking good longer term for sticking to their guns.
2. The Novitske investigation was shelved and this left several of the attorneys and investigators involved in it livid. I believe the USADA has the file and plenty of evidence and it's time for LA to face the music. It's not a witch hunt or a vendetta. It's an agency doing their job. Others have been sanctioned and LA and Bruyneel can't be allowed to skate. No one wants to bring down an icon, especially not an icon that's done so much good through his charity. It's simply sad. And you can't simply drop a dime on a competitor and get them banned. It's got to be legit.
3. I can't get with the notion of Lance as victim. He's had every opportunity to reframe this, to come forward when he had (has?) so much public goodwill on his side and turn this all into a positive- for cycling and for sports in general. But he keeps on with the deny, deny, deny, strategy. He's content with being a comic book hero when he could be a Joseph Campbell hero. And he's clearly a very smart guy.
In LA's defense, his racing tri now has little to do with his alleged cheating past. I don't think he should be allowed to skate on the past when others have been sanctioned, but it seems like double jeopardy to keep him from racing tri. It's mostly irrelevant. But the sport needs to keep its image intact, WTC has a rule that's been a good rule until now and so LA gets the hook. If he's cleared he can race. Or, he can race anyway. Just not IM.
Full disclosure: I have a mancrush on Lance and think this whole ordeal is ridiculous. My bias is that the dude never 'failed' a test so he is at a minimum less dirty than everyone else he was competing against for all those yrs.
But... I have a question for someone who actually knows the minutiae of the WTC rulebook. If say 15 yrs ago he actually failed one of those tests for full on steroids or something. Or more likely, on the morning of a TDF mountain stage back then, the drug testing officials knocked on his hotel room door and found him hooked up to an IV bag getting a plasma and red blood cell infusion and he was banned from cycling for a couple of yrs, then was allowed back in eventually and went on to be a 4 time TDF winner, then retired for a few yrs, then got into triathlon. My question is would there be a lifetime ban for triathlon? If you ever failed a test of some agency's rules, can you never compete in triathlon? Or is he simply banned because he is 'under investigation'. Let's say the USADA decides tomorrow that LA definitively blood doped 14 yrs ago and they strip his 7 TDF wins, does that mean he is then free to compete at WTC events? Or do the WTC rules say that if he was caught blood doping many yrs ago that he cannot compete? If that is the case, I guess Barry Bonds better not take up triathlon as a hobby... Or should I say Jose Canseco...
@ Withrow - I get the mancrush thing on Lance, Just read "it's not about the bike" and you have to like the guy. But that is the fantasy, the one that sells tons of livestrong products, raises money and gets him noticed. The truth is that he is quite an Arse, to his first wife (how many is he up to now?) to other cyclists in the peleton, and frankly to most anyone not on board with his line of thinking. I do think he doped and i do think everyone else did too. So i don't see him as having had an unfair advantage.
I think WTC as an organization that takes a lot of flack for its profit motive, actually did the right thing by sticking to the rule book that was agreed to before the season began. It would have been good from the mancrush perspective to see what would have happened. The hollywood version of the story is quite good.
I am frankly relieved, it has been harder and harder to get into IMs, lance being involved with a life TV feed of the last 2 hours of Kona would probably make it as easy to get into an IM as it is to get front row seats to a springsteen concert via ticketmaster....
Um, I love my wife very much and I plan to only have 1 wife forever. (My wife hates LA for that very same reason) But I don't judge people's athletic abilities or overall good for society based on failed relationships. I know a lot of really great people who didn't have their first marriage workout. I think like 50% of all marriages end that way.
Doesn't sound like the rule he is falling under was the WTC's "intent" for that rule anyways...
Still curious to know if any has any insight on my question: See above, but cliff notes version "would he be banned if he actually failed a test 15 yrs ago and this was in the past, or is it because he is simply 'under investigation' "?
@John - I don't think he would be banned if he had a positive 15 years and did the time for the crime. This issue is he has not served the section, if it is merited.
As a side note... Roger Clemens was just ACQUITTED of all charges of lying to Congress! Wonder how many yrs the USADA will waste of Lances Career before they acquit...
