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Power for dummies!

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  • I've recently converted to using the Premium TrainingPeaks for $10/month online (it exists in the "cloud" so you can use your login from any computer of iPad, etc). I actually started logging all of my workouts and it has been very useful for me. But to be honest, for the first couple of yrs, I simply trusted RnP to write the plans such that my TSB would be managed over the course of my training. So if you really are a data geek, Trainingpeaks.com is very nice. Some people also use WKO+ (if you use a PC and not a Mac) and some people use Golden Cheetah.

    BUT... If you are not a data geek and just want something simple and easy then you can do the following:

    During your 5'-10'-20' FTP test, have your computer set to NOT auto-lap. Then after your warmup, hit the "lap" button right as you start your 5' VO2 effort, and hit it again right at the end of 5' minutes. Then ride your 10' easy and hit the lap button again just as you start your 20' FTP effort and hit it again at the end of these 20'. Assuming you were on a relatively flat course (or inside on the trainer for OS stuff), it's most likely "close enough" to assume that your Average Power (AP) and your Normalized Power (NP) were the same for each of your laps. So after you "reset" your computer, upload it to either the free trainingpeaks site, or Garmin Connect, or even just look at the history on the watch itself and write down what the average power was for each of the laps.

    Lap 1 (Warmup)
    Lap 2 (5' VO2) - this NP is your VO2 Power (note it 'should' be roughly 120% of your ftp, if it is widely different, start a new thread to discuss)
    Lap 3 (10' of easy spin)
    Lap 4 (20' FTP) - take 95% of this NP number and that is your FTP
    Lap 5 (cool down)

    Now go into your Garmin and set your FTP number

    If you plan to log some or all of your workouts, then go into whatever software you choose and set your FTP in there.

    Now going forward, you can upload your workouts into Garmin Connect or Trainingpeaks if you want to, but not absolutely necessary.

    Again, see above at the beginning of this thread, but basically you will care about a few numbers so commit them to memory: FTP, 85% x FTP, 70% of FTP, etc...
  • Thanks everyone for the input!  It was mucho helpful...

    I've put my Power zones in my watch and there are some gaps but I can deal with that.  Do you feel it's better to use %FTP or Watts for the zones?  On my display I have Power %FTP, 3's Power, IF and time.  ??? something more useful?

     

  • Hi Jenn

    Which watch do you have? If it can display Pnorm, I would display lap Pnorm, 3 sec Pav, lap time, lap Pav, and perhaps IF. You don't need IF and %FTP at the same time because they are the same thing (eg IF equals 0.8 then this is 80% of FTP).

    What I do is (I have a Joule) display 3 sec av power, lap Pnorm, Lap Pav, lap time, lap Pmax, cadence, speed, heart rate.
    When practicing ridding steady, I use a 30 min lap time because I eat a quarter of a power bar every 30 mins. A shorter lap is better but I don't want to get my fuelling confused.
    So at the start of the lap I just get my lap Pnorm to the target and try and make it sit on that number while also trying to keep lap Pav as close to the Pnorm number as I can. On a flat road I can usually keep both within a watt or so — meaning my VI is very close to 1. Of course if you have a steep hill going down and coast, Pav falls more quickly than Pnorm which pushes up the VI — but that is just what happens. There is no use pushing target watts down hill above the coasting speed.

    The reason to use 3 sec average is that while it is more jumpy than 10 sec average, it shows you much more quickly if you are pushing too hard. With the 10 sec average it takes over 5 secs before you can see if you are pushing too hard. With my 3 sec average, I am looking for a number within 20 watts of my Pnorm target. For example, if my target is 165 watts (HIM), I am looking for a number between 185 and 145, and hopefully a bit tighter than that, say 150 to 180. I also try and keep lap Pmax as low as I can (I don't ever want to see a number above my FTP).

    If you can't display Pnorm, then I would show 3 sec Pav, lap Pav, and lap time and any thing else you want eg speed (I stop pushing when above 32 mph) heart rate?, cadence?
  • I have the 910XT and it has 4 fields I can display/change, based on your suggestion I picked Normalized Power (same as Pnorm??), 3's Power,  Lap Power and IF.

