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50+ AGers and Recovery

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  • Just checked the site.... soooooooo many to chose from... Any u recommend? thanks
  • Just checked the site.... soooooooo many to chose from... Any u recommend? thanks
  • Posted By George Jordan on 18 Jan 2010 01:02 PM

    Based upon your experience, does anyone have thoughts about when to transition from OS?  Do you think you need more race prep?  If given a choice of 10 - 14 weeks or race prep, which end of the spectrum do you recommend?

    Thanks.

     

     

     

    Hi George!

    I agree that the longer the build the better--speaking for myself at least.  Build the swim slowly, and the ride and run volume. Now that folks have transitioned out of OS to race prep for IMSG, I see that they are going from OS rides (for many they were 90' max on a trainer) to 4+ hours outside in week 1! Maybe 20-something Mancona can do that no sweat, but I would not do well in that scenario. It's this type of thing I have learned through the years here, and "self-coach" myself to a schedule that works for me. Younger folks may need 2-3 weeks to adapt, I would rather build over 4-5 weeks. The longer schedule also gives me a little more wiggle room to take some mini-breathers and still get allthe work done. FWIW, it's the plan I will follow. Keep that in mind re the race prep when you're planning your transition out. I've already moved on from NOS based on the above.

  • Linda H, Myrna - Glad to have you on the team, and more company in the OF category. We're all kind of in uncharted territory, seeing what's possible at this end of the age spectrum, so the more knowledge, the better.

  • Hey Al, Thanks for the welcoming note. It is a wonderful thing to have our own forum and to be able to support and empower each other. My philosophy is that A WHOLE LOT is possible at any age image I often tell my clients “Believe in the power of your mind, know your inner self and discover your physical potential, then … with a little bit of passion and a whole lot of determination everything is within reach.” – Myrna

  • FWIW, I may need some intervention...
    I jumped out of NOS 2 weeks ago, read the Transition recommendations..Lo and behold, I jump from 7 hrs/week to 11+ hrs with very little drop in the intensity work.
    I'm torn between not wanting to give up my OS gains/doing the volume required...Presently I'm doing it but I'm beginning to feel some aches and pains and fatigue that weren't there a couple weeks ago.
    By the way, A race is 8 weeks , the New Orleans HIM.
    Your wisdom is needed and appreciated.
  • William-

    It depnds on your "Race Age." If you have a big aerobic base from years of triathlon training, I would probably trim as much running as you need in order to recover. A run of >90 min every other week will work if you have solid bike endurance.  Running L4-5 is also less ROI than trying to maintain as much biking as possible. Run training (fast and long) always creates the deepest recovery hole for me. If you are relatively new to triathlon and "50ish" I might cut back on the Sunday ABP ride. Three hours on Sat and two on Sunday is a big jump from OS. An hour on Sunday may give you more power on Tuesday.. Undertrained ALWAYS beats fried... especially in the 50+ AG.

    I'm going to Galveston, so I have been hybrid for a few weeks. Swim 3 days, increase from 15 x 100 on 5-7s rest to 5 x 400 (about a half hour) over about 8 weeks.That will get me through the swim and onto the bike with high ROI (about 90 min/wk) I have a swimming background and personally can not go from not swimming to 1 hour swims without feeling like I was run over by a truck.

  • Bill,

    I've been thinking about your post the past few days, and haven't replied because I don't know even know what to say. Is this jump new to EN this year? I don't remember people doing this in years past. I recall a good solid break then a gradual build up from the beginning of a plan for most. I can't imagine that going from 7 to 11 hours is a successful strategy for anyone--don't care what the OS provides. Think I'll stop now before I get into hot water 'round here. I do know it will take you at least 2-3 weeks to adjust to the new rigor, so give yourself that time.

     

  • An unfortunate  truth regarding 50ish athletes is that we will require longer to absorb increased training.   I know from experience that I  can race quite well (read: " not at your full potential, but pretty darn close") at 70.3 without ever even cracking 10 hours/week. No need to get compulsive about volume. Stick with key workouts (particularly a fast bike and a long bike) and take a day off at the first hint of over reaching. Trust the intensity of your OS. It is worth a lot more than volume on race day, as long as you know what pace to ride, (honestly determined in a race simulation and strictly adhered to during the race), you will be surprised at how well you can run 13.1 miles and have a satisfactory finish time. The older AG must learn to listen to their body and be willing to "Just Say No" to a planned workout. 

