@Patrick Marsh - Here's your personal Coach Thread, as promised. This is where you'll return to post all your "coach" questions as responses; I'll see them and reply. This first post is here to guide you through your first year on EN, so you can always come back here.
As you'll see in this forum, I handle all manner of edits and changes. So post away, know that I reply here usually M/W/F each week.
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Your Notes
Just finished Placid!
Your Races
10/14/2017 - Hartford Marathon (B)
02/25/2018 - Hyannis Marathon (B)
06/10/2018 - Quassy REV3 HIM (B)
10/21/2018 - Bay State Marathon, Lowell, MA (A)
Your Season Update
These are your recommended training plans, including the date you should start each one (sometimes you won’t complete a full plan but transition to another one). You can change your plans on the Training Plan page by clicking the Move / Change button.
Load up the Balanced Marathon Plan (INT) to end on 10/14/2017.
After Hartford, take off two weeks and chill!!!
On 10/30/2017 load the 2018 OutSeason® INT plan to end on 2/4/2018.
On 2/5/2018 Load up the Balanced Marathon Plan (INT) to end on 2/25/2018.
Chill for 1 to 2 weeks.
We can decide here if we are going to do some GetFast + Short Race Prep ...OR... Longer Race Prep.
Coach Notes
So great to see you race and Placid and do so well. I know you're excited for the rest of your year, what part of my job is to make sure that you make smart decisions. Fall marathon sound fun, but experience Ironman triathletes will tell you that marathons are much harder than standalone Ironmans. It is one of the many mysteries of the universe!
So resting right now it's critical before you begin to build to Hartford. You have plenty of time and fitness, even though it feels like you don't. When it is time to train, I want you to load up the balanced marathon plan which incorporates some cycling. If I had my way, you'd be doing 2 to 3 bikes a week to prepare for this marathon, but we can discuss.
What's with that race you chill again and then kick off 2018 early with our OutSeason® plan since you are racing Quassy.
Thanks. I was discussing 2018 with Scott Dinhoffer. He suggested that I do a second HIM next year. Curious to hear your thoughts. My '18 schedule would then be:
- Feb 25th, Hyannis Marathon - June 10th, Quassy HIM - August - Boulder HIM ? - October 21st - Bay State Marathon
Also, I agree with the observation about standalone marathons. I felt better after IMLP than I did after the Hartford Marathon in 2014. I was surprised, but I had heard friends make the same observation.
Nevertheless, I am very motivated to make an attempt at qualifying for Boston. I think I need to stay consistent with my running so as to not get injured. Also, I will need to be much more committed to core work and stretching if I am going to stay injury free.
I think I was capable of doing a 3:40-45 marathon during last year's Get Fast build. However, I would need to be able to shave 15-20 minutes from that time, or about 45 seconds off of my mile pace, to BQ. That is ambitious... But, no guts no glory.
Coach P - My left knee swelled up again. I opted to skip my long run yesterday and am wondering how or if I should modify my long run (20-miler) this upcoming week and what types of exercises I should include to keep my knee healthy going forward.
Hartford marathon is in four weeks. I am running it with my girlfriend and was shooting for a pretty modest target of 3:55. (I have been hitting all my long-run pace targets, and did a hilly 18-miler at 9:06 last week.).
Since recovering for a few weeks after IMLP, I got my running mileage up to 38 miles per week. In retrospect, I was pushing too hard on the speed work. Two weeks ago, I started feeling some pain on the inside of my knee. Same place I sprained it seven years ago, and that I tweaked in March.
Long story short, I realized on Friday that the minor swelling was affecting how my kneecap was tracking across my tibia - on Friday I could feel a small click with each step (after I was at my office chair and allowed some fluid to pool). Once my knee warms up, I can run pain free. However, a day later, I feel pain when I walk and I can feel fluid pooling around my kneecap. Therefore, I opted to blow off my long run yesterday (just 14 miles).
My knee feels much, much better today after three days off. I suspect that the swelling will be completely gone in a few days. The last time this happened in March, I took a week off and then had healthy running for six months.
Interestingly, my left leg has been a mess. I started getting some hip flexor tightness from cycling this summer. It manifested into some sciatic nerve inflammation in my left leg back in July. Since IMLP, I have been stretching while I ramped up my running. The sciatic pain was relatively insignificant, but it changed my running gait. As, I started going faster, my left Achilles' tendon started to get a bit inflamed. Nothing major, but I was monitoring it and stretching my calf after I ran everytime. When I started going at my speed work with a lot of effort, my left knee got tweaked, and immediately swelled.
My plan to get faster requires that I improve my flexibility and get more athletic (i.e., strengthen my core/hip flexors) as part of my run durability plan. Clearly, I am going to have to be very careful about doing speed work. I think my cardiovascular system and leg muscles are strong, but poor flexibility makes my aging tendons/ligaments vulnerable to injury.
Overall, I am feeling very motivated. I am confident that I will figure out how to stay healthy while getting faster.
Congratulations again on Kona. Thanks for leading from the front and setting such a good example for us to follow.
Hi Coach P. Quick update. The swelling in my knee is just about gone. I have stayed off it for five days. Since Thursday, I just swam, spun or did strength/flexibility exercises. The swelling is down such that I can fully extend my leg without feeling pressure under the kneecap, however I don't think I can fully flex it (i.e., I don't think I could do a yoga pose that would require me to sit on my heels).
Here's my proposed course of action: - Go back to my last long-run distance: I was scheduled to do a 20-miler this week. However, I will stay at 18 miles, which I have done twice during this marathon build. - Be more disciplined about speed-work: Coming off of IMLP, I was very tight and unable to run fast because I couldn't take long strides. As a result, my VDOT dropped from my last test in May and my targeted paces felt way too slow. So, as I began to feel better, I was pushing my Z1-pace too much. I was running sub-7:00 miles because it felt really good, instead of the 7:57-mile pace, which was showing up as my targeted Z1-pace - Re-test my VDOT: I am scheduled to re-test my VDOT today, but I will wait a few days. I want to see how my knee feels after a short run on the treadmill first. However, the current paces for my VDOT feel way too slow.
Going forward, I need to dedicate a lot more time to "pre-habing" my knee. I have been pretty good about stretching and doing core since IMLP - stretching after every run and doing core 3-4 times a week. However, given my age and pre-existing knee issues, I will need to become zealous about doing whole-body strength/core/flexibility exercises. I am realizing that I am only as strong/fast as the weakest link in my kinetic chain will permit.
@Patrick Marsh - thank you very much for the update, and kudos to you for the patients. At the end of the day doing whatever takes to stay healthy is the most important thing of all. No individual work out, even speed work, it's worth rocking the boat so much that we can't do any workouts!
I agree there's deathly something up with that left side of your Kimetic chain. There's a two-pronged approach year… first establishing a type of training that keeps you healthy and fit without aggravating it. Second identifying with the route calls of all these shoes are. It could very well be something to do with the quad taxability or the overall mobility of you which is translating down into other areas of pain.
It's also worth taking a good long look at shoes to see if you made the best choice as well as learning where to cap your run volume. I know I can won 35 miles a week happily. But anything more than 35 puts me in a dangerous spot where I get injured without exception. That took me a decade to learn, so I hope you can pick that up more quickly!
This doesn't mean sacrificing your goals for Boston, but it does mean we do need to recalibrate. You'll have to be crafty or with using the bike as well as the run.
With just a few weeks to go, I'm not sure that you "need" another 18 miler to be ready. That's 100% your call; at the very least plan to shut the long run down if the new stores to park back to you. Your fitness is there it's not worth forcing another five days off.
I ran just under six miles this morning. It felt great. My knee is a bit sore this afternoon, but nothing like last week. I am going to shoot for a long-run tomorrow night. If my knee is bothering me, I will just outright bail.
My running was improving nicely in September. The good news is that I have identified a lot of drills that have improved my running form. I feel like I am using my glutes to drive my knees up and learning to turn over my feet more lightly. My speed work immediately improved, but unfortunately my soft tissue (ligaments and joints) weren't quite ready.
