@Scott Renick - I find the pace that the Vasa estimates is "good enough". Pretty close, but similar to treadmills, virtual power and/or "aeroness" of your bike setup there can be wide variability to real life application/comparison. Obviously in swimming, technique and body position will have a big influence as to how close it matches.
That being said, the power meter provides a reliable carrot/stick to train with, and is useful to train to and to measure improvement.
@Ian Kurth - Vasa - Looking at the WKO you just posted. I am in process of learning how to use it, I snagged a used one, put it at my GFs house to fill in some extra WKOs when I am at her place.. How do you use the Garmin 920 with it? swim mode? what mode?
What are the WKOs you are using? Why the cuffs vs the paddles?
Looks like @scottdinhoffer are on the same page as I too just took ownership of a used Erg. I'm still deciding whether it's worth the $300 to upgrade to the ANT+ computer.
Looks like @scottdinhoffer are on the same page as I too just took ownership of a used Erg. I'm still deciding whether it's worth the $300 to upgrade to the ANT+ computer.
@Phil Mills - love your coffee, so learn to leave the 2nd "F" off my name... I am not doing the upgrade.. I can manually enter my WKOs into TrainingPeaks. Curious if the used one @Stephanie Stevens picked up has ANT+ on it or not.. seems they do pop up, but you need to find a local one, shipping isn't even close to unreasonable on these...
waiting to hear Ian's response to how he's using the 920XT, clearly he's figured out something there that works!
@scottdinhofer - Done - and my apologies. By shear luck last Friday I found one for sale locally at a steel. It even came with the kayaking accessories.
If you contact Vasa customer support- they can sell the Ant+ unit separately (and might even take your head unit as a trade-in/upgrade).
With the Ant+, I have a specific "bike profile" in my 920xt (conveniently labeled "Vasa") with the wheel circumference set as 100 (per Vasa instructions). I wake up the Vasa, and it then auto connects as a powermeter when using this profile. The 920 then captures all the data as a bike workout. When finished and after uploading, just switch the activity type in Garmin connect, TP, Strava etc. Strava currently doesn't play nice as while it does keep the lap paces, distance, and time, it doesn't save power info yet (similar to the loss of power data on Strava when using stryd). TP and Garmin still play nice even after the activity change. This becomes an easy way to save paces, distances, power profiles etc.
If you don't have the ant+ version, I believe I recall dcrainmaker writing an article on how to capture data in swim mode on Garmin, which in summary was something like lap every 50-100m or thereabouts.
The cuffs are something I was just farting around with this morning... though I should use them more often as they force the use of the lats and emphasize acceleration through the rear part of the stroke.
@scottdinhofer - Done - and my apologies. By shear luck last Friday I found one for sale locally at a steel. It even came with the kayaking accessories.
steal is good, the prices vary and when one comes up they have no one, or alot of ones. I tried to negotate with my seller, he showed me the screen with all the immediate responses he had..told me i was "first in line." I found on in CO for $650, couldn't deal with shipping (would have been over $500 for pack & ship, so @Stephanie Stevens grabbed it. want those paddling accessories!
@scottdinhoferOkay, so maybe I didn't get it for a steal, as I paid $850 for the space saver model, but the kayak add and free delivery was worth something there. Especially, considering that I was "willing" to fork out $2k for a new unit.
I contacted VASA and unfortunately, they aren't offering a trade in option to upgrade to an ANT+ computer. They sometimes offer a refurbished unit at 15% off. Debating if $254 is a worthy upgrade just to collect data. The fact that the model resets the wko after 10 seconds of inactivity is a big reason I am considering it.
@Ian Kurth do you know of any drawbacks to the space saver (separate bench) model vs the bench on the rail?
@Phil Mills - No huge drawbacks that I can see... Comfort during longer sets might be sacrificed with the fixed setup of the space saver version. There are also some movements you won't be able to do as the original is built on a monorail, and the bench moves up and down based on the strength of pull etc. In addition, there are some "pull straps" available for the original that bypass the flywheel and effectively turn the erg into the original "pre-erg" Vasa bench. That being said, for the money you spent, I don't think the monorail set up would be worth the extra money, especially if space is an issue.