    It also has options for Power Balance Lap, Power Lap Or Power Last Lap, the list is endless.

    While riding I can change the screens to get HR, Elevation, Grade, Current lap, current speed, lap distance and so on.. I'm assuming the most important one for training and racing would be the one listed above in 1st paragraph and also to look at HR.

    I'm going to finish up the Webinar tonight so hopefully I'll be more "in the know" when I'm done!

    Thanks for taking so much time to explain, appreciated!

    Jenn

  • We each have our own preferences for what to display on the power meter head unit. If I had to choose four fields (my Joule lets me show six), I'd opt for Lap IF, 3s (current) watts, % grade or elevation, and lap time. If it's a flat course, I'd substitute cadence for grade/elevation.

    I use % IF, as that number never changes, meaning, if I'm doing an HIM, I know I'm aiming for, say, 0.79 no matter what my FTP happens to be. At my age, the less you have to remember or calculate, the better.

    "Let's see, is my FTP 215 this month, or 220. And what's 79% of 218, anyway?"

  • On my 910xt which I use as a backup (in case my Edge 500 craps out) I display 3s Power, Lap NP, Cadence, HR.

    Mine Auto-Laps every 2 miles on the bike so the lap power keeps me in a very small box all day.
    The first three cells would be mandatory the way I train and race. I could make a decent case as to why the last cell could be 'speed' (permission to coast above 33mph or be in the bullhorns below 12mph) or 'distance' (to follow my cue sheets easier while training or when to look for aid stations while racing) or 'time' (to know when to eat when racing or mandatory for training if doing intervals) instead of HR which is simply a secondary indicator of effort for me on the bike. I use 7 cells on my Edge 500 and have all of these displayed.

    I know Al likes to see Lap IF instead of Lap NP. I guess that is just a personal preference. I just like to see the actual Watts. I guess as my FTP has climbed over the yrs, I like to be able to see a higher and higher number that I get to target. I know that my goal Power now for the IM distance is higher than my goal power used to be for the HIM distance and I think that gives me a mental boost while racing. And during training, I like to chase big numbers instead of always just looking at say 0.85 or 1.00. There is no 'right' answer here. You'll eventually figure out what works for you...
  • Do you have an option for lap IF on your garmins?  My edge 500 only has IF for the whole period, so it's not all that useful imo. Haven't checked the 910xt. 

  • great thread going here and nice tips along the way too.
  • @Satish --- My garmin doesn't have an option for Lap IF;

    @Al--like your idea of IF displayed.  I used it at Pacific Crest and it helps..I'm with you, the less I have to remember or try and calculate the better!

    Thanks for all the great input, I think I'm off to a good start

  • Hi all, any cautions against using a garmin 310xt with a quarq riken? I am looking at this setup for IMLT and am currently a HR biker
  • Maybe I'm completely wrong, but at the time the 910xt came out I upgraded because the 310xt was not slated to include power data in the display. Maybe that's changed, but if not your plan would be a no-go.
  • 310 is fine for power. Maybe no np though?
  • Yes, sorry, that's correct. Thanks, Robin!
  • Mike, your 310xt will be fine for showing your power and cadence from the Quarq. It doesn't show NP, but if you do not include zero's, your Average Power will be pretty close to NP, so that's what I would do.
  • Just got a PM myself! I read JW's summary and wondering why I would need WKO+ or Golden Cheetah? Garmin connect and the free TP account give me NP and the other basic numbers I need to calculate zones. What would I be analyzing with this additional software? I know this may seem like an idiotic question.. hence that is why I am posting in  the "power for dummies" forum. Keep in mind I am very technology challenged!

