@Bill R--if it weren't for you--and I really mean this--I'd still be running myself into the ground and remain in that constant state of denial. I really owe you a debt of thanks for being so open and transparent about your experience training for IMFL. I was getting close to where you are, but going kicking and screaming. Instead, I'll follow your lead with confidence and assuredness rather than feeling I had to "drop down" into the Beginner program. I see this as taking one more step to being a grown up!
Nemo's right, that "Beginner" program needs a new name. What a lesson for the power of words, the negative effect of what something is called, and the pull of the ego to resist.
This thread just started and I have already learned a ton!
I have had pretty solid Ironman runs on 20 mile/week of running (average). Of course, I had to do my long runs and big weeks, but always followed them with low volume run weeks (code for Big Swim/Bike weeks). I believe that both Swimming and Biking help build run endurance for Ironman (ie running 26.2 after biking 112 and swimming 2.4) speed efforts. By biking AT THE APPROPRIATE PACE, I have been able to run a few slow miles and then start showing off that "50" on my left calf to all of the kids who pushed too hard too early. Of course, I have to wear a hat so that they can't see my bald spot P.S. Some of the kids are so far ahead of me that I forget that they are even in the same race.
This forum thread is terrific and I have learned a great deal from the many other grizzled ENers.
My problem now seems to be my ever slowing metabolism. When I first started running the pounds just melted away and stayed off. Then as the years went by, normal running was not enough to keep the weight off.
Then with triathlon and the additional hours, I seemed to once more have found a way to keep the pounds off. However, now even during my biggest training weeks, I still must carefully watch what I eat.
Adding more intensity via EN has helped a great deal. It does bring up a concern for me in that I wonder how long it will take before my body adapts to intensity and I am once again worrying about adding pounds.
I suspect that a continuous program of ever greater amounts of intensity is not the answer.
Now I need to get back to loosing the eight pounds I have put on since racing season ended.
I'm definitely in the same place. Up 5# since before Thanksgiving but I'm pretty sure I know why.
For me it's the allure of sugary, fatty and starchy treats that haunt the holiday season. Impulse eating with subsequent regret since I definitely know better. The only way I've been able to consistently drop the weight is to force myself to log all calories before I eat anything. Getting things out of the house certainly helps. Trying to stick to the same boring but healthy, low cal breakfast and snacks also works.
I had no idea there were so many that were 50+. I'll be 60 this year, and I absolutely need to recover. I used to try early season intensity along with quickly ramping volume (in an effort to get ready for Wildflower), and that stopped working at about 52. Between then and starting the EN OS protocol, I was hurt almost every year - not severly, but bad enough so it was a nagging issue all season. Since starting the EN OS with more rest, I've been injury free. I was worried about the race prep for my first IM last year due to lack of recovery days. RnP told me just take a day off when you need it - that did the trick. I now take most Sundays off. That helps with my recovery, and helps with family committments. I fit the Sunday bike in usually on Monday (but it's usually only about 2 hours). Maybe someone else has figured out a better way to work in a day off.
I'm having the same problem and have attributed most of the weight gain (10#) to holiday food and less work out hours. When I first started thriathlon I noticed that when I got hungry I could work out and the hunger would go away. Now, with less work out hours I have used the core work outs to counter the hunger urges. Somewhere along the way I heard an interview with a psychologist that studied weight lose and concluded that "skinny" people think about hunger differently. They presume the hunger sensation will go away and they don't eat until it's time to eat. No junk food snacking. But since I'm not a "skinny" person I have found my response has to be more active.
All,
By the way, I can't agree more that the discussions in the forum rock. It's like a "Golden Thread."
Just found this thread via Patrick's admin email. Haven't digested all the comments yet, but I'll offer a slightly contrary view.
"Age is just a question of mind over matter; if you don't mind, it don't matter." - Leroy "Satchel" Paige
Since I never ran a step, or did a tri until age 50, I have no concept of "slowing down" - I'm already there! Training with others up to 1/3rd my age (birth date 4-9-49), the difference I see a lack of "punch", or high end speed, specifically scrambling up a hill on the bike or a trail run, or sprinting to a city limits sign or end of running race - a sure sign of lowered testosterone? I can still do hard intervals, but just not as fast. Other than that, I don't think there really aren't any concessions in training which I need to be make to aging (at least to this point in my life).
Now, if one has a traumatic injury, or surgery (same thing), then it WILL take twice as long to heal at age 45-60 as at age 20-35. Ditto for nagging aches which can be trained through.
Things which have helped me achieve an IM PR at age 59.5 (and repeat it a year later), as well as tie a 5K PR last week are: life long swimming and weight lifting since age 11; lean size with stable weight (5.10, 148# +/- 5# since age 20); a lot of anaerboic sports - downhill skiing and mountain biking - rather than endurance until age 50.
Gotta go skiing now (on 10 day trip with family in CO). I'll look through the thread this PM and see if I can offer anything else.
Oh, and since starting on EN, I have felt a little jealous there is a separate women's forum, and not one for OFs. Remember, we are everyone's future!
The weight issue is tough. Being a dancer in my younger days, and a serious one, I always had to keep my weight down. Was *this close* to a full-on food problem in my early 20s. One time after the flu, I was depleted at 5' 7", 105 lbs. I spent all of Xmas NOT eating to keep that atrocious weight thinking it was perfect for dance. When we got photos back I almost didn't recognize myself, and it was that very day I started to eat myself back to a healthy weight. But there isn't a day that goes by that food isn't an issue for me--still, after all these years.
I had 4 children and 5 pregnancies. Had to get the baby weight off after each one. I'm now 5 lbs up from my good, healthy, fighting trim weight, and getting it off is really hard. I use to shoot for a reasonable loss of 2 lbs a week, but now it's .5-1 lb/week. It is harder and harder with every passing year. The trick now is to just not let is creep on. I think it's best to weigh myself every morning, and when I see the 1-2 lbs, nip it in the bud right there. Getting the final few off is extremely difficult. And after a lifetime of this battle, I get terribly tired of it. But what's the alternative? To blossom to 200 lbs, as I have seen many women my age do? Not happening here.
