Rappstar not showing EN the love...

mgraffeo

 Interesting thread over on ST, talking about the latest article against bricks.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum....ply;so=ASC

I was floored that so many of the old timers basically chimed in in agreement.  Then, along came Jordan, whose opinion I usually respect.  However, I think he went too far here.  What happened, Rich, did you kick him in the nuts once back in the day?

 

Ah, Endurance Nation. Never be afraid to give bad advice based on poor anecdotal evidence. First, they advise no swimming in the offseason. Now, no bricks. 



If you want to read a REALLY interesting article on the PRECISE value of brick workouts - and why they are REALLY important - read the AIS study on lower-leg muscle activation during "normal" running vs. running off the bike. Then read the section of the conclusion where they explicitly state that running off the bike in training reduces the time it takes for your body to start firing your lower leg muscles "as normal" (typically, there is some residual carryover where your body is "confused" and still fires the muscles as if you were cycling). 



But don't let actual, practical evidence get in the way of what a couple of hack "coaches" (using the term loosely) think. 



Of course, rather than reading ANY study at all, you can think about one simple concept - specificity. Running off the bike is specific training for triathlon. Therefore, it is going to make you a better triathlete. But of course, that doesn't get anyone talking about your "articles." 

 

 

tuckerm

@Mike, I usually like Rapp as well. Very knowledgeable, Rapp doesn't like the "no swimming on the OS" meme. He doesn't get the whole ROI swim thing. Maybe he can't understand why us non-pros don't have 20+ hours a week to train all 3 disciplines in the winter?

@Rich, I thought you had asked for data from people last year about their 1000m TT pre and post-OS. Would love it if you had that data and could wipe it in Rapp's nose since it wouldn't be anecdotal. Actually data driven.

Coach Rich

If someone can find the study for me I'd be happy to read it and comment on it, over here, not on Slowtwitch. Or maybe, dunno, too busy doing other stuff for you folks like writing, creating season plans, moving the new OS plans into the site here, etc.

But my primary contention is this: the reason why many people underperform on the run is NOT because they haven't done a lot of bricks. Clearly, they have been doing a lot bricks and are still not running well off the bike. The reason is because they are riding too hard or running too fast in the first 6-8 miles of the run.

You only need to stand at mile 1 of any Ironman run course to see this, expecially on a two lap run course. Just stand at mile 1, all day.

• If you didn't know any better you'd think that 2/3rds of the field was going to run a sub 3:30 marathon...cuz there sure are a lot people running sub 8's in the first 1 mile.
• Then watch these same people at mile 14. VERY few, if any of them are running in the same zip code as their 1 mile split.
• Then teleport yourself out to mile 18-20....it's far worse out there.

You may call it anecdotal...and it is. I call it observation and thinking critically about what the sport says you should do vs how it all actually plays out on race day.

Our method then, of making you faster, is:

• Create more opportunity, through effective, intelligent scheduling, to have you running faster, more often. This has been proven to make you a faster runner.
• _That_ applied over weeks and months creates durability and endurance.
• Put you out on the course with the race execution tools that keep you from doing what everyone else does...pacing poorly. Instead, you race according to a system that has been vetted across over 1000 full and half IM finishes in 2011 alone.

Maybe I'll just cut and paste this over to ST and be done with it

mgraffeo

Totally agreed. I think that the other big disconnect between Jordan's reply (and another dude over there with too much angst) is that most AG'ers are nowhere near their potential in terms of Vdot. If that's true, most AG'ers would be MUCH better off spending their limited time running training to raise their Vdot, rather than training to increase the durability of their current Vdot.

It's possible that folks who are at a point where Vdot improvements are very hard to come by might gain some incremental specific benefits from those types of runs, but I just don't think that describes the vast majority of us out here.

Still think you must have knocked his goggles off back at Wildflower or something, Rich!

chris malone

Good advertising.

The "Hacks" must be doing something right to get attacked by such "experts". What exactly is their beef with EN's success?
Why so threatened?

tuckerm

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14658244

 

I can't figure out how to see the whole study though.  Abstract:

The aim of this study was to determine the effect of prior cycling on EMG activity of selected lower leg muscles during running. Ten elite level triathletes underwent two testing sessions at race pace: a 40 km cycle followed by a 2 km run (CR) and a 10 km run followed by a 2 km run (RR). EMG data from selected lower limb muscles were collected at three sections of each run (0 km, 1 km and 2 km) for six strides using a portable data logger. Significant differences (p < 0.05) between condition were found for the level of activation (Lact) for biceps femoris (BF) during stance and vastus lateralis (VL) during flight and stance. Vastus medialis (VM) changed in Lact, during flight, between sections in the 2 km run. Furthermore, significant differences (p < 0.05) between condition were found for BF during stance and for rectus femoris (RF) and VM during flight. There was a significant difference (p < 0.05) in the duration of VL activation (Dact) across sections of the 2 km run. Findings from this investigation highlight changes in muscle function when changing from cycling to running and indicate a need to train specifically for the cycle to run transition. Such training may improve performance and reduce the risk of injury.