  • Well said, John. Seems the biggest learning curve and the hardest thing to figure out is when not to train. I had a crappy run today, had absolutely nuthin,' and I'm staring pretty legit intensity in the face this week. Maybe I'll be fine, maybe not. Do I just drill it and me into the ground? I'll show up, but if I can't hold ft, I'm bailing sooner than later to recover and come back stronger. Gotta know who your peer group is. The plans don't specify. image
  • Talk about "Just say no."  My body just rejected this Saturdays bike sufferfest VO2 work-out with a resounding h___ no!  My quads were on fire 15 sec into the first set of 3x4' Z5.  So, I moved on to the 2 x 15' Z3 and finished with feeling drained.  When it came to the 20' run my right hip and ankle determined that it was time to take a long break.  All I could muster was 20' of recovery drills a track coach showed me last year.  By the way, last year I think I had injury issues at the same point in the training year.  Some how I have a tendency to go a little over the edge right before Spring Break.  Hmmm...  Luckily, tomorrow I have a sports massage appointment and hope recovery can be accelarated.  Otherwise, I may be moving my 2 week transition up a week. So, if I don't get the testing in this week it will have to wait until general prep.  Is anybody else having issues with the Saturday VO2 workouts?

  • John/Linda/Chris,
    Thanks for the feedback. Truth is, I've never done a HIM as an A race..they've all been prep for an IM. My tri background is I started swimming/cycling/running in 2003 on a bet, at 43. First Im in 2005, 3 since, lots of other races of all distances.
    The OS has been good to me. Good gains, good recovery, a nice balance for me. The jump in volume ( John, I don't have the luxury of a swimming background. I work my #ss off for all I can get in the water) is clearly working on my legs, and, for whatever reason, swim workouts just make me tired.
    I will refocus on the key workouts and look at evrything else as "stuff".
    Thanks again for the advice.
    B
  • B

    Sorry to imply that swimming didn't require tremendous dedication for most successful triathletes...unfortunately,  I am still told that I "run like a swimmer," often with a limp.

    My experience is that broken long swims (5-7s/100yds of interval) give me the biggest ROI. No LT efforts, just steady consistent swims with short rest covering approximately 2000yds 3 days/wk. This gets me swimming pretty well and doesn/t knock me down too badly when I'm just starting back in the pool. Its important to note that the training effect of this mind-numbing repetitive regimen peaks at about 6 weeks, then I need to change up the pace, interval, etc.

    There will always be bad days in training. But... the sun will always return. Stay on course.

    j

  • Hi, I just found this forum..i have a question about power meters that everyone talks about..I use HR, and at any given time in any workout, I can probably guess my HR within a beat or two without looking at the monitor..I think I am tuned into my body after all these years of training and competing..it seems to me if I have a PM, it will give me info of some sort..but when I train, I know when there is something left in the tank..weather a HR monitor, or a PM may gives me a reading..i know if i have something to give...i understand feedback, but i am not a machine, and i will respond if possible, but just because a measuring device tells me i need to respond, my body, intuition, guides me. So, when i think about PM, i really have a difficult time figuring out how it will help me..plus the part that i find really interesting, ids that some people train with the PM, and then do not race with them..they rely on their mind, preceived exertion, how much of the event is left, etc... for guidance..any thoughts from the 50 plus crowd would be appreciated!
  • Hey Brian, your comments really resonate with me. I have been seriously into triathlon training since 1999, and have been a lifelong athlete. So the idea of knowing my body, what's it is capable of on any given day, and how to use that knowledge to my benefit in both training and racing, has been second nature to me.

    I've gone through learning how to use HR, and more recently, power on the bike and pace for running, to my advantage. I could probably write a long monograph on my thoughts here, but I'll try to be brief, and offer my conclusions, not the journey that got me to them.

    I view the advantage of both power and pace in training as helping me in two ways. First, they help me make my training more efficient and effective. I don't waste time and more important energy in volume anymore - I've learned (see below) that stickig within specific (higher) effort levels for a shorter time will provide the same training effect in two hours (say for my long runs) that 3 hours used to. Since I hate to run, anything that reduces the time I spend doing it, without affecting the outcome, which is race performance, I like. Second, I can keep my workouts at an effort level that will not harm me. I know that, if I stay within the prescribed zones, and don';t exceed the time in those zones, that I'm not going to break down. So: less time, more efficient use of time, and less likelihood of injury.

    As to racing: the cornerstone of EN racing strategy is using power (or HR, but it doesnt work as well) on the bike to minimize the energy drain so the run will actually be a run, and not a shuffle/walk. I won't go into the details of how that works (a key element is maintaining a steady power output over 6 hours, minimal variation) - the wiki and the coaches' writings. podcasts, and videos have more than enough info on how to do that. Then, on the run, sticking within my capacity as defined by pace allows me to get maximum speed out of what little juice I've got left in the last 4 hours of the IM. Now, I could probably do the IM run without pace (I don't use HR during the run, and I only look at my "pace" by seeing each mile split as I go), but I think there are times when I need to make sure I'm going slow enough (at the start) and times when I need to make sure I'm going hard/fast enough (usually somewhere between 11 and 18 miles; for others, its the last 6-8 miles that matter more). I bascially use a combination of willpower, RPE, and mile split pace to accomplish this. E.g., if my RPE is asking me to ease off, I can use the pace as a rein or a whip, and know I won't blow up before the end. Because I KNOW that without a power meter on the bike I would work too hard at the start and uphills, and thus booger my run. It took me 5-6 IMs to learn that. Once I got it, the next 5-6 IMs were easier, and faster. But when I got a power meter, things got even faster and easier still; I could turn the direction of my effort on the bike over to the PM, and use my brain for other, more useful things, like remembering to drink and pee.

