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Marathon Pacing for a Newbie

 Question regarding pacing for first time marathon runner.  According to my vdot score I should run the marathon at an average pace of 7:24 minutes/mile.  EN execution calls for miles 1-5 add 15 seconds to pace and miles 6-20 subtract 5 seconds from pace. 21-26.2 finish with everything you have left.  My thought as a first time runner maybe adjusting pace to 7:45 min/mile and executing as per EN plan.  Goal is to finish in under 3:30.  Thoughts?

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Comments

  • Calling Coach Patrick, calling Coach Patrick
  • Obviously either pace will get you to your goal. I think it depends on how you are feeling on your training runs with the prescribed vdot paces. If you feel comfortable on your long runs with a pace that corresponds to the vdot, I say go for it. If it is a hilly course, or weather not good, you can always fall back to your more conservative pace. And the EN execution plan you have laid out is the way to go with either pace. Start conservative and turn up the gas as you see fit. With either pace you have a PR for sure image
  • @Rob. Thanks for the advice. not sure if Vdot paces will work because long runs are never done at consistent pace. Start out Z1 sometimes go to Z2 or Z3 with some Z4 mixed in for good measure. Just depends on what the plan calls for. I would be tempted to go out using the 7:24 as a guide pace but hate to find out its to much. On the other hand hate to go out to slow and try to make up time at the end (not sure that ever works). Having never run a marathon not sure what to expect. Doing a RR this weekend and will test the 7:24 pace and see how it feels.
  • @ John, are you familier with the Yasso 800 method as a race predictor? Some swear by it, others insist it estimates finish times by 5 to 10 minutes too fast.

    I've done it several times and found it fairly predictive of a excellent preformance where everything just seems to click. On a bad day, not so much.

    Its easy to do and you can fit it in as one of your remaning speed work sessions. The protocol is to do a WU then run 10x800 with equal time recoveries between at your goal finish time in MM:SS instead of HH:MM. So if you think you can run a 3:25:00 marathon, do the 10x800 at 0:03:25 for each 800 and recover running easy for 0:03:25. If you can hold the pace for all 10 repeats, it indicates you could run it on a good day.

    Me, I like running 800 repeats for speed work anyway, they're fun. Except I dont actually time my recoveries - I do a lap (400) at what ever pace I need then head straight into the next 800. For me it seems easier to "go" when I get to a start line and I pretend I'm doing it right.
  • I think that some sort of RR should get done for a mary.
    I have done 6 in the past few years. That used to be my thing prior to EN. But I have never run one "well" relative to my vdot. I have never even came within 1min/mi of my vdot suggested marathon pace.
    13.1's, yes but not the full 26.2. I have also never been able to get close to my yasso times either.
    I might just be built for shorter races though.

    As far as what to expect, expect it to get tough around 18mi in (sorry to state the obvious. I just read what I wrote and it seems alsot silly but it is true).
    I have always experience pretty meaningful cardiac drift as well.
    In my experience, going out a little too hard or a little too easy didnt end up impacting my overall time much. It just brought the suck on sooner or pushed it out later if that makes any sense.

    Good luck John!
  • @Steve. With the Yasso method, I assume you also have look at RPE etc during 800s. Pretty sure could run 10x800 at sub 3:25 but not sure how physically taxing it would be. What the hell maybe I'll give it a try tonight
  • Yasso 800's are generally a good predictor for a majority of people when racing a relatively flat marathon; however, if in doubt,error on the side of going out too slow. Taking gels/shot blocks too late in the race can also greatly effect sustainability at pace. This year I've had the groups that I paced, start taking the shot blocks by mile 3 and gels by mile six.
  • @jimmy thanks for the info. BTW are you doing IM Texas? Tina. Course is flat and have been working on nutrition with long runs. Thanks everyone for the advice. Keep it coming.
  • @jimmy thanks for the info. BTW are you doing IM Texas? Tina. Course is flat and have been working on nutrition with long runs. Thanks everyone for the advice. Keep it coming.
  • John - since this is your first marathon, you are guaranteed a PR.  So...I suggest that you start out at a slightly slower pace to make sure you don't burn your physical and MENTAL matches too soon.  My marathon experiences taught me that the  last 6 miles are mentally much harder than first 20 miles, and you will need mental strength to force your body to hold the pace.  You get some sense of this in a 20 mile training run, but  it is hard to really experience the full strain since it is comes on hard after mile 20.  The suck will come to you anyway so take it ez at the start and save mental energy for the last 6 miles when everyone else is slowing down.  Good luck.

