Peter Noyes 2017 Micro
Hey Patrick... I'm back!!
Since the AC100 back in August I have been a complete sloth and have done almost nothing 
I am signed up for the LA Marathon which is March 19th and it is coming up quickly. I don't have a time goal, just want to put in a respectable effort given my current state of zero fitness. My real 2017 goal is to be in good marathon shape for the end of the year and perhaps try to break 3 hours at the CIM in December. I also am getting a Stryd soon and want to figure out training with power on the run. I am willing to be a guinea pig.
Here is where I am at:
- I weigh 150 pounds. I weighed 132 in Sept 2015 for Ironman Wisconsin.
- I am watching what I eat and hope to be 140 on race day
- I am on an 11 day running streak starting Jan 1. I started 30' every day the first week and increased to 40' this week. Next week 50'
- I feel healthy other than just being fat and lazy
- For fun I did 0.5 miles in a run today at a 6:45 pace and it wasn't completely awful so I feel like I am sort of coming back
- The marathon is in 10 or so weeks
I hobbled together a plan:
It has 5x runs per week with a Z4 Workout, Medium Long Run, Hills or Track, Easy Run with some Strides and a Fast Finish Long run. The long runs builds up to a 2:30 long run and will probably be about 50 in the peak week. (For AC 100 I was over 70 miles per week, but with much easier running). I am also thinking about biking easy or swimming on the 2 off days.
What I want to know is:
- Does this plan seem ok?
- I haven't been on a bike in over a year, but I want to start riding it again as cross training 2x a week. Good idea?
- I am planning on using the 9/3 Stryd power test. Does that sound good?
- What sort of intervals should I do based on power? Treat it more like cycling with 4x4' @ Z4 or similar?
- Once I am back in a groove with following a plan and being a good boy with food, how long after the LA Marathon should I schedule another race? Should I do a full 18 week build toward a goal 'A' race marathon. Should I train for a fast half marathon after LA and then focus on CIM? I just want to be a fast road racer again.
Comments
My edits to your plan (since I can't edit it manually):
- Run with Power for three weeks, but don't use it. Just collect data (so you find out what your normal zones are, etc). Aim to be more dialed into running with Power by 2/13.
- Run hills, not track for four weeks -- Jan 23 thru Feb 19
- During those four hill weeks, do FTP work on the bike for Thursday (so FTP run tuesday, FTP bike Thurs).
- During those four weeks, do a long run of 2 hours...but break it up with walking (trails ok)...so first weekend is 10 run, 5 walk for 2 hours. Following week iss 11/4, then 12/3, finally 14/1...then you can start running with some negative split / intentions in the final big weeks starting week of Feb 20th.
A bit more gradual, but a flourish before you taper!~ Coach P
I have a couple more questions:
- Should I do a run power test on this coming Tuesday? Or should I derive my zones by running at different perceived exertion levels over the next 3 weeks and try to figure it out.
- What sort of bike should I do on Monday? Just easy?
- Does the mid week medium long run look good? Keep as is?
As for the Monday bike...first 4 weeks are just Zone 2, aerobic time...then you can transition to having a 15' or 20' ABP / Zone 3 push as you adapt. Still would be a 60' ride max, including the work.
Re the midweek run, I say you go 60/70/80, so that by the week of 2/13 you can do 90' for three consecutive weeks (vs just two). Just good steady running here please!
~ Coach P
I did my bike this morning and it sucked. 30' at 154 NP watts and it wasn't easy. At one point I had FTP of 260. Do you think biking will come back quicker than I originally built it up?
I did the 3/9 minute Stryd run test. Here are the results:
http://tpks.ws/YettM
3:00 @ 309 watts, 180 avg HR (5:57 pace)
9:00 @ 276 watts, 179 avg HR (6:11 pace, some downhill)
((309 + 276) / 2) * 0.9 = 263.25 watts
The funny thing is exactly 263 is my best ever cycling FTP. Coincidence?
I will still collect data and not use this for training quite yet but so far the numbers are making sense. An easy mindless run on the treadmill is 200 watts, or 0.76IF (also the warmup and cooldown power I did on this test). I read that marathon power should be 0.85 - 0.88 IF. For me 0.85 would equate to 223 watts, which definitely feels like Z2, it is work, but seems sustainable for 3+ hours. I now think I need to figure out exactly where my Z3 and Z4 lie.
I think I am pretty happy with these numbers. If I can drop 17 pounds and keep this power I think I will be in a good place.
