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Maurice Matthew's Micro Thread

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    edited December 19, 2018 6:52PM

    Hey Coach P. I have several ultra training questions but I think I've figured out answers to some:

    1. What should the breakdown be for faster runs versus Ultra paced runs for weekly workouts? Follow the training plan guidance during the week but sub the TRP wknd pace for ultra pace? Should runs under two hours be done at faster pace (TRP) and once I get above 2hr runs scale it to Ultra Pace?
    2. I have a race that's a "do how many laps you can do in 6hrs" event on Jan 6th? I've been on the Ultra Plan for a few weeks but my prescribed runs have not gone past 3hrs based on where I am in the plan. Jan 6th is a 4hr run training day but the event is 6hrs. Should I add longer weekend runs? My runs for the next two weeknds are 3hrs sat/3hrs sun, 3hrs sat/3.30hrs sun. The wknd of the race per the plan has me doing 4hrs sat/3hrs sun. The event is that Sunday.
    3. I am also trying to figure out the pace that works. A few folks gave me advice on keeping my heart rate below 135(My max is 188). My ultra run paces avg around 155 power, 13:30 pace, 141 hr. This is probably still too fast. Just looking for general guidance in this area.
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    @maurice matthews -

    Hey man, thanks for checking in. I don’t think you really need to bury your piece so much when you’re in ultra training mode. It’s more about burying the training intensity to create opportunities for growth. You could achieve this by running steady but doing harder bike workouts, just like our best friend @Tim Sullivan - or by just doing one faster run per week. Don’t make it too complicated. Part of what you’re doing is building efficiency at that ultra pace which takes a fair amount of repetition and consistency at that level.

    One of the reasons we stack those back to back run bases so that you can come by them in a bigger effort. Of course, you can’t do them all the same pace but in that type of event you’ll be doing some walk run anyway. I would stick with your current plan as it stands now but plan on doing a protocol where you run 2 miles and then walk 3 minutes.

    It’s important note that ultra pace on a crazy train all terrain is different then a long day of running pace in a park on the loop. I don’t know what your courses like but don’t be afraid to run steady. You don’t have to just like yourself down into ultra mode in mile 1.

    Using Hargrave as a guide on Wednesday is very useful to make sure that you aren’t overachieving in any particular area. The hard part is, I need to know more about your past race pace so I can give you a better benchmark. Can you tell me what you’ve done for a standalone half marathon in which I can start.

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    @Coach Patrick Thanks! The run 2 miles and walk 3 minutes has been working has it keeps my heart rate down modestly.

    My standalone half is 1:49 which was 2 years ago. Haven't done one in quite a minute. The terrain is a trail. It is a 1.24 mile loop for 6 hrs. It has two steep upgrades(I walk these) which commence in two downgrades.

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    Thanks for the detail. I vote you should be able to run faster overall is that Kareem change is not significant. However, we are pacing for six hours which is a very different problem to solve.

    Essentially you want to “settle in“ two apiece that’s comfortable for you but you can keep running. Heart rate is a good indicator for that but it’s not a great one to start with. Heart rate becomes more reliable after 30 minutes to an hour. So I don’t want you to run out of the gate with a heart rate target in mind would rather do the first lap steadily and then let’s see what the numbers look like.

    The bigger issue for you to solve is your nutrition. That will be the difference maker between a decent day and six hours that you won’t want to remember. Continuing on after the halfway point will be just as much of a mental battle as it is physical. You will need caffeine and sugar in your arsenal for fuel, and a solid mental six pack to keep going when the going gets tough.

    After you hit halfway, you won’t have to worry about going to fast! It’s excessive stopping that is your biggest enemy. 😂

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    The nutrition is the big thing. Ive been trying to the 2 bloks per 30 minutes and taking 3 sips of my GE every half mile which keeps me going. I estimate im drinking 24oz per hour, so I'm taking in probably 200-240 calories per hour. I'm going to figure out how to mix in my soft pretzels since i like those lol. Had not thought about the sugar element but its something to think about.

    Yes, we are allowed to create a tent and our own section for the race so excessive stopping will be a large hurdle for me 🤣. I'll be sure to send you all messages on groupme at the halfway mark lol.

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    Send me all the messages, I can’t wait. Don’t worry so much about your hourly nutrition. Make sure you have hey big breakfast the morning before, and early dinner, and your last meal no closer than three hours before race start. Take a look at our nutrition protocol for an Iron Man as a guide.

    If you can get all of the pre-run Nutrition) Street, the hourly stuff isn’t as critical. If required, you can always slow down to eat a bit more of something playing like a bagel, or perhaps something with a little bit of protein like a cliff builder bar (half of it) to get you back on track. And of course, don’t forget drinking Coke in the last third of the race. Good luck and happy new year.

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    Thanks thats good to know @Coach Patrick My last question. Should I do my 4hr planned workout on Saturday before the 6hr event Sunday?

