The Racing Tire Thread
We all need tubes and tires and proper setup can make a BIG difference on race day. The intent of this thread is to:
- Identify and explain the best tire options.
- Identify and explain the best tube options.
- Give installation tips
- Identify recommended PSI
As a group we'll flesh out the details of this thread and then park the finished product in the wiki, which will link back to this thread for continued discussion.
See the chart below, from Slowtwitch here, measuring the watts lost to rolling resistance for a pair of tires ridden at 40kph by an 85kg rider. Don't look at the watts so much as the wattage difference between different tire selections:
- My go-to training tire for a long time has been the Michillin 4 Pro Course: it works, I don't flat, good traction, etc. However...
- Note the 11w difference between this tire and the Vittoria Open Corsa. You power athletes out there: how hard to you have to work to see an 11w gain in performance??
You simply can not ignore the performance benefits of simply paying attention to tire and tube selection, and PSI.
EN Recommended Setup:
Tires:
- Continental GP4000S (Note: I see GP4000S II. Someone please give me a link to the recommended model of tire, as it seems that the GP4000S has changed a bit since ^this^ chart was created) or...
- Vittoria EVO Open Corsa (link to purchase)
- Size: general recommendation is 23c for the front and 25c for the rear, though 23 and 23 is fine too.
- Purchasing: Back in the Day I was able to organize a group buy price for race tires but the market has changed since then. Still, great deals to be had out there via a Google search.
Tubes:
- Latex tubes (link to purchase, removable core here) not butyl tubes.
- Latex tubes are very fragile / not durable so be careful installing. Applying baby powder will help with installation. Expect to basically race with them and that's it, bonus if you get more wear out of them.
- They will lose air more quickly than butyl tubes so you will need to plan to inflate them race morning.
- Carry butyl tube(s) as a spare. You don't want to be messing with a latex tube on the side of the road during a race.
Recommended PSI:
See chart below, compliments of Tim Cronk
Any tips, tricks, or additional information to add to this thread?
Comments
I don't have the data for you but maybe you can search Google, find something for us, post it here and I'll add it to this resource? How often do you flat in general? I recommend you practice fixing a flat and getting faster at it.
Does anyone have experience with fixing a flat latex tube setup with Pitstop, Slime or some other speedy method? Does it work?
My point is that I consider flats be a rarity / low risk occurrence, given the hundreds and thousands of miles we all ride without flatting. So picking a tire that "might" save you from that 2% chance, at the cost of #xx watts in rolling resistance isn't the best choice.
A note for the dwindling few of us who ride 650c. Vittoria, Conti, and Michelin all make tires this size. Vittoria's are 20 or 21 mm wide. I have used those for the front wheel in the past, but with recent evidence re: wider may be better, no more. The Michelin's were simply too stiff for me to get on the wheel 4 years ago when I bought them. So I have been riding on the Conti 4000 [whatever the extra letters are in any given year]. They have not presented a problem with durability, meaning I do not have flats in IMs with them, replacing them once a year for about 500-1500 miles use.
There are NO 650 c latex tubes. If anyone has a source, PLEASE let us know, I simply ride the "light" Conti butyls.
For the best durability/rolling resistance combination, I have been using Schwalbe tires on my road bike and on occasion on my 650 TT bike. I'm surprised they are not included in the table Rich showed - they are a great tire, especially for training. Recently, Ultimo was the model name, but this year, they've switched to something different. They also have a massive line-up of tires for ALL purposes - commuting, Mtn bikes, tandem, CX, etc.
http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/2013/08/schwalbe-ironman-tires-clincher.html
For a tubular spare -- Get a tufo elite track tire -- Folds up as small as most tubes and only weights 125 g
Interesting stuff, Mark. Thanks. Like you, I race on tubulars. Vittoria Corsa Evo CX, 23 front and rear. At 320 TPI, they're unbelievably soft, smooth and fast. But I like the info on Schwalbe as a viable alternative (although 23 just sounds more comfy than 22 when 112 miles are in play, even though the real difference is probably nil). And I really like 125g spare idea (I carry a used Conti Competiton that probably weighs at least 2x and takes up the entire seat bag).
Re PSI, I've read much of the (often conflicting) data and recommendations. A lot depends on the rider, wheel and tire width, the terrain (i.e., flats or sharp turns on descent?), road conditions, and weather. At 150lbs on a high-end carbon bike and riding incredibly soft 23 tubulars, I get a very smooth ride on nice roads (IMAZ or IMGermany) at 110/120. I typically -10, each, for rough roads and rain. So, I would go 100/110 at IMTX and FL, where 80% of the roads are really good, 20% are crap. And when rain was forecasted for IMNZ on its quite sub-par roads, I went all the way down to 80/90. I train on much heavier 25 Grand Prix (not the 4000s) clinchers at 90/100 to soften the ride a bit and still not flat on every thorn or staple due to their bullet-proof qualities. No real science behind any of my psi choices, but they seem to fit within most recommended ranges for my weight and tire width. And they feel right.
Looking forward to the input from the smart folks out there. I would love to add a few watts the easy way.
Thanks, I've updated the original chart with this new one.
Edited first post:
Please hold off on ordering. I'm working with Wheelbuilder to get us special team pricing so we can buy through them and support our longest running sponsor. I'll update this thread when it's set up.
Actually, now that he's in his new shop with lots of space, I want to nail him down to an EN + WB Training and Racing with Power presentation hosted at his shop. Having dinner with him tonight, will see if I can keep him focused on one topic for > 30"
Great thread! Question for those of you racing on latex tubes. Once installed do you add sealant or not? I'm going try running latex tubes this year (assuming i can install them without pinching) and was curious whether or not adding sealant is considered a good idea or not necessary.
