End of Life on WKO+? and Garmin 910xt issues?
I just read Jeff Bs thread on the issues he is having with the new Garmin 910XT.
that thread points to a ST thread on the same issue. In that thread, i saw a comment on Training Peaks "end of lifing" WKO+.
so, given these issues the 910 (which i just received) and the issue of WKO+ not being supported any more (True or false?)
what is the best alternative? Training Peaks website in the pay upgrade version? Garmin connect? both?
will Garmin Connect have a real power solution soon? if ever?
what is the easiest way to get all of my historical data saved on my PC (which i should backup) onto TPs web based version?
what is the best way to get your garmin info from the 910 into TPs online version? the ST Thread speaks of loading into Garmin Connect first, then exporting a file to upload to TP, seems very laborious.
any thoughts, suggestions, insight?
might it just be easier to return the 910 and stick with the 310?
Comments
@Scott, Jeff and I have been working with TP customer support over the last week. Be advised that we are NOT having power issues, just pace issues. I finally received an email from TP that said the 910 is being read by WKO as the "instantaneous pace" and the 310 uses the algorithm of "distance/time" to calculate pace. So, my theory is...Garmin knows they have an "instantaneous pace" issue in which they attempted to fix in 2.4 firmware. However, according to the Garmin Forums it is still not quite correct and the Garmin people on the forums have recognized that. It could be fixed with the net firmware release, but it may not. I think the takeaway here is that WKO will not be updated to correct this issue with the 910. They have made that abundantly clear to Jeff and I.
Interestingly, TrainingPeaks, both free and premium, calculates the 910 data correctly....even after it is run through WKO. Wheather you upload the Garmin .tcx or WKO .wko file, one gets the correct calculated paces. Doesn't really make sense to me why that code in TP cannot be added to WKO, but it seems "too laborious" for them.
Long term solution to me is exactly what you alluded to...I am going to use Garmin Ant Agent to download my data to: 1) Garmin Training Center (now I have a copy stored on my computer for both power and pace) along with automatically uploading to Garmin Connect so I have it in a cloud and 2) Upgrade to TP Premium at some point to get accurate calculations (ie. TSS, PMC's, etc.). So essentially, I will be using the "laborious" upload to both to make sure I have accuracy and back-up.
Nonetheless, this is been very, very frustrating.
Yes Scott, it seems to work GREAT as a head unit for ANT+ PM as my wattage results were exactly same to the watt after a full century ride.
I too will be upgrading EVENTUALLY to TP premium but I'm not very happy about it. I liked using WKO+ and paid for the software. Not very pleased they are killing it basically.
1 - upload workout files to WKO+
2 - upload workout files to Garmin Connect (data saved to the cloud)
3 - upload my stored wko+ files to TP?
Ok, thanks. rich@endurancenation.us
Thx Rich
@Scott I haven't tried this yet either. Geo, have you tried this yet? Can you explain the process step by laborious step? Thx
you have to have a login for trainingpeaks
you have to set that account up in the device manager under options
you then select that account as the upload destination(username)
also select device as "training peaks WKO+"
this will find all your WKO files in your computer file, make sure it is pointed as you as the athlete and not "athlete joe"
then you upload... doing that now, will report shortly if they all came in properly as runs or bikes
In the past, I had noticed that WKO did not give average pace as distance/time. Instead it used some kind of rolling average algorithm involving the instantaneous pace measurements for a given interval, or something like that. I saw that a year or two ago in the training peaks forums.
Now with the 910xt with foodpod, here is what I have noticed:
1. WKO uses the algorithm described above.
2. The Training Peaks reports page for a given run uses the algorithm described above.
3. The Training Peaks map/graph screen uses distance/time.
4. Garmin Connect uses distance/time.
I wonder if the algorithm in WKO to calculate average pace is a holdover from when the software was just for cycling, or if there is some benefit to calculating average pace this way - some kind of "Normalized Pace"?
@Scott and Jeff, if you go to the "Calendar" tab in WKO, then right-click on the workout...one of the options is to "Upload to TrainingPeaks.com." It literally takes seconds for the upload.
I do the Ant Agent stuff first since its automatic and I grab something to drink. Furthermore, as long as Ant Agent runs, I've got unadulterated data stored in 2 separate places (hard drive and cloud)...then I play with WKO. Just my system...
@All, to clarify...
I did not mean to imply that my emails (and other information) from TP is to suggest that *support* for WKO will be ending. What I am stating is that I do not think we will see a UPDATES to the software. Which is to say I do not think there will be a new version of WKO+ (ie. 4.0, etc.) or a new build (ie. 49). The Peaksware development team is focused on making Premium TP as good, if not better, than WKO. A business decision for a subscription service.
Sorry, if I mis-led anyone.
A lifetime of monthly credit card charges!!! Subscription-based revenue models are all the rage nowadays!