Looking back at my 2016-2017 data, I realize that I ran high volumes last year without injury. My only setback followed a tweaked knee from tripping during a race. I quickly recovered and was back on my way. So, this is my first repetition injury since 2014.
I am re-calibrating my Boston expectations following the last 10 days. I think I am going to treat the next 13 months like a very public science experiment to see how fast I can get without over-doing it. Obviously, this is not something that I can simply muscle through.
My season will unfold in the following broad steps: - 'Test' marathon in Hartford. - Then rest up. - I will improve my fitness through the out-season. - In April, I will do a practice half-marathon. Last year, I got down to an 8:06 pace last winter. My guess is that I would need to be running at a 7:45/mile HM pace by that time if I am going to have any shot of BQ'ing in 2018. - Following that, I will try to beat my 2017 HIM time of 6:03 at Quassy. - After Quassy, I will focus on running. I agree with you that I will have to be crafty and rely on the bike as a platform to build endurance. I think swimming will need to play a role with recovery.
This is all very hard though. The simplest way to put this is that I am finding it difficult during a run to determine if I am overdoing it, because I feel great when I am running. It is typically not until several hours later that I find out if I overdid it. When I was younger, I got immediate feedback when I was working out too hard; but then I would recover quickly. With age, this has turned all upside down.
The last thing that I will add here is that I found this summer that running everyday or even twice a day is helpful when most of those runs are done at a slow pace. I know this is a piece of the puzzle, I just don't know where it fits yet.
@Patrick Marsh - clearly you are beginning to understand the magnitude of what you are attempting. While this is a new journey for you and your body, it’s definitely not something new for the type A personalities that fill our sport!
#1 First of all, if your knee has been bothering you running on back to back this is deafly not ideal. While you feel like your marathon is looming… You don’t need to force the runs in order to be a race ready.
One of the challenges of being a marathon or is that the swim and bike opportunities seem to disappear. Consecutive running workouts, especially ones that are challenging, add up and can’t have a serious impact on your body. But remember, being a triathlete could be a big asset as you maintain a balanced training schedule.
If you told me you could only run four times a week to stay healthy, we would fill the rest with other stuff and still have a pretty damn fit. Something to think about.
#2 Your revised approach to hear seems pretty good to me. Remember, there are games to be made on both the Fitness and the body composition side. If every pound lost it’s worth three seconds in an open Marathon, the You are talking about to improve your half marathon pace and there’s approximately 7 pounds. Combine that with some flavor of Fitness improvements and better race execution and you are off to the races. Literally.
#3 Not understanding the true impact of the run you’re doing now on your overall well this could really be a problem. Over time you will develop a better understanding of the true cost of any individual session, but if you are anything like this Patrick (your coach) this could be a multi year journey of ignoring me how are you and trying to make your dreams work instead of listening to your body. At least we’re both really freaking handsome. With all the seriousness, this could be something that you can solve with technology and discipline. On the technology side, either a heart rate monitor or a running power meter such as the Stryd which we get a discount on, could help you capture the cost of every session while running. This with you understand what the downstream effects of your workout will be.
On the discipline side, having a training log is a great tool. Everyone has a weekly mileage number beyond which they cannot succeed as a runner. For me it is 35 miles right now. Go back and take a look at your training log and see where things are good, and where they go wrong. You’ll likely notice a pattern.
#4 that last piece you talk about, frequent steady running, is known as our Run Durability Program. This is something we do every fall; there’s a group doing it right now (See the post at the top of the general discussion forums. You can also join the chat group that is linked there).
I am a huge fan of this approach. Endurance athletes consistently over estimate the amount of hard running required to be faster. There are many games to be made from putting together consecutively healthy training weeks combined with incremental doses of speed. The biggest problem most athletes make is running too fast too many times and for too long.
One of the biggest outcomes of your year will be determining the proper balance for you, but I am here to help!
Thanks Coach P. All thoughtful suggestions. Thank you. I agree that this could be a multi-year journey.
As for cross-training, I am riding the bike indoors frequently and will start incorporating more pool-time. Regarding the training log/technology issue, I log all my runs into Garmin Connect and Strava. So I have a good understanding of mileage. It seems that right now my limit on runs is in the 30-35 mile area. I have gone higher, but the recent speed-work makes 35 miles per week feel like I full workload. My run durability is not strong enough to benefit from recovery runs. After a heavy speed workout, even next day recovery runs feel like work. As for technology, I am finding the Strava fitness/freshness curve (like TrainingPeaks' CTL) to be insightful. I always look at HR, but my issue seems to come from changes in speed, rather than overall effort. The Stryd may be a good device to use. I have one, and have been collecting data on most of my runs. However, I haven't figured out how to use the data yet.
Finally, I am debating about bailing on Hartford and finding a marathon or HM to do in November/December. I am having good days and bad days with my knee. In other words, I am not at 100%. I signed up for Hartford to do with my girlfriend, who is quite fast but has never done a full marathon. At this point, I think my knee will slow me down by 15-20 minutes over the course of 26 miles. When I ice my knee it is fine. But it is often sore a few hours after a run. At this point, I would be running the marathon as a social event, rather than as a race. I have a week or two to make this decision, but it is in the forefront of my mind.
The good news, and there is good news, is that I am starting to get back to my pre-IM training running form. Leading up to IMLP, the heavy cycling led to fatigue and stiff hips, that led to my run to resemble a shuffle. However, I cannot run fast unless I take longer strides. Therefore, in August I had a very hard time increasing my stride length because I had spent so many months of running slowly with a quick, but very short stride.
I will stick to the plan as best as I can for the next few weeks, trying to not overdo the speed work, and long runs. If there is still soreness in my knee, I will just eat the entry fee for Hartford and find another race to do. I ran on Thursday. The first 10 miles felt terrific. However, after that I changed my gait to take pressure off my knee, and then my pace went from 9:30-ish to 10:00 per mile. Until three weeks ago, I was able to start at 9:30 and then finish with pace in the 8:20 area. So, clearly my Thursday run showed how far I have fallen backwards.
I will keep you posted. Thanks for your response. It was very helpful.
@Patrick Marsh - Thanks for the update! I agree, if the knee does not come around then let’s be smart and dial it into a half.
You are already starting to see a rebound from your year and there’s no point in short-circuiting that just because of the promise you made many moons ago.
One of the reasons we have long-term plans is that so that we can continue to improve on a gradual trend. Any individual event that could change the course of our plan is not worthwhile!
Quick update. Not going to do Hartford. I will be a domestique for my girlfriend Karen - returning the favor from IMLP.
Saw an orthopedist this morning. The swelling in the knee is synovial fluid flowing into the joint because my old meniscus tear has flared up. Getting an MRI next week. Will have to stick to swimming and core until the doctor figures out next steps.
@Patrick Marsh - sometimes the best plans start off less exciting than we anticipated. I am glad you are showing restraint, and that you can repay the favor… That may be the smartest lomg term move of them all!
@Coach Patrick - I got my MRI results today. The doctor says that my old tear is worse - it has at least one other cut going the opposite direction (vertical). Thus, there are loose pieces of cartilage impeding movement in my knee.
To make a long story short, he is recommending arthroscopic surgery to trim the loose cartilage. I would be back on my feet a few days after surgery, and able to swim and cycle within four weeks. After that, he thinks I could ease back into running.
His initial prognosis is that I should not experience any meaningful (if at all) decline in my running performance after I am fully recovered. I need to sort through my work, family and doctor's calendars, but I would hope to get this done in early November so that I could start running again by January.
He cannot tell when cartilage was further damaged, but he did say that my recent ramp up of running intensity is what caused my knee to start swelling. So, I could have had a few tears that I didn't notice, but when I started running hard, the loose cartilage irritated the knee, causing synovial fluid to flood in. That is when I realized that I was dealing with something more serious than run-of-the-mill knee pain.
I will need to re-work my race schedule for 2018...