The other great thing about this thread is that I have felt alone in the wilderness around here. Wondering am I the only one who needs more rest? Am I the only one who needs to shave down the running volume a bit? Are there others who navigate these issues succussfully and still perform well? Who else understands this stuff around here? Having everyone come out of the woodwork for such a communal sharing has been extremely reassuring.
One concept I've thought about is the artificial constraint of a 7 day training cycle. This limits the number of rest days you can have between hard workouts. If for us older folk, the work cycle was pushed to 10 days, it would be spreading out the hard workouts a bit and allow for additional recovery.
Not sure how this would work in reality - still want to get the longer ride in when safest and most convenient which is a weekend day. Essentially would be 3 cycles a month rather then 4/5.
Great discussion !! I just turned 50 10 days after IMFL - I've been running w/ a great group of guys for the last 10-15 years - one of the mainstays is my friend Bob who is now 75 and routinely leaves us all standing still - and competes well in Duathlons around the world - so anytime I start feeling my knees, back, etc - I look up to see Bob leaving me on the run ........
Linda - you may already have seen this NYTimes summary of a study of weight gain in women, relative to both # children, and presence or absence of a "mate" (their word, not mine; this study was from Australia!)
Last fall, Monday before the Kona IM, I attended the "Iron Gents and Ladies" dinner - one had to be at least 60 y/o to participate. Each of the 70 or so attendees gave a brief self introduction and vignette about themselves. Listening to their stories was no different than listening to other elite IM athletes of any age. Only two people (more on them later) made any reference to the effects of aging; most told stories about motivation, hard work, racing disasters - the usual stuff when IM athletes shoot the breeze. It was clear they all had high expectations of themselves, saw the race as a hard competition, and placed real meaning on the outcome.
The two oldest athletes, Lew Hollander and Madonna Buder, did mention age, but only in the context of LOOKING FORWARD, not back to what they used to be. Lew had made a little chart trying to extrapolate as to what age might be the limit for going under 17 hours - his chart showed a guess of 82 as the upper limit, given current times among 60+ AG winners. And Sister Madonna stated her primary goal in racing right now is to "open up" a new age group for women, 80-84 this year (2010). As long as she keeps qualifying, she will keep racing in Hawaii, just to make the point that women and older persons can. Key point: it's NEVER too late to look forward, make plans and set goals.
Talking with them about training, I did not hear about the need to make any concessions to age. That is, the decisions they made about training were about the same questions any other athlete would ask: how long, how far, how hard, how often? NOT what do I need to do because I am older? They got as far as they did, and were able to come back to Kona year after year, for the same reason as those in their 30s and 40s do: consistency and specificity in training, and paying close attention to internal signals about impending injury and exhaustion (both mental and physcial), and of course, a very high drive to succeed, to do "whatever it takes". For some, that may mean more recovery days, for others, that may mean less intensity on intervals, for still others, they just follow the same training plans as folks half their age.
Now, I'm not advocating that this how we all could or should act. First of all, these are the survivors among those who have been high performers most of their lives. E.g., I didn't hear any stories about how "three years ago I was a 250 pound couch potato who got inspired by the NBC Ironman show". Second, there are real issues to be considered when one is 50+ compared to 30. Chronic illness, medications, joint changes are all much more common the older one gets, and one's athleticism must fit within those constraints. But in the absence of anything like, say, degenerative arthritis of the hip or knee, or hypertension, or heart disease, etc., I don't think there is any reason to use age all by itself as a reason for changing one's approach to training or racing (see comment above about paying close attention to internal signals!)
"The only limits are the limits of our imagination."
Finally, for a "Freakonomics" take on aging and athletic performance, see this 1994 paper by an economist (note PDF file link)
Your following comment struck home: "The only limits are the limits of our imagination." Especially in perspective of your comment: "But in the absence of anything like, say, degenerative arthritis of the hip or knee, or hypertension, or heart disease, etc., I don't think there is any reason to use age all by itself as a reason . . . . "
I came from a running back ground when I was in high school 30 to 35 years ago. I didn't do a lot afterwards due to what I thought were limiters: Diabetes, cancer, and hypertension (with degenerative arthritis kickin in now!) Went into a nice little personal pity party until I had a doctor tell me that if I (underline "I") didn't something about it, I wouldn't be around much longer. Talk about "the only limits are the limits of our imagination".
So at 45, I changed my imagination when I was over 325 lbs! Started walking, then running, followed by cycling, and then ran into someone at a local bike store (Stan's Bicycle) who was starting up a triathlon group in the area. Some bald guy named Rich Strauss! That is when I learned how to swim.
I have some challenges but, it isn't stopping me from moving forward, being active and trying to improve! So you are absolutely right about the limiters being our imagination! Trust me! I know!
Professionally, I'm a geriatrician (MD, Internal Medicine) who specializes in subacute rehabilitation of World War II veterans. These guys haven't done triathlons, but landing at Omaha Beach on D-Day prepared them to get back on their feet after a hip fracture at age 90. Triathlon is simply an opportunity to learn about ourselves. (Hopefully in a little safer environment). I don't know what life has in store for me, but I'm very grateful that I have gotten to experience a number of Ironman events. The silence that falls over the participants as they come face to face with their "one thing" at "the line" is my personal favorite. The sound of footsteps along an isolated stretch of the course. We've all come 134 miles to the same place at the same time. A "band of brothers (and sisters)". George Sheehan, the runner-philospher, described his running life as he battled a fatal illness, "My times may have slowed, but the joys of running are still there... the sound of my breathing as I crest a hill and relax into the downhill. The race still asks of me what it always has...for no more and no less than everything I've got." There are lots of athletes in this forum who have fallen in love with triathlon. Like a successful marriage, that relationship requires respect and attention. The hard sessions that go well are easy... what about the days when you just can't get it going, or even worse, when you are sidelined for several weeks with an injury. My biggest mistakes come from 1. Grasping for more fitness rather than being patient and letting it come to me 2. Letting an obcessive attitude (or time goal) dictate my training rather than staying flexible and listening to my body. All Ironman veterans will tell you that patience and flexibility are both essential skills on race day.