With regards to the ant+ set up - see my comments on the dcrainmaker workaround to collect your data. If that is sufficient for your use, then save your money. I used this method for a while and instead of "flicking my wrist" to simulate a turn, I set the pool length at 50m, and hit lap every 50 Vasa meters. Either way works. I find the data collection useful, particularly during breakthrough and/or testing sets when I can't see straight, let alone stare at the display to catch the power/pace numbers etc.
While I’m reasonably certain the folks in Olathe, KS had no intention that the FR910XT would be used on a swim trainer bench – it actually works just fine. I got on the VASA Swim Trainer and got to work. Well, actually, both The Girl and I used the trainer.
The only obvious caveat being that since you don’t do flip/open turns on the bench (well, unless you fail in a big way), it won’t know when the end of the lap is. I resolve this by simply knowing that roughly every 18-19 strokes I’m going to be at 25y, and thus I can simply pause for about 1 second, flick my wrist, and then it’ll record it as a flip turn. Just like magic. The LCD screen on the Vasa Swim trainer also tells me distance – so I can monitor that for when to ‘pretend flip’ as well.
Huge help @Ian Kurth @Phil Mills - reached out today, they will sell a refurbished ANT+ unit for $254. if interested, I will post the instructions. I am going to read up on the DC rainmaker thread and ian's, use this thing 1-2x and see if the data collection works or if I will ante up for the ANT+, betting that I end up there, I like convienence..
@Ian Kurth Thanks for the comparisons. I didn't think it would be worth adding the rail and the space savings go over well with the Wifey. Time to settle down and get to work on it.
@scottdinhofer I like convenience as well and see the recording of power numbers as beneficial to tracking improvement as Ian pointed out.
@Ian Kurth & @Scott Renick@Tom Glynn I've had the vasa at my GFs house, I haven't used it. She's been playing around with it. I am now about to start to use it as a supplement in my IMKY build.
I just swapped in the new ANT+ computer. 920XT no longer allows you to set up "bikes," you have to set up PMs.. I added the Vasa as a PM, named it and set Wheel Circumference to 100mm.
so far so good.
Next, to use the Garmin with the Vasa, do I remember that you start the Workout in bike mode and then switch to swim mode? or is it go to bike mode, acquire the Vasa as a PM and then start the workout in swim mode? do we use outdoor swim? or indoor swim? assuming indoor, with the wrist flick that DCRM describes.
@scottdinhofer@Scott Dinhofer - I renamed the Vasa PM on my 920xt to "vasa" so it is a separate option (scrolling through bike, bike indoor, run, run indoor, swim, "vasa" etc.). As a separate labeled "vasa" option, you can customize the screen you see (lap distance, lap time, etc.). During the activity, I hit the lap button for each interval. When you capture data it will be in "bike mode" when it initially transfers to garmin, tp, strava etc, and will preserve the power data. You then manually switch the activity type to swim afterward. You lose power data when you switch activity type in strava, but the lap intervals are preserved. All data, including power and pace is preserved in garmin connect and TP after switching activity type.
@Scott Dinhofer what @Ian Kurth said. I'm watching the VASA head unit during my swims, and using my Fenix 3 to record the data via Bike Indoor. For the life of me I can't find where to set the wheel circumference on the Fenix, so while it pushes my power & my laps to Garmin Connect/TP/Strava it shows up as 0:04/100 and WAY more yards than I'm swimming.
@Scott Renick I believe the 100 wheel circumference is set in the sensor options on the garmin for the vasa ANT+ head unit. So have the garmin acquire the ANT+ sensor rename it so it's easeir to find in the future and in the options for the connected sensor you can set the wheel size.
@Scott Renick I believe the 100 wheel circumference is set in the sensor options on the garmin for the vasa ANT+ head unit. So have the garmin acquire the ANT+ sensor rename it so it's easeir to find in the future and in the options for the connected sensor you can set the wheel size.
@Scott Renick Attila is correct, go to the sensors page under settings and there should be a place to define the wheel size. this should be under power meters.. that's what my 920xt did yesterday. you might delete the sensor and start from scratch also.