@Patrick Marsh Thanks for the info. Bummer on the news, but having clarity and a plan of action make me much happier. The winter is the best possible time for this...let me know what hte timing is and set up a call with me when the next slot is open so we can plan: https://calendly.com/pmccrann/15min
I am scheduled for surgery on Tuesday, October 31st. Thinking ahead to my rehab, I have been swimming frequently to maintain some degree of aerobic fitness and doing YouTube yoga sessions about five days a week to get as flexible as possible before the big surgery/trauma setback.
The upside is that I taught myself to do flip-turns and have found a lot of good stretch routines.
Based on my last consultation with my doctor, here's my expected path to normal: - Days 1-2: Rest, ice and very light walking (maybe with crutches) - Days 3-14: Return to normal activities, but no flying and no strenuous activities. Walking encouraged. I need to find more exercises that I can I do to rehab the knee during this part of recovery. I think it will be simple things like quadriceps flexing and assisted heel lifts. Hopefully, I will be allowed to get into the pool with a pull buoy during this phase - Weeks 2-6: I will be able to get back on the trainer and into the pool. I will also figure out when I can start doing aqua-running - Mid-December: I should be able to start running again, cycling with some intensity and using fins when I swim. At that point, I will not have run for three months (six weeks to figure out the problem and schedule surgery and then another six weeks for recovery), therefore, I will be starting from scratch and will need to build up slowly.
Big picture, I need to figure out my 2018 schedule. I think it will probably be Quassy and maybe another HIM, like Maine. I may sign up for Battenkill again, because I love that event.
As for running, I really have no idea about what lies next. During my final consultation, the surgeon said I had a big tear. Since we have no idea when it happened, he won't know how much of the meniscus is damaged, and whether any of the hard cartilage on the ends of femur and tibia have been banged up. The reality is that I will need to reduce pressure on my knee by losing more weight and getting my legs stronger. Also, I will need to be very crafty by optimizing every mile I run.
I will know more next week after my surgery. Until then, it is yoga and swimming.
Thank you for writing all of this out. It will become very useful resource once you begin the road to recovery, especially because it is so objective.
For right now focus on your nutrition and mental state. The journey is always hard at the start close to the finish I’m confident you have the mental strength to see it through
Surgery was uneventful. I was in the ambulatory surgery center by 6:15 am. Asleep by 7:15 am. Awake by 9 am. The doctor said it was a very large tear and he saw a bit of arthritis in the knee. (The nurse told me separately there was almost no sign of arthritis in the knee.) I had been running on this tear since 2010, so I was worried about about how long I had been running on a big tear. My guess is that the tear was growing, but I took some kind of misstep in August/September that caused another tear that was perpendicular to my old one. The doctor will give me a more complete overview next Wednesday.
Today, I am on a regimen of heavy doses of Tylenol alternated with ibuprofen. I have some very strong OxyContin pain killers that I am hoping to not use and flush down the toilet. Right now, my leg feels fine. That is probably because I am still benefiting from the local anesthesia.
My plan is to keep the leg elevated today. Eat lots of healthy foods. Rest again tomorrow. Shower and change dressing on Thursday. Once I take the dressing off, I can start icing it. (My dressing is a few inches thick, so I cannot ice it yet.). I have some flexible ice packs that I can wrap around my knee with an ace bandage. I am supposed to ice 3-4 times a day for the first week.
I discussed my rehab plan to my doctor. He agreed and thinks I will not get any incremental benefit from a formal rehab program. Also, based on my conversation today, I have a few tweaks to my plan.
- Week 1: I will resume stretches for my hamstring and shoulders. Using a elastic band to do hamstring and ITB stretches are OK. I can begin the rehab exercises today - seated leg lifts and quad flexing with a towel under my knee. Also, I will search for some core exercises that will not strain my leg. Lifting my heel off the floor from a supine and seated position, for example, should be fine . If I feel any pressure, I will wait until next week to get back into core. - Week 2: After my 1-week consultation and removal of the last few stitches, the doctor thinks I can start running in the pool and swimming with a pull buoy. However, no flippers or vigorous kicking until week 3. - Weeks 3-6 will entail cycling and swimming - Week 7 will re-introduce running
Again, I am very curious/concerned about my ability to run. There are a lot of people who run well after a partial menisctomy. However, there is an elevated risk of future arthritis if a lot of the meniscus is removed or if there is the presence of arthritis at the time of surgery. It seems that I get a different answer on this risk depending on which medical research papers I read or doctors that I ask.
So to your point earlier this fall, I will need to be crafty about how I approach my running from here on in. Every mile will have to count.
The last thing that I will say is that I went into this surgery feeling great. I gained about five pounds from IMLP, but all the yoga and swimming over the past six weeks have eliminated the many nagging aches and pains that I accumulated during the IMLP preparation. Without doubt, my CTL has fallen faster than Donald Trump's approval ratings, but I feel a few years younger.
I cannot wait to get back on my bike, and am looking forward to inching back into running.
As for 2018, I am thinking about doing Battenkill, Quassy 70.3 and maybe Maine 70.3. Then, I will just focus on run durability for the rest of the year. I don't know how I feel about trying a fast marathon until I get more information about my knee and know how much weekly mileage I can do. (I am thinking of finding an orthopedist who is.a runner and understands how important this is to me.)
Hi Coach P. We are scheduled to speak later this week and during that call I would like to re-do my 2018 race schedule.
My surgery went well. The pain on the inside of my knee is gone, and despite the swelling from the surgery, I can tell I already have better knee flexibility without that flap of cartilage getting in the way. The doctor told me that he took out 30% of my meniscus, which seems to be on the outer end of what is acceptable to continue running. He says that I should have no problems with swimming and cycling after recovery. However, he seems to be saying that I should just be careful running and that there is some statistical evidence of higher incidence of arthritis in the knee among those who run following a partial menisctomy. He said that there was no indication of existing arthritis but there was some wear and tear on the inside of the knee cap. (When my knee was swollen, it did feel like my knee cap didn't track smoothly.).
I started stretching and doing rehab yesterday. However, I decided to spend most of my time on days 1-4 by elevating my foot and icing my knee. Surprisingly, there is not much pain. (I didn't even use any of the pain meds - oxycoedone, and not the OxyContin that mistakenly was autocorrected in my last post.). I am very happy to say that the knee feels better than before the surgery. The swelling is not too bad. The only pain is associated with the three holes that were made to insert the probes. It feels like I have three big bruises on my knee, but the knee seems otherwise fine. There is no pain on the medial side of knee and no clicking when I walk.
So, my best guess is that I can start running by mid-December and training with vigor by January 1st. I think I can be back on the bike and in the pool within 7-10 days. Then, I will do lots of low-intensity cycling, rehab exercises/stretching and swimming. I plan to ease back into running in mid-December.
Therefore, I think I will do Quassy 70,3 in June and Maine 70.3 in August. If my knee feels good, I will try for an October/November marathon. If not, then I will probably do a big cycling event in the fall. Also, I would like to ride Battenkill again in May, and possibly try my hometown half-marathon in April. (Is that too soon?)
My goal is still to do Mt Tremblant in 2019. I was very relieved to hear that my doctor only took out 30% of the meniscus because I understood that to mean that there was a path for me to follow to start running again.
Longer term, the Boston Marathon is still on my mind. This injury certainly set me back at least six months, but I am crossing my fingers that I can get my volume back up and get fast again in 2018. However, I will have to be very crafty with cross-training.
Here's
your updated Season Plan, as promised. This is where you'll return to post all
your "coach" questions as responses; I'll see them and reply. This
first post is my best outline of how to proceed with your races, but you can
ask any / all questions you want. So post away, know that I reply here usually
M/W/F each week.
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Your
Notes
Coming off knee surgery two months ago. Just finished my first week back of running. Have been doing bike, swims and yoga regularly for the past six weeks. Feeling very good and ready to get back at it. I have signed up for HIM Maine 70.3 (August 26th) and the Battenkill ride (4/28). Depending on how my knee feels, I may add a marathon in October. My plan is to do my second IM in the summer of 2019.
