Might be worth R&P looking into TP.com as a provider for Team training and nutrition logs as well as access to all of the Premium bells and whistles. A coaching account can add unlimited clients with Premium accounts for $9/month and I bet they'd be willing to cut a nice bulk discount when we knock on the door with 400+ members. Obviously it starts adding up per month per athlete but considering it's something that requires no technical support from EN staff it could be a pretty valuable solution with a lot of value, especially as the features continue to grow while they focus on developing the online aspect and turn their attention away from WKO+. Could be a good partnership.
Don't see this happening. RnP have spent good money developing the current system we have. And Rich isn't one to spend money lightly
Though I do have to agree that having all of that workout/race data available would be mighty powerful when it comes to research.
Translation from PR speak to English of Training Peaks Statement
While we have not recently added any new features to WKO, we continue to add device support to it via Device Agent, we support it every day for computer moves, data issues, device problems, file syncing etc. and we sell a lot of copies of WKO+ every day. We are not end-of-lifeing the product. That said, as I have posted on our blog and mentioned a few times, we are focused on moving WKO+ features to the web and mobile.
We'll reluctantly add only new devices to WKO+ as necessitated. At this point we're not really not interested in developing non-subscription based products anymore.
Today, we now have PMC, segment editing (marking up ranges in WKO+), Fitness History (WKO Summary chart), Power Zones, TSS charts, and coming soon (weeks) is full file editing ("123 mode" in WKO+) and a PMC planning tool for modeling your PMC in the future and building plans and schedules using TSS that export to devices. We are also developing on the web with features like swimTSS, runTSS, left/right power etc., and those features may or may not make it into WKO+. It all works on Mac and PC too. Of course, we are working on porting all of TrainingPeaks to HTML5, with some major features coming soon that will demonstrate our HTML5 commitment.
Did I mention our subscription based product? Oh yeah, we invested in a dying technology (Adobe Flash) and lots of people with iPads want to give us money via our subscription based product, so we're moving the subscription based platform to HTML5 real-soon-now™.
WKO+ is still a killer analysis tool for people that like to have the data on their own computers, and it syncs to TrainingPeaks.com for data backup and sharing.
Our desktop product that we're not actively developing works with our subscription based product.
We will continue to support and sell WKO+.
We'll still take your money for a product we're not actively developing.
Ultimately, we are more concerned about making sure TrainingPeaks is relevant for mobile/tablet/web than we are for desktop, so lets just say, that is where we are choosing to focus our limited resources in terms of new features and capabilities. As Mr. Gretzky said "Skate to where the puck will be".
Wow, Apple really sold a lot of iPads, we need to get moving on this HTML5 thing if we want to take people's money with our subscription based product. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any new features for WKO+. As the Harvard Business Review said "Skate to where the Money will be."
Might be worth R&P looking into TP.com as a provider for Team training and nutrition logs as well as access to all of the Premium bells and whistles. A coaching account can add unlimited clients with Premium accounts for $9/month and I bet they'd be willing to cut a nice bulk discount when we knock on the door with 400+ members. Obviously it starts adding up per month per athlete but considering it's something that requires no technical support from EN staff it could be a pretty valuable solution with a lot of value, especially as the features continue to grow while they focus on developing the online aspect and turn their attention away from WKO+. Could be a good partnership.
I have suggested this as well. It is an interesting idea but I believe the economics are challenging and I suspect TP's incentives here are not as strong as we might think. If I were R'nP I would look at it pretty closely. Being able to access your athletes' data opens up a lot of opportunities to add value.
Don't see this happening. RnP have spent good money developing the current system we have. And Rich isn't one to spend money lightly
Though I do have to agree that having all of that workout/race data available would be mighty powerful when it comes to research.
Maybe I'm just missing it but where are the training and nutrition logs here on EN? TP wouldn't replace anything from what R&P have developed...it would add to it without investing significantly in development, maintenance, and support. We are very data heavy here - HR, pace, power - yet aside from the data tool to generate training zones have no features to support all of this data generation and analysis. So maybe include it as an additional option for members that want those features and charge the extra $5/month for it or simply view the saved expense of all the time investment that isn't necessary as a fair price to pay for providing the members useful new features and continuing to grow what EN has to offer.