  • Well attempted the Yasso 800s. Was only able to get 6 done before watch started acting up. 6x800 avg pace 3:14. Rest interval was done on about the 8:15-8:30 min/mile pace. Not able to derive any value from the test but it sure was fun. Will just work on pace during RR. @Bruce. I know this is my first one but I like to push myself and see what I'm capable of.
  • Thanks Patrick
  • No IMTX for me. Had already made a family commitment. But I am hoping to get my name in for IMFL 2013 when the window opens for 10 minutes next month.
    I really like that link that coach P put up. I had always tried to put together a RR with 18 to 20 mi at race pace. Which as a run is tough and takes time to recover from but didnt really answer the question of what was gonna happen at mile 22.
    I really dont like mile 22.
    So trying to push ahead of pace towards the end of an 18miler makes good sense.
  • So attempted the 20 run this past weekend. Plan called for 5 miles @ Z1(8:40) 12 miles @ Z3 (7:24) and 3 miles @Z4 or what ever I could manage. Warm-up started out okay mainly around 8:00-8:20. Towards end of warm-up could tell the remainder of the run was going to be a struggle. Hamstrings and calves were sore and tight (believe from previous workouts). During main set tried to keep pace between 7:20 and 7:30 but found surges of around 6:50-7:10. Started to really tighten up around mile 14 and could see paces beginning to drop continued on till 16. At that point knew pace was to fast so stopped rather than continuing on and risking injury. To be continued
  • So I think for the upcoming Marine Corps Marathon will keep pace between 7:50-8:00. Running at Z 3 pace for duration of marathon takes practice. Body has to get use to running at that pace for an extended period of time. Believe that will come with experience.
  • Keep writing about your process john. it is good to read. pretty fast stuff.
  • @John I assume in your last two posts when you wrote Z3 you meant Z2 MP, because they would be a crazy fast pace for a workout. And by definition you can't run a marathon at Z3 HMP or it's not the correct VDot.
  • @Robert. Yes that was a typo. Should be Z2 pace @ 7:24. Anyways may try for the 20 mile barrier this weekend. The plan calls for 16 but this twenty mile marker is eluding me and beginning to annoy me. Will give me two weeks to recover which should be plenty of time.
  • @ John, I have been following the MN plan for the Philly Marathon. I raced LBI 18 miler with Robert listed above who came in first in his age group.. you go man.. anyway I took my Vdot reduced it by 1.5 and did the pacing Coach P suggested.
    I PR'd by 20 min this race. That was my 3rd time racing this course too. I did a SLOW 5.5 miles I felt like everyone was passing me but I held to my plan. At 5.5 miles into this I kicked in a 30" bump... I passed everyone... who ran by me.. Everyone !!!! There was one guy I passed who eventually re-passed me egging me on for a lets go... I stuck to my pace though and the last 3.5 miles I let go with still an even stronger run.
    I was only passed by 1 person who ran his ass off into the finish shoot.. So what ... I PR'd big time and was very happy with my own progress. The secret was NOT to run my 5k Vdot... but reduce it by 1.5 and for my up coming Marathon I will further reduce it up to 2 or maybe 2.5 and still have a PR ... least of the other million things that can go wrong do.

