GroupMe + Forums: How to Organize the Short-Term and Long-Term Memories of the Team
Folks, so the little GroupMe chat experiment we started a year ago 🎂 is an official success.
We now have bonafide Run and Zwift GroupMe channels, with several others in the wings for smaller groups like races and Training Groups.
One part of the experience I don't want to miss out on is all the great knowledge that the Team has. To that end, I've drafted a summary of GroupMe vs Forums, and at the end put down some thoughts on how we can make sure both continue to contribute to the collective Endurance Nation experience. I am cutting / pasting the content below, but you are welcome to contribute in the actual google document.
What I am Looking for From You
- What did I miss in the doc?
- Where do we keep this document for the Team?
- How can we get folks to do a better job of connecting the GroupMe and Forums? Is it WSMs for GroupMe? T-shirts for power users? 😕 You tell me...
The only rules to commenting to the doc are (1) use a different color font so I can see it. Please note here that you are going to comment in the document so I know who is editing vs just doing a drive by.
Many thanks to @scott dinhofer for encouraging me to get this more organized!
++++++++ Start Document ++++++
What is the difference between EN GroupMe and the EN Forums?
1. GroupMe is synchronous and Forums are asynchronous.
GroupMe conversations occur in real time with all the participants logged in and present. Forums tend to be asynchronous, as not all participants are always online and discussions occur at a much slower pace. Visitors to a forum can log in hours or even days after a discussion has started and still catch up by reading previous posts. This is not possible in a chat conversation, as conversations take place at a much faster pace.
2. GroupMe is temporary and Forums are permanent.
GroupMe conversations last as long as a beer at a post-race party. As in, it’s already gone!!! There’s a great deal of fast conversation and topics can change super fast. Forums, on the other hand, are saved and searchable. You can find information inside the EN forum from almost ten years ago.
3. GroupMe is unmoderated, and Forums are moderated.
Our GroupMe channels are sanctioned by the Team, but are really run by whoever is in the room. This means that you’ll get a diversity of knowledge and opinions (great!) and the occasional animated vomit gif. Of course, the regular rules of decorum apply so everyone is welcome to attend and feels welcome to attend. Forums are organized by Coach Patrick and moderated, in large part, by our Staff and Wicked Smart Members. Forums tend to stick to a specific topic, while conversations in chat rooms can rapidly change, depending on the mood of who is there. Conversations are structured and generally have a purpose, with the knowledge saved for future members of Team EN!
Inside Endurance Nation, we like to think of GroupMe and the Forums as our Team’s collective “short term” and “long term” memory, respectively.
GroupMe is great for…
Smaller gatherings, like Races and Training Groups:
Get two people in a GroupMe together and you’ve got yourself the beginnings of a healthy community. As long as there’s some chatter on a regular basis, the Group will come off as lively and inviting to other folks on the Team.
Real-time Resolutions:
- “What does this workout mean?”
- “Look at how I crushed my workout today!”
- “Um, anyone have motivation for me?”
Urgent Notifications:
- “The training plans are in a foreign language!”
- “The swim has been cancelled!”
- “Team Dinner has been moved to a place with more beer!”
Socialising:
While social chatter is a rare occurrence on a Forum these days, this is the norm in GroupMe, and it happens in every Group, not just a designated #off-topic channel. Give it a little time and you won’t be able to avoid it: it’s about to get personal.There’s something about being present together in the same slice of time, the here and now, that lends itself to Getting Real. Getting personal on a forum feels more like broadcasting, made even weirder by metrics (Likes, Replies, View) that can unintentionally imply that Bob’s piece of personal news didn’t “perform” as well as someone else’s. Chat imposes much less scrutiny on your shared content.
Forum discussion is great for…
All-Inclusive Dialogue:
The asynchronous nature of the Forums effectively lowers the bar about as far down as it can go. You’ll get a much greater diversity of input if you solicit feedback from anyone who’s available some time in the next 24, 72 or 168 hours as opposed to right now.
Another little discussed benefit of “slow” asynchronous conversations (fun fact: very few things in life, especially in business, are actually URGENT) is that it encourages walking away from the discussion for a while, which is scientifically proven to improve critical thinking.
Large, Distributed Communities:
Forums have long since solved the “too many chefs” problem for discussion at scale. Hundreds or even thousands of people can discuss an equal amount of topics simultaneously in a Forum because (1) discussions are broken up into logical topic blobs and (2) long-form input is strongly encouraged over rapid-fire back-and-forth debating.