     

  • You really don't need to get additional software with you having the two you mentioned. No need to get on information overload. Just ride and have fun. There may be a time where you're looking at something and hear about WKO+, Race Day or Golden Cheetah and you could go from there. No need to at this stage. Just ride.
  • Hello Power People, 

    my IMLT race is coming up and I want to make sure I am riding it right. my latest test results (5,10,20 test) are:

    5 min: NP 262w, AvP 262w, AvSpd 29.2mph

    20 min: NP 214w, AvP 209, AvSpd 23mph

    This calculated to FTP 203

    The advice from Coach Rich is to reduce power calcs by 10% due to altitude, so when should I do this when using the power calc sheet, before plugging in the watts or after the calculation comes up? I came up with goal watts of 120 which I think is do-able for a "comfortable" marathon.

    Does anyone have advice on what if any automatic lap I should use, eg 7 mile or 14 mile, so I can look at fresh watt numbers during the race? or do people keep the whole 112 miles lumped together? 

    Lastly what watt number do I use to figure out w/kg?  THANKS!

  • .7x.9x203= target watts.

    Can you manual lap? Eg, start a lap at each of the segments Rich defined for the course during webinar ... Along the lake, 89 to Truckee, thru Truckee, up Northstar, down Northstar, up Brockway, down. Total of 16 intervals, each should have its own expected NP or IF. If no manual, can you set auto lap to time not miles, as miles climbing will be a lot fifferent than down or flats. 15 minutes is better than 30.
  • Thanks Al, I ended up with a Garmin Edge 500 so I can definitely push the button at the key locations. That makes much more sense to divide it up into the webinar course sections. 

    Also unless I am possessed by the spirit of a pro rider I am going to be on my bike over 6 hrs so should I use .67 or .68 instead of .7?

  • Mike, subject to what Al (or any other WSM) says —
    Your adjusted FTP for altitude = 203*0.9=183 watts
    The first 60 to 90 min at JRA or 0.65*183=119 watts
    After the JRA section, I would target 0.7*183=128 watts
  • Mike ... Peter outlined the recommended IFs. For the flats, you want to see 0.7. For the long hills on this course, youll want to see no higher than 0.75. The downhills will be low, with a lot of coasting, that's why I suggest recording them separately. Over all, you might see an IF of 0.67-0.68 for the whole day.
  • Okay - I have done the power seminars through EN, read this entire forum like 4xs, and went to the Garmin Edge 500 forum and read it twice. I think I have got it.

    I just picked up my trainer bike from my bike shop after an overhaul. It also now has powertap and I have a Garmin Edge 500 that is currently charging. I've registered the Edge on the web-site, got a Garmin account, and read the entire owner's manual.

    There are some gaps in what I think I should know, like "can I get my Garmin to tell me TSS or do I compute that myself?" and "Which of these settings is Pnorm so I can figure out my VI?" But for now I will just play with it all in the next week or so before I start the OS.

    Thanks for posting all this great stuff. I'll be back to ask some questions with a few workouts under my belt!
  • Just played with my new powertap and garmin today. I did a "trial test" using the 5' and 20' protocal and have some questions.



    For my 5', I really was not sure what I was looking at and knowing I had a 20' test coming up, I did a NP = 272, AVPWR = 279. Then, for the 20' I focused better and I did NP = 272 and AVPWR = 272. So, using  the testing protocal, I take .95 of the 272 and that gives me 258. That computes to .85 = 220, FTP/Z4 = 258, Z5/120%/ON = 310 



    When I plug that into the EN calculators, it matches. My garmin roughly gets me the same for the power zones 3-5. But using John Withrow's first post to this thread, all I need to remember is: 220, 258, and 310.  Did I get that right?



    Thanks!
  • That's a really good starting point, but you'll want to retest pretty shortly. First, most people screw up their first (or first couple of) tests. You did not go hard enough in the first 5 mins which "may" have allowed you to outperform on the 20 min section.

    But now to calculate your "numbers". Since you did 272W in your 20 min segment, then your actual FTP is 0.95x272 or 258W. Then your 85% number is 0.85x258W = 219. And your starting point for the VO2 stuff is 120% x 258W = 310W. So use those to start, but retest in a couple of weeks. And on your retest, you should be trying to hit somewhere in the 310-320W range for your 5 min segment in the beginning... Then take 10 mins super easy, then kill it for the 20 min segment.