On that note, I will point out that we all have selected Beginner, Intermediate, or Advanced OS Schedules. I did so based on my previous finishing times, however, there is a possibility that my Ego (see #1 above) played a role. Advice on this thread has made me consider the possibility that, based on age (and increased need for recovery), the key may be to complete as much work as I can ABSORB on a weekly and monthly basis. More intervals and higher efforts will not help make me faster if I cross that invisible red line into over-reaching. I am thinking that renaming the OS Programs to Moderate, High, and Very High Intensity focus may help me to reorient my OS schedule to MY PERSONAL NEEDS (ie many years experience, mesomorphic body type, age>50). Its seems like the Advanced schedule adds more time at FTP. I could do the same training stimulus by doing the additional time at a lower intensity (ie 90-95%) or shorter time (Intermediate of Beginner OS Plan) at higher intensity (ie 95-100% FTP). Its actually quite possible that the "Beginner" schedule will yield the best results for an older athlete who really wants to stick with the 95-100% FTP anaerobic threshold work. I'm sure that RnP will concur that one does not have to work at 95-100% to improve FTP. It is the best ROI, but may require me to lower the number of intervals that I can absorb each week . I suspect that I will end-up bouncing back and forth between moderate, high, and very high depending on my response (and probably a little due to my ego, ie #1) If I'm lucky, I'll stay healthy and absorb enough training stimulus to have a great race in November! For those with power, I find that there is a predictable relationship between HR and Power. If that relationship changes across workouts, I may not be absorbing the training load. I can then either 1. take a day off, 2. go easy... or 3. I can adjust my training plan (see #2 above).
I don't think anyone in this thread has proposed using age as a reason to change, but rather have noticed how our bodies have changed over the years and the adaptations we have made because of it. We are older and wiser and more able to listen to our bodies. I don't think anyone is surrendering to age. In fact, I read this as we will not surrender to age and in order to insure that is the case, we have to be smart. We have to know ourselves and honor that knowledge. When I was 25, I ran a half marathon on a stress fracture. Took me 6 months to recover from it. Now, I like to think that I am much smarter than that and will listen to what my body is telling me. I may think that I can do extra work in the OS, but my body says no and I listen. I don't see that as conceding to age.
Mark - I totally agree! The fact that we are here at EN, blasting through OS workouts, pretty much validates that we refuse to go quietly into the night. I may whine and moan but I don't quit, and while the fact is that I am slower than I was 30 years ago does not make me any less of a believer or a competitor. My goal is to make the most of my personal capabilities, be they in life or triathlon, and discussing and commiserating with others only makes me smarter in both regards. And a smarter me begets a faster, stronger and more injury resistant me. And if that means that I may periodically need some additional recovery time to make that happen, then so be it.
We can and will continue to learn and grow and become faster and stronger by listening and discussing our goals and challenges with others. The wisdom of the team and the group is a prime strength of EN and a blessing to each of us.
I am glad to see a forum for as Al T put it; EN OFs, and would suggest that RnP consider creating a separate forum for this group.
Keep rocking old dudes and dudettes - the best is yet to come!
P.S. When the time comes I hope I have a geriatrician as wise as John C.
I just wanted to chime in and thank all the contributers of this thread, I have found it extremely valuable. I am 46, did my first IM this past summer. I am at that stage where my ego, desire/motivation to qualify for Kona has me pushing my body to the limits and toying with overtraining.
I played 4 years of college football, because I was 5'6 150 lbs I had to work 2-3 times harder and longer than my peers to compete. This mindset carried through to triathlons when I started them 4 years ago, my moto was, no one will out train me.
As I age, I am trying to change my moto to no one will train smarter than me. But it is so easy to fall into the old habits of crushing myself and trying to squeeze out a few more watts or a slightly faster pace and the feelings of guilt for taking days off.
The information is this thread and the experience of the OF's is one of the many things that makes EN so great. Knowing and doing are two different things. Sometimes hearing something 5-10 times isn't enough, I think keeping this thread alive is extremely important and should be regular mandatory reading for all of the EN OF's as well as those on the verge of becomeing OF's.
Thanks for your insight, I know it will prolong the triathlon lives of those who heed it.
Super great, jaw-dropping posts. There was something about Al T's post that bothered me, and it was the phrase that the OF's he referred to never talk about "needing to make concessions to age." That's all well and good at an inspirational talk, but dangerous in actuality. Those athletes are making concessions right and left, which is why they're still in the game. Not dong so is why I got myself in huge trouble--to the point of total burnout last year. In my mind, I'm 27. In reality I'm 52. And reality bit.
The energy flowing here is certainly not one that is "giving into" age. Far from it--just look at what we're doing. But it is a place to share an open-mindedness about how to maximize what we can achieve. It's clear there is deep body awareness here forged through crucibles of years ot training and learning. We have learned, and are still learning, to live in the paradox that sometimes "less is more." Not always easy given our natures of high drive.
@John--I ;think renaming the programs with your suggestions is brilliant. I too had more than a little ego in sticking with the Int. Plan in training, and moving up to the Adv level for the long run training. I survived, but I know I can get a lot more out of myself if I moderate a bit more. I am dropping down to the Beg plan, and will spice it up with Int. efforts where I know I can. Then again, I may find I won't need to. I'll be sure to bounce questions here And will you be my doctor too????
Man, this thread just gets better and better! Al, your comment: "the decisions they made about training were about the same questions any other athlete would ask: how long, how far, how hard, how often? NOT what do I need to do because I am older? " is right on target. At every age we must consider how we individually adapt, what our bodies can endure, what our bodies can absorb, etc. It's just that at different stages of our lives, we tend to have different answers to those questions (at 18 my own answers to those questions were very different than they are today) . OTOH, folks within certain age groups are likely to have similar answers to each other.