Knowledge Storage & Distribution:
The permanence of a Forum topic makes it an excellent storage of knowledge. Some will argue that forum posts become outdated, but we’ve found that when a particular solution stops working then Members will promptly resume the topic discussion until it arrives at a satisfactory solution once more. A great example of this is our extensive Race Report archive.
This is further helped by:
- Search-friendly content
- Discoverable content, helped by Categories, Titles, Participants, Top rankings and strictly linear discussions with minimal digressions and noise.
- Extra exposure for content with many Likes
- Marking solutions as the official answer
- Civilized discussion
So How Can We Make This All Work for Team Endurance Nation?
Done right, we can improve the social feel of the Team and deepen our shared knowledge across all endurance sports.
Lead by example and politely nudge newcomers in the right direction when they’re asking for guidance in the wrong place or in the wrong way.
New user: How can I do X?
Helpful user: Good question. Please re-post this to our the General Discussion Forum so that any answers you receive can be searched for and read by anyone else who might be asking the same thing.
Feed Forum Highlights into GroupMe
Important discussions in the forums should be shared into GroupMe so folks who are live can interact with the topic, and perhaps jump back to participate in the deeper conversation.
The easiest way is a summary approach. If anything new came out of the chat, encourage the primary chat participants to summarize it in a follow-up post on the Forum topic.
Move GroupMe Highlights into the Forums
Similarly, any content with lasting value to other members of Endurance Nation should be exported over to the Forums once the initial burst of chatter comes to an end.
Examples include:
- folks walking through a problem together and arriving at a solution
- deep conversation that is sure to continue for multiple days
- new user who asked a simple yet frequently asked question
Comments
The Run group me has helped to motivate me “to run” to learn what others are doing. This forum had a strong support system.
A little more relaxed but full of information & learning.
When I post I find myself proud to share victories & failures. Of corse my miles 🏃♀️🏃♂️😊
I think the way you framed the relative roles of the Group me and forums is great, thanks @Coach Patrick . I obviously enjoy using the group-me regularly. But I definitely need to remember to get in the forums and use them more often. This is a good reminder.
I have had issues linking back to forums from a GroupMe link with one of those bityurls etc
How to make Forums more user friendly. EN is growing and I can see the challenge of organizing information in an effective way.
At first glance there are so many categories that it's hard to know where to post. The "ask a question" adds to the confusion because the question being asked should be placed within the appropriate category.
I suggest all deeper conversations stay in he forums. It provides more input from those who don't go to GroupMe, plus it can be archived for future reading. If a topic heats up and goes deeper in GroupMe it should be moved to Forums.
Search. It can bring up lots of archived posts, which is great. However, searching on a topic can pull up different posts with each search. It's sort of random.
Dashboard. It competes with the forums. Comments , announcements about webinars and podcasts, etc., should also be in the forums.
One of the biggest benefits of EN is the collective body of knowledge. Being able to access it quickly is important. There is some really good stuff in the archived forums and Wiki. For example here's a good discussion from 2014 on swimming in OS https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/17396/swimming-in-the-outseason
I agree with @Robert Sabo . Often the links to the forums that people post in Group Me do not work for me. I'm sure it has something to do with my device settings, but it is a barrier. Thanks for pointing that out Robert!
To expand on what @Sheila Leard said above, maybe a future functionality request for searching in the forums??
I'd like to EASILY find forum strings I created, ones that I've recently commented on (say within last day, and also within last 5 days), and ones that I'm subscribed to (and have the ability to unsubscribe from when found).
@Scott Alexander - If you click on your name, beside your picture at the top of the page you will go to your profile/activity page down the right side is a 'threads' and 'comments' link (seek picture below) these will take you to the forum topics you have created and one's you've commented on.
Below is your threads link
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/profile/discussions/Scott%20Alexander
The flag/banner icon (notifications) thrid icon to the right of your name (also see below) at the top of the page will take you to the topics that you have bookmarked (I believe this is what you are meaning by subscribed to). Here you can unsuscribe to those you don't want anymore.
Just one forum category would do the trick.
To me the biggest problem is everything is spread out all over the place.... Right now in my browser the tabs read , EN Dashboard, EN Forums, GroupMe , STRAVA, Training Peaks, ZwiftPower, FinalSurge, STRYD,FB, Garmin(yes every now and then I even use Garmin.... and thats just endurance stuff .... Of Course there are Apps for all of those and lets not forget the WKO4 program, and I dont even use all the other SM like Twitter,Instagram, etc....
