For Lactate Shuttle, is it better to hit the intensities as per the report ie 300W ON, 190W OFF and dial down the time of each on / off or keep the time in zone and dial down the intensity by using the FTP %age from the workout (i.e. 110% ON, 70% OFF which shifts my window to about 285W-180W)? Or maybe a bit of a mix i.e. try and keep the intensity high and drift down to ensure the total time is achieved?
@Julien P - Let me jump in here...these notes hurt my head more than those workouts!!! 😱🤣
I would rather you break the work intervals up...say 45" on 45" off vs 90" on 90" off...but do the math on the set so that you hit 6' of work (for Shuttle 2.1) in that first main set...this means going from 4 interval @ 90" to 8 intervals @ 45".
That said, another option is The Fade.
4 x 90" as 110% then 107% then 104% then best effort (up to 110%)....extend mid ride break by doubling it...then repeat. This second option capitalizes the first interval (rested) and the last one (Almost done!) and gives you permission to slide a bit.
Update from my end and a bit of a planning question. I am coming to the end of the 1st block for the camp and have continued to struggle on the VO2 Long (I dont think I managed to get one of these done with no interruption and because of that, I haven't got to try 4+ mins vo2 long intervals). The Lactate shuttle is more doable.
I worry a bit that I fail so badly that it doesn't lead to adaptation (in fact I tried a 20 mins test and was off my 90 day MMP curve); so I am wondering whether I should:
1) ignore, go to block 2 (which is vo2 long and vo2 ladder) but I worry that it's similar enough that I will face similar challenges
2) re-do block1 with the options to lower further FTP to get to some success, or reduce the interval times if the intensity is what I should focus on. As I am looking at IMLP, I am not sure when I am due to move onto OS and whether re-doing that block will lead to scheduling issues
3) adjust a bit, either try to put vo2 short in the mix to get used to higher intensity or the opposite and look at longer intervals (12-15 mins) and try to push that up little by little
Feels like I need to make some small adjustments if only because the ratio of failures is wearing me out but I want to see what makes the most sense at this stage.
@Julien P - feedback. I totally hear what you're getting at, and I know that mentally having those empty checkboxes on your roadmap of progress can be really challenging. Mentally and physically. I know that you're doing the work, and not seeing those results can be disappointing. At the same time, I know that you were doing good work that will make you stronger, I believe that the change is so significant that the adaptation will take longer to manifest itself… example, just doing a 20 minute test in this period of work will be a poor comparison
My preferred method of adaptation would be breaking up the interval first...so 4 x 4' could become 3 x 1:20" @ target watts with 30" easy spin. 80" + 30" + 80" + 30" + 80". What we sacrifice in terms of duration of the interval set and adaptation, we make up for by giving you increased time in zone for the workout and building that strength. I'm not sure if you've actually tried that already or not, but let me know.
The other option of course is to reduce the intensity across-the-board but I think that's also less than ideal.
Based on what you say above, Into entertain a transition to the short video to type work as a precursor to some of the long work. It's possible that you're right, we need a period of time at that intensity level to effectively prepare for handling the other workload and the longer intervals.
From the macro schedule, you do not need to move to the LC is in until January, so we're free to continue with the bike focus that we have now and the durability running. Is that OK?
Thanks, I didnt get what you mean in "Based on what you say above, Into entertain a transition to the short video to type work as a precursor to some of the long work." Could you clarify that?
I am doing ok on the Lactate Shuttle which is a bit similar to the 80+30+80+30 (albeit longer recovery but at higher intensity) so that could be a way to get there.
[EDIT: I tried to break down a 3x4' into sets of 80"; I could only do the first one ie total 4' of work - not joking when I say I am failing!. I am going to try to continue at it and see if I need to break it even further but wonder at what point it defeats the purpose. ie I wonder if 4' of work help in any way (or bouts of less than a minute]
@Julien P - sorry for the Siri fail. You need to put on a trucker hat, fill your mouth with ice cubes and then say it outloud. It will make sense then. 🤣
"Based on what you say above, I'd entertain a transition to the short VO2 work as a precursor to long work" so go ahead with the short stuff you are more adept at for the next block.
Two more homework things as you continue here.
Can you please start getting me HR data for these workouts? I can see power speed cadence, etc, but find that heart rate is a great equalizer and I want to make sure we are keeping it on track.
That VO2 Pwork is all about Keita's. There's just no way you're going to be able to push the watts at 80 to 85 RPMs. That type of RPM work it's perfectly from upper zones really into zone 4/threshold. Once we get beyond threshold we need a higher cadence to make it work.