As an example, Dara Torres (not an OF, but considered old for a swimmer) simply amazes me! She's said before that she needs more recovery than she used to. Is she backing down or making excuses for her age? HELL NO! She just has different answers to those questions now than she used to- and those answers are keeping her competitive. That's the spirit!
I have been following this thread from it's inception. I have found it very helpful and informative.
One of thebest things about EN has been the fact that the COACHES will say "If you need a rest day, take it!" Where else do you get that support? Many of use are/were like Bob Arsenault (sorry Bob)- feeling guilty about a day off. Since joining EN I have loved the built in rest days during OS and during IM training I treat swim days as rest days. I look at ROI. I no longer feel guilty about that day I take to sleep in. Please get out of the "guilt" mind set. Or do some pushups. That pushup challenge makes me feel like I am doing a whole work out and it doesn't take longer than 12 minutes.
As for the plan names. I stuck with "Beginner" plans my first year. Moved up to "Intermediate" for 2009 but did not feel that moving to "Advanced" for 2010 would be smart. I am truly glad that I did not try to kill myself for the ego issue of being in EN this long and still "ONLY" being an "Intermediate". I think those names offered up by John are an excellent idea. It WILL get the ego issue off the table. There is plenty of hard work in every thing we do.
Rest is as important as that FTP interval.
I don't qualify (by your standards) as an OF. I am 41. But I have said it before and will say it again. I thought slowing down was age. It wasn't. It was the LSD training. I am faster now that I was 10 years ago. I know there is a limit for my speed, but it is NOT the 12 min/mile pace I had settled into at age 35 or so. I hope to be smart and maintain. I will get there by resting too.
... the OF's [Al T] referred to never talk about "needing to make concessions to age." That's all well and good at an inspirational talk, but dangerous in actuality. Those athletes are making concessions right and left, which is why they're still in the game.
Linda - just to clarify - yes, those over 60's I talked with last fall do make adjustments (concessions) in their training. But they do not say to others (I of course don't know what they say to themselves!), "I'm doing shorter, or fewer, or less intense workouts because I am now 60 (or 65 ot 70+)" What they say is the same as any other intelligent/experienced IM athlete says, "I took a day off, or shortened the workout because my body told me I needed the rest." Now, one could argue that age is the root cause of having less stamina, or strength, and so needing more rest. And that may well be true. But that is not the language or mindset that they use.
Here's an analogy: age is like the weather; you can't change it, so you should not focus on the weather, or age, per se, rather focus on your response to its effects. Subtle difference, maybe, but an important one I think.
I get the mindset thing. Truly, I do. I'm the person who tries to live every day in every way in what I call my "Ironmind." And I have a series of strategies that I use on a daily basis to rescript negativity, and things disempowering. However, I feel one has to repect the processes different people need to go through to get to the place you describe. One mountain, many paths.
Getting to the point you illustrate is/has been a process for some of many of us who have been at this game many years. As you say, the training questions are the same in our 50s+ as they were in our 30s. But, for some of us, the answers are different than what we were accustomed to in our past. The tapes replay in our heads of how we trained, how we raced, how we felt. It's coming to grips with the changes is why I'm enjoying this discussion. For some of us, the disparity in our bodies over the decades is quite profound. We have decades of races and accomplishments and training to process. We think we're still in one youthful body, but are acutally in a new physical place. It's only by throwing the doors open, asking questions, sharing perspectives, insecurities, and frustrations can we come to the peaceful,empowered place you describe. For me, just listening to someone who has the "right" perspective and feeling I should adopt it--end-of-story--shuts down my self-exploration. I can't do it that way. I have to chafe and ask and opine and experiment. Then I get to the place I need to be. And this group here has already help me get a little farther down the road.
I appreciate Linda’s comments concerning “one mountain, many paths”. Each of us is, as the late Dr. George Sheehan once said, an experiment of one. And while I am not one to look in the rear view mirror and lament over race times long past, I can take that as fact. I ran a sub 40 minute 10k back in 1982 and know that I will never see that again. Does it bother me? – no – not really. I look forward as I train to see what I can accomplish going forward.
Moving into the 60 – 64 age group has been a bit sobering in that when television talking heads comment on stock market performance over the next ten years it does occur to me that in ten years I will be an old guy.
I consider myself an athlete. I measure FTP and vDot numbers right along with everyone else in EN and continue to work to get faster and stronger. I listen to my body and while during the first 10 weeks of the OS I have yet to miss a workout or a prescribed effort, when the time comes to back off a bit, I will do it, and then head forward once again.
I believe that to ignore our changing bodies in our efforts to train and race is a mistake. And to lament over past glories is also a mistake. We make adjustments and continue pushing, albeit perhaps in a bit of a different direction, but we never quit. To quit is to admit defeat and I am not ready to do that just yet.
I lke the idea of self-exploration. In the past, my drive was based on ego and competition. Now it's more about the process and putting myself into a postion to experience things around me and how I respond. My last Ironman was my best... not because my time was a PR, but because I handled training and raceday setbacks with poise and maturity... giving the best possible effort over a season to get to the finish line (as quickly as possible) on race day. Looking back, Ironman race day has always presented itself with some pretty awesome experiences. I still have my eye on the clock, but its no longer what determines whether not I have a great race. The course will sometimes bring heat, wind, and rain. Always an opportunity for self-exploration!
I appreciate Linda’s comments concerning “one mountain, many paths”.
I consider myself an athlete. I measure FTP and vDot numbers right along with everyone else in EN and continue to work to get faster and stronger. I listen to my body and while during the first 10 weeks of the OS I have yet to miss a workout or a prescribed effort, when the time comes to back off a bit, I will do it, and then head forward once again.
I believe that to ignore our changing bodies in our efforts to train and race is a mistake. And to lament over past glories is also a mistake. We make adjustments and continue pushing, albeit perhaps in a bit of a different direction, but we never quit.
Wonderfully put Al and LPatch! This thread has got to keep rolling, I find much comfort and wisdom here.