@ John, I wasn't trying to compare you to LA on the marriage front. Given my own failure there, i hear you. I actually have had the pleasure of seeing you and Jess interact a few times and think you are an awesome couple! The problem today is that no one believes in their own vows of for "better or worse." If most people put a tenth of the effort we put into IM training into their marriages, their relationships would be fine!
Hey RnP, there is a new coaching market for you! and a HUGE one! adapt the plans to being Marriage helpers!
As a side note... Roger Clemens was just ACQUITTED of all charges of lying to Congress! Wonder how many yrs the USADA will waste of Lances Career before they acquit...
Yeah. It's a shame that all of those B12 injections may keep The Rocket out of the Hall of Fame.
Meanwhile, OJ is still searching for the real killer.............
@Paul-- I challenge that. LA won't effect the speed at which races sell out. But lack of LA factor will certainly effect the rate they could charge for advertising on the live 2hr broadcast of Kona this yr that they were rumored to be selling to NBC. Companies paying for ads simply care about how many eyes will see them, and LA would certainly effect the casual viewer's desire to tune in, thereby effecting the value of the sponsorships and TV commercials yet to be sold.
@ John - I'll give you that. TV rights would bring a LOT more revenue than IM entry fees. But unless you are an owner of Progress Equity (or pro or business owner in this industry) who cares? Tahoe shows that WTC is going to be around a lot longer, Lance or no Lance. And if Joe Blow football lover with about 5 mins of actual ball movement in 4 hrs of TV time doesn't tune in it's no skin off my back.
I'm just pissed that PnI have sunk all of this cash into changing EN to ENStrong, designing black and yellow kits, putting Dr Ferrari on the payroll....
@Rich-- I looked on the Team Discount page but didn't see BALCO on there. Can you at least email me the Team EN discount code or post it here? I need to get some more EPO before IMNYC and was hoping to get our 15% Team discount.
Interesting to see what happens if Lance never won.... Check out this link. In many cases his title would roll down to the 5 or 6th man to find someone clean...
Indeed. Although the way they are handling the penalty for the other cyclists seems sportsmanlike. What an awful thing to be in the press while they are racing.
Seems to me like all those guys got amnesty for their "evidence". Getting a 6 month ban "after the season" is a joke. So the other guys get "banned" during the off-season, then they are essentially cleared forever. If I was on one of the guys on those teams and was one of the guys who actually did dope, I would tell the USADA whatever they wanted to me to tell them about LA if it cleared me... What a joke!
Maybe we should wait for USADA to issue their own statement, confirming this one? Remember that a lot of media jump on any TdF story this time of year, to grab headlines.
If I were an independent arbiter I would not assign any value to coerced "evidence.". Although I think Lance is guilty, hearsay evidence from riders who were most likely threatened with heavy sanctions if they did not cooperate, and a sweetheart deal if they did, only impugns USADA.
"Vaughters and his backer Doug Ellis run a team based on ethics and sound business acumen but stretches both principles around an ethos of clean cycling. No needles, no outside doctors, no exceptions. Yet the team is a Mecca for riders in Vaughters' mould and from his generation. He, too, rode for Postal, with Armstrong, before turning towards another path.
Last year he told Cyclingnews: "This team, from the beginning, we said we would be very transparent about everything that happens on this team. At no point in time did I say I was going to disclose anything about my colourful past. I've made my point clear a multitude of times that with regards to the past and what happened ten years ago or more ago, my position has always been, and this is the position of the team in general, that if any anti-doping authority or cycling authority, WADA, USADA, UCI, federal investigators, has any questions regarding events that took place before Slipstream, anyone that's employed by Slipstream, especially myself, the obligation is to be 100 percent honest and transparent with those authorities. I take that at face value and we're going to live and die by that statement.
"Our point has always been to draw a line in the sand and say from this point forward this is how it's going to be and anyone who is looking to advance the procedures or the cause of anti-doping and any of those authorities need information on the past about any of us, no matter what that is or pain it is, then the obligation is to tell the whole truth." "
Plea deals are the only way to get people to cooperate. Otherwise it's simply self incrimination. Who would do that? Tyler and Floyd are done, so what's it to them? Hincapie spoke with the investigators a while ago and he's retiring.These guys still racing want to cooperate as it's in their best interests for cycling to be cleaned up. But they also want to continue making a living and so they're not going to just voluntarily pick up the phone and confess their sins from back in the day knowing they'd be sanctioned. Would you speak with the authorities knowing that as soon as you talked they could slap the cuffs on you (figuratively speaking)? Their lawyers have to get them some kind of protection. Or, alternatively, they can subpoena you and try to make you testify but without some deal you plead the fifth over and over- but that's not cooperation.
