50+ AGers and Recovery
To my fellow 50+ brethren,
I've found in EN's OS protocol that I seem to recover well if I stick to exactly, and no more, of what the plan calls for. I've tried to do "extra" in the past and found that it buried me.
Any thoughts on how you focus on recovery to ensure great workouts ?
Bill
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Bill, I have found the same. Only do the OS workouts and no more. The intensity is insidious. I go along fine and then WHAM! it smacks me. Over the past month (I'm with the Oct group) I have only done the workouts and nothing more and find that I am handlng the intensity much better. Not sure this is due to age or just the amount of high intensity work we are doing. In past OS outings, I did the bike but not as much on the run and seemed to be fine. With following the bike and run to the letter it is a lot!
How do you guys manage the rest intervals. I'm in the OS Dec group and wonder when the plan calls for 2 x 1/2 mi (3'), then 2 x 1 mi (5') do you take 3' rest or 5' rest between the 1/2 mile and 1 mile sets.
Also, how do you manage the core work? Any push-ups or pull-ups?
George (AG50-54)
3' for 1/2 mile intervals and 5' between 1 milers. I'm down in SC...you do the NCTS/IOTS races ?
Mark,
I would agree...its odd though how the low volume/high intensity can drain you if you aren't careful ! I suspect that a better diet plays a more significant role the older we get too, and I'm not the greatest gatekeeper...
Bill
Bill, I am totally with you. I drumbeat a lot about recovery. It's a huge factor that RnP take seriously, but sometimes falls on deaf ears here--no matter what the age. Heck, in years past I've been totally deaf myself. But I've learned that even as a slowish recover-er, if I'm smart about it, even at 52, I can completely keep up. A few things I did wrong last year:
End result was burn out body and mind. For the first time in 17 years, I had NO season. EN's fault because it trained me too hard? No way. All mine for making all the mistakes above.
This year I'm keeping it within my parameters--and I know a lot more about what they are after the flame out last season--so the experience taught be something valuable. As Kris Frazier's MD tells her, "you can do what you did at 20, but you will never recover like you did at 20." That stuck with me.
For this year and IMWI, I am going to be Bill Russell smart and manage my training a lot better--and that might (likely) mean more recovery along the way.
@George--do you take 3' rest or 5' rest between the 1/2 mile and 1 mile sets. Yes, that is exactly right. Most people have to walk a little afterward to reset before easy running begins. For core work I do an abbreviated Pilates routine that I learned a few years ago--2x week. Can't do a pull up for love nor money.
As a 59er (which, since I turn 60 in Sept 2010 puts me in the 60-64 AG) I also follow the workouts precisely. Recently I believe it was Nemo who was referencing something Bill Russell told her a couple of years ago that really stuck in my mind - strive to hit all the target watts/running speeds etc but don't try to be a superhero and bury yourself during each workout. In other words, progression seems to be the key here to success. So I make sure I follow that and while I could, if I wanted to turn myself inside out, go faster or harder, I work to push beyond my comfort zone and to keep progressing.
As an old guy I also worry about bone and muscle loss so I lift twice a week. Additionally, I am really, really, really slow in the water so I also swim three times a week - nothing overwhelming and I usually keep it at 2k yards or so. I took some one-on-one lessons a couple of months ago and am hoping to revise my muscle memory in the water with a new, improved stroke.
I also do a core/lower back routine three times a week and stretch a couple or so times a week as well.
My net at week 10 of the OS is that I feel stronger than when I started, am still hungry for more, and look forward each time to the next session. I have also signed up for the Power Hack, starting next week, so I guess we will see if I still feel the same a month or so from now.
As a 57.5 yr old doing my 3rd EN OS I'm trying to learn how to "Gently" execute the EN workouts to the letter.
1. Switched to minimal footwear (Vibram FSSs) to reduce joint impact with the running which is probably the most traumatic aspect of our sport. Very happy with the results since IMWI09 including 76 miles during the Run Challenge.