I will turn 50 in September so this will be my first season in AG50-54 and frankly needed coaching to prevent injury. The shared wisdom and experience of the Haus easily justifying the decision. Am now in week 7 of the Dec OS (intermediate/hi intensity) and I can feel the work outs slowly creeping up on me. Today was my first 2 x 1.5 mile run were I did not have that zip that I had in week 3. But, perhaps some of that feeling was the 30 deg temps with 20 deg wind chill. As far as recovery, I have tried to stick closely to the EN plan to keep a rest day a real rest day. Doing the evening stretching and core workouts have helped redirect the suffering to other areas of my body. But when I have added a swim or extra 10 minutes I have come to regret it - deaf ears and all. Thats when the aches seem to last a little bit longer or appear out of nowhere several hours after the workout. All in all though not too bad for a has been collegiate swimmer from the 70s and 80s when the only training philosphy was to just go faster and rest was for whimps. I have fond memories of HS and college swim meets where surely my ego resides. At this stage in my life I now feel more empowered than in younger years with the ability and desire to go longer distance, in open water, and even in some pretty gross water. So, I cling to the thoughts that yes I was a faster swimmer at 100-400 m then, but now, I can go longer and have more gas in the tank to do a long a$$ bike and a long a$$ run when the swim is over.
On the issue of weight, I told my DW that one reason I do triathlon was that I did not want to be an old fat version of my former self but to be a lean version. She said ok, lets go the France (IMF).
Comments
@Bill R--if it weren't for you--and I really mean this--I'd still be running myself into the ground and remain in that constant state of denial. I really owe you a debt of thanks for being so open and transparent about your experience training for IMFL. I was getting close to where you are, but going kicking and screaming. Instead, I'll follow your lead with confidence and assuredness rather than feeling I had to "drop down" into the Beginner program. I see this as taking one more step to being a grown up!
Nemo's right, that "Beginner" program needs a new name. What a lesson for the power of words, the negative effect of what something is called, and the pull of the ego to resist.
This thread just started and I have already learned a ton!
I have had pretty solid Ironman runs on 20 mile/week of running (average). Of course, I had to do my long runs and big weeks, but always followed them with low volume run weeks (code for Big Swim/Bike weeks). I believe that both Swimming and Biking help build run endurance for Ironman (ie running 26.2 after biking 112 and swimming 2.4) speed efforts. By biking AT THE APPROPRIATE PACE, I have been able to run a few slow miles and then start showing off that "50" on my left calf to all of the kids who pushed too hard too early. Of course, I have to wear a hat so that they can't see my bald spot
P.S. Some of the kids are so far ahead of me that I forget that they are even in the same race.
This forum thread is terrific and I have learned a great deal from the many other grizzled ENers.
My problem now seems to be my ever slowing metabolism. When I first started running the pounds just melted away and stayed off. Then as the years went by, normal running was not enough to keep the weight off.
Al,
I'm definitely in the same place. Up 5# since before Thanksgiving but I'm pretty sure I know why.
For me it's the allure of sugary, fatty and starchy treats that haunt the holiday season. Impulse eating with subsequent regret since I definitely know better. The only way I've been able to consistently drop the weight is to force myself to log all calories before I eat anything. Getting things out of the house certainly helps. Trying to stick to the same boring but healthy, low cal breakfast and snacks also works.
What have you found helpful?
John
I had no idea there were so many that were 50+. I'll be 60 this year, and I absolutely need to recover. I used to try early season intensity along with quickly ramping volume (in an effort to get ready for Wildflower), and that stopped working at about 52. Between then and starting the EN OS protocol, I was hurt almost every year - not severly, but bad enough so it was a nagging issue all season. Since starting the EN OS with more rest, I've been injury free. I was worried about the race prep for my first IM last year due to lack of recovery days. RnP told me just take a day off when you need it - that did the trick. I now take most Sundays off. That helps with my recovery, and helps with family committments. I fit the Sunday bike in usually on Monday (but it's usually only about 2 hours). Maybe someone else has figured out a better way to work in a day off.
Al,
I'm having the same problem and have attributed most of the weight gain (10#) to holiday food and less work out hours. When I first started thriathlon I noticed that when I got hungry I could work out and the hunger would go away. Now, with less work out hours I have used the core work outs to counter the hunger urges. Somewhere along the way I heard an interview with a psychologist that studied weight lose and concluded that "skinny" people think about hunger differently. They presume the hunger sensation will go away and they don't eat until it's time to eat. No junk food snacking. But since I'm not a "skinny" person I have found my response has to be more active.
All,
By the way, I can't agree more that the discussions in the forum rock. It's like a "Golden Thread."
Just found this thread via Patrick's admin email. Haven't digested all the comments yet, but I'll offer a slightly contrary view.
"Age is just a question of mind over matter; if you don't mind, it don't matter." - Leroy "Satchel" Paige
Since I never ran a step, or did a tri until age 50, I have no concept of "slowing down" - I'm already there! Training with others up to 1/3rd my age (birth date 4-9-49), the difference I see a lack of "punch", or high end speed, specifically scrambling up a hill on the bike or a trail run, or sprinting to a city limits sign or end of running race - a sure sign of lowered testosterone? I can still do hard intervals, but just not as fast. Other than that, I don't think there really aren't any concessions in training which I need to be make to aging (at least to this point in my life).
Now, if one has a traumatic injury, or surgery (same thing), then it WILL take twice as long to heal at age 45-60 as at age 20-35. Ditto for nagging aches which can be trained through.
Things which have helped me achieve an IM PR at age 59.5 (and repeat it a year later), as well as tie a 5K PR last week are: life long swimming and weight lifting since age 11; lean size with stable weight (5.10, 148# +/- 5# since age 20); a lot of anaerboic sports - downhill skiing and mountain biking - rather than endurance until age 50.
Gotta go skiing now (on 10 day trip with family in CO). I'll look through the thread this PM and see if I can offer anything else.
Oh, and since starting on EN, I have felt a little jealous there is a separate women's forum, and not one for OFs. Remember, we are everyone's future!
Have a great time on the slopes!