It's easy to question these guys' credibility and LA law will, and have. And they'll keep on saying show me the evidence- other than hearsay. But there's too much and too many now. LA has skated and denied and thrown a bunch of them under the bus along his merry way and meanwhile, these guys are hounded by the knucklehead prosecutors while trying to move on and make a clean buck.
I say slap an asterisk on the whole era and call it a day....err, era.
Kinda crazy that everyone is willing to turn states evidence just to get Lance. Whatever happened to Omertà? There is no honor among cycling thieves, I guess...
Comments
Accusations are one thing, getting a national ADA to investigate them is quite another. The mystifying thing here, of course, is these are the same accusations the US Atty felt could not be successfully prosecuted; what makes USADA think they've got a better chance?
WTC/Messick's decision is in line with his aggressive posture to create a thriving, growing business. WTC has been burned often in the recent past with decisions made, then rescinded in a whimsical fashion. Messick is providing some integrity and predicitability, which is more important over the long haul than any current influx of $$ d/t some ephemeral "Lance Factor".
Personally, I admit I will miss not getting to race with him this October, but that was never a reason to race or not race an IM for me. WTC seems to have been doing very well BEFORE it ever entered into a back scratching arrangement with Livestrong/et al, and can easily afford to abandon LA in favor of not being seen to be a podunk outfit. It's not about currying to the other pros, or seeking immediate $. It's about WTC/Messick's long-term vision. Good for them.
http://lavamagazine.com/news/ironman-upholds-armstrong-suspension/#axzz1y6n4Y69S
The WTC has a rule that they've applied to Lieto, Macca, Stadler, al Sultan, Wellington, Baadman, Reid, et al and so there's probably not much love lost for LA. This rule could never have contemplated a situation when a 7 time TdF winner got banned. But the rule is the rule and as I think I proposed before, WTC will end up looking good longer term for sticking to their guns.
2. The Novitske investigation was shelved and this left several of the attorneys and investigators involved in it livid. I believe the USADA has the file and plenty of evidence and it's time for LA to face the music. It's not a witch hunt or a vendetta. It's an agency doing their job. Others have been sanctioned and LA and Bruyneel can't be allowed to skate. No one wants to bring down an icon, especially not an icon that's done so much good through his charity. It's simply sad. And you can't simply drop a dime on a competitor and get them banned. It's got to be legit.
3. I can't get with the notion of Lance as victim. He's had every opportunity to reframe this, to come forward when he had (has?) so much public goodwill on his side and turn this all into a positive- for cycling and for sports in general. But he keeps on with the deny, deny, deny, strategy. He's content with being a comic book hero when he could be a Joseph Campbell hero. And he's clearly a very smart guy.
In LA's defense, his racing tri now has little to do with his alleged cheating past. I don't think he should be allowed to skate on the past when others have been sanctioned, but it seems like double jeopardy to keep him from racing tri. It's mostly irrelevant. But the sport needs to keep its image intact, WTC has a rule that's been a good rule until now and so LA gets the hook. If he's cleared he can race. Or, he can race anyway. Just not IM.
Full disclosure: I have a mancrush on Lance and think this whole ordeal is ridiculous. My bias is that the dude never 'failed' a test so he is at a minimum less dirty than everyone else he was competing against for all those yrs.
But... I have a question for someone who actually knows the minutiae of the WTC rulebook. If say 15 yrs ago he actually failed one of those tests for full on steroids or something. Or more likely, on the morning of a TDF mountain stage back then, the drug testing officials knocked on his hotel room door and found him hooked up to an IV bag getting a plasma and red blood cell infusion and he was banned from cycling for a couple of yrs, then was allowed back in eventually and went on to be a 4 time TDF winner, then retired for a few yrs, then got into triathlon. My question is would there be a lifetime ban for triathlon? If you ever failed a test of some agency's rules, can you never compete in triathlon? Or is he simply banned because he is 'under investigation'. Let's say the USADA decides tomorrow that LA definitively blood doped 14 yrs ago and they strip his 7 TDF wins, does that mean he is then free to compete at WTC events? Or do the WTC rules say that if he was caught blood doping many yrs ago that he cannot compete? If that is the case, I guess Barry Bonds better not take up triathlon as a hobby... Or should I say Jose Canseco...