2. Stick to the easier end of the power range given- 95% is fine! If I nail it I've met the workout goal.
3. I prefer to take it very easy the first 30 seconds of recovery(below Z1) during intervals- drop watts to 100(35%) and pace to walking and let my HR drop below 120 before finishing the recovery at Z1.
4. On the 30/30s and 2.5/2.5s(PowerHack coming!) I found it really helpful to use Erg+ files on the computrainer to take make sure I hit the intervals accurately.
5. If I don't feel right I'll execute the main set well but cut back the extra minutes.
I wish I did: do a regular core routine(need something REALLY short and simple.) and could drop that last 15#.
Go EN Grey EN Tigers! (and tigresses!)
John
I do core work ( a Pilates mat class) once a week, strength workouts (weights, TRX) 2 times a week and stretch for 20 min 3 - 4 times a week. I do this non-aerobic stuff for injury prevention and to preserve bone and muscle mass. I'm a skinny guy at 135 pounds soaking wet (I'm 5' 10") and if I don't lift weights I will truly waste away, but I really have to be careful about what kind of strength workout I do. They are primarily things that focus on stability, rehab/prehab, opposing muscles from the ones we overuse in triathlon. I will be dropping one of the strength workouts as I start to incorporate the swim due to time constraints.
The good thing about being older, is that I seem to be doing better and better in events. I think it is because many of the really fast people who have been doing tri for 20 years seem to drop out when they hit the 50 AG. Not sure if it is burnout, injury or what, but it makes my times place higher in the AG than when I was in the 40-44 AG.
@ Mark--for those of us sticking around in the sport we seem to be winning the game of attrition, don't you think? My marathoner friend Rich who I workout with on Wednesdays is 59, still super, wicked fast, but has ZERO run buddies left to train with. Rich's plan is to podium at age 60 at Boston, but has no one to push him in training, but me--on the treadmill cuz I sure couldn't run with him on the roads! All his running buddies are done--bad knees, hips, disinterest. You should see the field of women 50-59 in local races--its gets smaller and smaller. Almost no one sometimes. If I hang in there, I might make Kona at 60! (Should the stars align in every way.)
Also, do you guys feel it takes longer to warm-up? I used to be ready to pick up the pace in ~7'. Now it's closer to 12', some days 15'. It's fine wiht me, but it's another way my body is changing that I have learned to respect.
During these OS trainer rides I give myself 15 minutes of warmup every time.
I haven't thought about warm up before, but now that you mention it, I do take longer to warm up. Maybe our bodies are smarter than our brains and force us to "ease into it to prevent damage". I used to NEVER really warm up and now I need to be at least 1 to 1.5 miles into a run before I feel good. On trainer rides I always take 15 min or more to WU if it is a test, but only warm up about 10 min if just doing a workout, as I'm typically pressed for time. This is a very helpful insight Linda and Al.. thanks! I will now watch my WU as closely as I do my other recovery activities.
I take no less than 15, 20 mins to warm up on the trainer. And as wacky as it sounds, I feel my best about and hour and a half into long rides.
Bike racing last summer I learned the hard way that I needed a solid 20 minutes on the trainer before every race. And then some.
Linda,
I've noticed that if I turn on the Garmin, just start slow and easy and gradually pick up the pace (starting about 1min/mi slower than Z1) without looking at the watch at a rate that is comfortable that I'm very ready for intervals at about 10-15 minutes depending on what bike work I did recently.
At that point when I look at my Garmin I'm comfortably going just slightly slower than marathon pace having started at Z1.
If I force the run intervals with less than 10 minutes warmup I have trouble both holding pace and form for the entire set.
John
I'm enjoying this discussion, and finding it extremely helpful/reassuring. Sometimes I feel like such an outlier here. Seemingly EVERYBODY is SO much younger. And, gawd love 'em all, but at mid-30s you can't know how things change until you get to this age--not that it's all bad! I kinda got "in trouble" here talking about how I think a longer IM taper is wise for some people, especially those of us who are older. (Not all, but some of us.) I was told that I was making people question the program. I felt terrible that I contributed to anything that came across that way--to the point where I was called out on it. Oy--not a good feeling. My intention was to be helpful and share my experience and research. Thing is--like having your first child, losing a parent, or dealing with any fundamental life change--getting older has an impact that has to be managed. And you can't know what your reality will be until you experience it for yourself. But there will be a shift--guaranteed.