The weight issue is tough. Being a dancer in my younger days, and a serious one, I always had to keep my weight down. Was *this close* to a full-on food problem in my early 20s. One time after the flu, I was depleted at 5' 7", 105 lbs. I spent all of Xmas NOT eating to keep that atrocious weight thinking it was perfect for dance. When we got photos back I almost didn't recognize myself, and it was that very day I started to eat myself back to a healthy weight. But there isn't a day that goes by that food isn't an issue for me--still, after all these years.
I had 4 children and 5 pregnancies. Had to get the baby weight off after each one. I'm now 5 lbs up from my good, healthy, fighting trim weight, and getting it off is really hard. I use to shoot for a reasonable loss of 2 lbs a week, but now it's .5-1 lb/week. It is harder and harder with every passing year. The trick now is to just not let is creep on. I think it's best to weigh myself every morning, and when I see the 1-2 lbs, nip it in the bud right there. Getting the final few off is extremely difficult. And after a lifetime of this battle, I get terribly tired of it. But what's the alternative? To blossom to 200 lbs, as I have seen many women my age do? Not happening here.
The other great thing about this thread is that I have felt alone in the wilderness around here. Wondering am I the only one who needs more rest? Am I the only one who needs to shave down the running volume a bit? Are there others who navigate these issues succussfully and still perform well? Who else understands this stuff around here? Having everyone come out of the woodwork for such a communal sharing has been extremely reassuring.
One concept I've thought about is the artificial constraint of a 7 day training cycle. This limits the number of rest days you can have between hard workouts. If for us older folk, the work cycle was pushed to 10 days, it would be spreading out the hard workouts a bit and allow for additional recovery.
Not sure how this would work in reality - still want to get the longer ride in when safest and most convenient which is a weekend day. Essentially would be 3 cycles a month rather then 4/5.
Linda - you may already have seen this NYTimes summary of a study of weight gain in women, relative to both # children, and presence or absence of a "mate" (their word, not mine; this study was from Australia!)
Last fall, Monday before the Kona IM, I attended the "Iron Gents and Ladies" dinner - one had to be at least 60 y/o to participate. Each of the 70 or so attendees gave a brief self introduction and vignette about themselves. Listening to their stories was no different than listening to other elite IM athletes of any age. Only two people (more on them later) made any reference to the effects of aging; most told stories about motivation, hard work, racing disasters - the usual stuff when IM athletes shoot the breeze. It was clear they all had high expectations of themselves, saw the race as a hard competition, and placed real meaning on the outcome.
The two oldest athletes, Lew Hollander and Madonna Buder, did mention age, but only in the context of LOOKING FORWARD, not back to what they used to be. Lew had made a little chart trying to extrapolate as to what age might be the limit for going under 17 hours - his chart showed a guess of 82 as the upper limit, given current times among 60+ AG winners. And Sister Madonna stated her primary goal in racing right now is to "open up" a new age group for women, 80-84 this year (2010). As long as she keeps qualifying, she will keep racing in Hawaii, just to make the point that women and older persons can. Key point: it's NEVER too late to look forward, make plans and set goals.
Talking with them about training, I did not hear about the need to make any concessions to age. That is, the decisions they made about training were about the same questions any other athlete would ask: how long, how far, how hard, how often? NOT what do I need to do because I am older? They got as far as they did, and were able to come back to Kona year after year, for the same reason as those in their 30s and 40s do: consistency and specificity in training, and paying close attention to internal signals about impending injury and exhaustion (both mental and physcial), and of course, a very high drive to succeed, to do "whatever it takes". For some, that may mean more recovery days, for others, that may mean less intensity on intervals, for still others, they just follow the same training plans as folks half their age.
Now, I'm not advocating that this how we all could or should act. First of all, these are the survivors among those who have been high performers most of their lives. E.g., I didn't hear any stories about how "three years ago I was a 250 pound couch potato who got inspired by the NBC Ironman show". Second, there are real issues to be considered when one is 50+ compared to 30. Chronic illness, medications, joint changes are all much more common the older one gets, and one's athleticism must fit within those constraints. But in the absence of anything like, say, degenerative arthritis of the hip or knee, or hypertension, or heart disease, etc., I don't think there is any reason to use age all by itself as a reason for changing one's approach to training or racing (see comment above about paying close attention to internal signals!)
"The only limits are the limits of our imagination."
Finally, for a "Freakonomics" take on aging and athletic performance, see this 1994 paper by an economist (note PDF file link)
Al,
I always enjoy your posts!
Your following comment struck home: "The only limits are the limits of our imagination." Especially in perspective of your comment: "But in the absence of anything like, say, degenerative arthritis of the hip or knee, or hypertension, or heart disease, etc., I don't think there is any reason to use age all by itself as a reason . . . . "
I came from a running back ground when I was in high school 30 to 35 years ago. I didn't do a lot afterwards due to what I thought were limiters: Diabetes, cancer, and hypertension (with degenerative arthritis kickin in now!) Went into a nice little personal pity party until I had a doctor tell me that if I (underline "I") didn't something about it, I wouldn't be around much longer. Talk about "the only limits are the limits of our imagination".
So at 45, I changed my imagination when I was over 325 lbs! Started walking, then running, followed by cycling, and then ran into someone at a local bike store (Stan's Bicycle) who was starting up a triathlon group in the area. Some bald guy named Rich Strauss! That is when I learned how to swim.
I have some challenges but, it isn't stopping me from moving forward, being active and trying to improve! So you are absolutely right about the limiters being our imagination! Trust me! I know!