I agree that your run numbers look really good. I like the idea of about a months worth of runs to compare. I suggest you label them in TP.com as Easy, Tempo, etc...that way you can compare the numbers retroactively across those sessions.
Interesting for me to watch the Watts go up as my HR drops as I get fitter (return to running)...
I haven't had it long enough to watch Watts go up, but hopefully is does for me as well!
I have a question on workouts for the next 4 or so weeks. I have Tuesdays as Z4 intervals. What do all the cool kids do for intervals these days? It seems with Stryd that it makes more sense so start speaking about intervals in terms of time instead of distance. Back in the day my staple was mile repeats with 6:00 miles. Should I stick with something like that and do 2 x 6' @ Z4 (6:20ish / 260w pace?) and increase each week, 3 x 6', 4 x 6'... ? Or should I fix the time and try to increase power each week?
Should I also consider doing some tempo runs in place of the intervals, like 20-30' at Z3?
Thanks!
Technically speaking, as your paces improve either your watts are increasing or you are simply getting more efficient -- either way it's a win. I would stick with the 2 x 1 mile by one mile as I think it's a good entry point for you with your current fitness, and easy to compare.
I say no to tempo right now, at least not for the first couple weeks. Let's see how four weeks of those intervals go before we make any changes.
Have a great weekend!
~ Coach P
Things still ok over here. I did the 2 hour run of 10'/5' with running at an 8:00 pace. It wasn't easy. Funny how I still have some speed (did 9' at 6:15 in my test), but prolonged running at any pace is tough. How are you able to take a bunch of time off and then jump right in with 4 mile runs at a 7:10 pace???
I just pulled the trigger on the San Francisco marathon for July 23rd. This I want to treat as my first real A race for 2017. I am hoping to really dig into training with power for that race!
In your case, it's a temporary problem.
Thanks for the race heads up..excited to see what we can get you to do!
~ Coach P
This morning I did the 2nd long run and it went much better than last week. I did the 11'/4' alternating run/walk for 2 hours. 6 of the intervals were sub 7:30 and 2 of them were sub 7:00.
Right around 7:30 is feeling like my current marathon pace. Do you think I should consider 3:15 my target for LA? Or is it too premature to set a target?
I am also finding the power zones are quite tight. 240 watts is a 7:30 pace, 256 is a 6:54 pace.
What is your timeline for reaching a full "run" for a long run?
~ Coach P
When I did the Stryd Test it yielded these Zones:
- Easy < 208
- Moderate : 208 - 234
- Threshold: 234 - 260
- Interval: 260 - 298
- Repetition: 298 - 337
After a bunch of running on RPE here is where I think my EN style zones lie:So they are fairly similar. I don't know how they map their zones to race efforts, but it looks like my marathon target is at the low end of their Threshold.
The biggest problem with trying to use Stryd for actually training with power is that there is no good way to see the lap power using their data field integration, I just get instantaneous power. I am really accustomed to seeing lap averages for training. I think what I want to do is still go by pace, but when going downhill or uphill switch to looking at power either as a whip or a restraint to help normalize efforts.
The LA marathon has lots of ups and downs so I think Power will come in handy there as well to keep my effort steady for the whole race.
How did you engineer those zones? Just running by pace and reversing it? Just curious! I need to generate something for the Team soon!
~ Coach P
Yeah, I basically reverse engineered them from several different runs where I ran based on RPE, so not very scientific at all!
My critical power is 263, but I feel like Z4 is more like 275. Maybe I have been running my Z4 intervals too fast? I wouldn't be surprised about that!
Maybe the best thing to do is figure out a way to map the Stryd generated zones to the zones found in the EN plans.
Yeah, I like the approach and science they bring to the data...but my bias (my job, so go figure!!!) is that there's some friction between those zones and the right work we want to do in our training. What's the 5k test average power and how does that work into your zones?
I'd be curious to see what you think of these zones...
I think you can be more specific the LOWER you go in power, as it's easier to control...and I like the idea of ranges to give you a window as run power bounces.
The calculator I made is online here and you can mess with the integer ranges as well...tell me what you think!
~ Coach P
http://club.stryd.com/t/stryd-3-9-test-and-30-min-test-comparison-help/1204/35
I signed up for a 5K in March before the LA Marathon. I will get more power data from that.
My gut tells me that that I am currently at like VDOT 51-52 which would put me at around ~6:15 5K pace, with power probably 290ish? If so, that would feel about right with the zones.
I will do that 5k / VDOT test in March, and then do some test runs at the exact paces as prescribed by EN and see what the power is. Maybe if enough people do that then it will be possible to derive some kind of relationship.