Your
Races
- 04/28/2018 (Cycling) Tour of the Battenkill
- 08/26/2018 (HIM) IM Maine
Season
Update
These
are your recommended training plans, including the date you should start each
one (sometimes you won’t complete a full plan but transition to another
one). You can change your plans on the Training Plan page by clicking the Move /
Change button. Learn more about each plan on the Training Plan Central Page.
Last updated by Coach on 01/10/2018
On 1/1/2018 Load the -- Run Durability 1 (9 months out) -- 4 weeks to end on 1/28/2018
On 1/29/2018 Load the -- Run Durability 2 (8 months out) -- 4 weeks to end on 2/25/2018
On 2/5/2018 Load the OutSeason (Bike Focus) Plan, 14wks to end on 5/13/2018
On 5/14/2018 Load the Swim Camp to end on 5/27/2018
On 5/28/2018 Load the Intermediate EN*Half to end on 8/26/2018
On 8/27/2018 Load the -- Post Half Iron Transition Plan, All Levels (2wks) to end on 9/9/2018
Coach
Notes
So great to hear you are "back" on the run train. Here is what I propose you do... Load the Run Durability Program so you areLfocused (but not running a lot) and can work in swims. Join us in the Feb OutSeason Plan so we can train and get building for Battenkill. The bike should get you 85% of the way there; you and I can talk here about adding ing a bit more volume on a weekend in March and early April to spike the bike fitness. Then you recover and refocus towards the Half.
Coach P - I have a few revisions to my season, and want to see how they impact my training schedule.
- I signed up for the American Zofingen - G. Chris Gleason Memorial duathlon on May 20th. I am doing the mid-distance (5-mile trail run/29-mile bike ride/5-mile run/29-mile ride/5-mile run). - This fall, I want to try again for a marathon. The Philly Marathon is on November 18th. It is flat, and late in the season. The marathon is about 12 weeks following Maine HIM.
My knee is feeling good and I am running pretty well. Last week, I did a HM. My "Garmin pace" was 8:24, which was about five seconds slower than last year's time for the same race. Therefore, I think I am pretty close to being back where I was pre-meniscus surgery.
Unfortunately, I've lost about about 5-10% of my cycling power, and am about 10-pounds over race weight. Thus, my cycling has plenty of room for improvement. This past weekend, I struggled on some of the steeper sections of Battenkill, but felt good on the straightaways. Thus, I think I lost some strength, but my endurance is OK.
The Zofingen falls right in the middle of my swim camp block. Swimming may be a good way to taper and recover from the duathlon. Alternatively, I could move the swim block back a few weeks.
Also, what thoughts do you have on the Philly marathon?
@Patrick Marsh - It's been fun to follow your workouts on Strava; I had no idea you were up to running a HM however. And to be only 5 seconds slower per mile; well, you have to be pumped for that!!!!
I think AmZo is perfect for you, but it is BRUTAL biking and trail run/walking. As long as you have the right gears on the bike for the terrain, I think you'll be okay. I say that as less bike strength + harder hills (especially the second bike loop) will put a lot of stress on the knee that could be mitigated with planning. Have you thought about that / is that an option?
During swim block is great; we might need a bit more time to recover but we'll see how your body handles the race stress.
Philly falls perfectly but we'd need to talk about an approach. I'd rather we be conservative as in:
Take a break after Maine...no running for a week.
Monitor long runs en route to philly.
Commit to core / functional strength to keep your body / form in a good place.
Regarding the AmZo, I only have "big boy" gears on my bike. 53/39 upfront and a ten-speed in the back with my largest cassette ring with 28 teeth. I just did Battenkill, so I know what climbing +20% grade hills feels like on my bike. I cannot change the cassette, as I discussed this last year with my mechanic. So, I figure that I will just run slowly or walk uphill to make up for the likely mashing of the pedals. I plan to use my road bike. Dinhoffer suggested that I use my tri-bike, but I like doing hills on my road bike. I climb better, and like having more control on the descents.
Overall, my knee feels pretty good, and I feel like I have established a good base. Sometimes, I feel a bit of weakness in my quadriceps just above my knee cap when I climb stairs. But I never feel any discomfort when I run, or the day after a hard workout. Honestly, I think my knee feels better than it did for most of 2017.
Is an OS test week akin to a taper? If so, I could extend the FebOS by doing week #13 twice, and then race AmZo at the end of week #15. After that, I could do a two week recovery/swim camp. Then, I could do a 13-week HIM block.
Or I could stick to the schedule and do AmZo in the middle of swim camp. I think a week of swimming after AmZo would be enough time to recover. I am looking at AmZo as a workout, and am not looking to empty the tank. Then I would do a 14-week HIM block.
My gut tells me to do AmZo in the middle of swim camp.
And as for the Philly marathon, I will sign up. I want to see how fast I can do a standalone marathon. After Philly, I will segue into preparing for a summer 2019 IM - either IM Canada or IM Mont Tremblant.
@Patrick Marsh - The only thing better than not having the gears you need on your bike is at least knowing the gears you do have. I am pleased that you have done Battenkill so you will be ready for the challenge of AmZo.
I am simply more concerned about the diverse the nature of the fatigue will be experiencing. So just remember safety first. This is meant to be a really challenging day, not setting some kind of personal world record.
I agree to visit inserting the race into your swim camp plans, that’s perfect. Then we continue to race day and beyond to Philly. Really excited to see what we can do for that!
I've just finished Maine 70.3 and am beginning to segue into training for the Philly marathon. I'm planning to do some light runs and recovery workouts this week. Next week, I will start on marathon training. I've loaded the intermediate marathon plan into my Final Surge calendar.
My running is feeling pretty good. My knee feels fine. I was able to build my mileage back up. This summer I have been running 20-30 miles a week. My Maine 70.3 run split was 9:01, which was a bit of a disappointment but it was where I ended up after sticking to my plan of keeping my HR below 145 bpm for the first 10 miles.
My swim was decent despite how little I swam this summer. My bike split was OK at 19.65 mph, but my watts turned out too low, despite being right on top of my target HR. Next year, I need to get my tri-bike configuration buttoned down in spring and then spend more time outside and less time on Zwift. Nevertheless, I put in as much mileage as my schedule would permit.
i messaged you somewhere. you are so Taipei, you missed out on the fact that you set a personal best by 10 minutes! :-)
the times will come, we need to be patient. i would really like you to consider the balanced plan or some cross training. we don’t want to / need to go nuts on the run only program, ok?
If you haven’t already, I strongly encourage you to write up a race report for the team. Even if it’s short, your input will greatly help the team and future Patrick as well!
@Coach Patrick Thanks. This past race was a PR for me. However, to be honest it was a fast course. Nevertheless, everything went relatively smoothly. This was my fourth 70.3 race, so I am feeling pretty comfortable with execution at that distance.
I am eager to get another IM on my calendar, but the logistics are difficult due to family and professional obligations. Right now, I am leaning towards IMAZ in 2019. June and August are both busy months for me, so that basically leaves me with IMLP/IMCA in the summer or IMAZ in the fall. (I don't think IMMT or IMWI will work for me, but those are the races I would really like to do next.) IMCAD seems too far to travel, but the time of year works. Therefore, by default I am looking at a fall IM. What do you think of IMAZ as a fall race?
Secondly, if I choose IMAZ, then I will have a full year between the Philly marathon and IMAZ. Should I sign up for Eagleman (or Quassy) and then another 70.3 in the fall (LP 70.3)? Alternatively, I could do a spring marathon and a late summer 70.3. Some of these races sell out, so I need to start putting races on my 2018 calendar.
As for the marathon training schedule, I took your advice and loaded the intermediate balanced marathon plan. A few questions on the weekly long run. First, i think I will start my long run at a duration of 2:30. I have done some 2+ hour runs this summer, but I haven't done a 3:00 run yet (which is what is called for in the plan next week).
Secondly, the plan has my long runs on Wednesdays, followed by 1-2 rest/cross-train days. Due to work logistics, I need my long-run to be on a Saturday or Sunday. Therefore, I plan to manually move all the calendar events by a few days. Do you agree?