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    UM Hell no but I don’t think you did anyway. Looking forward to hearing your recap soon! And seeing some pictures!

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    Hey Coach I'm doing a 50k at Keys 100 May 18th. How do I adjust the marathon plan to compensate for a 50k or do I use the Ultra Plan?

    Thanks

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    I think you should stick with the marathon plan, is the difference between a marathon and a 50 K is only 5 miles. The ultra plan is for a 50 miler event and it’s pretty legit as your teammates will tell you! 💪

    You have two options. First you could extend the long runs as written by another 30 minutes which should get you 3 to 3 1/2 more miles per long run. This way your long run will be in the 22 mile range versus the 18 mile range, which would be sufficient.

    The other way is a bit more conservative and we instead put the time into a second long run, typically done during the week. In this case your Wednesday Run would grow in duration and would increase your total weekly volume volume as a tool to prepare you for the 50 K. Do you have a preference based on your schedule or current fitness?

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    I prefer option one to extend the long run.

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    OK, let’s roll with that for now. In fact, this first week I would only do it by 10 minutes and then increase in additional 10 minutes over the next two weeks. This way you should have enough time to adapt and handle the change. Let me know if you need help making edits inside final surge!

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    @Coach Patrick I completed my first 50K..yippay! Now I need to find something else 😀. I really need to train so I don't get fat....seriously. I found a trail marathon July 6th I believe I'll run here in Florida. With that being that case, I'm not sure how long I should chill out before running again. That's it for the moment. I put all my 50k info in my race report FYI.

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    edited May 22, 2019 9:00PM

    I recommend two weeks of no running. You can get your Zwift on. You can do some long walks, you can even do some light circuit training/strength work. We just need to protect your legs for two weeks. It’s just a good investment in your whole year if that makes sense.

    In addition to that, if you plan on remaining a triathlete we might want to work in some kind of fall cycling event to be a training target for you. 😂

    I hope there’s some good pictures in that race report!

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    @Coach Patrick Got it! It's tough being in SoFla, we don't have cycling events but I'll find something. Right now I need to structure my plans to get faster running this year. I need to find some running races and I want to work on body comp since that's low hanging fruit for getting faster running. Is there a plan to get faster running without having a designated race?

    Goals 2019:

    Get Faster Running Half/Full Distance - No races on the calendar yet

    Find Cycling Event - No races yet

    Random - I was going to follow a full ironman plan (not planning to race one until fall 2020) and hopefully lose weight through the training. Is that a silly idea?

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    Before I get to prescriptive, can you give me a sense of what you mean by losing weight? As in height, weight, and body fat percentage if you have it. Think it’s important to keep all of those things relative.

    Volume is an easy way for men to lose weight, but it’s not always the best path to speed. Especially considering you just train floor and ran such a long distance. Your body needs a little bit of variety. I think having a race on the calendar is a good way to get workout compliance but not necessarily speed.

    Speaking of which, can you help define for me what you mean by faster? Is it a better 5K time or a better 50 K time?

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    Height: 5'5: Body Fat: 19%

    Currently Weight: ~175

    Goal Weight by Miami Man(11/19/19): ~160

    Goals: Run Under 1:45 for 13.1 Distance and Run Under 4hrs for 26.2 Distance

    Running Races: There are no running races in my area for the distance I want until the fall

    9/21/19: Half Marathon

    10/26/19: Half Marathon

    11/10/19: Half Marathon

    1/26/20: Half Marathon

    2/9/20: Full Marathon

    Triathlons Races: Currently do not own a bike and don't plan to purchase until August 2019

    11/19/19: Miami Man (Half Iron Distance)

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    @maurice matthews So you aren't FAT as you insist, but you are looking to get lean. I have to be honest and tell you that rewiring your body takes time; we can work on getting you lean and lighter for November, but as the same time we have to recognize there is a fine line between cutting weight and getting fit. And it’s not one you want to be on the wrong side of. 


    I think that you will need to be creative in how you manage your nutrition and training; with about 2 free months on your hands before you need to get serious for Miami Man, this is the time to do some good work. 


    I think this is best done in a community thread in the General Discussion forum, tagged as Nutrition. I would include Sheila and Withrow for starters. We can begin the big picture discussion process.


    When you create that thread, please post the link back here. 


    In the meantime, you can do the run durability Phase Two plan. Ideally we keep you on a 7-days a week routine where you are active and we keep your metabolism going. Let me know if you need help setting that up!

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    Hey @Coach Patrick I've signed up for Miami Man Nov 12th. I'm doing the Half Duathlon (2 mile run/56 mile bike/ 13.1 run) so no swimming for me. I haven't cycled all year but I plan to "Sullivan" my way back into cycling shape along with keeping up my steady running.

    Which you recommend I do the Half Iron Plan and just add runs where the swims are in the plan? Or do something else?