This from an email exchange I just had with Hunter Allen and Gear Fisher, TP head guy:
+++++++
While we have not recently added any new features to WKO, we continue to add device support to it via Device Agent, we support it every day for computer moves, data issues, device problems, file syncing etc. and we sell a lot of copies of WKO+ every day. We are not end-of-lifeing the product. That said, as I have posted on our blog and mentioned a few times, we are focused on moving WKO+ features to the web and mobile.
Today, we now have PMC, segment editing (marking up ranges in WKO+), Fitness History (WKO Summary chart), Power Zones, TSS charts, and coming soon (weeks) is full file editing ("123 mode" in WKO+) and a PMC planning tool for modeling your PMC in the future and building plans and schedules using TSS that export to devices. We are also developing on the web with features like swimTSS, runTSS, left/right power etc., and those features may or may not make it into WKO+. It all works on Mac and PC too. Of course, we are working on porting all of TrainingPeaks to HTML5, with some major features coming soon that will demonstrate our HTML5 commitment.
WKO+ is still a killer analysis tool for people that like to have the data on their own computers, and it syncs to TrainingPeaks.com for data backup and sharing.
We will continue to support and sell WKO+.
Ultimately, we are more concerned about making sure TrainingPeaks is relevant for mobile/tablet/web than we are for desktop, so lets just say, that is where we are choosing to focus our limited resources in terms of new features and capabilities. As Mr. Gretzky said "Skate to where the puck will be".
Regards,
Gear
That's dead on Scott! Bingo!
I asked the question on Wattage earlier today and that's the same answer Gear replied with. So it seems there is no immediate danger of WKO+ dying although they likely won't be doing much new development. That's fine with me really - it does what I need and I much prefer the desktop route to being tied to an online service.
so in assumption that TP will do nothing to solve the 910XT issue, can we assume that anything will get fixed on the 910XT with future firmware updates from Garmin? Or are we best to just continue with the 310XT? and not have the swim functionality that the 910 brings into play (which is why i bot it)
When you step back and think about it, desktop software really is sort of 'subscription based' anyway -- the money you spend to buy the software only lets you use the product effectively for as long as the company supports AND updates it for free. Eventurally you get to a point where even if the product is supported, the feature set is no longer as robust as you may want/need it and you need to upgrade (if there is an upgrade...in the case of WKO, probably never) or move on to another product that you'll have to pay for. For anyone with a 910xt it seems that point may have come. We can all argue about "how many months do you get for your$ spent", but that is not the point.
Btw, for those paranoid about losing data in the cloud (as I am), you probably back up your TCX files in a billion places already.
Just my $0.02.
Matt is of course correct that a conventional upfront purchase model for software is not always that much different from a subscription based model. Developing software is expensive and you can not reasonably expect a company to continuously fund new feature development to an existing product for free. Significant feature development is often funded by rolling changes into a major rev of the software and charging an upgrade fee, as we saw with WKO v2 to WKO 3.0. So in essence, you were re-upping on your subscription in lump-sums in some way.
Now, you can start splitting hairs about the definition of "end of life" as it pertains to software, and while technically WKO+ is not dead as long as it is continued to be sold and supported, the apparent end of new development makes it essentially dead to me. I also completely understand why TP wants to go to the subscription based model because no matter how you try to frame it, it is far more profitable. At $120 a year for the cheapest subscription plan, you are basically paying full retail for a whole new copy of WKO+ every year, significantly more than they could coerce out of standalone software users in upgrade fees over the same duration.
So bottom line, I understand TP's rationale but that doesn't mean I support it. I'm phasing out of WKO and I do not plan on going to TP.com when there are alternative (RaceDay), free (GoldenCheetah) and free/emerging (Garmin TC/ Garmin Connect) competitors that already are or are moving in the direction of offering the same functionality that WKO used to have the monopoly on. That's basically what it comes down to me, if TP/WKO had a monopoly on these features and they pulled this, I'd be a lot more justified in my outrage. But they're not the only show in town anymore, so I'm putting my money where my mouth is and hitting the road.
Agreed on Garmin Connect, it is by no means currently a viable competitor to WKO/TP. However with NP, IF, TSS and Max 20' power now showing up online for my uploaded rides, it is certainly a step closer. Very handy for quick reference but of limited utility without anything akin to the PMC, a feature that I agree Garmin is not likely to add.
PhysFarm's RaceDay and Golden Cheetah on the other hand do offer comparative performance manager functionality, with Golden Cheetah offering pretty comparable features to WKO+ in free open-source software.
Of course, you get what you pay for to a certain extent and given the choice I still prefer WKO/TP... I just don't prefer it $120/year more. We'll see though, I do recognize that in comparison to everything else I spend on this sport, $120 is a pretty much a drop in the bucket.