Having played with Trainer Road for two weeks now in the EN TR hack, AND if the TR guys were to add a diary function (ala TSS, NP, PMC) and create some EN/triathlon specific workouts, I would willingly add $10/month to my EN subscription.
You already get TSS and NP for each workout. Anything like a PMC would require all of your workouts be loaded, not just trainer rides. I don't know that the TR guys are interested in expanding to a training log service and having to compete with WKO+, TP.com, GTC, etc.
If it's still going to be $10/month I'd prefer to pay it directly to TR.
Don't see this happening. RnP have spent good money developing the current system we have. And Rich isn't one to spend money lightly
Though I do have to agree that having all of that workout/race data available would be mighty powerful when it comes to research.
Maybe I'm just missing it but where are the training and nutrition logs here on EN? TP wouldn't replace anything from what R&P have developed...it would add to it without investing significantly in development, maintenance, and support. We are very data heavy here - HR, pace, power - yet aside from the data tool to generate training zones have no features to support all of this data generation and analysis. So maybe include it as an additional option for members that want those features and charge the extra $5/month for it or simply view the saved expense of all the time investment that isn't necessary as a fair price to pay for providing the members useful new features and continuing to grow what EN has to offer.
Of course there are no training and nutrition logs here in EN. My point is that if RnP wanted to go the TP route with anything, they would have done that from the start. They would not have sunk lots of money into building the whole infrastructure in which they deliver the current plans when they could have just used TP for that for free.
I do not discount the value in all that data collection housed in one place, but let's be honest, who really is going to look at it?
You don't keep a training log and use it to evaluate your past training metrics, seasons, history? Most of us look at our own data and I bet aggregating it cross the team would provide some interesting insights to R&P and the data heads among us. I'm not suggesting TP be used to deliver training plans - that's what the current infrastructure supports. I was just suggesting it might be efficient to add additional features by taking advantage of the investments TP has made instead of reinventing the wheel, especially with the apparent focus moving from developing WKO+ to migrating tools and features over to TP. Just seems like a relatively small investment for a lot of potential return in terms of features and capabilities.
Please don't think that I have an issue with subscription based products. I've been an EN online member since Nov of 2009 and I think what R&P offer is well worth it. R&P also offer a non-subscription based product in the form of training plans. Their customers choose what's right for them. R&P support, stand behind and constantly improve both versions of their product.
Nate and Reid at trainerroad.com have something really good going on. They're two guys that saw something that they both wanted for themselves and thought others might like it too. They something work and it took off. You can tell they both have a passion for what they're doing. They're also small and agile enough to turn on a dime, add new features and chose the right partnerships.
Trainingpeaks seems to have lost their way in terms of guys with a passion making a business out of something. They're much more corporate and have too much momentum to make sudden changes. And please don't get me wrong, I have no issue with TP doing what it needs to do to (having a profitable company). But their goals for their product line and what I want from them seem to be heading in different directions. If TP's online product was everything I wanted and more and made me forget that there even was a WKO+, none of us would be having this discussion.
Nate and Reid at trainerroad.com have something really good going on. They're two guys that saw something that they both wanted for themselves and thought others might like it too. They something work and it took off. You can tell they both have a passion for what they're doing. They're also small and agile enough to turn on a dime, add new features and chose the right partnerships.
I agree completely. I dropped a few suggestions to the support email at TR last week and the enxt day both Nate and Reid replied to me to discuss ideas - no corporate position or boilerplate "thanks for your interest in our product" response.
@Joel, yes I do keep my data. I full well know what can be done with all that data, just don't see RnP in that game. IMHO the data tool isn't much of a data tool. I can calculate my own zones and remember them.
As for TR, it's great. The guys are really nice and responsive. A few buds and I have done some group rides with them. Over Google+ that is. I wish them nothing but success. But you better watch out, if they get too big Training Peaks will buy them!
IMO...almost every business starts out as a great idea with passion, then becomes a business where there's more process than progress, then they all become a racquet. Whether they survive as a racquet, is up to them.
Any way you look at it, good products with constant innovation, regardless of the space they're in, will thrive.
@Joel, yes I do keep my data. I full well know what can be done with all that data, just don't see RnP in that game. IMHO the data tool isn't much of a data tool. I can calculate my own zones and remember them.