@Attila Matyas My husband has my hand-me-down Fenix 5 and I do recall that setting being in a weird place. I was able to set it up to work properly on the VASA I think you'll navigate to it as indicated on page 24 here: https://static.garmin.com/pumac/fenix5S_OM_EN.pdf
Anyway, I do recall having to look it up on the manual... I'm 90% sure that's the answer and no you're not (completely) crazy. IIRC it's not available once you're into the bike profile as that would be too easy. If that doesn't work, ping me back and I'll check it when he gets home tonight.
@scottdinhofer@Scott Dinhofer - I renamed the Vasa PM on my 920xt to "vasa" so it is a separate option (scrolling through bike, bike indoor, run, run indoor, swim, "vasa" etc.). As a separate labeled "vasa" option, you can customize the screen you see (lap distance, lap time, etc.). During the activity, I hit the lap button for each interval. When you capture data it will be in "bike mode" when it initially transfers to garmin, tp, strava etc, and will preserve the power data. You then manually switch the activity type to swim afterward. You lose power data when you switch activity type in strava, but the lap intervals are preserved. All data, including power and pace is preserved in garmin connect and TP after switching activity type.
Iam - just saw your WKO pop up on strava - add'l Q - do you manually hit the garmin lap button at the end of a lap & rest intervals/set? or do you use the DCRM Wrist flick method? are you soft pulling in your rest intervals? (there is some distance accumulation there)
@scottdinhofer@Scott Dinhofer - I renamed the Vasa PM on my 920xt to "vasa" so it is a separate option (scrolling through bike, bike indoor, run, run indoor, swim, "vasa" etc.). As a separate labeled "vasa" option, you can customize the screen you see (lap distance, lap time, etc.). During the activity, I hit the lap button for each interval. When you capture data it will be in "bike mode" when it initially transfers to garmin, tp, strava etc, and will preserve the power data. You then manually switch the activity type to swim afterward. You lose power data when you switch activity type in strava, but the lap intervals are preserved. All data, including power and pace is preserved in garmin connect and TP after switching activity type.
Ian - just saw your WKO pop up on strava - add'l Q - do you manually hit the garmin lap button at the end of a lap & rest intervals/set? or do you use the DCRM Wrist flick method? are you soft pulling in your rest intervals? (there is some distance accumulation there)
@scottdinhofer yes - I hit the "lap" button for each interval. The reason the rest interval shows some "distance" is because there is a lag while the Vasa flywheel in the machine spins down, and the watch captures this motion.
Because you are using the 920xt in "bike" mode, the "wrist flick" won't work - it will only work if using in "swim mode". I have found getting the data straight from the Vasa in bike mode and hitting the lap the most reliable way of capturing the workout.
@tim cronk - My experience is similar to @Scott Renick - HR is definitely lower on the Vasa than swimming. It is more muscular fatigue than aerobic. However, don't take that to mean that you can't crush yourself on it.. You can legitimately destroy yourself in a matter of minutes to the point that you can't brush your teeth. You can also do sets that will mimic a VO2 HR pattern...
I have a HALO board, and have used it some. It is a good reminder to have a high elbow EVF. However, I received some cautionary advice on the extended use of it, as it makes you much more susceptible to shoulder impingement problems. For this reason, I haven't used it much recently. There are forearm cuff attachments (as opposed to using the paddles) that I find more useful, and safe.
As a Vasa Erg owner I've been lurking this thread but haven't chimed in yet.
I've owned mine for about three years and I won't continue the discussion on it's purposefulness as I think we've established that the Vasa is a fitness tool and not a direct replacement for swimming. In a nutshell, it will make your upper torso swim muscles stupid strong.....just my .02.
Also, I've used the Halo since day one on my Vasa and would agree with @Ian Kurth that it's a great reminder to have a high elbow EVF. They make a model specifically for the Vasa but I have the older one that attaches to a bench and it's a little different shape or appears to be from the website photos.
I have a question for other users about HR monitors and what you're using. I have a Wahoo Tickr (chest strap) and find it VERY uncomfortable to wear while performing a wko. So much so that I bagged the thought of measuring HR while using the Vasa.
For those who are measuring HR what are you using or is there some tip to share in using a chest strap HR monitor? I already lay an towel on the bench prior to a workout so that's not the answer. I've considered a Scosche Rhythm HR Armband but didn't want to spend another $80 on HR data that I know will be lower than what it would be in the water.