We're all still doing amazing things, but training plans someone in their 30s can sail through will have to be adapted for many of us in our 50s. Anyway, it's great to know who is in the same age boat around here. And where are the other women???? Hellloooooooo.....am I really the only one?
@Chris--and early bday wish to a great guy! Keep us laughing 'k? 5-oh-oh-oh!!!!
Linda,
Great discussion everyone. I've had to contend with "change in my performance" over nearly three decades of triathlon seasons. In my youth, I was a red-line fool. I used my large muscle mass to power myself through the finish line. Now that I am unable to repeatedly tolerate that type of training effort , I have turned to long distance events. Here, the reward is for patience, and a mature approach to training and racing. I can no longer afford to make mistakes in training. A friend calls it the fourth event: Swim, Bike, Run, manage little injuries. I am grateful for your assurance that if I stick to the OS program exactly, I will be able to recover despite the intensity. I have always had difficulty mixing fast and far, and that is why I am now at EN. The upside to being a veteran is that I've already figured out how to fit training into my life, and I tend to maintain a fairly high level of deep aerobic base. Unfortunately, when I start to see my fitness increase with a regular training regimen, I can get greedy and try to rush my development. Injury then provides an opportunity to rest (even though its more like being in a penalty box). The result is that I get to the start line with less than optimal fitness. Luckily, I have become quite good at Ironman execution and I access all of that fitness on race day. My goal this season is to follow up the OS with a very disciplined and controlled 5 month build to Ironman Florida. Some of my older marathon friends strongly recommend spacing long runs out to every two weeks. That makes sense, however, I will have to plan for a longer build-up. Stay healthy gang.
THIS is why EN rocks! We need a 50+ Sleeper Cell or Forum Tag...you guys are all WSMs -- and are CRUSHING it. I think more folks can learn from this....going to put it in my admin update for the week. Maybe link it up from the wiki too....thanks!
P
@ ;Patrick--that would be great! We talked about that in the forum last year (?), and the haus passed on the idea. But I think this thread shows what a powerful idea it is.
@John--just a word to say that even the EN program requires exactly what you call "a disciplined build." That's perfect. This training is insidious in how it creeps up on you. The volume doesn't kill you, but you get really wiped in other ways that need to be looked at with an eye toward a personalized recovery response.
. But like you say, years of your experience and growth in the sport that provied real learning about your body and how it responds will get you through beautifully. I think someone like you with your experience and maturity in training is going to rock with EN this year. It's perfect for you, IMHO. 
That long run every other week is verrrry interesting...
'Nother almost 50er. I will be 48 come May and find the warm-up and the recovery take significantly longer. I still am not sure if I am recovered from IMAZ!! My legs still feel sluggish, particularly on the run.
At this point, I feel like ALL of my training is to prevent me from getting slower and the days of getting faster are gone. Feels much like an uphill climb.
Linda- can you PM me your core routine, please?
Last year, following the EN plan for IMMOO, I decided to stick to the plan ( except for the longer taper Linda!) which meant missing alot of shorter races I've typically done, not scheduling an HIM as a "prep" race , and the biggest adjustment I made was to do most of my running on a treadmill. I did several 2+ hour runs on the thing, thank goodness the TdF was on TV, and had no injuries, so I missed no workouts, so I was better prepared for the IM than any other I've done.No forced down time.
My point here is the EN solution to coaching, where an intense plan is laid out for us, then we rely on our "wisdom" to adjust along with the great feedback in the posts, works for me.
You're welcome. The 40s is where all this fun begins.
@Nemo, You're a baby. Didn't the doorman check your id?
@ Linda, That's 50th year, not 50. No need to rush into this. KONA 2035!!!!!