    The final brick here is the end result. I've been able to keep improving my time on the same course from one year to the next, and set an IM PR at age 60.

    IM CDA 2009 >> 2010. 09 - Temps high 50s/60s, time 11:42; 2010, temps reaching to 80, time 11:36

    IM AZ 2008 >> 09 Weather the same year to year, time dropped from 10:56 >> 10:52, bike and run times both dropped by 2 minutes each (swim times were the same).

    At my age, just not slowing down is a sign of improvement. With better understanding of how to use power on the bike, and pace on the run, in both training and racing, I've been improving my fitness into my 7th decade. And I was operating at a fairly high level to begin with.

     

  • Brian,

    The pm's greatest benefit in my view, is as a training tool. I always refer to the weightlifting analogy. The pm keeps track of the amount of weight (watts) you're putting on the bar, and the number of reps (endurance, time) you can do at a particular weight. What the pm challenges you to do is to lift more weight and the length of intervals are the repetitions. You can't really do this as accurately or efficiently by simply drilling your heart rate up. And with a pm you continue to strive for adding plates to the bar. So a 20' interval allows you to load up the bar with 250 watts because you have 20' worth of "reps", where a 30" interval allows you to go heavy and put 300 on the bar as you're only doing 3 reps. Ergo, a half IM allows x watts/weight and a full IM allows y watts/weight. For me, it provides a better training target than looking to hold a certain hr zone for a cetain length interval. I can raise my watts per interval target easier than raising my bpm target. Especially at 50+. For me, the pm overrides my innately lazy tendency to settle into a zone, thninking through a combination of rpe and hr that I'm at my limit. I'm usually not. It helps me to not listen to my body, honestly. The numbers challenge me to go for more, for higher ground.

    I always like having the hr info, but I see it more as a symptom of the work rather than a measurement. All of that said you can still get good work done via hr zones as your measurement and you can get good race pacing with a combo of speed and hr pacing gleened from training performance. I can see how people can race effectively without a pm, but if they have one I don't know why they would do that. As Al pointed out, it frees you up to concentrate on other things.
  • You know this is a great forum. I just started reading midway for some words of wisdom and found them. I like some others at 54 don't seem to recover as fast as I used to and frankly it is messing with my head.

    Made most of the workouts during the Oct OS and did fine but the jump in hours this week ( I am in the advanced plan ) has me physically and mentally fatigued after just week 1. I didn't expect to still feel thursdays 1:40 run on saturday, I did't expect to feel like a hippo moving through the water this week and still be sore, and I didn't plan to be mentally whipped getting on the computrainer for a scheduled 4 hour ride. I bagged it this morning after about 20 min., just not mentally there. I find myself feeling guilty for taking today off. Just not used to being unable to bang them out like in the past. 

    Reading the posts has made me feel much better and knowing I am not the only one have some of these issues is reassuring. I think most of us are high achievers or we wouldn't be doing this sort of stuff. Glad to be one of the over 50 crowd and still banging away at it with goals that I may never achieve but willing to keep trying.

  • @ Jeff - I'll be 54 this year and am also on the advanced program; so I know exactly how you feel. You win by being out there. I raced the 1st USAT draft legal age group race following all ITU pro rules. The median age in the men's race was 23 so you can imagine how I felt. But I figure I win by just being on the starting line with the kids.
  • I'm 56 and agree completely with the comments about needing more recovery time.   I can still do the workouts I did 20 years ago but just need much more time to recover -- more time between intervals ( I often walk for 60" then start a Z1 jog), more days after a hard wo.  I do the OS workouts as written, especially the runs even though I've been running for years and have numerous marathons and HMs under my belt. In the past I've pushed too hard, too frequently on run intervals and have gotten injured that way.  So I do a good 15 minute WU, run MS and frequently just stop with that.  The one place I do exceed the time given by RnP is on the bike, since that's my weakness.  I do the MS and then will add on more time @ Z3 pace.  Since Jan 1 I've been swimming 2x per week, maybe 1.5k to 2.0k, focusing on form and not really watching the clock.   I've found swimming to be a nice way to recover, especially from running. 

    I also do weights and core stuff 2x per week and stretch EVERYDAY.  I follow the same stretching routine no matter if it is a run, bike or swim wo. I think the stretching has really helped me recover too.   

    Finally, I feel like (hope) as we age we get wiser about what we can handle, how much rest we need, etc.  Like Linda, I've learned the hard way about trying to ramp up training too soon or racing again after an endurance event. Now I take a whole month off for anything longer than an Oly, no hard wos or other races for 4 weeks.  Just work on my tan if it is summer.

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