And that's exactly my point. R&P don't have to get into that game - they partner with others who alredy have it going. Aside from creating a more full-featured offering for the TEAM within EN, we'd also have the huge resource of massive data collection. We already do this in a much more primitive way through hack groups and such and that is what has led to most of the evolution of the training plans over the years. Anyway, I'm not trying to have a debate but you've been missing the point of my original comment. You keep your data, and most everyone else keeps their data too. WKO+ will slowly fade away or at least become antiquated while TP will continue to evolve. If we think proactively we can lay the groundwork to transition how/where we all keep our data, provide additional features for the Team , and create a powerful resource for learning. I much prefer WKO+ to TP but Gear said it himself and I'm not one to stick my head in the sand and ignore the inevitable. Evolve or perish.
I realize I'm WAY beyind the scope of the intended conversation, but I cannot resist.
We all need to understand the complexity of scaling "passion" as a business grows. It seems from reading posts that many people want the founders of trainerroad to be successful and admire their passion. But we cannot expect the CEOs to reply to every customer within 12 hours when the business is 5x, 10x, 50x or 500x its size. They will have to develop processes for their service. If 5 years from now the CEOs of trainerroad are still replying to every customer email very quickly then I suspect the business has not flourished in the way they wanted or expected. Maybe TP did not do a good job of scaling their service...or maybe they just did an average job...I don't know. Is Gear at TP passionate about what his company does or do you think he wants to rip everyone off? Maybe he is passionate but just hasn't executed well. And yes, he probably does want to make money...but making money (and the desire to make money) ought not to be at odds with being passionate about delivering value to your customers and leaving your mark on a particular space.
By the way, we could easily have the conversation about passion, scalability, and customer product and service offerings in the EN context, but let's not go there for the moment.
You can still be a giant corporate entity and put out a great product, which is really what we're talking about here. As I said above if their online product was so awesome, it made me forget about their desktop product, then I'd move happily.
Look at Apple the largest company in the word (by market cap):
Q: What are your goals when setting out to build a new product?
A: Our goals are very simple — to design and make better products. If we can’t make something that is better, we won’t do it.
Translation - we need to keep pumping out minor incremental updates to products so that all the iLemmings continue to replace their perfectly good phone/pod/pad and we get richer.
I've been moving more to the online TP product. I only use WKO+ at all because a) I'm used to it, and b) the current TP interface for iPad/iPhone sucks due to the Flash requirement.
I like TP online. It has way more features than WKO+, it's accessible from anywhere you can get wireless or 3G/4G connection and I don't have to manually back-up my workout data. If they improve the iPhone/iPad interface, I will stop using WKO+ altogether. The Holy Grail would be full iPad access, a food logging/reporting interface as easy as LoseIt! and a way to upload training data from my iPad/iPhone. For me, I WANT them focusing on exactly what they're doing, because that's where I want the product to go.
I have a Wahoo. I like it for running 2 hours or less, although the distances vary significantly from my Garmin. The iPhone is simply WAY too big to be legitimate cycling computer. And the battery doesn't last long enough for rides over 2.5 hours.
I pointed it as as a means to upload your data to TP through your iPhone/iPad from an ANT+ device. Several Garmin Forerunner units work currently and the Edge 500/800 could be enabled if garmin hears a strong enough voice from the users - it has the necessary hardware for wireless ANT+ data transission.
I like TP online. It has way more features than WKO+, it's accessible from anywhere you can get wireless or 3G/4G connection and I don't have to manually back-up my workout data. If they improve the iPhone/iPad interface, I will stop using WKO+ altogether. The Holy Grail would be full iPad access, a food logging/reporting interface as easy as LoseIt! and a way to upload training data from my iPad/iPhone. For me, I WANT them focusing on exactly what they're doing, because that's where I want the product to go.
Well said, I couldn't agree more. The only difference is that I stopped using WKO+ entirely as of this year. Now that food "favorites" are easily avaialble on the iphone interface that has improved the mobile functionality substantially. But as you said, there is a ways to go there.
@Joel: That's a good point. With Garmin bike computers and watches now slated to support TSS/NP, it may be more of an incentive to dump the Joule.... Hmmm.
@Matt: I haven't looked at the food thing on TP in a while. May have to check it out again.
I have decided to move away from Mr. Gates and the pc environment to Apple; i.e. MacBook Pro, iPad etc. After considering making the move for a while, reading the Steve Jobs bio helped me cement the decison.