Here's how Carl does it (2' interval). Note how he has high cadence for 2/3 of interval then this fast twitch is spent and and shifts to drop cadence and push higher watts that way.
That drop also matching the "ineverted" red HR line plateau. We can correlate that fatigue to HR and we should be able to do that with you as well!
Got you, logged one this morning with HR - broke the 4' into 4 parts of 1' and could get through it this time, I dont have any buffer to do more than that at this point so likely not a bad place to start.
My HR is always quite high (I did a 10k last week-end and averaged 177bpm over 43 mins - I break my MAF heart rate typically half way through my driveway) in case you are wondering about these levels.
I am making progress (I think). Over the past 10 days, I have got back to consistent success to the point where I got to feel comfortable dialing it up. Here is a quick log of my last workouts from zwift:
As you can see: dialed FTP up from 255 to 260 then 265. I am trying to do the prescribed VO2 Long (though I modify it to break the 4 mins into 4x1min+30secs), VO2 Ladder (I bring intensity from 140% to 130% to match my VO2 window) and I try to add a lactate shuttle too. The rest of the sessions are either FatMax or VLaMax which dont feel taxing to me.
To confirm my focus is going to be:
VO2 Long: try to extend the interval length (from 4x1mins to 3x80secs to 2x2mins) rather than focus on increasing intensity (which may come later)
VO2 Ladder: continue to grow rep count, maybe dial up a bit the intensity
Put back more focus on run durability - I feel I have dropped the ball a bit on that and this needs more focus.
Presumably I would continue with this mix until January when going into outseason.
MAF HR in driveway....🤣 So you are a rabbit...not terrible, but getting some adaptations there will be nice to make the harder work we want more manageable. Wondering if that shorter VO2 is more doable for you because there is limited HR response in that window vs the other, longer work that drives the HR up sustainably? Curious to hear what you think.
I love the progression here...and how you are countering the hard work with time at fat max Odelay max. That's perfect. Remember, if you ever get into one of those hard sessions and you don't have the juice, we back it off and then restart the next day. I don't think you're gonna be in a place where you hit that level of fatigue because our volume is lower, but listening to your body is important.
Yes to getting back to her under ability. Keep it simple to start even though it will feel ridiculous. Just one or 2 miles would be a nice addition. No need to run really long we're just trying to keep the familiarity of movement and range of motion in your running game while you crush your self on the bike.
Would be nice if that log table you had above had an average heart rate value as well...just a thought!
>Wondering if that shorter VO2 is more doable for you because there is limited HR response
Right... so you think I can't keep it up (HR I mean :-) )? I will see whether I can get that HR up for longer periods.
Another thing that I think impacted is my Kickr was getting extremely noisy, Wahoo replaced it and it was likely rubbing and showing lower power numbers than I was putting out - probably worse at higher cadence and may explain (some of) the struggle I had on VO2 long. That's very unfortunate if so, but in any case it just made me work harder which can't be bad.
For next year, my objectives are: IMLP (pretty firm); I want to target a sub-13 (PB 13:28 at IMMT). I think that's doable, I would need an FTP of ~260 and strong execution. Then I want to put in a marathon effort, likely in the fall. My PB is 4:08 from 12 years ago. It badly needs correcting and now I got a 5K sub 20 mins, I am confident I can improve on that and see how close I can get to a BQ (which is 3:20 for me). Unlikely for the BQ this year, but would be good to get around ~3:30. A BQ is probably the most realistic performance based objective I can target (Kona, 70.3 are for another life), so I want to see if I can slowly get myself in that territory. The positive thing is that even past COVID, I will remain 60% working from home which should help manage the training schedule.
I don't suppose any of that impacts the plan too drastically. Maybe I need to start putting some running volume or do the run focus OS, but with some BBC based workout twist?
@Julien P - hey, thanks for your patience as I catch back up again here. I'm really curious to hear what your experience has been on the lift with a new trainer, their tech-support is really good! Looking forward to the 2021 season I think it's possible that we don't have to start the artisan until January. I like the idea of you staying focused on the best bike workouts and starting to build some good baseline run durability for a few weeks. If we were to start the OutSeason sooner, I'd be worried about ramping that run too soon.
So a tentative week would be something like render ability five out of the seven days - 4 days 30 mins, 1 day 60 mins. Then BestBike WKOs as Tue/Thu VO2, Sat 90' with ABP, Sunday aerobic time easy. Only change there is to have you drop SAT if you are tired.