    D
  • I sent John that advice David. Thanks for driving it home. Hope to meet up with you at Philly after the race????
  • @Dave. Saw your Vdot adjustments in another post and was going to try them this weekend. I really think the issue is up until couple weeks ago was basically training for a HIM. So all my training and pacing was geared towards that distance and pace. Also lost three weeks of distance training with a two week taper and one week recovery. Now with three weeks left til race day, I am attempting to make up for lost time and get use to running at MP for longer distances. When I did the RR last weekend was following the Marathon Nation advice that was in the Wiki as well as the info Brenda sent me. It talked about miles 1-5 MP+15 seconds and miles 6-20 MP-5 seconds and last 6 miles basically what ever you had left. I now know that I don't have the racing or training experience in the marathon to hold those paces. So this weekend will attempt the 2.5 vdot adjustment. Miles 1-5 will run @8:57 (LRP) and miles 6-20 will run at adjusted MP of 7:40. On a side note, I realized why gluts, legs and calves were sore. Started doing P90x and couple evenings before RR decided to attempt 800 repeats. Hind sight maybe not the best move.
  • @ Brenda , for sure we have to get together. As we get closer I'll PM you want to met up with you two and Lieds.
  • awesome, because after that race I am letting loose.

  • @ John,

    So this weekend will attempt the 2.5 vdot adjustment. Miles 1-5 will run @8:57 (LRP) and miles 6-20 will run at adjusted MP of 7:40.

    .



    Bad math or misunderstanding. If this 8:57 is your adjusted pace ... you will run mile 1-5 @ 9:12 the 6 -20 should be run at an 8:53, from 20 to finish is pick it up if you have it. Do not revert back to your 5k Vdot after mile 5 or you will bury yourself.



    @ Brenda, Letting lose after the Marathon.... at that point maybe 2 cups of chicken broth or are we talking about Sunday night in the City ? I peg you at a 3:55 finish is that good ?

  • Adjusted MP pace is 7:40. Adjusted Vdot brings my LRP pace to 8:57 (Zone1) my new MP(Zone 2 pace) goes to 7:40. So miles 1-5 are at LRP and miles 6-20 at MP? That is how its suppose to go correct?
  • Ok got it. Your adjusted pace is now a 7:40 MP right, so you run 1thru 5 @ 7:55 then kick it up to 7:35 until mile 20. At 20 finish as strong as you can. Forget the LRP number.
  • I'm a bit old school on this one...my vdot suggests a marathon pace of 7:40, which is not gonna happen! I find that vdot calculator is totally accurate up until the half (for me anyway) and after that there are just too many variables that come into play for the marathon. If this is your first open marathon, you want to run strong within yourself and set yourself up for a good strong finish. A 3:30 is 8 min pace, so start out easy and give yourself a chance to warm up. Run a smart first 1/2, because you can always pick up the pace...esp after the 20 mile mark. After all, the marathon is a 20 mile run and a 10k race right? If you start out relaxed and conserve (based on training runs when the wheels did not fall off) you will have gas in the tank to negative split. You can NOT bank time on a marathon imho, but you can always blow by people the last miles and negative split. My best marathons have been with a SLOW start, then negative split. I have also had the wheels fall off on some too because I wanted to "be agressive" on time. Experience one before you get locked in on a time. Whatever you run will be a PR ! Remember, you can ALWAYS pick it up, but slowing down is painful and frustrating. Set yourself up for success...run smart, and smile!!!!! You will surprise yourself I'm sure. Good luck and let us know how it goes!
  • The pacing scheme David gave you can be calculated using this:

    https://www.box.com/shared/fxs4ifa422

    But the spreadsheet is based on targeted finish time instead of goal pace. If you are confident in being able to finish strong at 7:40, plug 3:20 into the sheet.

    A more conservative approach is follow Annie's advice to go easy for your first dance and target the 3:30 knowing that you can re-evaluate mid run - at like mile 16 or 18 and still have plenty of miles to trim minutes off by running a strong negative split.

    There is no better feeling in a marathon than being able to run full power the last 2 miles, passing dozens who are on the verge of debilitating calf spasms, smiling all the way in! Run smart, just like an IM or HIM, it all comes down to execution.
  • Thanks for all the great advice. May have no choice but to go 8:00 plus plus pace. Managed to tweak hamstring and calf yesterday. Have been hobbling around all day
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