What I love about the forums is that fact it lives forever. I go back to read my own stuff. Accountability , documentation, and real learning occurs there. How to pick up the participation is beyond me.
The Document captures solutions very well, such as sending a weekly Forum summary of the most active threads. I've seen other Forums do this and it's nice to just click on the threads of interest to you.
Due to work schedules, personal styles, etc., not everyone stays "connected" to their smartphones and engage in GroupMe. Likewise there are people who can't/don't take the time to read or search the Forums. With the ability to follow topics/threads and receive e-mails when new comments or topics are posted, actually makes keeping up with the Forums and contributing very easy. Maybe people don't know about this feature?
There are ~130 members in the Zwfit Chat and 110 in the Run groups...15% of the team? Let GroupMe continue to be for day to day (minute to minute) banter, smack talk, and quick question/answers. GroupMe is great for race week, OS, training camps, etc.
Get rid of the Dashboard, and replace it with the "Recent Threads" page and a link to GroupMe Run, Bike Chats and Event Chats. (Maybe the previous several hours of GroupMe Chats can be displayed there???) Replace the "Zwift Chat" title with something broader related to biking. One stop shopping...
Agreed @Al Truscott I rarely look at the Dash, and if I do I can scroll a month in a minute. Recent threads main page great idea.
@Coach Patrick - looks like a lot of feedback here.. My $.02 that I told you a long time ago is that you have a web based business. it would be ideal if someone could create an "EN command center" which is what the dashboard is or more appropriately was. Whatever the technology is behind that, it is over ten years old at this point and has never been updated.
if you get rid of the dashboard, you force people to post questions in group me or les forums, particularly the Q&A forum. your "how to EN" document given to newbies and frankly to be pushed out to existing members in January every year should include this. WSMs who get a $ break for being WSMs should be your Groupme/forum pot stirrers AND police to get people to post per the accepted and desired norms.
As for @tim cronk 's list of apps.. some of those are EN controlled, some are out of your control, but dashboard/forums/groupme/FS are all in your control. Personally, and I realize it's a greater cost, I'd rather have my workouts delivered by TP than in FS... TP is so much more advanced and accepted.
Aside from that TIm needs to complain to TP to do a better job of getting STRYD data into their program so he can close his STRYD tab.
I also think that if we can create a power users document that highlights what @Derrek Sanks describes in forum usage (I don't get emails on followed threads and likely should) that would help everyone use it better. Lastly, I am 99% sure that vanillaforums has a mobile app. Do we have use of that? if, not we should. A forum with a mobile app is mandatory today. That would get some of this info easily out of the groupme and into the forums. That said, I DO think the mobile web version of vanilla is excellent.
OMG...I have some homework to do this week!
There is some good stuff here, some impossible (doesn't exist stuff) and some basic stuff...I'll try to parse it all.
Real Quick Note, if you are linking to the forum post from anywhere outside of the forums, then you need to include some code. This is because our forums authenticate you with your EN membership.
The code is sso?Target=/ And it goes right after the ".com" piece of the URL.
So for To link to the Official Coach Forum, the Link would look like this: https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/sso?Target=/Categories/micro-thread-forum
So if you have a bad link, you can just add that sso?Target=/ code and it will let you into the forums.
Yes! Forum organization and search for the win, @tim cronk and @Sheila Leard
I like the Dashboard. The problem seems to be with keeping it timely. Surely there are some team announcements or upcoming chats/webinars/races to post?
@Coach Patrick : based on my reading, the Group Me / Forum document is a clear and concise summary of where you are headed with these tools.
What keeps me in 'the haus' , in other words, where I see the value that justifies my monthly fee, is the depth of the education and expertise offered by Forum posts, WSM,s race plans, race prep webinars, coach chats, etc. The collective wisdom, knowledge and experience is a game changer. More than anything else, the educational resources and collective wisdom taught me how to race. So please, please, please, however you design the integration of Group Me and Forums, please don't make it more complicated to access the educational resources. The available information is already overwhelming for people with very little time and adding more with Group Me could get out of hand quickly.