I think WTC as an organization that takes a lot of flack for its profit motive, actually did the right thing by sticking to the rule book that was agreed to before the season began. It would have been good from the mancrush perspective to see what would have happened. The hollywood version of the story is quite good.
I am frankly relieved, it has been harder and harder to get into IMs, lance being involved with a life TV feed of the last 2 hours of Kona would probably make it as easy to get into an IM as it is to get front row seats to a springsteen concert via ticketmaster....
Doesn't sound like the rule he is falling under was the WTC's "intent" for that rule anyways...
Still curious to know if any has any insight on my question: See above, but cliff notes version "would he be banned if he actually failed a test 15 yrs ago and this was in the past, or is it because he is simply 'under investigation' "?
The answer to your question isn't exactly easy to answer because there are a lot of moving parts.
There is a statute of limitations (8 yrs) under which actions have to be taken.
However, if he received a lifetime ban from WADA, that would apply to WTC/USAT as well as Pro Cycling.
Hey RnP, there is a new coaching market for you! and a HUGE one! adapt the plans to being Marriage helpers!
Yeah. It's a shame that all of those B12 injections may keep The Rocket out of the Hall of Fame.
Meanwhile, OJ is still searching for the real killer.............
I'm just pissed that PnI have sunk all of this cash into changing EN to ENStrong, designing black and yellow kits, putting Dr Ferrari on the payroll....
Rev3: Lance Armstrong Welcome At Our Events
triathlon.competitor.com/2012/06/ne...ents_55929
http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2012/06/what-a-mess/
Sad.
"Vaughters and his backer Doug Ellis run a team based on ethics and sound business acumen but stretches both principles around an ethos of clean cycling. No needles, no outside doctors, no exceptions. Yet the team is a Mecca for riders in Vaughters' mould and from his generation. He, too, rode for Postal, with Armstrong, before turning towards another path.
Last year he told Cyclingnews: "This team, from the beginning, we said we would be very transparent about everything that happens on this team. At no point in time did I say I was going to disclose anything about my colourful past. I've made my point clear a multitude of times that with regards to the past and what happened ten years ago or more ago, my position has always been, and this is the position of the team in general, that if any anti-doping authority or cycling authority, WADA, USADA, UCI, federal investigators, has any questions regarding events that took place before Slipstream, anyone that's employed by Slipstream, especially myself, the obligation is to be 100 percent honest and transparent with those authorities. I take that at face value and we're going to live and die by that statement.
"Our point has always been to draw a line in the sand and say from this point forward this is how it's going to be and anyone who is looking to advance the procedures or the cause of anti-doping and any of those authorities need information on the past about any of us, no matter what that is or pain it is, then the obligation is to tell the whole truth." "
Plea deals are the only way to get people to cooperate. Otherwise it's simply self incrimination. Who would do that? Tyler and Floyd are done, so what's it to them? Hincapie spoke with the investigators a while ago and he's retiring.These guys still racing want to cooperate as it's in their best interests for cycling to be cleaned up. But they also want to continue making a living and so they're not going to just voluntarily pick up the phone and confess their sins from back in the day knowing they'd be sanctioned. Would you speak with the authorities knowing that as soon as you talked they could slap the cuffs on you (figuratively speaking)? Their lawyers have to get them some kind of protection. Or, alternatively, they can subpoena you and try to make you testify but without some deal you plead the fifth over and over- but that's not cooperation.
It's easy to question these guys' credibility and LA law will, and have. And they'll keep on saying show me the evidence- other than hearsay. But there's too much and too many now. LA has skated and denied and thrown a bunch of them under the bus along his merry way and meanwhile, these guys are hounded by the knucklehead prosecutors while trying to move on and make a clean buck.
I say slap an asterisk on the whole era and call it a day....err, era.
A last ditch effort to see information come out?
uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/armstro...07635.html