Professionally, I'm a geriatrician (MD, Internal Medicine) who specializes in subacute rehabilitation of World War II veterans. These guys haven't done triathlons, but landing at Omaha Beach on D-Day prepared them to get back on their feet after a hip fracture at age 90. Triathlon is simply an opportunity to learn about ourselves. (Hopefully in a little safer environment). I don't know what life has in store for me, but I'm very grateful that I have gotten to experience a number of Ironman events. The silence that falls over the participants as they come face to face with their "one thing" at "the line" is my personal favorite. The sound of footsteps along an isolated stretch of the course. We've all come 134 miles to the same place at the same time. A "band of brothers (and sisters)". George Sheehan, the runner-philospher, described his running life as he battled a fatal illness, "My times may have slowed, but the joys of running are still there... the sound of my breathing as I crest a hill and relax into the downhill. The race still asks of me what it always has...for no more and no less than everything I've got." There are lots of athletes in this forum who have fallen in love with triathlon. Like a successful marriage, that relationship requires respect and attention. The hard sessions that go well are easy... what about the days when you just can't get it going, or even worse, when you are sidelined for several weeks with an injury. My biggest mistakes come from 1. Grasping for more fitness rather than being patient and letting it come to me 2. Letting an obcessive attitude (or time goal) dictate my training rather than staying flexible and listening to my body. All Ironman veterans will tell you that patience and flexibility are both essential skills on race day.
On that note, I will point out that we all have selected Beginner, Intermediate, or Advanced OS Schedules. I did so based on my previous finishing times, however, there is a possibility that my Ego (see #1 above) played a role. Advice on this thread has made me consider the possibility that, based on age (and increased need for recovery), the key may be to complete as much work as I can ABSORB on a weekly and monthly basis. More intervals and higher efforts will not help make me faster if I cross that invisible red line into over-reaching. I am thinking that renaming the OS Programs to Moderate, High, and Very High Intensity focus may help me to reorient my OS schedule to MY PERSONAL NEEDS (ie many years experience, mesomorphic body type, age>50). Its seems like the Advanced schedule adds more time at FTP. I could do the same training stimulus by doing the additional time at a lower intensity (ie 90-95%) or shorter time (Intermediate of Beginner OS Plan) at higher intensity (ie 95-100% FTP). Its actually quite possible that the "Beginner" schedule will yield the best results for an older athlete who really wants to stick with the 95-100% FTP anaerobic threshold work. I'm sure that RnP will concur that one does not have to work at 95-100% to improve FTP. It is the best ROI, but may require me to lower the number of intervals that I can absorb each week . I suspect that I will end-up bouncing back and forth between moderate, high, and very high depending on my response (and probably a little due to my ego, ie #1) If I'm lucky, I'll stay healthy and absorb enough training stimulus to have a great race in November! For those with power, I find that there is a predictable relationship between HR and Power. If that relationship changes across workouts, I may not be absorbing the training load. I can then either 1. take a day off, 2. go easy... or 3. I can adjust my training plan (see #2 above).
I don't think anyone in this thread has proposed using age as a reason to change, but rather have noticed how our bodies have changed over the years and the adaptations we have made because of it. We are older and wiser and more able to listen to our bodies. I don't think anyone is surrendering to age. In fact, I read this as we will not surrender to age and in order to insure that is the case, we have to be smart. We have to know ourselves and honor that knowledge. When I was 25, I ran a half marathon on a stress fracture. Took me 6 months to recover from it. Now, I like to think that I am much smarter than that and will listen to what my body is telling me. I may think that I can do extra work in the OS, but my body says no and I listen. I don't see that as conceding to age.
We can and will continue to learn and grow and become faster and stronger by listening and discussing our goals and challenges with others. The wisdom of the team and the group is a prime strength of EN and a blessing to each of us.
I am glad to see a forum for as Al T put it; EN OFs, and would suggest that RnP consider creating a separate forum for this group.
Keep rocking old dudes and dudettes - the best is yet to come!
P.S. When the time comes I hope I have a geriatrician as wise as John C.
I just wanted to chime in and thank all the contributers of this thread, I have found it extremely valuable. I am 46, did my first IM this past summer. I am at that stage where my ego, desire/motivation to qualify for Kona has me pushing my body to the limits and toying with overtraining.
I played 4 years of college football, because I was 5'6 150 lbs I had to work 2-3 times harder and longer than my peers to compete. This mindset carried through to triathlons when I started them 4 years ago, my moto was, no one will out train me.
As I age, I am trying to change my moto to no one will train smarter than me. But it is so easy to fall into the old habits of crushing myself and trying to squeeze out a few more watts or a slightly faster pace and the feelings of guilt for taking days off.
The information is this thread and the experience of the OF's is one of the many things that makes EN so great. Knowing and doing are two different things. Sometimes hearing something 5-10 times isn't enough, I think keeping this thread alive is extremely important and should be regular mandatory reading for all of the EN OF's as well as those on the verge of becomeing OF's.
Thanks for your insight, I know it will prolong the triathlon lives of those who heed it.
Super great, jaw-dropping posts. There was something about Al T's post that bothered me, and it was the phrase that the OF's he referred to never talk about "needing to make concessions to age." That's all well and good at an inspirational talk, but dangerous in actuality. Those athletes are making concessions right and left, which is why they're still in the game. Not dong so is why I got myself in huge trouble--to the point of total burnout last year. In my mind, I'm 27. In reality I'm 52. And reality bit.
The energy flowing here is certainly not one that is "giving into" age. Far from it--just look at what we're doing. But it is a place to share an open-mindedness about how to maximize what we can achieve. It's clear there is deep body awareness here forged through crucibles of years ot training and learning. We have learned, and are still learning, to live in the paradox that sometimes "less is more." Not always easy given our natures of high drive.
@John--I ;think renaming the programs with your suggestions is brilliant. I too had more than a little ego in sticking with the Int. Plan in training, and moving up to the Adv level for the long run training. I survived, but I know I can get a lot more out of myself if I moderate a bit more. I am dropping down to the Beg plan, and will spice it up with Int. efforts where I know I can. Then again, I may find I won't need to. I'll be sure to bounce questions here
And will you be my doctor too????
As an example, Dara Torres (not an OF, but considered old for a swimmer) simply amazes me! She's said before that she needs more recovery than she used to. Is she backing down or making excuses for her age? HELL NO! She just has different answers to those questions now than she used to- and those answers are keeping her competitive. That's the spirit!
Great stuff here. I think it should be called the advanced experience forum.
Dave
I have been following this thread from it's inception. I have found it very helpful and informative.