~ Coach P
One other note is that the guidance for Z5 could perhaps be higher, maybe 1.2 and up. When doing 40s hill repeats I am able to hold upwards of 350 watts for the duration.
Also, I am now done with a block of training. I did the last run/walk of 14'/1'. It ended up being a 7:47 pace total for the 2 hours. (So probably more like 7:20 - 7:30 running pace). I ran 46 miles this past week.
I now have 2 weeks more of big training and then the week of taper. Could you take a look at these 2 weeks and see if I should adjust anything?
Should I still do 2x1 mile or should I bump it up to 3x1 mile? Also, what about the long runs? I was thinking of doing like an hour at 8:00, then 45' at 7:20 and then 30' at best effort (probably 7:00 ish?). Does that sound good?
I also plucked some track workouts from the EN marathon plan, do those look good?
Thanks!
Looking good...that's some great running. Do you think you can handle 3x1 and the Friday track sessions and the longer weekend runs? Those are three beefy sessions, at the very least adjust recovery accordingly (monday off? Or FTP ride reduced?). If you don't want to compromise those sessions, then I would keep the FTP runs at 2x1.
At this point you are fairly run-specific. When I get to that point in my season, it's damage control re fatigue accumulation.
For your long run, that split is good. The fatigue should be solid in there, so watch your HR at best effort OR do that last 30' on flat / safe terrain with no changes.
Remember it is still early in your season, so we don't want to get too aggro.
~ Coach P
Yesterday I just did a super easy spin on the bike, 140 watts or so just to move the legs. I know I have accumulated a TON of fatigue. My TSB is at like -50 and I am getting really irritable. I am looking forward to racing this thing so I can get a little break.
Get this right and the rest of your year really starts to shape up!
~ Coach P
Here is the latest update. I have lost about 7 pounds since Jan 1. My pace is drastically improving, and I am feeling good. My power seems to be about the same even though I am getting faster. I guess this is a measure of improving running economy? Or is it due to weight loss?
Here are some numbers from running the exact same route once a week for the past 5 weeks. This is the 2x1 mile workout, and the numbers are the average watts for the whole run.
Week 1 : 230w @ 7:55/mi
Week 2 : 240w @ 7:28/mi
Week 3 : 239w @ 7:32/mi
Week 4 : 248w @ 7:14/mi
Week 5 : 244w @ 7:01/mi
It seems very different from cycling, I can't really chase power numbers the same way as I improve. It seems the power is somewhat fixed and instead the game is to get faster at the same power.
But I wonder if you are running the course smarter using power (downhills = faster to keep watts up)...have you smoothed it out like we try to on the bike?
Most of our run workouts aren't about chasing numbers...it's inherently too dangerous, say, outside the actual mile repeat areas. So I am okay with you trying to run a mile at 275w this week vs 265w last week. But not entire runs...that could really leadyou into a training ditch.
~ Coach P
Here it is: http://tpks.ws/UA5Ld
Basically, I did 19 miles at an average of 7:26 pace. The last 5K was done at a 6:30ish pace. Nutrition worked out perfectly, and that 6:30 section at the end was tough, but it wasn't a 100% effort. I could have kept going. My average heart rate was 160 for the whole run. The last 13.1 miles was done in 1:35. The NP was 238.
When I raced a 3:00:57 my average heart rate was 172. This makes me think that maybe I could do better than 3:15? Or that 3:15 is pretty conservative?
What do you think I should do? Target 1:35 for the half way point perhaps, and then see what happens?
My BQ time is now 3:10 instead of 3:05... it is very tempting to see if I can go for a BQ on this go.
Thanks!
3:15 for "a" marathon is really nice. That's 7:26 pace which you got.
3:05 for "the" marathon is really seriousl. That's 7:03 pace. Now you ran your last 11 miles at 7:04 pace, but to be able to run a 7:03, you have to be comfortable running 6:55s.
So, what I am saying is that a 3:05 is a stretch right now. Perfect day, perfect run...could happen. I leave it to you.
My coach voice says, run the sub 3:10 as an even or negative split and it's great confidence and lessons learned.
My athlete voice says, let's do this!!!! IF you were to be aggressive, you would likely plan on a 1:33:00 half (that's 7:15s for 3 miles, and 7:04s for the next ten). Then see where you are at. If you've got the juice, you'll be able to keep the pressure on and find those few seconds. IF you don't, you just ease back off of it and we take the data back to the drawing board.
I have to say, it's a nice place to be considering how "un fit" you felt just a few weeks ago.
~ Coach P