2018 JOS Wk 5 Bike Thread - "Like you have a gun to your head"

scott dinhofer

This is the week we validate what we have or not accomplished. For many it will be a pat on the back, for some that haven't put in the work for various reasons, it will be a wake up call that we're one-third through the OS. For ALL, there is still plenty of time for hard work and measureable improvements.

For those that are newer to EN and Testing, hopefully the last few weeks have shown you hard, "hard" is. The test is the time to dial it in and do your hardest. The original EN testing protocal was to do 2x20 intervals "like you have a gun to your head." The protocol further stated that you should get off your bike with legs shaking and possibly puking   

I am looking forward o seeing some great results, questions and the always lively discussion

for me personally, now that I am done with my 1st ski week and can get in a solid three weeks until the next one, I am looking forward to ramping up my bike & run volume

Robert Sabo

What’s your plan for the ftp test tomorrow?  Zwift or TR 5/20’?  Or a Zwift race?  My only problem with the race option is are you going for best 20 minute effort or best one hour?  Or are you going to race and hope some 20 minute interval is going to give you a new ftp.  I think I’m just going to 5/20.  

Al Truscott

@Robert Sabo  A month ago, I did a race for my FTP test...it took me about 54 minutes - two London Loops. I rode it more like a triathlete than a roadie - meaning I did not try to cover breakaways, but I did try to stick at a steady pace with a small group, then hit the gas and dropped them on Box Hill. Here's a screen shot of my power (yellow) and HR (red) ... my VI was 1.025, mostly because I coasted a bit going down hill. I let my analytic programs use that to calc. my FTP.



But a flat race taking about an hour is probably a better way to do an FTP test on Zwift. The best? There are weekly "Contre La Montre" Time Trials (happening all day today), which a simply you against the clock for about 35 minutes, but knowing there are others you'll be compared to helps juice your effort.

I'm still scanning the races tomorrow to choose which one to do...

Derrek Sanks

@Robert Sabo - I'm planning on the TR FTP test due to the built-in 5/20 structure and I like how they break the 20 min effort into 5 min segments, which fits how I execute: 5 mins at current FTP, then increase power every 5 mins and all out the last 5 mins. My experience with Zwift racing is my power varies based on the group dynamics. I'm at Z5++ for the first 2-3 mins, then as I settle into a group of riders my power fluctuates ~ 25 watts above/below FTP as I try to ride and stay with the group. I know this is all self-imposed as I could just execute the race like a FTP test ignoring the other riders, but then that would be the same as doing it in TR.    Also, some times my best 20 mins is the first 20 mins due to the Z5++ for 2-3 mins. If you race, don't forget the 5' VO2 test and recovery. Have fun!

Andrew Lustigman

Newbie questions:

1.   Are we supposed to do both of the power tests laid out in the training plan (i.e., Test 1 and Test 2)?
2.   What's the simplest way to test on Zwift (including should ERG be disengaged).   

Thanks in advance. 

Bike Test (Choose One of the Following):

Power Test (If you own a powermeter)

• WU: 10' easy, then 8' building from 50% estimated FTP to 100% estimated FTP in 2' increments, 2' easy. The intent here is to get in a good warmup, so use your best judgement.
• Test 1 -- VO2 Max Test: Ride 5' at the best (hardest) effort you can sustain for the full 5'. A good target is 120% of your estimated FTP.
• Recover 1: 10' easy spin, stretch, recovery.
• Test 2 -- Functional Threshold Power (FTP) Test: Time trial for 20' at the best (hardest) effort you can sustain for the full 20'.
• Recover 2: Minimum 5' easy spinning

Bill Manard

@Andrew Lustigman Yes, do both tests.  The VO2 WKO pre-fatigues you for the FTP test, which is an important component of testing.  Yes, disable erg mode, otherwise you'll only perform up to its setting (rather than the best of your abilities); testing should always be your best effort, not a predetermined number.

Carole Harbison

@Andrew Lustigman yes to doing both 5 and 20 minute tests as written here (just not the power test AND the heart rate based tests). I've read the 5 minutes hard takes a little out of you to better simulate what you would be able to hold for an hour after that.

Zwift does have a "FTP test" (two versions actually) that has an erg warmup but also a built in segment where erg mode is switched off and it lets you hammer at will, but I'll admit I haven't tried it. https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/ftp-tests

Al Truscott

Andrew Lustigman said:

...
2.   What's the simplest way to test on Zwift (including should ERG be disengaged)....

Carole is right, Zwift has 2 FTP tests (listed as such when you choose "Select Workout" from the Start Dialog box). The better one to choose IMO is the longer one, which has the full 5 min VO2 effort followed by 10 minutes @ about 0.60 IF, followed by a "free ride" 20 minute segment when you do your max effort without erg control. All of this is programmed by Zwift, so you don't have to think, just ride. NB: For a Newbie, I would choose the flattest course available on the day you are riding, so you don't have to worry about shifting during that critical 20 minute segment - not being in erg mode, Zwift will make the hilly portions seem harder.