One of thebest things about EN has been the fact that the COACHES will say "If you need a rest day, take it!" Where else do you get that support? Many of use are/were like Bob Arsenault (sorry Bob)- feeling guilty about a day off. Since joining EN I have loved the built in rest days during OS and during IM training I treat swim days as rest days. I look at ROI. I no longer feel guilty about that day I take to sleep in. Please get out of the "guilt" mind set. Or do some pushups. That pushup challenge makes me feel like I am doing a whole work out and it doesn't take longer than 12 minutes.
As for the plan names. I stuck with "Beginner" plans my first year. Moved up to "Intermediate" for 2009 but did not feel that moving to "Advanced" for 2010 would be smart. I am truly glad that I did not try to kill myself for the ego issue of being in EN this long and still "ONLY" being an "Intermediate". I think those names offered up by John are an excellent idea. It WILL get the ego issue off the table. There is plenty of hard work in every thing we do.
Rest is as important as that FTP interval.
I don't qualify (by your standards) as an OF. I am 41. But I have said it before and will say it again. I thought slowing down was age. It wasn't. It was the LSD training. I am faster now that I was 10 years ago. I know there is a limit for my speed, but it is NOT the 12 min/mile pace I had settled into at age 35 or so. I hope to be smart and maintain. I will get there by resting too.
Linda - just to clarify - yes, those over 60's I talked with last fall do make adjustments (concessions) in their training. But they do not say to others (I of course don't know what they say to themselves!), "I'm doing shorter, or fewer, or less intense workouts because I am now 60 (or 65 ot 70+)" What they say is the same as any other intelligent/experienced IM athlete says, "I took a day off, or shortened the workout because my body told me I needed the rest." Now, one could argue that age is the root cause of having less stamina, or strength, and so needing more rest. And that may well be true. But that is not the language or mindset that they use.
Here's an analogy: age is like the weather; you can't change it, so you should not focus on the weather, or age, per se, rather focus on your response to its effects. Subtle difference, maybe, but an important one I think.
Hey Al!
I get the mindset thing. Truly, I do. I'm the person who tries to live every day in every way in what I call my "Ironmind." And I have a series of strategies that I use on a daily basis to rescript negativity, and things disempowering. However, I feel one has to repect the processes different people need to go through to get to the place you describe. One mountain, many paths.
Getting to the point you illustrate is/has been a process for some of many of us who have been at this game many years. As you say, the training questions are the same in our 50s+ as they were in our 30s. But, for some of us, the answers are different than what we were accustomed to in our past. The tapes replay in our heads of how we trained, how we raced, how we felt. It's coming to grips with the changes is why I'm enjoying this discussion. For some of us, the disparity in our bodies over the decades is quite profound. We have decades of races and accomplishments and training to process. We think we're still in one youthful body, but are acutally in a new physical place. It's only by throwing the doors open, asking questions, sharing perspectives, insecurities, and frustrations can we come to the peaceful,empowered place you describe. For me, just listening to someone who has the "right" perspective and feeling I should adopt it--end-of-story--shuts down my self-exploration. I can't do it that way. I have to chafe and ask and opine and experiment. Then I get to the place I need to be. And this group here has already help me get a little farther down the road.
NYT--Staying A Step Ahead of Aging
Moving into the 60 – 64 age group has been a bit sobering in that when television talking heads comment on stock market performance over the next ten years it does occur to me that in ten years I will be an old guy.
I consider myself an athlete. I measure FTP and vDot numbers right along with everyone else in EN and continue to work to get faster and stronger. I listen to my body and while during the first 10 weeks of the OS I have yet to miss a workout or a prescribed effort, when the time comes to back off a bit, I will do it, and then head forward once again.
I believe that to ignore our changing bodies in our efforts to train and race is a mistake. And to lament over past glories is also a mistake. We make adjustments and continue pushing, albeit perhaps in a bit of a different direction, but we never quit. To quit is to admit defeat and I am not ready to do that just yet.
I lke the idea of self-exploration. In the past, my drive was based on ego and competition. Now it's more about the process and putting myself into a postion to experience things around me and how I respond. My last Ironman was my best... not because my time was a PR, but because I handled training and raceday setbacks with poise and maturity... giving the best possible effort over a season to get to the finish line (as quickly as possible) on race day. Looking back, Ironman race day has always presented itself with some pretty awesome experiences. I still have my eye on the clock, but its no longer what determines whether not I have a great race. The course will sometimes bring heat, wind, and rain. Always an opportunity for self-exploration!
Just wanted to join the chorus of people enjoying this thread. I find all you people very thought provoking and inspiring, as always. Thanks!!
I will turn 50 in September so this will be my first season in AG50-54 and frankly needed coaching to prevent injury. The shared wisdom and experience of the Haus easily justifying the decision. Am now in week 7 of the Dec OS (intermediate/hi intensity) and I can feel the work outs slowly creeping up on me. Today was my first 2 x 1.5 mile run were I did not have that zip that I had in week 3. But, perhaps some of that feeling was the 30 deg temps with 20 deg wind chill
. As far as recovery, I have tried to stick closely to the EN plan to keep a rest day a real rest day. Doing the evening stretching and core workouts have helped redirect the suffering to other areas of my body. But when I have added a swim or extra 10 minutes I have come to regret it - deaf ears and all. Thats when the aches seem to last a little bit longer or appear out of nowhere several hours after the workout. All in all though not too bad for a has been collegiate swimmer from the 70s and 80s when the only training philosphy was to just go faster and rest was for whimps. I have fond memories of HS and college swim meets where surely my ego resides. At this stage in my life I now feel more empowered than in younger years with the ability and desire to go longer distance, in open water, and even in some pretty gross water
. So, I cling to the thoughts that yes I was a faster swimmer at 100-400 m then, but now, I can go longer and have more gas in the tank to do a long a$$ bike and a long a$$ run when the swim is over.
On the issue of weight, I told my DW that one reason I do triathlon was that I did not want to be an old fat version of my former self but to be a lean version. She said ok, lets go the France (IMF).