By the way, my goal is to PR this marathon. I am shooting for an 8:40 pace. This is a bit aspirational. For example, my last standalone marathon in 2014 was at 9:00. Last year, I ran a HM at 8:06 after the 2017 OutSeason, but my post-2018OS HM time-trial was 8:20. My Maine 70.3 run split was 9:01. So, I have some wood to chop to get down to 8:40.
My long-term goal is to get my standalone marathon time down to 7:55 so that I can BQ. Alas, that seems to be at least a season or two away. Nevertheless, a BQ is my number one goal, and a sub-12-hour IM is my second goal.
Thanks for your help and any thoughts you can share.
fast course or not a fast course, a PR is a PR! He still had to put the rest together, which takes work.
I like the idea of you doing Arizona, and picking an early season half. Racing as late as November means that you need to split the season into two. I’m not sold on you needing to do a Fall half Iron Man but something like Eagleman would be a nice opportunity for you to race with the team and I have an end goal for the early-season build before a little bit of a summer break.
if you want to push the fall race, then I would suggest you still keep your long runs down in the two hour range but challenge yourself for the pacing. Do you need to show that you can do the work on a medium distance before we can go super long. You will essentially alternate medium distance with tempo pace runs with weekends but just heard easy long runs. Does that make sense?
Let me know when you are done modifying the plan in final surge and I will take a look at it!
Just to confirm, you want me to keep my long weekend runs slow and below 2.5 hours, and then during the week, my runs should be medium distance and have lots of quality up-tempo/interval work? Then, I will add a little bit of distance on the bike to make up for the reduced time on my long run.
My running is feeling pretty good. This weekend, I ran 11.5 miles at 9:01, which is about 25 seconds above my target race pace. Then, this morning I ran a 5k test (per last week’s schedule) to reset my VDOT. My 5k was at 7:21/mile which was a VDOT of 40. Not great but I did race 10 days ago...
My VDOT has bounced around between 39-41 since I banged up my knee. Last year I got it up to 43 during the OS. If I am careful about not overtraining while doing speed work, I think I can get my VDOT for the 5k up to 42.
That is correct. I don’t want you to push the long run is too hard. Your body is still regaining it’s long-term capacity in the best way to allow that to happen is the balance is your long runs with quality middle distance ones. And as always, listen to your knee.
For all of the 2:40 runs, I trimmed 20 minutes. Then I added 30 minutes to the Sunday bike ride
For the September 29th 3-hour run, I trimmed 30 minutes to make it 2:30. Then I added an hour to the bike ride on Sunday
However, I left the October 13th 3:00 race rehearsal as is. I figured we could revisit this distance in early October and see how my knee feels
Along the same lines, for the October 27th scheduled 3:30 run, I cut it back to 3:00. However, I didn't make up for the 30 minutes because it was a long-run and test week.
Also, there is a trail half-marathon near my town on October 7th. It is mostly through suburban forested park trails and a few miles on asphalt. What do you think about me doing that race? (It's called Paine to Pain.) I have done American Zofingen, a local half-marathon and a 70.3 this year, so I have been doing some racing already.
Excellent adjustments! The calendar looks good. I agree with you on the race rehearsal, let’s wait and see.
As for the trail marathon it sounds great. Just be smart and don’t get too risky and any other tougher sections, don’t want to deal with a fall this late in the season.
Comments
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Your Notes
Just finished Placid!
Your Races
Your Season Update
These are your recommended training plans, including the date you should start each one (sometimes you won’t complete a full plan but transition to another one). You can change your plans on the Training Plan page by clicking the Move / Change button.
Learn more about each plan on the Training Plan Central Page.
Coach Notes
So great to see you race and Placid and do so well. I know you're excited for the rest of your year, what part of my job is to make sure that you make smart decisions. Fall marathon sound fun, but experience Ironman triathletes will tell you that marathons are much harder than standalone Ironmans. It is one of the many mysteries of the universe!
So resting right now it's critical before you begin to build to Hartford. You have plenty of time and fitness, even though it feels like you don't. When it is time to train, I want you to load up the balanced marathon plan which incorporates some cycling. If I had my way, you'd be doing 2 to 3 bikes a week to prepare for this marathon, but we can discuss.
What's with that race you chill again and then kick off 2018 early with our OutSeason® plan since you are racing Quassy.
Let's get to work!
~ Coach P
- Feb 25th, Hyannis Marathon
- June 10th, Quassy HIM
- August - Boulder HIM ?
- October 21st - Bay State Marathon
Also, I agree with the observation about standalone marathons. I felt better after IMLP than I did after the Hartford Marathon in 2014. I was surprised, but I had heard friends make the same observation.
Nevertheless, I am very motivated to make an attempt at qualifying for Boston. I think I need to stay consistent with my running so as to not get injured. Also, I will need to be much more committed to core work and stretching if I am going to stay injury free.
I think I was capable of doing a 3:40-45 marathon during last year's Get Fast build. However, I would need to be able to shave 15-20 minutes from that time, or about 45 seconds off of my mile pace, to BQ. That is ambitious... But, no guts no glory.
Hartford marathon is in four weeks. I am running it with my girlfriend and was shooting for a pretty modest target of 3:55. (I have been hitting all my long-run pace targets, and did a hilly 18-miler at 9:06 last week.).
Since recovering for a few weeks after IMLP, I got my running mileage up to 38 miles per week. In retrospect, I was pushing too hard on the speed work. Two weeks ago, I started feeling some pain on the inside of my knee. Same place I sprained it seven years ago, and that I tweaked in March.
Long story short, I realized on Friday that the minor swelling was affecting how my kneecap was tracking across my tibia - on Friday I could feel a small click with each step (after I was at my office chair and allowed some fluid to pool). Once my knee warms up, I can run pain free. However, a day later, I feel pain when I walk and I can feel fluid pooling around my kneecap. Therefore, I opted to blow off my long run yesterday (just 14 miles).
My knee feels much, much better today after three days off. I suspect that the swelling will be completely gone in a few days. The last time this happened in March, I took a week off and then had healthy running for six months.
Interestingly, my left leg has been a mess. I started getting some hip flexor tightness from cycling this summer. It manifested into some sciatic nerve inflammation in my left leg back in July. Since IMLP, I have been stretching while I ramped up my running. The sciatic pain was relatively insignificant, but it changed my running gait. As, I started going faster, my left Achilles' tendon started to get a bit inflamed. Nothing major, but I was monitoring it and stretching my calf after I ran everytime. When I started going at my speed work with a lot of effort, my left knee got tweaked, and immediately swelled.
My plan to get faster requires that I improve my flexibility and get more athletic (i.e., strengthen my core/hip flexors) as part of my run durability plan. Clearly, I am going to have to be very careful about doing speed work. I think my cardiovascular system and leg muscles are strong, but poor flexibility makes my aging tendons/ligaments vulnerable to injury.
Overall, I am feeling very motivated. I am confident that I will figure out how to stay healthy while getting faster.
Congratulations again on Kona. Thanks for leading from the front and setting such a good example for us to follow.
Here's my proposed course of action:
- Go back to my last long-run distance: I was scheduled to do a 20-miler this week. However, I will stay at 18 miles, which I have done twice during this marathon build.
- Be more disciplined about speed-work: Coming off of IMLP, I was very tight and unable to run fast because I couldn't take long strides. As a result, my VDOT dropped from my last test in May and my targeted paces felt way too slow. So, as I began to feel better, I was pushing my Z1-pace too much. I was running sub-7:00 miles because it felt really good, instead of the 7:57-mile pace, which was showing up as my targeted Z1-pace
- Re-test my VDOT: I am scheduled to re-test my VDOT today, but I will wait a few days. I want to see how my knee feels after a short run on the treadmill first. However, the current paces for my VDOT feel way too slow.
Going forward, I need to dedicate a lot more time to "pre-habing" my knee. I have been pretty good about stretching and doing core since IMLP - stretching after every run and doing core 3-4 times a week. However, given my age and pre-existing knee issues, I will need to become zealous about doing whole-body strength/core/flexibility exercises. I am realizing that I am only as strong/fast as the weakest link in my kinetic chain will permit.