And, at the end, Zwift will do the calculations for you, giving you your new FTP, and setting it into your profile.

Phil Mills

@Andrew Lustigman - Yes. The 5/20 is comprised of a VO2 and an FTP test.  The 5' test adds fatigue into the test protocol in preparation for the 20' test.  Pacing is the key to a successful test.  See Derrek's pacing plan two posts up.

The 5' needs to be about 120% of your planned 20' FTP test target.  To low, and your FTP results will be artificially high.  If you hit the 5' test too high, then that 20' test will turn into a (bigger) sufferfest and potential end in a failed test.

I haven't tested using Zwift, so I can't give real world experience here.  I typically use ERG mode with the Kickr app.  

Andrew Lustigman

Al Truscott said:

For a Newbie, I would choose the flattest course available on the day you are riding, so you don't have to worry about shifting during that critical 20 minute segment - not being in erg mode, Zwift will make the hilly portions seem harder.



Thanks.  Very helpful.   In workout mode, I didn't realize you can choose the courses.  Rather, they seem to just appear.   Where do you set those for workout mode. 

scott dinhofer

Bill Manard said:

 testing should always be your best effort, not a predetermined number.

while this is true, testing is supposed to be a steady effort, repeated testing teaches you what number you should be going for. when doing a 5' or 20' test you don't want to be a hero in the first quarter of an interval and a zero in the last quarter of it.. 
you should get off the bike wanting to puke and legs shaking visibly.. this should be about the hardest thing you've ever mentally done. Screaming mid interval, or repeatedly is highly acceptable. 

Phil Mills

Busy week of Dr. appts and meeting has me doubling up today.
TOS Stage 3
https://www.strava.com/activities/1393560414

TOS Stage 4
https://www.strava.com/activities/1393619592

scott dinhofer

Given my week of skiing out west & my lack of training last week, I decided not to test. 
I decided to do the 2x15 wko of a few weeks ago. I tuned it down for the start, but used the toggle on Zwift to increase my target wattage through the interval and watching HR to guide me (along with fatigue in my legs).
This was a great exercise because I did not work hard enough and i know it, so for SWAGging purposes, I know my FTP IS higher than the WKOs I was executing.
Interval 1 NP 243; AHR 152; PeakHR 161
Interval 2 NP 245; AHR 155; PeakHR 167

I believe the right # is probably in the high 240s and should be executed at a level power from beginning to end. Will be looking to SWAG that up as we do 3x12s on the advanced plan next week. 

Andrew Lustigman

Completed my first ZWift FTP rest.. Did the longer one save the cool down.  256 20 min threshold for a 243 ftp.  Thanks to the team for guidance.  It was cool to get some “Ride Ons” from team members during the warm up stages.  Thanks!

Leslie Sedlak

I hate bike testing.......but I did it.....Admittedly, the bike is my least favorite discipline for many reasons.  I am a fop swimmer, so I spend most of the bike getting passed by the 'slower' males I beat out of the water, or alone  it's basically my payment for the run where I cruise.  Anyway, I haven't tested in over three years - and just got power on my bike for the first time - so after seeing the numbers people toss out there - I'm trying not to crawl in the corner after dying to get 5' avg watts at 189 and 20' avg at 161. My heart rate was CRAZY through the roof - and my legs were toast.  I had nothing left........so I am where I am.....but my mojo is in the basement - so trying to remind myself that at least i got it done this morning, numbers are just numbers, and I will crush my run test tomorrow.

Deb Livernois

FTP test completed. Not sure what constitutes "good" but I'm pleased with my improvement. I did this fasted with a ketone reading of 2.3 so plenty of energy. Heading to Florida for 2 weeks on Thursday so will be limited to a spin bike. Hopefully I can maintain my improved fitness. 

Carole Harbison

@Leslie Sedlak Definitely don't compare your raw numbers to those put up by much heavier men (or to anyone really!!). It makes me feel a little better to look at w/kg when the inevitable comparisons happen since that's a more fair comparison, and of course the goal is just to see improvement as compared to your previous numbers. I consult this table with some regularity to see where I fit in, kissing the bottom of the Cat2 numbers for now!

https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2012/06/watts-kg-on-the-power-curve

And remember it's only early February, most people haven't even gotten off the couch yet so there's lots of time this year to crush!

I also hate testing even though I love the bike, so I'll probably stick with my sweet Zwift race results from Sunday for my FTP for now. The 1 lap race took me about 18 mins and so I just kept the effort up for 2 mins more, so that seems like a reasonable approximation. Even though there were a few surges in there I think the number is a good place to work from, and a boost from where I had been. Maaaaybe I'll try the Zwift FTP test next week, or more likely another race. 

scott dinhofer

Andrew Lustigman said:

Completed my first ZWift FTP rest.. Did the longer one save the cool down.  256 20 min threshold for a 243 ftp.  Thanks to the team for guidance.  It was cool to get some “Ride Ons” from team members during the warm up stages.  Thanks!

congrats @Andrew Lustigman ! now you know what suffering is! what was the 5' number? assuming something around 291...?
what is weight? watts/KG... that's the golden piece of info!

congrats @Deb Livernois  - which test did you do?