@Ian Kurth I'm just getting started with the Vasa and man it's a humbling piece of gear! The time savings is insane compared to slogging to the pool to share lanes with the "walkers".
I have no doubt that it will strengthen my swim specific muscles but I also don't want to destroy anything. You mentioned using the forearm cuffs. Are you using them in lieue of the paddles to prevent potential injury or do you have specific sets etc. where you alternate between the two?
@"Todd Bray" - I use a Scosche armband for HR on the Vasa similar to @Scott Renick. I agree - chest strap is no bueno. I wouldn't even try with a chest strap... not sure the data is worth it, or even relevant. I only occasionally use it, primarily just for shits and giggles. In my opinion - it is not worth it to buy the Scosche just for Vasa use.
@Attila Matyas - Welcome to Vasa land! I agree - it can be VERY humbling the first few weeks. Stick with it through the adaptive phase... it does get easier, and you will soon be doing long sessions without issue.
I keep saying how much exponential time the Vasa can save, but the concept can be tough to wrap your head around until you actually get one, and integrate it into your personal life circumstances. Glad you find it helpful.
I started experimenting with forearm cuffs earlier this season. I tend to alternate them in somewhat randomly. The "feel" is much different, and the recruitment of the lats is much more pronounced when using forearm cuffs. When using the cuffs, it is also harder to "cheat" on the pull with the rear delts... the cuffs are on the forearms and the only way to move the cords is to engage the lats with a vertical forearm.
The injury risk is extremely low on the Vasa, provided you don't try and overhand recover like swimming. I know of several people rehabbing overuse shoulder injuries from swimming who successfully managed to use the Vasa pain-free with the "underhand" recovery.
I started experimenting with forearm cuffs earlier this season. I tend to alternate them in somewhat randomly. The "feel" is much different, and the recruitment of the lats is much more pronounced when using forearm cuffs. When using the cuffs, it is also harder to "cheat" on the pull with the rear delts... the cuffs are on the forearms and the only way to move the cords is to engage the lats with a vertical forearm.
Ian - I saw the VASA video on this that explains the why. In your opinion, does this(use of cuffs vs paddles) help someone develop EVA faster than continually pushing for it in the pool?
I started experimenting with forearm cuffs earlier this season. I tend to alternate them in somewhat randomly. The "feel" is much different, and the recruitment of the lats is much more pronounced when using forearm cuffs. When using the cuffs, it is also harder to "cheat" on the pull with the rear delts... the cuffs are on the forearms and the only way to move the cords is to engage the lats with a vertical forearm.
Ian - I saw the VASA video on this that explains the why. In your opinion, does this(use of cuffs vs paddles) help someone develop EVA faster than continually pushing for it in the pool?
@scottdinhofer - Not sure about "faster" development of EVA, but another way of training awareness of the large muscle group activation and developing feedback. Just another tool in the toolbelt...
@Ian Kurth - thanks for all the help... got my 1st WKO in on the vasa on monday and looks like I got it all working... I felt it yesterday (the day after) serious machine!! Going to start as a 1-2x a week supplement with +/- 1500 meters in addition to 3x4000+ in the pool.
Alright Vasa users, I just did my first spin on the vasa and have some questions. First, is there a way to keep the focus on high elbows? I am not really thinking about filming myself or a mirror or something, more a mental way of thinking about it that will help keep me in line. Second, when doing just normal "swimming" what setting do you use on the damper door? Third, should I see a strong correlation between my pool per 100 time and the vasa time? Lastly, should the board I'm laying on move a lot? I get some movement when I start but not much after that. I would assume it would be a lot more at a higher damper door setting, but was curious. My goal right now is to just bang out some distance so that I get in proper shape with it before I start to build sets and such. Is there anything relative to that I should consider? Also, is there an easy way to program in sets and the like? Thanks for all the help!
Comments
That being said, the power meter provides a reliable carrot/stick to train with, and is useful to train to and to measure improvement.
Vasa - Looking at the WKO you just posted.
I am in process of learning how to use it, I snagged a used one, put it at my GFs house to fill in some extra WKOs when I am at her place..