I ran just under six miles this morning. It felt great. My knee is a bit sore this afternoon, but nothing like last week. I am going to shoot for a long-run tomorrow night. If my knee is bothering me, I will just outright bail.
My running was improving nicely in September. The good news is that I have identified a lot of drills that have improved my running form. I feel like I am using my glutes to drive my knees up and learning to turn over my feet more lightly. My speed work immediately improved, but unfortunately my soft tissue (ligaments and joints) weren't quite ready.
Looking back at my 2016-2017 data, I realize that I ran high volumes last year without injury. My only setback followed a tweaked knee from tripping during a race. I quickly recovered and was back on my way. So, this is my first repetition injury since 2014.
I am re-calibrating my Boston expectations following the last 10 days. I think I am going to treat the next 13 months like a very public science experiment to see how fast I can get without over-doing it. Obviously, this is not something that I can simply muscle through.
My season will unfold in the following broad steps:
- 'Test' marathon in Hartford.
- Then rest up.
- I will improve my fitness through the out-season.
- In April, I will do a practice half-marathon. Last year, I got down to an 8:06 pace last winter. My guess is that I would need to be running at a 7:45/mile HM pace by that time if I am going to have any shot of BQ'ing in 2018.
- Following that, I will try to beat my 2017 HIM time of 6:03 at Quassy.
- After Quassy, I will focus on running. I agree with you that I will have to be crafty and rely on the bike as a platform to build endurance. I think swimming will need to play a role with recovery.
This is all very hard though. The simplest way to put this is that I am finding it difficult during a run to determine if I am overdoing it, because I feel great when I am running. It is typically not until several hours later that I find out if I overdid it. When I was younger, I got immediate feedback when I was working out too hard; but then I would recover quickly. With age, this has turned all upside down.
The last thing that I will add here is that I found this summer that running everyday or even twice a day is helpful when most of those runs are done at a slow pace. I know this is a piece of the puzzle, I just don't know where it fits yet.
I will keep you posted.
#1 First of all, if your knee has been bothering you running on back to back this is deafly not ideal. While you feel like your marathon is looming… You don’t need to force the runs in order to be a race ready.
One of the challenges of being a marathon or is that the swim and bike opportunities seem to disappear. Consecutive running workouts, especially ones that are challenging, add up and can’t have a serious impact on your body. But remember, being a triathlete could be a big asset as you maintain a balanced training schedule.
#3 Not understanding the true impact of the run you’re doing now on your overall well this could really be a problem. Over time you will develop a better understanding of the true cost of any individual session, but if you are anything like this Patrick (your coach) this could be a multi year journey of ignoring me how are you and trying to make your dreams work instead of listening to your body. At least we’re both really freaking handsome.
With all the seriousness, this could be something that you can solve with technology and discipline. On the technology side, either a heart rate monitor or a running power meter such as the Stryd which we get a discount on, could help you capture the cost of every session while running. This with you understand what the downstream effects of your workout will be.
#4 that last piece you talk about, frequent steady running, is known as our Run Durability Program. This is something we do every fall; there’s a group doing it right now (See the post at the top of the general discussion forums. You can also join the chat group that is linked there).
I am a huge fan of this approach. Endurance athletes consistently over estimate the amount of hard running required to be faster. There are many games to be made from putting together consecutively healthy training weeks combined with incremental doses of speed. The biggest problem most athletes make is running too fast too many times and for too long.
As for cross-training, I am riding the bike indoors frequently and will start incorporating more pool-time. Regarding the training log/technology issue, I log all my runs into Garmin Connect and Strava. So I have a good understanding of mileage. It seems that right now my limit on runs is in the 30-35 mile area. I have gone higher, but the recent speed-work makes 35 miles per week feel like I full workload. My run durability is not strong enough to benefit from recovery runs. After a heavy speed workout, even next day recovery runs feel like work. As for technology, I am finding the Strava fitness/freshness curve (like TrainingPeaks' CTL) to be insightful. I always look at HR, but my issue seems to come from changes in speed, rather than overall effort. The Stryd may be a good device to use. I have one, and have been collecting data on most of my runs. However, I haven't figured out how to use the data yet.
Finally, I am debating about bailing on Hartford and finding a marathon or HM to do in November/December. I am having good days and bad days with my knee. In other words, I am not at 100%. I signed up for Hartford to do with my girlfriend, who is quite fast but has never done a full marathon. At this point, I think my knee will slow me down by 15-20 minutes over the course of 26 miles. When I ice my knee it is fine. But it is often sore a few hours after a run. At this point, I would be running the marathon as a social event, rather than as a race. I have a week or two to make this decision, but it is in the forefront of my mind.
The good news, and there is good news, is that I am starting to get back to my pre-IM training running form. Leading up to IMLP, the heavy cycling led to fatigue and stiff hips, that led to my run to resemble a shuffle. However, I cannot run fast unless I take longer strides. Therefore, in August I had a very hard time increasing my stride length because I had spent so many months of running slowly with a quick, but very short stride.
I will stick to the plan as best as I can for the next few weeks, trying to not overdo the speed work, and long runs. If there is still soreness in my knee, I will just eat the entry fee for Hartford and find another race to do. I ran on Thursday. The first 10 miles felt terrific. However, after that I changed my gait to take pressure off my knee, and then my pace went from 9:30-ish to 10:00 per mile. Until three weeks ago, I was able to start at 9:30 and then finish with pace in the 8:20 area. So, clearly my Thursday run showed how far I have fallen backwards.
I will keep you posted. Thanks for your response. It was very helpful.
You are already starting to see a rebound from your year and there’s no point in short-circuiting that just because of the promise you made many moons ago.
One of the reasons we have long-term plans is that so that we can continue to improve on a gradual trend. Any individual event that could change the course of our plan is not worthwhile!
Quick update. Not going to do Hartford. I will be a domestique for my girlfriend Karen - returning the favor from IMLP.
Saw an orthopedist this morning. The swelling in the knee is synovial fluid flowing into the joint because my old meniscus tear has flared up. Getting an MRI next week. Will have to stick to swimming and core until the doctor figures out next steps.
I will keep you posted.
Please let me know what the doctor says.
To make a long story short, he is recommending arthroscopic surgery to trim the loose cartilage. I would be back on my feet a few days after surgery, and able to swim and cycle within four weeks. After that, he thinks I could ease back into running.
His initial prognosis is that I should not experience any meaningful (if at all) decline in my running performance after I am fully recovered. I need to sort through my work, family and doctor's calendars, but I would hope to get this done in early November so that I could start running again by January.
He cannot tell when cartilage was further damaged, but he did say that my recent ramp up of running intensity is what caused my knee to start swelling. So, I could have had a few tears that I didn't notice, but when I started running hard, the loose cartilage irritated the knee, causing synovial fluid to flood in. That is when I realized that I was dealing with something more serious than run-of-the-mill knee pain.
I will need to re-work my race schedule for 2018...
Onwards!
~ Coach P
The upside is that I taught myself to do flip-turns and have found a lot of good stretch routines.
Based on my last consultation with my doctor, here's my expected path to normal:
- Days 1-2: Rest, ice and very light walking (maybe with crutches)
- Days 3-14: Return to normal activities, but no flying and no strenuous activities. Walking encouraged. I need to find more exercises that I can I do to rehab the knee during this part of recovery. I think it will be simple things like quadriceps flexing and assisted heel lifts. Hopefully, I will be allowed to get into the pool with a pull buoy during this phase
- Weeks 2-6: I will be able to get back on the trainer and into the pool. I will also figure out when I can start doing aqua-running
- Mid-December: I should be able to start running again, cycling with some intensity and using fins when I swim. At that point, I will not have run for three months (six weeks to figure out the problem and schedule surgery and then another six weeks for recovery), therefore, I will be starting from scratch and will need to build up slowly.
Big picture, I need to figure out my 2018 schedule. I think it will probably be Quassy and maybe another HIM, like Maine. I may sign up for Battenkill again, because I love that event.