    To answer your other questions, I "think" you can get your Garmin to show your TSS (but I don't). I think I see mine at the end of the ride or when I upload my file to Garmin Connect. I use lap PNorm and realtime power during workouts and races. There are a couple of other threads on what to show on your head unit. Opinions vary pretty widely on that topic.
  • @John - thanks! Yes, I read the Garmin Edge thread and think you are right on about the TSS. When I went to Garmin Connect, I can see it there and that is enough. I am on the right track and will continue to re-read the threads as they make more sense the more I play with my new "toy"!
  • Great thread, i am catching up on a lot given my 1 year+ absence and trying to catch up. Imagine my confusion when trying to enter my 42 minute (2x20(2)) FTP test into the calculator... where can i find the new testing protocol?

    thanks!
  • @Scott - from the 1st test week of the OS:

    Bike Test, for Power Athletes ONLY! WU: 10' easy, then 8' building from 50% estimaged FTP to 100% estimatedFTP in 2' increments, 2' easy. The intent here is to get in a good warmup, so use your best judgement. Test 1 -- Vo2 Max Test: ride 5' at the best (hardest) effort you can sustain for the full 5'. A good target is 120% of your estimated FTP. Recover 1: 10' easy spin, stretch, recovery.Test 2 -- Functional Threshold Power (FTP) Test: time trial for 20' at the best (hardest) effort you can sustain for the full 20'. Recover 2: Minimum 5' easy spinning.
    Coach Notes: The average watts for the 5' test is your Vo2 power, used for future Vo2 workouts. Subtract 5% from the average watts of the 20' test and this is your Functional Threshold Power (FTP), used to calculate your power training zones. Finally, record your average heart rate for the 20' test. This is your Lactate Threshold Heart Rate (LTHR) use to calculate Heart Rate training zones
  • Super helpful thread. Got my powertap last week & have now logged one indoor ride (my test) & two outdoor rides. Still have a lot to learn but this is very helpful. Figured I'd post a comment to bump it back up to the top for others who might not know this gem is hidden in the bowels of the forums.

    Thanks for getting this started John!
  •  Hello all! I need some he'll with my new stages power.  The shop just up graded it. And still having problems. I mount my Garmin 310x to the bike. I set the watch to read 3sec average on power. When I ride the power picks up at 20, 30, 49 and jumps all over the board . The shop said it was cine because when he test  rode it the power was reading 100.  Gone back twice and still not working. I have my HIM race this weekend. Extremely frustrating. Any suggestion s. Thanks Yvette
  • @John - I just want to add another thought on the 1s vs. 3s averaging from the power meter from a 2014 experience.

    I previously rode with a Stages power meter and found that I needed 3s power in order to have any semblance of a stable reading. Recently, I switched to a Power2Max power meter (Stages was not available for my crank set) and found that the 3s averaging had a very slow response time.

    I wrote to Power2Max, asking about how the data was collected and transmitted (I also use Edge 500). Here is what I received in response: "our power meters update every power every second, though readings are taken 50x per second. The ANT protocol dictates that data is updated 1x per second and packets sent 4x per second. Data is very slightly smoothed. The slight (1-2s) delay in updating is related to the cadence calculation algorithm."

    I expect that every power meter samples the torque much more frequently than 1x per second needed to satisfy the ANT+ protocol. Based on my experience with Stages vs Power2Max, I also believe that each company has a slightly different way of processing the data before sending it to whichever device is used to display the power output. I am certain that there is an averaging taking place in the Power2Max whereas the Stages felt much more like raw samples.

    I 100% agree that some smoothing is needed to make the data useful - but wanted to add a little 2014 data/experience to the thread. Depending upon which brand of power meter is being used, that smoothing may happen before it is sent to the display. The 3s smoothing is a great option... however adding 3s smoothing to data that has already had 1-2s smoothing results in a display that significantly lags the RPE on the pedals.


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