This thread keeps triggering additional thoughts..... I have 2 friends in their early 60's. One is a very good runner (doesn't do Tri's) and does a few things: 1) mostly trail running, 2) only runs 3 days a week max and then supplements days 4 and 5 on the elliptical. The other guy has made multiple trips to Kona and has told me that the running is where he is really noticing the impact on his body. If he starts running more than 30 miles a week he starts getting injuries...which is a new experience for him. Clearly us old folks need to really pay attention to the run. I am interested in other's thoughts on elliptical (which I hate doing!) the thought of long run every other week (but I like the long run too much), trying to only run on trails (not that easy living in SF).
I started running almost 33 years ago on June 1, 1977 and went through many phases of running, including a streak of three years without missing a single day. I ran many, many years of 200 - 300 miles per month with no ill effects. I was a running convert as I transformed from a soft, pudgy sofa lover into a skinny superman who believed he could eat anything (my favorite was cold pizza with mayonaisse which I learned about from running legend Boston Bill Rogers who was then in his prime).
After a tough, ugly first marathon in 1979, I trained for my second marathon in 1983 by following a plan that called for two a day runs five days a week in addition to speedwork, hillwork and the long weekend runs and felt no ill effects other than being very tired. While never particularly fast, I did run my quickest marathon ever (3:27) on a hilly course with that schedule (in a cotton Who concert souvenir shirt and cotton shorts).
Now days I find the running laid out in the EN plans to be perfect. Three or four days a week is plenty for me. I can definitely feel the previous day's effort the following day if intervals or long distances were involved.
I originally moved away from pure running a few years back by adding biking as a respite for my body from all the pounding on the roads. However, one step led to another and I soon began swimming and now with a boatload of triathlons and an IM event in my rear view mirror and another IM coming up in June, I suspect I continue to be hooked on intensity, endorphins and profuse sweating.
So I do need a bit less running as I move towards 60 years old, and streaks of even a few days of straight running tend to now leave a mark. I carefully look for aches and pains and try to deal with them via stretching and rolling.
So far, so good.
I agree Al. The EN plans are pretty ideal. With the focus on intensity versus volume I feel that while the intense runs are hard on the body, the return per unit of abuse on the body ratio is better than doing lots of overly long runs. Plus you get the added benefit of actually increasing your pace.
in a cotton Who concert souvenir shirt and cotton shorts: but now this I would like to see a pic of!!
HA! That's OK, you can post here anyway.
Re running alternatives, I'll pass this along should it be helpful. My friend and former running coach Jack Fultz (he won Boston in 1976--the hot "run for the hoses") recommends the ARC trainer rather than the elliptical as a running substitute. I used it for four months a couple of years ago, and I would say some of it actually did translate back to the roads. Certainly not 100%, but it was the best alternative I've tried. Jack's advice is not to worry about resistance. Keep the resistance low, and after you warm up, concentrate on cadence--180/minute. You'll be sweating! If you have one at your gym, give it a try and see what you think.
I'll be 55 in a couple of months so I surely belong here.
Recovery is by far my biggest limiter when it comes to training for IM. I remember my glory days of 20 years ago all too clearly, consistently thinking I can dodge the age bullet just this once: NOT! Coming to accept myself as I am rather than how I think I should/could be has been a key juncture in my maturing as a person as well as an athlete.
My number one tool in my recovery toolbox is my nightly yoga/pilates/prayer/meditation routine. I'm just finishing up my fourth year of daily practice and I'm convinced that it's the primary reason that I haven't been injured, at all, during this time.
The OP stated that keeping to the program and no more is how he manages the EN stressors on an aging body: bingo! It's all too easy to add 10 minutes here, en extra 10 watts there, and before you know it we're ill, injured, burned out, or worse yet, apathetic. Been there, done that, don't want to do it again.
Despite a recent 11:44 IM PR I'm choosing the beginner OS; last year's intermediate program caught up with me after 7 weeks; I was cooked. I find cumulative fatigue to be sneaky and my innate powers of denial to be chronic; I'd much rather be slightly undertrained and fresh and happy than reaching for a mythic brass ring of fitness that is simply out of my reach now.
I'm diggin' the old folks forum!