As for running, I really have no idea about what lies next. During my final consultation, the surgeon said I had a big tear. Since we have no idea when it happened, he won't know how much of the meniscus is damaged, and whether any of the hard cartilage on the ends of femur and tibia have been banged up. The reality is that I will need to reduce pressure on my knee by losing more weight and getting my legs stronger. Also, I will need to be very crafty by optimizing every mile I run.
I will know more next week after my surgery. Until then, it is yoga and swimming.
Surgery was uneventful. I was in the ambulatory surgery center by 6:15 am. Asleep by 7:15 am. Awake by 9 am. The doctor said it was a very large tear and he saw a bit of arthritis in the knee. (The nurse told me separately there was almost no sign of arthritis in the knee.) I had been running on this tear since 2010, so I was worried about about how long I had been running on a big tear. My guess is that the tear was growing, but I took some kind of misstep in August/September that caused another tear that was perpendicular to my old one. The doctor will give me a more complete overview next Wednesday.
Today, I am on a regimen of heavy doses of Tylenol alternated with ibuprofen. I have some very strong OxyContin pain killers that I am hoping to not use and flush down the toilet. Right now, my leg feels fine. That is probably because I am still benefiting from the local anesthesia.
My plan is to keep the leg elevated today. Eat lots of healthy foods. Rest again tomorrow. Shower and change dressing on Thursday. Once I take the dressing off, I can start icing it. (My dressing is a few inches thick, so I cannot ice it yet.). I have some flexible ice packs that I can wrap around my knee with an ace bandage. I am supposed to ice 3-4 times a day for the first week.
I discussed my rehab plan to my doctor. He agreed and thinks I will not get any incremental benefit from a formal rehab program. Also, based on my conversation today, I have a few tweaks to my plan.
- Week 1: I will resume stretches for my hamstring and shoulders. Using a elastic band to do hamstring and ITB stretches are OK. I can begin the rehab exercises today - seated leg lifts and quad flexing with a towel under my knee. Also, I will search for some core exercises that will not strain my leg. Lifting my heel off the floor from a supine and seated position, for example, should be fine . If I feel any pressure, I will wait until next week to get back into core.
- Week 2: After my 1-week consultation and removal of the last few stitches, the doctor thinks I can start running in the pool and swimming with a pull buoy. However, no flippers or vigorous kicking until week 3.
- Weeks 3-6 will entail cycling and swimming
- Week 7 will re-introduce running
Again, I am very curious/concerned about my ability to run. There are a lot of people who run well after a partial menisctomy. However, there is an elevated risk of future arthritis if a lot of the meniscus is removed or if there is the presence of arthritis at the time of surgery. It seems that I get a different answer on this risk depending on which medical research papers I read or doctors that I ask.
So to your point earlier this fall, I will need to be crafty about how I approach my running from here on in. Every mile will have to count.
The last thing that I will say is that I went into this surgery feeling great. I gained about five pounds from IMLP, but all the yoga and swimming over the past six weeks have eliminated the many nagging aches and pains that I accumulated during the IMLP preparation. Without doubt, my CTL has fallen faster than Donald Trump's approval ratings, but I feel a few years younger.
I cannot wait to get back on my bike, and am looking forward to inching back into running.
As for 2018, I am thinking about doing Battenkill, Quassy 70.3 and maybe Maine 70.3. Then, I will just focus on run durability for the rest of the year. I don't know how I feel about trying a fast marathon until I get more information about my knee and know how much weekly mileage I can do. (I am thinking of finding an orthopedist who is.a runner and understands how important this is to me.)
Then, for 2019 I am hoping to do Mont Tremblant.
My surgery went well. The pain on the inside of my knee is gone, and despite the swelling from the surgery, I can tell I already have better knee flexibility without that flap of cartilage getting in the way. The doctor told me that he took out 30% of my meniscus, which seems to be on the outer end of what is acceptable to continue running. He says that I should have no problems with swimming and cycling after recovery. However, he seems to be saying that I should just be careful running and that there is some statistical evidence of higher incidence of arthritis in the knee among those who run following a partial menisctomy. He said that there was no indication of existing arthritis but there was some wear and tear on the inside of the knee cap. (When my knee was swollen, it did feel like my knee cap didn't track smoothly.).
I started stretching and doing rehab yesterday. However, I decided to spend most of my time on days 1-4 by elevating my foot and icing my knee. Surprisingly, there is not much pain. (I didn't even use any of the pain meds - oxycoedone, and not the OxyContin that mistakenly was autocorrected in my last post.). I am very happy to say that the knee feels better than before the surgery. The swelling is not too bad. The only pain is associated with the three holes that were made to insert the probes. It feels like I have three big bruises on my knee, but the knee seems otherwise fine. There is no pain on the medial side of knee and no clicking when I walk.
So, my best guess is that I can start running by mid-December and training with vigor by January 1st. I think I can be back on the bike and in the pool within 7-10 days. Then, I will do lots of low-intensity cycling, rehab exercises/stretching and swimming. I plan to ease back into running in mid-December.
Therefore, I think I will do Quassy 70,3 in June and Maine 70.3 in August. If my knee feels good, I will try for an October/November marathon. If not, then I will probably do a big cycling event in the fall. Also, I would like to ride Battenkill again in May, and possibly try my hometown half-marathon in April. (Is that too soon?)
My goal is still to do Mt Tremblant in 2019. I was very relieved to hear that my doctor only took out 30% of the meniscus because I understood that to mean that there was a path for me to follow to start running again.
Longer term, the Boston Marathon is still on my mind. This injury certainly set me back at least six months, but I am crossing my fingers that I can get my volume back up and get fast again in 2018. However, I will have to be very crafty with cross-training.
Here's your updated Season Plan, as promised. This is where you'll return to post all your "coach" questions as responses; I'll see them and reply. This first post is my best outline of how to proceed with your races, but you can ask any / all questions you want. So post away, know that I reply here usually M/W/F each week.
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Your Notes
Coming off knee surgery two months ago. Just finished my first week back of running. Have been doing bike, swims and yoga regularly for the past six weeks. Feeling very good and ready to get back at it. I have signed up for HIM Maine 70.3 (August 26th) and the Battenkill ride (4/28). Depending on how my knee feels, I may add a marathon in October. My plan is to do my second IM in the summer of 2019.
Your Races
- 04/28/2018 (Cycling) Tour of the Battenkill
- 08/26/2018 (HIM) IM Maine
Season Update
These are your recommended training plans, including the date you should start each one (sometimes you won’t complete a full plan but transition to another one). You can change your plans on the Training Plan page by clicking the Move / Change button. Learn more about each plan on the Training Plan Central Page.
Coach Notes
So great to hear you are "back" on the run train. Here is what I propose you do... Load the Run Durability Program so you areLfocused (but not running a lot) and can work in swims. Join us in the Feb OutSeason Plan so we can train and get building for Battenkill. The bike should get you 85% of the way there; you and I can talk here about adding ing a bit more volume on a weekend in March and early April to spike the bike fitness. Then you recover and refocus towards the Half.
Let's get to work!
~ Coach P
Coach P - I have a few revisions to my season, and want to see how they impact my training schedule.
- I signed up for the American Zofingen - G. Chris Gleason Memorial duathlon on May 20th. I am doing the mid-distance (5-mile trail run/29-mile bike ride/5-mile run/29-mile ride/5-mile run).
- This fall, I want to try again for a marathon. The Philly Marathon is on November 18th. It is flat, and late in the season. The marathon is about 12 weeks following Maine HIM.
My knee is feeling good and I am running pretty well. Last week, I did a HM. My "Garmin pace" was 8:24, which was about five seconds slower than last year's time for the same race. Therefore, I think I am pretty close to being back where I was pre-meniscus surgery.
Unfortunately, I've lost about about 5-10% of my cycling power, and am about 10-pounds over race weight. Thus, my cycling has plenty of room for improvement. This past weekend, I struggled on some of the steeper sections of Battenkill, but felt good on the straightaways. Thus, I think I lost some strength, but my endurance is OK.
The Zofingen falls right in the middle of my swim camp block. Swimming may be a good way to taper and recover from the duathlon. Alternatively, I could move the swim block back a few weeks.