So after a number of years with WKO+, I moved to Training Peaks as well. I must say that my experience so far with TP has been very good. I emailed them for procedures to upload all my years of WKO+ data, they responded within a couple of hours, and the process worked flawlessly.
Although viewing TP on the iPad is a bit sparse, it really is an elegant solution and the move takes me away from the desktop environment so that I am no longer locked into a single pc.
Comments
Don't see this happening. RnP have spent good money developing the current system we have. And Rich isn't one to spend money lightly
Though I do have to agree that having all of that workout/race data available would be mighty powerful when it comes to research.
Translation from PR speak to English of Training Peaks Statement
While we have not recently added any new features to WKO, we continue to add device support to it via Device Agent, we support it every day for computer moves, data issues, device problems, file syncing etc. and we sell a lot of copies of WKO+ every day. We are not end-of-lifeing the product. That said, as I have posted on our blog and mentioned a few times, we are focused on moving WKO+ features to the web and mobile.
Today, we now have PMC, segment editing (marking up ranges in WKO+), Fitness History (WKO Summary chart), Power Zones, TSS charts, and coming soon (weeks) is full file editing ("123 mode" in WKO+) and a PMC planning tool for modeling your PMC in the future and building plans and schedules using TSS that export to devices. We are also developing on the web with features like swimTSS, runTSS, left/right power etc., and those features may or may not make it into WKO+. It all works on Mac and PC too. Of course, we are working on porting all of TrainingPeaks to HTML5, with some major features coming soon that will demonstrate our HTML5 commitment.
WKO+ is still a killer analysis tool for people that like to have the data on their own computers, and it syncs to TrainingPeaks.com for data backup and sharing.
We will continue to support and sell WKO+.
Ultimately, we are more concerned about making sure TrainingPeaks is relevant for mobile/tablet/web than we are for desktop, so lets just say, that is where we are choosing to focus our limited resources in terms of new features and capabilities. As Mr. Gretzky said "Skate to where the puck will be".
Regards,
Gear
I have suggested this as well. It is an interesting idea but I believe the economics are challenging and I suspect TP's incentives here are not as strong as we might think. If I were R'nP I would look at it pretty closely. Being able to access your athletes' data opens up a lot of opportunities to add value.
Maybe I'm just missing it but where are the training and nutrition logs here on EN? TP wouldn't replace anything from what R&P have developed...it would add to it without investing significantly in development, maintenance, and support. We are very data heavy here - HR, pace, power - yet aside from the data tool to generate training zones have no features to support all of this data generation and analysis. So maybe include it as an additional option for members that want those features and charge the extra $5/month for it or simply view the saved expense of all the time investment that isn't necessary as a fair price to pay for providing the members useful new features and continuing to grow what EN has to offer.
If it's still going to be $10/month I'd prefer to pay it directly to TR.
Of course there are no training and nutrition logs here in EN. My point is that if RnP wanted to go the TP route with anything, they would have done that from the start. They would not have sunk lots of money into building the whole infrastructure in which they deliver the current plans when they could have just used TP for that for free.
I do not discount the value in all that data collection housed in one place, but let's be honest, who really is going to look at it?
@Cary Yep, u nailed it.
Re: my earlier post ...
Please don't think that I have an issue with subscription based products. I've been an EN online member since Nov of 2009 and I think what R&P offer is well worth it. R&P also offer a non-subscription based product in the form of training plans. Their customers choose what's right for them. R&P support, stand behind and constantly improve both versions of their product.
Nate and Reid at trainerroad.com have something really good going on. They're two guys that saw something that they both wanted for themselves and thought others might like it too. They something work and it took off. You can tell they both have a passion for what they're doing. They're also small and agile enough to turn on a dime, add new features and chose the right partnerships.
Trainingpeaks seems to have lost their way in terms of guys with a passion making a business out of something. They're much more corporate and have too much momentum to make sudden changes. And please don't get me wrong, I have no issue with TP doing what it needs to do to (having a profitable company). But their goals for their product line and what I want from them seem to be heading in different directions. If TP's online product was everything I wanted and more and made me forget that there even was a WKO+, none of us would be having this discussion.
I agree completely. I dropped a few suggestions to the support email at TR last week and the enxt day both Nate and Reid replied to me to discuss ideas - no corporate position or boilerplate "thanks for your interest in our product" response.