I echo much of what @Sheila Leard about the structure of the Dashboard and Forums. I use the dashboard as a landing spot into the haus to get caught up on the goings on and then to navigate to other areas of the web site. Would be great it that also had the team calendar or easy access to it. I like the Dashboard as a high level summary of what is going on. However, I primarily use the email notifications of 'Recent Threads' on my phone to stay informed about topics and then go into the forum posts for a deeper dive into the thread. I don't pay much attention to the Strava feed on the Dashboard. Any ideas to make the structure and navigation of the Forums from within an educational / self coached perspective would be welcome, as well as a more useful high level landing page (Dashboard) that provides an overview and/or links to what is going on inside the team. Perhaps a landing page that provides for general announcements, team calendar, overview of where to find stuff and navigate the site, links to FS blog and help and provides a summary of the most popular -- trending -- Forum posts of the day and/or week would save a lot of time.
I use Group Me for race day and for keeping up with Zwift events. I understand the social aspect of it, but I just don't have the time to get engaged with the chatting. I definitely need it for race day info and communication.
I'm not a fan of tech...it doesn't like me and I don't like it back lol. I don't like to change much once I've figured it out in my noggin, and I know how to get most of what I need in the forums. Sadly, I KNOW a lot of great info could be of use by many lives in the group me app. But I don't have the desire to seek it out. My learning is still done in the forums.
I miss the IM/HIM race specific forums too. I raced the HIM team race last year, and while group me was great close to race time, there was zero chatter during the race build. Pretty much same for IMKY. Great to organize a team lunch, chatter about weather race week, but not really during the build. After having OS support and feedback from the team, it was a nice transition to working towards your race with teammates in the forums. I miss it. A lot.
Generally I feel less connected to my EN teammates due to so many using group me and that I don't.
I have started to use final surge and it is getting a bit easier to understand/work with. I like @scott dinhofer prefer TP, but I have no choice, so FS it is.
For me I enjoy the forums for the technical aspect of training. To ensure I only log in when new topics are posted, I bookmarked (Ultra running, race reports and plans) these and I receive an email when something new is post in that section.
I am a big groupme user
As for the dashboard, I never connect through it as I bookmarked FS and only get in forums when receiving notifications
I am relatively knew to the team but here are a few of my thoughts. I do find that the website is due for a face lift. It is a little old school, not mobile friendly, a lot of links are broken, and it can be cumbersome to use. But once you get used to it, it is doable.
I am in three groupme chats and do very much enjoy them. However, as much as I try to keep up with the conversations there is a lot of chatter and I miss quite a bit. Once the conversation has passed there is no getting back at the information. That is where the forums step in. I like being able to check the forums at my convenience, knowing that they are not going anywhere and I wont miss anything. I love the groupme for socializing, seeing what people are up to, meeting up in zwift, and any short lived conversations. I just don't want to see it overtake the forums and we lose that long running base of information that makes the team so powerful.
personally like things in one place. don't have the time to scatter myself over a bunch of different platforms. I like the forums.
and need to make things simple and easy. really shouldn't have to be entering security code depending on which device I am using.
I like landing on the Dashboard to check in with what’s happening with the team in general.
I need and use the forums for education and getting questions answered and am also used to communicating through them.
i like GroupMe for race group communications (i.e. where are we going for dinner) but feel overwhelmed by the barrage of messages blowing up my phone. I can’t keep up on a daily basis and am not really participating. I feel, in some ways,like all these different ways to connect are breaking the team up. But perhaps that’s my imagination.
im not really technology savvy can’t comment on how to improve anything. I’m with Trish Marshall, once I’m used to something I’m comfortable sticking with it.
I am big GroupMe user (I may have a problem). I do not go into the forums as much. The forums seem to work better from a PC/Laptop (I hate typing on a smart phone) and I rarely use my laptop at home for anything other than Zwift. Every now and then (like today) I get some free time at work and I check the forums. I realize there are a lot of active EN members in the forums that I have no interaction, because they are not active in the GroupMe.
I think the Zwift GroupMe chat is the main team chat, and people who are not into Zwift may avoid it. I recommend changing the name of that chat to "Endurance Nation Chat" or something similar, or start a new team chat. Also, I agree with @Al Truscott and @tim cronk comments on the dashboard.
Great topic. I have been following this for the past week and thinking long and hard. Walking away and coming back, like the doc notes. I believe this is bigger than managing where the EN information stored. It is about how EN as a business will be run in the future. P’s challenge here is not unique. And NOT easy.