    Thanks

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    Hey! That’s great news I’m adding the race. I recommend you spend August doing lots of shorter and harder for Zwift Races. Things like the bump races are perfect. Really build up your high-end strength on the bike and then in September and October we can begin transitioning that took longer and longer intervals. You are, in no means, and any sort of rushed to prepare for a Nov Race at this point.

    Out of curiosity, will you be doing any outdoor training in the fall or will this all be on Zwift?

    Not having a swim on the schedule is actually really beneficial. You should absolutely have one day a week that is 100% off so pick that day and let me know what it is so I can help you structure the week.

    I would replace that Friday’s swim with a Stryd run which is mostly at TRP piece with a couple of pick ups at the end Simply is part of your run build.


    Will you be trying to race this as in be hyper competitive or are you just doing it? If you are racing we might want to focus a bit on the 2 mile run portion before the bike. Either way, you will want to start doing a short run before the bike workouts when we hit September and October.

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    @Coach Patrick it will be doing all riding on Zwift and I will be racing the Miami man.

    The one day off would be Thursday.

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    OK, you still didn’t answer my question about how competitive you want to be. But we don’t have to cover that right now. Basically you will be following the half iron plan doing the level two workouts. You don’t have to start that until the first week of September. Until then, you will want to do the following:

    • two races like the bump race each week.
    • One steady endurance ride of about 90 minutes to 2 hours.
    • And one tempo ride of about 90 minutes.

    You can follow the run workouts as they’re listed. As for the swims, I would suggest you take the Monday off from training right now, and you can add a warm-up 30 minute spin to your Fridays before the Strides run.

    You should be good with your training for now, basically a pretty hard bike work out when you feel good, Endurance when you don’t, and lots of frequent running. Enjoy the freedom. Then when you hit early September, go ahead and load up that training plan and let me know what you think.

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    hey @Coach Patrick I started the Half Training plan and following the days as prescribed. Trying to figure out what do to replace the swims during the Half program. I've just been running to replace them at the moment.

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    I would suggest that there are really two swims to replace: Monday (recovery) and Friday (endurance loading before weeekend)

    so Monday could be an easy 4 to 6 miles with strides (4 to 6 repeats).

    Friday would be more of a progressive run. Call it 4-6 again but building from z1 to z3 in thirds. You should be pretty torqued by the end of this short run.

    deal?

    ~ Coach P

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    Hey @Coach Patrick now that we are in the outseason I'm looking for what suggested plan I should upload.

    I plan to race A1A Marathon Jan 26th. I'd ideally like to break 4 hours, but not sure if it's realistic at this stage so I plan to run as fast as I can. I'm not just running it to complete it.

    I also plan to race 70.3 Florida April 19th

    ITU Middle Distance Duathlon Worlds in Denmark May 16th - (10k - 60k - 10k)

    Thanks - Moe

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    @maurice matthews - okay, run fast it is! To be clear, a 4 hour marathon requires an average pace of 9:09 per mile. So we'll want to target 8:45s so you have a buffer. This "target" is what you should be basing your long runs off of.

    If you are doing other, shorter races, you can use the following benchmark times That correspond to a sub 4 marathon --> you should be able to run a sub-1:50 half-marathon (8:20 per mile) and sub-50:00 10K (8:00 per mile).

    I see you runs on the weekend are close...those can be in the 9:00 to 9:20 range for now. It's the tempo / fast runs that we want to be faster, not ALL the runs.

    Let me know how I can help!

    Coaching Naturally,

    ~ Coach P

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    @Coach Patrick long long time lol. Figured I'd come here to get some semblance of a strategy together for 4 hr marathon again. Targeted race is Miami Marathon Jan 31, 2021 (fingers crossed its held). I'll probably do a half or two in the winter as a tune up or if there is a marathon I can do to see where I stand.


    For the past month I've been focusing on MAF runs working on getting a solid base for my Heart rate down in this heat. I havent been doing any speed work and biking once a week, maybe twice if its thundering. I'd like to know if I should do a plan for my base running or just continue to focus on base miles and then switch to marathon plan at some point in the future.

    Bike isn't really a focus for me right now, although I do at least once a week because I know it makes you a stronger runner.

    Let me know your thoughts.

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    @maurice matthews - Great to hear from you. And great to hear that you've got a decent schedule in place to account for your new life! The baseline aerobic approach with MAF is fine. It's sustainable, even if it isn't progressive.

    Our marathon plans are 16 weeks long, which means you have 10 weeks to go until we start "officially". I would recommend starting to build up some run intensity in your program, just so you have that in your run skill set before you start proper marathon training.

    I suggest you use the Balanced Durability Plan for these ten weeks, each is 4 weeks...so that would be 4 of BDP1, 4 of BDP2 and then 2 weeks of BDP3. These plans alternate Run Focused and Bike Focused...i think that would fit your plan EXCEPT I would make sure you run a minimum of 45' on the weekend.

    Once you load those up, let me know and we can modify a week for you so you have a template!

    ~ Coach P

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