As for TR, it's great. The guys are really nice and responsive. A few buds and I have done some group rides with them. Over Google+ that is. I wish them nothing but success. But you better watch out, if they get too big Training Peaks will buy them!
Any way you look at it, good products with constant innovation, regardless of the space they're in, will thrive.
And that's exactly my point. R&P don't have to get into that game - they partner with others who alredy have it going. Aside from creating a more full-featured offering for the TEAM within EN, we'd also have the huge resource of massive data collection. We already do this in a much more primitive way through hack groups and such and that is what has led to most of the evolution of the training plans over the years. Anyway, I'm not trying to have a debate but you've been missing the point of my original comment. You keep your data, and most everyone else keeps their data too. WKO+ will slowly fade away or at least become antiquated while TP will continue to evolve. If we think proactively we can lay the groundwork to transition how/where we all keep our data, provide additional features for the Team , and create a powerful resource for learning. I much prefer WKO+ to TP but Gear said it himself and I'm not one to stick my head in the sand and ignore the inevitable. Evolve or perish.
I realize I'm WAY beyind the scope of the intended conversation, but I cannot resist.
We all need to understand the complexity of scaling "passion" as a business grows. It seems from reading posts that many people want the founders of trainerroad to be successful and admire their passion. But we cannot expect the CEOs to reply to every customer within 12 hours when the business is 5x, 10x, 50x or 500x its size. They will have to develop processes for their service. If 5 years from now the CEOs of trainerroad are still replying to every customer email very quickly then I suspect the business has not flourished in the way they wanted or expected. Maybe TP did not do a good job of scaling their service...or maybe they just did an average job...I don't know. Is Gear at TP passionate about what his company does or do you think he wants to rip everyone off? Maybe he is passionate but just hasn't executed well. And yes, he probably does want to make money...but making money (and the desire to make money) ought not to be at odds with being passionate about delivering value to your customers and leaving your mark on a particular space.
By the way, we could easily have the conversation about passion, scalability, and customer product and service offerings in the EN context, but let's not go there for the moment.
Look at Apple the largest company in the word (by market cap):
The London Evening Standard - Interview With Jonathan Ive: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/sir-jonathan-ive-the-iman-cometh-7562170.html
Q: What are your goals when setting out to build a new product?
A: Our goals are very simple — to design and make better products. If we can’t make something that is better, we won’t do it.
Translation - we need to keep pumping out minor incremental updates to products so that all the iLemmings continue to replace their perfectly good phone/pod/pad and we get richer.
I like TP online. It has way more features than WKO+, it's accessible from anywhere you can get wireless or 3G/4G connection and I don't have to manually back-up my workout data. If they improve the iPhone/iPad interface, I will stop using WKO+ altogether. The Holy Grail would be full iPad access, a food logging/reporting interface as easy as LoseIt! and a way to upload training data from my iPad/iPhone. For me, I WANT them focusing on exactly what they're doing, because that's where I want the product to go.
But you might want to check this out - http://www.wahoofitness.com/Products/Wahoo-Fitness-Wahoo-Key-for-iPhone.asp
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2011/05/inside-look-at-downloading-fr310xt.html
Well said, I couldn't agree more. The only difference is that I stopped using WKO+ entirely as of this year. Now that food "favorites" are easily avaialble on the iphone interface that has improved the mobile functionality substantially. But as you said, there is a ways to go there.
@Matt: I haven't looked at the food thing on TP in a while. May have to check it out again.
I have decided to move away from Mr. Gates and the pc environment to Apple; i.e. MacBook Pro, iPad etc. After considering making the move for a while, reading the Steve Jobs bio helped me cement the decison.
So after a number of years with WKO+, I moved to Training Peaks as well. I must say that my experience so far with TP has been very good. I emailed them for procedures to upload all my years of WKO+ data, they responded within a couple of hours, and the process worked flawlessly.
Although viewing TP on the iPad is a bit sparse, it really is an elegant solution and the move takes me away from the desktop environment so that I am no longer locked into a single pc.
I like things so far.
Interesting blog post from the TP folks re the development of WKO + 4. Native Mac version in the works!
http://blog.trainingpeaks.com/posts/2012/9/18/gears-thoughts-its-grow-time.html