@Leslie Sedlak listen to @Carole Harbison - this is all about Watts/KG... that's the number that moves you up a hill and determines your speed.. You can work the equation two ways, one is being as lean as possible, the other is more watts. Once you've really leaned up, then all the low hanging fruit is gone.. that's my goal this year. I peaked at 4.05 w/kg last year. Goal is to show up at Lake Placid with 4.35 or better. Last year I was 272FTP @147 lbs. Goal this year is 280 @ 140lbs.
I am also highly focused on 5 hr power starting at the end of OS.. the good news for me is that I am at the power now that i was at when the OS ended last year. 

Robert Sabo

Did the Zwift "long" FTP test workout.  Got a five point bump to a new all time high FTP.  minutes 5-10 were a little too low as confidence was a little shakey.  Got to keep telling myself NO YELLOW bars to avoid(on the Zwift graph) those little slumps.  I was happy with the last ten minutes just staring at my Garmin watching RPM (keep 90-92) Watts and NP watts and trying to keep pushing that NP up.  I was rarely looking at the time.  Was really thinking more time is more opportunity to keep pushing that average up. 

Deb Livernois

@scottDinofer Thanks!,I did the Wk 5 FTP test in Zwift

Andrew Lustigman

Scott Dinhofer said:

Andrew Lustigman said:

Completed my first ZWift FTP rest.. Did the longer one save the cool down.  256 20 min threshold for a 243 ftp.  Thanks to the team for guidance.  It was cool to get some “Ride Ons” from team members during the warm up stages.  Thanks!

congrats @Andrew Lustigman ! now you know what suffering is! what was the 5' number? assuming something around 291...?
what is weight? watts/KG... that's the golden piece of info!

Scott Dinhofer  

Thanks.  

The 5' was set by Zwift in ERG as part of the FTP (I did the hour one recommended by @AlTruscott
 so it was preset at 250 (based on prior FTP)).  BPMs were in the 150s.
Watts/KG is 3 on FTP/ 3.16 for threshold.  Not sure which number I'm supposed to provide. 

Trish Marshall

@Leslie Sedlak well done!  Women should never try and compare watts/kg to men.  Even crazy strong women are lower than their male counterparts in this area.  I was fortunate to have been taught this by a small (read low kg) but fierce and fast teammate when I started ld tri's years ago.  Her number was so small, but dang did she outride the boys when we finally were out of doors in the summer!  Congrats on a great test and setting the mark on your power numbers.  Kick butt tomorrow on the run! 

Trish Marshall

@Carole Harbison great chart showing wt/kg for the ladies!  Thanks for sharing!!!

Phil Mills

Strong work put in by all who are testing today.  

TOS Stage 5
https://www.strava.com/activities/1395004563
First workout where I would have rather completed a 5/20 test.  My face definitely looked like the Sufferfest logo.

Jason Baldomir

FTP test DONE!!  20W bump from my SWAG FTP.  Nice to have a quantifiable test now under my belt, but these shiny new numbers have consequences!  I swear 30 seconds moves no slower than in the last several minutes of an FTP test - Whoa Nelly!!  On to the run test tomorrow.  Great Job Everyone!!

scott dinhofer

Jason Baldomir said:

 I swear 30 seconds moves no slower than in the last several minutes of an FTP test 

I swear I've seen clocks move backwards during those minutes!

Gordon Cherwoniak

Great work on the test today.  I woke up with a very sore right knee and took the day off.  I hit it pretty good the other day just above the knee and was hoping nothing would come of if.  I was planning to test on Thursday so this does not really throw my schedule off but I don't like missing the workout. 

Jeff Horn

Not sure why but I was dreading this test all fricking day.  Tech didn't work right so my head was in bad place to start test.  Got 13 minutes into the actual 20 min segment and blew up.  It was a classic case of bad pacing from the start. Picked a number I thought I could hold but felt like shit.  Will try again tomorrow.  

Brian Quarton

 I enjoy learning from everyone’s experience. My target was 260 predicted by WKO4. 5’ target 312. Actual 309W. 20’ target 272. Actual 270. Yields a FTP of 257, up from 249. Now WKO says 270, so that’s something to work toward. W/Kg is around 3.3, so there’s work to do and it will come. I appreciate the reminder that 5 hour power is really important. 

Derrek Sanks

Great seeing all the test results and FTP bumps. Well done! 
I tested this morning on Trainer Road and FTP was inline with my recent Zwift race results. This is my first time doing the OS on my Tri Bike, and must keep reminding myself that I put out less power than on my road bike. Now, the goal is to see how far I can move that needle in this next training block. 

Paul Curtin

@Jeff Horn -- did you complete the 5 minute test?  You may not need to retest if you got to 13 minutes.  Go to this calculator page:

http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/MonodCriticalPower.aspx

Put in your 5 minute power, and what your power averaged for the first 10 minutes, then Calculate.  You'll get a pretty good FTP estimate from that