How do you use the Garmin 920 with it? swim mode? what mode?
What are the WKOs you are using?
Why the cuffs vs the paddles?
I am not doing the upgrade.. I can manually enter my WKOs into TrainingPeaks. Curious if the used one @Stephanie Stevens picked up has ANT+ on it or not..
seems they do pop up, but you need to find a local one, shipping isn't even close to unreasonable on these...
waiting to hear Ian's response to how he's using the 920XT, clearly he's figured out something there that works!
With the Ant+, I have a specific "bike profile" in my 920xt (conveniently labeled "Vasa") with the wheel circumference set as 100 (per Vasa instructions). I wake up the Vasa, and it then auto connects as a powermeter when using this profile. The 920 then captures all the data as a bike workout. When finished and after uploading, just switch the activity type in Garmin connect, TP, Strava etc. Strava currently doesn't play nice as while it does keep the lap paces, distance, and time, it doesn't save power info yet (similar to the loss of power data on Strava when using stryd). TP and Garmin still play nice even after the activity change. This becomes an easy way to save paces, distances, power profiles etc.
If you don't have the ant+ version, I believe I recall dcrainmaker writing an article on how to capture data in swim mode on Garmin, which in summary was something like lap every 50-100m or thereabouts.
The cuffs are something I was just farting around with this morning... though I should use them more often as they force the use of the lats and emphasize acceleration through the rear part of the stroke.
want those paddling accessories!
I contacted VASA and unfortunately, they aren't offering a trade in option to upgrade to an ANT+ computer. They sometimes offer a refurbished unit at 15% off. Debating if $254 is a worthy upgrade just to collect data. The fact that the model resets the wko after 10 seconds of inactivity is a big reason I am considering it.
@Ian Kurth do you know of any drawbacks to the space saver (separate bench) model vs the bench on the rail?
With regards to the ant+ set up - see my comments on the dcrainmaker workaround to collect your data. If that is sufficient for your use, then save your money. I used this method for a while and instead of "flicking my wrist" to simulate a turn, I set the pool length at 50m, and hit lap every 50 Vasa meters. Either way works. I find the data collection useful, particularly during breakthrough and/or testing sets when I can't see straight, let alone stare at the display to catch the power/pace numbers etc.
Here are those comments from dcrainmaker:
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2011/10/garmin-forerunner-910xt-in-depth-review.html
Dryland swim trainer:
While I’m reasonably certain the folks in Olathe, KS had no intention that the FR910XT would be used on a swim trainer bench – it actually works just fine. I got on the VASA Swim Trainer and got to work. Well, actually, both The Girl and I used the trainer.
The only obvious caveat being that since you don’t do flip/open turns on the bench (well, unless you fail in a big way), it won’t know when the end of the lap is. I resolve this by simply knowing that roughly every 18-19 strokes I’m going to be at 25y, and thus I can simply pause for about 1 second, flick my wrist, and then it’ll record it as a flip turn. Just like magic. The LCD screen on the Vasa Swim trainer also tells me distance – so I can monitor that for when to ‘pretend flip’ as well.
See…it’s all about thinking outside the box…
@Phil Mills - reached out today, they will sell a refurbished ANT+ unit for $254. if interested, I will post the instructions.
I am going to read up on the DC rainmaker thread and ian's, use this thing 1-2x and see if the data collection works or if I will ante up for the ANT+, betting that I end up there, I like convienence..
@scottdinhofer I like convenience as well and see the recording of power numbers as beneficial to tracking improvement as Ian pointed out.
I've had the vasa at my GFs house, I haven't used it. She's been playing around with it. I am now about to start to use it as a supplement in my IMKY build.
I just swapped in the new ANT+ computer. 920XT no longer allows you to set up "bikes," you have to set up PMs.. I added the Vasa as a PM, named it and set Wheel Circumference to 100mm.
so far so good.
Next, to use the Garmin with the Vasa, do I remember that you start the Workout in bike mode and then switch to swim mode? or is it go to bike mode, acquire the Vasa as a PM and then start the workout in swim mode? do we use outdoor swim? or indoor swim? assuming indoor, with the wrist flick that DCRM describes.