Run goals are to get to 20 miles per week happy, and then 25mpw by Jan / OS start!
Comments
@matt limbert One last clarification..
I understand the progression on the VO2 Long.
For Lactate Shuttle, is it better to hit the intensities as per the report ie 300W ON, 190W OFF and dial down the time of each on / off or keep the time in zone and dial down the intensity by using the FTP %age from the workout (i.e. 110% ON, 70% OFF which shifts my window to about 285W-180W)? Or maybe a bit of a mix i.e. try and keep the intensity high and drift down to ensure the total time is achieved?
Julien
@Julien P - Let me jump in here...these notes hurt my head more than those workouts!!! 😱🤣
I would rather you break the work intervals up...say 45" on 45" off vs 90" on 90" off...but do the math on the set so that you hit 6' of work (for Shuttle 2.1) in that first main set...this means going from 4 interval @ 90" to 8 intervals @ 45".
That said, another option is The Fade.
4 x 90" as 110% then 107% then 104% then best effort (up to 110%)....extend mid ride break by doubling it...then repeat. This second option capitalizes the first interval (rested) and the last one (Almost done!) and gives you permission to slide a bit.
Thoughts?
~ Coach P
Thanks it sounds good, I will give it a try
Julien
Hi @Coach Patrick , @matt limbert
Update from my end and a bit of a planning question. I am coming to the end of the 1st block for the camp and have continued to struggle on the VO2 Long (I dont think I managed to get one of these done with no interruption and because of that, I haven't got to try 4+ mins vo2 long intervals). The Lactate shuttle is more doable.
I worry a bit that I fail so badly that it doesn't lead to adaptation (in fact I tried a 20 mins test and was off my 90 day MMP curve); so I am wondering whether I should:
1) ignore, go to block 2 (which is vo2 long and vo2 ladder) but I worry that it's similar enough that I will face similar challenges
2) re-do block1 with the options to lower further FTP to get to some success, or reduce the interval times if the intensity is what I should focus on. As I am looking at IMLP, I am not sure when I am due to move onto OS and whether re-doing that block will lead to scheduling issues
3) adjust a bit, either try to put vo2 short in the mix to get used to higher intensity or the opposite and look at longer intervals (12-15 mins) and try to push that up little by little
Feels like I need to make some small adjustments if only because the ratio of failures is wearing me out but I want to see what makes the most sense at this stage.
Many thanks,
Julien
@Julien P - feedback. I totally hear what you're getting at, and I know that mentally having those empty checkboxes on your roadmap of progress can be really challenging. Mentally and physically. I know that you're doing the work, and not seeing those results can be disappointing. At the same time, I know that you were doing good work that will make you stronger, I believe that the change is so significant that the adaptation will take longer to manifest itself… example, just doing a 20 minute test in this period of work will be a poor comparison
My preferred method of adaptation would be breaking up the interval first...so 4 x 4' could become 3 x 1:20" @ target watts with 30" easy spin. 80" + 30" + 80" + 30" + 80". What we sacrifice in terms of duration of the interval set and adaptation, we make up for by giving you increased time in zone for the workout and building that strength. I'm not sure if you've actually tried that already or not, but let me know.
The other option of course is to reduce the intensity across-the-board but I think that's also less than ideal.
Based on what you say above, Into entertain a transition to the short video to type work as a precursor to some of the long work. It's possible that you're right, we need a period of time at that intensity level to effectively prepare for handling the other workload and the longer intervals.
From the macro schedule, you do not need to move to the LC is in until January, so we're free to continue with the bike focus that we have now and the durability running. Is that OK?
~ Coach Patrick
@Coach Patrick
Thanks, I didnt get what you mean in "Based on what you say above, Into entertain a transition to the short video to type work as a precursor to some of the long work." Could you clarify that?
I am doing ok on the Lactate Shuttle which is a bit similar to the 80+30+80+30 (albeit longer recovery but at higher intensity) so that could be a way to get there.
[EDIT: I tried to break down a 3x4' into sets of 80"; I could only do the first one ie total 4' of work - not joking when I say I am failing!. I am going to try to continue at it and see if I need to break it even further but wonder at what point it defeats the purpose. ie I wonder if 4' of work help in any way (or bouts of less than a minute]
Julien
@Julien P - sorry for the Siri fail. You need to put on a trucker hat, fill your mouth with ice cubes and then say it outloud. It will make sense then. 🤣
"Based on what you say above, I'd entertain a transition to the short VO2 work as a precursor to long work" so go ahead with the short stuff you are more adept at for the next block.