I am the operations guy for a 4 location bike shop in Central Oregon. This biggest bike shop in Bend, by far. Well, 3 bike shops and a rack shop. :-) Our customers are increasingly hitting us up on Facebook and Instagram with questions, pricing, etc. We ask them to call a store so our sales folks can work with them and they respond back with more questions. We ask for their phone number so we can call and discuss and they ask more questions. They don’t want to call. They wanna "chat." And over 50% of our website traffic is now mobile so they want to engage that way. We have to rethink our customer engagement.
Also of note, a couple of guys here in Bend started a MTB trail report site called BendTrails.org. It is the place to go to get trail condition updates in Central Oregon. I used to visit at least 3 times a week. Then they started a Facebook group and I haven’t been to the website since. Almost all comms are done through Facebook now. People posting pics, asking questions about particular trails, etc. in near real-time and on the Facebook app they use everyday. And POOOF! All the website traffic has probably dropped (you can feel it when you visit now) so I bet their ad revenue is going to get pummeled. As a sponsor of the site, I am highly interested in the unique visitor count when we chat in spring to re-up our deal.
@Coach Patrick is a SUPER SMART guy and I bet he has been thinking long and hard about this. :-) It’s a business problem with changing customer needs/wants/habits. I believe he will make the correct moves to meet those needs/wants/habits as EN grows into the future..
I will move on.
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Personally, I believe the overall value of EN is in the forums much like Bend Trails (though BT is more immediate information). And unfortunately we are losing a lot that data to social media groups (GroupMe, FB groups, etc.). After being away from EN for a bit and reengaging in November, I was shocked how quiet the Dashboard and forums were. I even posted that feeling in the forums just to test if I would get any feedback? Crickets. (see below) I even posted the same on the Dashboard and the response I got was (and I paraphrase), “Have you seen the GroupMe’s? They are blowing up.” Being “new” again I had no idea where to go to see them. :-(. I was lost. No, really. I. Was. Lost.
I don't have any answers. But it has had me thinking.
The document is great for folks to understand which platform is used for what. But will it get lost in the Wiki? Does Brenda add it to her on boarding phone call. Will people remember?
I dunno. But I bet this would be an awesome Harvard Business case study topic.
Thanks for listening.
~ Stark
@John Stark An absolutely brilliant post and one I have been waiting for. I have been quietly observing your re-engagement into EN and the lack of response (sorry I held back) I had a feeling you were fishing. I have a similar story about a local group I belong to Tucson Trail Runners a website exists but any and all communication and scheduling weekly group runs and races are done near real time on the TTR FB Group. Big reason I broke down and opened a FB account was for Race Communication since some of them had stopped communicating via any other way. Anyway I know a bit about your background and past in EN so I think your comments on the evolution of the EN business will be duly noted.
Thank you all for being part of this discussion...It's great to see you all contribute, and I agree...the task isn't an easy one. From an operations standpoint, we have to figure out where to spend our time to reach all of you. And because of the diversity of tools that Janyne mentioned, I have multiple staff posting the same thing in multiple places just to make sure people see it. I realize, this is a problem largely brought on by our own official approach to using technology, but I agree it has to be consolidated.
This will definitely require resources (time and money), and I want to think through with you guys on how to do it the right way.
Here's how I recommend we proceed:
Any other input before I start this process?
~ Coach P
-Don't dumb things down in order to be simple. Sometimes things are complex and they require a full paragraph with thoughts that are clearly laid out. Preserve this where possible.
-get a clear distinction in your thinking between 'engagement' and 'participation'
-if a feedback discussion happens, I'm going to play a drinking game where I take a shot every time someone uses the phrase "drinking from a firehose"
@Coach Patrick - suggest you create an ad hoc steering committee on this. People that are tech savvy, can help evaluate platforms and may actually do that as part of their day job... (@John Stark ) for example and those that are power users of the EN platforms. maybe 4-6 people.
schedule a real time discussion like the office hours where a discussion can ensure over coffee one evening a month, or every two weeks initially. Your greatest asset is your customers and your ability to listen to them. one thing is clear, an easy to use solution that can be used on phones is paramount.
only problem with the groupme is it 'bings' when I'm not wanting it to ... a lot! I like the forums as I can access what I need when I have time to do so... I like the groupme for races to keep in touch... it might be fun for the zwift group... you all crack me up! but it is a nuisance when you're not doing the activity... at the moment.
@Patricia Rosen You know you can turn off Notifications from specific groupme chats, while still getting notified if someone does @Patti from Cincinnati thing. Just fiddle around with the settings, you'll find it (its different in tablet, phone and computer versions.)