Also, what thoughts do you have on the Philly marathon?
Hope this finds you well.
I think AmZo is perfect for you, but it is BRUTAL biking and trail run/walking. As long as you have the right gears on the bike for the terrain, I think you'll be okay. I say that as less bike strength + harder hills (especially the second bike loop) will put a lot of stress on the knee that could be mitigated with planning. Have you thought about that / is that an option?
During swim block is great; we might need a bit more time to recover but we'll see how your body handles the race stress.
Philly falls perfectly but we'd need to talk about an approach. I'd rather we be conservative as in:
- Take a break after Maine...no running for a week.
- Monitor long runs en route to philly.
- Commit to core / functional strength to keep your body / form in a good place.
What do you say?~ Coach P
Hi Coach P. Thanks for your post.
Regarding the AmZo, I only have "big boy" gears on my bike. 53/39 upfront and a ten-speed in the back with my largest cassette ring with 28 teeth. I just did Battenkill, so I know what climbing +20% grade hills feels like on my bike. I cannot change the cassette, as I discussed this last year with my mechanic. So, I figure that I will just run slowly or walk uphill to make up for the likely mashing of the pedals. I plan to use my road bike. Dinhoffer suggested that I use my tri-bike, but I like doing hills on my road bike. I climb better, and like having more control on the descents.
Overall, my knee feels pretty good, and I feel like I have established a good base. Sometimes, I feel a bit of weakness in my quadriceps just above my knee cap when I climb stairs. But I never feel any discomfort when I run, or the day after a hard workout. Honestly, I think my knee feels better than it did for most of 2017.
Is an OS test week akin to a taper? If so, I could extend the FebOS by doing week #13 twice, and then race AmZo at the end of week #15. After that, I could do a two week recovery/swim camp. Then, I could do a 13-week HIM block.
Or I could stick to the schedule and do AmZo in the middle of swim camp. I think a week of swimming after AmZo would be enough time to recover. I am looking at AmZo as a workout, and am not looking to empty the tank. Then I would do a 14-week HIM block.
My gut tells me to do AmZo in the middle of swim camp.
And as for the Philly marathon, I will sign up. I want to see how fast I can do a standalone marathon. After Philly, I will segue into preparing for a summer 2019 IM - either IM Canada or IM Mont Tremblant.
Hope you're having a good weekend.
I am simply more concerned about the diverse the nature of the fatigue will be experiencing. So just remember safety first. This is meant to be a really challenging day, not setting some kind of personal world record.
@Coach Patrick
I've just finished Maine 70.3 and am beginning to segue into training for the Philly marathon. I'm planning to do some light runs and recovery workouts this week. Next week, I will start on marathon training. I've loaded the intermediate marathon plan into my Final Surge calendar.
My running is feeling pretty good. My knee feels fine. I was able to build my mileage back up. This summer I have been running 20-30 miles a week. My Maine 70.3 run split was 9:01, which was a bit of a disappointment but it was where I ended up after sticking to my plan of keeping my HR below 145 bpm for the first 10 miles.
My swim was decent despite how little I swam this summer. My bike split was OK at 19.65 mph, but my watts turned out too low, despite being right on top of my target HR. Next year, I need to get my tri-bike configuration buttoned down in spring and then spend more time outside and less time on Zwift. Nevertheless, I put in as much mileage as my schedule would permit.
i messaged you somewhere. you are so Taipei, you missed out on the fact that you set a personal best by 10 minutes! :-)
the times will come, we need to be patient. i would really like you to consider the balanced plan or some cross training. we don’t want to / need to go nuts on the run only program, ok?
If you haven’t already, I strongly encourage you to write up a race report for the team. Even if it’s short, your input will greatly help the team and future Patrick as well!
@Coach Patrick Thanks. This past race was a PR for me. However, to be honest it was a fast course. Nevertheless, everything went relatively smoothly. This was my fourth 70.3 race, so I am feeling pretty comfortable with execution at that distance.
I am eager to get another IM on my calendar, but the logistics are difficult due to family and professional obligations. Right now, I am leaning towards IMAZ in 2019. June and August are both busy months for me, so that basically leaves me with IMLP/IMCA in the summer or IMAZ in the fall. (I don't think IMMT or IMWI will work for me, but those are the races I would really like to do next.) IMCAD seems too far to travel, but the time of year works. Therefore, by default I am looking at a fall IM. What do you think of IMAZ as a fall race?
Secondly, if I choose IMAZ, then I will have a full year between the Philly marathon and IMAZ. Should I sign up for Eagleman (or Quassy) and then another 70.3 in the fall (LP 70.3)? Alternatively, I could do a spring marathon and a late summer 70.3. Some of these races sell out, so I need to start putting races on my 2018 calendar.
As for the marathon training schedule, I took your advice and loaded the intermediate balanced marathon plan. A few questions on the weekly long run. First, i think I will start my long run at a duration of 2:30. I have done some 2+ hour runs this summer, but I haven't done a 3:00 run yet (which is what is called for in the plan next week).
Secondly, the plan has my long runs on Wednesdays, followed by 1-2 rest/cross-train days. Due to work logistics, I need my long-run to be on a Saturday or Sunday. Therefore, I plan to manually move all the calendar events by a few days. Do you agree?
By the way, my goal is to PR this marathon. I am shooting for an 8:40 pace. This is a bit aspirational. For example, my last standalone marathon in 2014 was at 9:00. Last year, I ran a HM at 8:06 after the 2017 OutSeason, but my post-2018OS HM time-trial was 8:20. My Maine 70.3 run split was 9:01. So, I have some wood to chop to get down to 8:40.
My long-term goal is to get my standalone marathon time down to 7:55 so that I can BQ. Alas, that seems to be at least a season or two away. Nevertheless, a BQ is my number one goal, and a sub-12-hour IM is my second goal.
Thanks for your help and any thoughts you can share.
fast course or not a fast course, a PR is a PR! He still had to put the rest together, which takes work.
I like the idea of you doing Arizona, and picking an early season half. Racing as late as November means that you need to split the season into two. I’m not sold on you needing to do a Fall half Iron Man but something like Eagleman would be a nice opportunity for you to race with the team and I have an end goal for the early-season build before a little bit of a summer break.
if you want to push the fall race, then I would suggest you still keep your long runs down in the two hour range but challenge yourself for the pacing. Do you need to show that you can do the work on a medium distance before we can go super long. You will essentially alternate medium distance with tempo pace runs with weekends but just heard easy long runs. Does that make sense?
Let me know when you are done modifying the plan in final surge and I will take a look at it!
Just to confirm, you want me to keep my long weekend runs slow and below 2.5 hours, and then during the week, my runs should be medium distance and have lots of quality up-tempo/interval work? Then, I will add a little bit of distance on the bike to make up for the reduced time on my long run.
My running is feeling pretty good. This weekend, I ran 11.5 miles at 9:01, which is about 25 seconds above my target race pace. Then, this morning I ran a 5k test (per last week’s schedule) to reset my VDOT. My 5k was at 7:21/mile which was a VDOT of 40. Not great but I did race 10 days ago...
My VDOT has bounced around between 39-41 since I banged up my knee. Last year I got it up to 43 during the OS. If I am careful about not overtraining while doing speed work, I think I can get my VDOT for the 5k up to 42.
Regards,
Patrick Marsh
917-502-4191
Sent from my iPhone
That is correct. I don’t want you to push the long run is too hard. Your body is still regaining it’s long-term capacity in the best way to allow that to happen is the balance is your long runs with quality middle distance ones. And as always, listen to your knee.
I just updated the workout schedule:
Also, there is a trail half-marathon near my town on October 7th. It is mostly through suburban forested park trails and a few miles on asphalt. What do you think about me doing that race? (It's called Paine to Pain.) I have done American Zofingen, a local half-marathon and a 70.3 this year, so I have been doing some racing already.
Excellent adjustments! The calendar looks good. I agree with you on the race rehearsal, let’s wait and see.
As for the trail marathon it sounds great. Just be smart and don’t get too risky and any other tougher sections, don’t want to deal with a fall this late in the season.