My husband has my hand-me-down Fenix 5 and I do recall that setting being in a weird place. I was able to set it up to work properly on the VASA I think you'll navigate to it as indicated on page 24 here: https://static.garmin.com/pumac/fenix5S_OM_EN.pdf
Anyway, I do recall having to look it up on the manual... I'm 90% sure that's the answer and no you're not (completely) crazy.
1. Is your HR the same on the VASA as it is in the water?
2. Have you used a HALO board?
http://lanegainer.com/halo-kit-converts-any-bench-into-a-halo-swim-bench/
I have the HALO board for the VASA but tossed it after a few times because I didn't like it. It's been long enough that I can't recall why however.
or do you use the DCRM Wrist flick method?
are you soft pulling in your rest intervals? (there is some distance accumulation there)
Because you are using the 920xt in "bike" mode, the "wrist flick" won't work - it will only work if using in "swim mode". I have found getting the data straight from the Vasa in bike mode and hitting the lap the most reliable way of capturing the workout.
@tim cronk - My experience is similar to @Scott Renick - HR is definitely lower on the Vasa than swimming. It is more muscular fatigue than aerobic. However, don't take that to mean that you can't crush yourself on it.. You can legitimately destroy yourself in a matter of minutes to the point that you can't brush your teeth. You can also do sets that will mimic a VO2 HR pattern...
I have a HALO board, and have used it some. It is a good reminder to have a high elbow EVF. However, I received some cautionary advice on the extended use of it, as it makes you much more susceptible to shoulder impingement problems. For this reason, I haven't used it much recently. There are forearm cuff attachments (as opposed to using the paddles) that I find more useful, and safe.
I've owned mine for about three years and I won't continue the discussion on it's purposefulness as I think we've established that the Vasa is a fitness tool and not a direct replacement for swimming. In a nutshell, it will make your upper torso swim muscles stupid strong.....just my .02.
Also, I've used the Halo since day one on my Vasa and would agree with @Ian Kurth that it's a great reminder to have a high elbow EVF. They make a model specifically for the Vasa but I have the older one that attaches to a bench and it's a little different shape or appears to be from the website photos.
I have a question for other users about HR monitors and what you're using. I have a Wahoo Tickr (chest strap) and find it VERY uncomfortable to wear while performing a wko. So much so that I bagged the thought of measuring HR while using the Vasa.
For those who are measuring HR what are you using or is there some tip to share in using a chest strap HR monitor? I already lay an towel on the bench prior to a workout so that's not the answer. I've considered a Scosche Rhythm HR Armband but didn't want to spend another $80 on HR data that I know will be lower than what it would be in the water.
Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?
I also use the armband for my bike trainer rides just because it's a bit more comfortable (and I have it as an option). Battery life is pretty good.
I have no doubt that it will strengthen my swim specific muscles but I also don't want to destroy anything. You mentioned using the forearm cuffs. Are you using them in lieue of the paddles to prevent potential injury or do you have specific sets etc. where you alternate between the two?
@Attila Matyas - Welcome to Vasa land! I agree - it can be VERY humbling the first few weeks. Stick with it through the adaptive phase... it does get easier, and you will soon be doing long sessions without issue.
I keep saying how much exponential time the Vasa can save, but the concept can be tough to wrap your head around until you actually get one, and integrate it into your personal life circumstances. Glad you find it helpful.
I started experimenting with forearm cuffs earlier this season. I tend to alternate them in somewhat randomly. The "feel" is much different, and the recruitment of the lats is much more pronounced when using forearm cuffs. When using the cuffs, it is also harder to "cheat" on the pull with the rear delts... the cuffs are on the forearms and the only way to move the cords is to engage the lats with a vertical forearm.
The injury risk is extremely low on the Vasa, provided you don't try and overhand recover like swimming. I know of several people rehabbing overuse shoulder injuries from swimming who successfully managed to use the Vasa pain-free with the "underhand" recovery.
I saw the VASA video on this that explains the why. In your opinion, does this(use of cuffs vs paddles) help someone develop EVA faster than continually pushing for it in the pool?
@scottdinhofer - Not sure about "faster" development of EVA, but another way of training awareness of the large muscle group activation and developing feedback. Just another tool in the toolbelt...