@Mark-On the installation of the latex tubes, I use lots of baby powder on the tube to help from getting a pinch. I put a small amount air in the tube, dunk it in a zip lock baggie of powder and then install. I've had good luck this way. Go slow and take your time. Be very careful with the use of the tire tools. I try not to use the tire tool but the Conti 4000S are very very tight going on a FLO wheel. I have not used any sort of sealant in my latex tubes. Yes, they will leak down and you must inflate them daily if you ride them daily.
I'm using the Conti 4000S tires with latex tubes based on the on data from FLO Cycling (specific to their wheelsets).
http://flocycling.blogspot.com/2013/04/flo-cycling-flo-30-wind-tunnel-results.html
@Mike: Thanks for stating how you change the PSI based on the terrain/conditions. Very helpful.
Now stupid question time: Do you guys ride at the same PSI with the latex that you would with butyl?
You need to carry butyl spares. CO2 will not work in latex tubes.
I always put new tubes in befor IM races. As long as you leave the tubes inside the tires, you can continue to use them for thousands of miles and they are every bit as durable as butyl tubes in my experience. BUT, and this is a big BUT, if you every take the tubes out of the tires, throw them away. Once they're mounted for a few days, they sort of adhere to the inside of the tire (probably worse for me since I don't use baby powder but I personally wouldn't trust them even with powder...). When you pull the type out of the tire it makes micro-tears in the side of the tube. After you reinstall it later, you might get 10 miles out of it before it fails or you might get 200 miles... But it will fail. So if you take them out and then reinstall for your next race, then your probability of flatting goes up dramatically from an original 1% or lower up to a number much greater than that. So why take the risk of ruining your race when you can replace both tubes for like $25 combined.
FWIW, I use the Vittoria Open Corsa's for races. They are awesome. Many people also like the Conti GP4000s, and they are good as well. It must have the "s" as these are different than the normal GP4000. The Conti's were supposedly tested to have better aerodynamics than the Open Corsa's, but I still like the supple feel and lower rolling resistance of the Open Corsa's.
My race weight is ~180lbs. I usually use ~110-112psi front and rear. If it's raining I'll go as low as the mid 90‘s. I think it's Tim Cronk who likes lower tire pressures, but he weighs as much as my right leg...
@Jaime - Thanks for the talc/baggie tip. I have latex tubes on order and i will try that. I also have FLO wheels and ride Conti GP4000s ties so i totally know what you mean when you say it's a tight fit. I haven't had very good luck getting the tire on FLO wheels without a lever, so i'll see what i can do.
@JW - Makes sense about not removing the tubes once installed. One follow-up question and i'm probably totally overthinking things. Once installed can you let the tubes go several days without inflating to where they go practically flat? I'm wondering that if they adhere to the walls of the tire does that mean you need to keep tire pressure relatively consistent to avoid tearing.
Yes I run way lower psi these days and its just as fast and much more comfy.
I'm returning to the states soon and want to stock up on less expensive goods as best I can before I leave. Thanks.
Edited the first post to included a recommended PSI chart, compliments of Tim Cronk.
@David: WB is setting this up for us now, should have something for you tomorrow.
Once I get outside I put a Gatorskin on the back and ride a Vittoria Open Corsa up front. Mainly the gatorskin on the back allows me to put the bike on the trainer without changing that rear tire for my indoor rides. I've got 4 seasons of rides (3 full IMs) on Vittoria Open Corsa tires and have never flatted due to road puncture. Only flatted in my basement from over inflation...Rookie mistake back in the day.
And wow, I remember a thread like this a few years ago, but it is always great to go over again. Rich's 11 Watt difference is huge and what if you are racing in a tire at the very bottom of the chart. yikes.
specialized Sworks Turbo as good as the best. within the +/- for the accuracy for the tests.
http://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/..._3982.html
I have never had a flat, for my 11 irons, on various Specialized tires. hopefully no jinx now.
note that Turbo Pro is a different lower level tire that Specialized makes.
Great thread as the right combo can save us time in races. I race and train with Conti GP 4000s II , hardly ever flat ( knocking on wood). My wife uses the same tire on the trainer and road and has had 1 flat since July 2014 ( this was 1 month ago).
Just to make sure I understand the chart in Rich's first post: The Vittoria EVO Open Corsa tires have the lowest rolling resistance out of any tire?
With regards to the air pressure chart: is the recommended PSI for rear tire? Whats the consensus on PSI for front. I usually go 5 PSI less than rear.
For the Smarty Peeps:
I've seen discussions about 25c vs 23c tires, lower vs higher pressure, etc. And I've set up my new road bike with wider rims to accommodate 25c tires, which I'm running at about 95psi vs the 110psi I've been running forever.
Anyway, can someone explain how/if these recent discussions of 25c vs 23c and lower(ish) vs higher pressures relates to your discussion here regarding race tires, decreasing rolling resistance, etc?
http://flocycling.blogspot.com/2013/04/flo-cycling-flo-30-wind-tunnel-results.html
I've personally had very good experience with the Cotni 4000 S and the II incarnation. They are fairly puncture resistant until about 1000 miles. When I start getting flats, that's usually the sign to change them out. I keep a fresh set on my tri bike and put the old ones on my road bike.
I am told Sawiris is a terrible public speaker... I heard he nearly fainted once.
So, sign me up for that!
http://members.endurancenation.us/F...fault.aspx
Update: turns out that the margins, labor rate, shipping, etc to offer a tire deal competitive to what you'd find on Amazon is too much for Wheelbuilder to compete stuff. That is, their set up for service the high end vs low end stuff.
So please go ahead and source your tires from elsewhere. Sorry I wasn't able to hook you up with a better deal.