Two more homework things as you continue here.
Here's how Carl does it (2' interval). Note how he has high cadence for 2/3 of interval then this fast twitch is spent and and shifts to drop cadence and push higher watts that way.
That drop also matching the "ineverted" red HR line plateau. We can correlate that fatigue to HR and we should be able to do that with you as well!
~ Coach Patrick
@Coach Patrick
Got you, logged one this morning with HR - broke the 4' into 4 parts of 1' and could get through it this time, I dont have any buffer to do more than that at this point so likely not a bad place to start.
My HR is always quite high (I did a 10k last week-end and averaged 177bpm over 43 mins - I break my MAF heart rate typically half way through my driveway) in case you are wondering about these levels.
Julien
@Coach Patrick
I am making progress (I think). Over the past 10 days, I have got back to consistent success to the point where I got to feel comfortable dialing it up. Here is a quick log of my last workouts from zwift:
As you can see: dialed FTP up from 255 to 260 then 265. I am trying to do the prescribed VO2 Long (though I modify it to break the 4 mins into 4x1min+30secs), VO2 Ladder (I bring intensity from 140% to 130% to match my VO2 window) and I try to add a lactate shuttle too. The rest of the sessions are either FatMax or VLaMax which dont feel taxing to me.
To confirm my focus is going to be:
Presumably I would continue with this mix until January when going into outseason.
Makes sense?
Julien
MAF HR in driveway....🤣 So you are a rabbit...not terrible, but getting some adaptations there will be nice to make the harder work we want more manageable. Wondering if that shorter VO2 is more doable for you because there is limited HR response in that window vs the other, longer work that drives the HR up sustainably? Curious to hear what you think.
I love the progression here...and how you are countering the hard work with time at fat max Odelay max. That's perfect. Remember, if you ever get into one of those hard sessions and you don't have the juice, we back it off and then restart the next day. I don't think you're gonna be in a place where you hit that level of fatigue because our volume is lower, but listening to your body is important.
Yes to getting back to her under ability. Keep it simple to start even though it will feel ridiculous. Just one or 2 miles would be a nice addition. No need to run really long we're just trying to keep the familiarity of movement and range of motion in your running game while you crush your self on the bike.
Would be nice if that log table you had above had an average heart rate value as well...just a thought!
Keep it up!
~ Coach Patrick
Thanks @Coach Patrick
>Wondering if that shorter VO2 is more doable for you because there is limited HR response
Right... so you think I can't keep it up (HR I mean :-) )? I will see whether I can get that HR up for longer periods.
Another thing that I think impacted is my Kickr was getting extremely noisy, Wahoo replaced it and it was likely rubbing and showing lower power numbers than I was putting out - probably worse at higher cadence and may explain (some of) the struggle I had on VO2 long. That's very unfortunate if so, but in any case it just made me work harder which can't be bad.
For next year, my objectives are: IMLP (pretty firm); I want to target a sub-13 (PB 13:28 at IMMT). I think that's doable, I would need an FTP of ~260 and strong execution. Then I want to put in a marathon effort, likely in the fall. My PB is 4:08 from 12 years ago. It badly needs correcting and now I got a 5K sub 20 mins, I am confident I can improve on that and see how close I can get to a BQ (which is 3:20 for me). Unlikely for the BQ this year, but would be good to get around ~3:30. A BQ is probably the most realistic performance based objective I can target (Kona, 70.3 are for another life), so I want to see if I can slowly get myself in that territory. The positive thing is that even past COVID, I will remain 60% working from home which should help manage the training schedule.
I don't suppose any of that impacts the plan too drastically. Maybe I need to start putting some running volume or do the run focus OS, but with some BBC based workout twist?
Thanks,
Julien
@Julien P - hey, thanks for your patience as I catch back up again here. I'm really curious to hear what your experience has been on the lift with a new trainer, their tech-support is really good! Looking forward to the 2021 season I think it's possible that we don't have to start the artisan until January. I like the idea of you staying focused on the best bike workouts and starting to build some good baseline run durability for a few weeks. If we were to start the OutSeason sooner, I'd be worried about ramping that run too soon.
So a tentative week would be something like render ability five out of the seven days - 4 days 30 mins, 1 day 60 mins. Then BestBike WKOs as Tue/Thu VO2, Sat 90' with ABP, Sunday aerobic time easy. Only change there is to have you drop SAT if you are tired.
Run goals are to get to 20 miles per week happy, and then 25mpw by Jan / OS start!
~ Coach Patrick