Jeff Unruh

Kinda bummed to see that from Jordan -- the personal attack crap. He is certainly entitled to his opinion and I will try to read the study in that thread...

delesh

You forget that everyone on Slowtwitch is a pro triathlete and has unlimited hours to train/recover. They don't seem to understand that the low hanging fruit for most of us is to actually build up our run fitness instead of waste valuable training time running slow off the bike. If Slowtwitch.com was my only window into the triathlon community I would hate being a triathlete.

tuckerm

Ok so not having read this whole article, I don't know how long they suggest you run off the bike to "train" your body, if they do at all. I am not really sure where I come down on this brick/no-brick topic. I think you need to do some, I'm assuming the only assigned bricks will be the big day and RR workouts in the new plans. I will most likely continue to do them from a time management standpoint. I can't do pre and post work workouts like many here can do to my work schedule.

Coach Rich

Posted By Tucker McKeever on 27 Oct 2011 04:36 PM

Ok so not having read this whole article, I don't know how long they suggest you run off the bike to "train" your body, if they do at all. I am not really sure where I come down on this brick/no-brick topic. I think you need to do some, I'm assuming the only assigned bricks will be the big day and RR workouts in the new plans. I will most likely continue to do them from a time management standpoint. I can't do pre and post work workouts like many here can do to my work schedule.

And that's how we are/will lay it out on our plans and for you here:

• Here is the bike/run workout (I guess we can no longer call it a brick? ) with the run schedule separate from the bike
• But we include a note that says "but if you need/want to do the run as brick, then change this, this, and this on the schedule run."
• Want to learn more about this crazy no-brick jazz? Read this, listen to that, watch this video over here.
• Have questions about what this all means, how to apply it to your situation? Just ask us and the team in the forum.

You then, with our help, do the smart guy/gal thing to make our training plan YOUR training plan. And this highlights the potential value of being a member vs a training plan customer.

mgraffeo

Tucker, the article can be purchased here

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14763140308522806

I'm just not that interested, since I can predict that they conclude that muscle activation patterns are different (no $h!t) and therefore different training is necessary. Unfortunately, there's no way that they will offer recommendations on what to do (since that wasn't part of the study), and I'm sure that they didn't conduct a follow-up study with two groups to investigate different training methodologies.

The problem with the author's (presumed) conclusion, and that of Jordan, is that the underlying assumption is that just because the activation is different, that it is something that requires training. Put another way, there's an assumption that, if you do brick training, you can get better at it. I'm just not convinced that's true. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's trainable, or that we know the right way to train it.

Therefore, given the time constraints in my life, I'll continue to brick in the OS for time efficiency and change of clothing, but not because I believe that there is some special brick adaptation that triathletes need. Otherwise, I wouldn't have enough time in my life to comment in the forums!

mgraffeo

Oh, and for every study like that that Jordan can toss out, I can toss out one like this

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17549464

that suggests that training multiple sports sequentially actually diminishes the training effect, leading to lower muscle recruitment potential. Just in case somebody wants to go pick a fight over on ST. I'm not in the mood.

tuckerm

I saw that article as well Michael. Maybe I will get feisty at work later.

steveperx

I was a little surprised to see Rapp come out swinging like that. He always seemed to have more tact than others (like Paulo) who seem to thrive on their assholishness. After reading the thread I was wondering if anyone commenting had actually read the blog piece. I tend to agree that doing a brick run for fitness purposes makes little sense if you can restructure the workout to run on fresher legs. That said, I do see the benefit of incorporating at least some longish bricks (more than one) for the specificity of training and to work on nutrition.

Coach Rich

Fine to represent...but please be polite and respectful.

I will likely cut and paste my stuff above and these abstracts into a post over there tomorrow and be done with it.

Also...I just want to thanks to everyone for helping us create a space where we can all have polite, respectful, valuable conversations about so many topics that we're all interested!

I don't know if the triathlon forum ---> coach relationship has an analog in the real world, with your real jobs, but you probably have an idea of what this stuff can be like for guys like PnI. It's so, so nice and refreshing to have a forum that I actually enjoy coming to and interacting with our athletes and fellow triathletes! If I were a coach without a community and my only resources for talking to other people about the sport were forums owned and managed by other people...I think I would have shot myself years ago. Between CF and EN I've always had my own space where I didn't have to drop my pants and bust out the ruler every day, didn't have to pretend I know everything, encourage people to challenge me, and more importantly relate like an adult with other adults.

tuckerm

@Rich, we all thank you, for not whipping it out and measuring it.

ezellrh

-Newbie to the Haus, but in cases like this, sometimes I just think its best to remember

Michael Johnson

OK, I posted a polite reply, (jayhawk) but had to address Jordan and Paulo......Personally Im glad not everyone loves EN.I don't want all my competition to know what we know.  Im all for kicking their ass on raceday!

AMA168

Well said Michael in the ST forum....I was also surprised to see Jordan's response. I wonder if Jordan will hit me in the head when he runs by me on the run at IMAZ wearing my red EN gear!!!!

Michael Johnson

Maybe RnP should invite Mr Rapp to the IMAZ Four Keys Talk?

jburbatt

Meh, I'm with Roy. I mean if you want to blindly follow what others are doing or just have a coach slap something in front of you that's cool. If you want to put a lot of effort into finding what works for you and the "mainstream" ideas work for you then that's great. For the most part the EN plans track with how I have learned I improve best with great ROI. I don't always find everything the EN plan calls for works for me, but I can adjust. When you're self-coached you got no one to blame but yourself (which I think makes you a better athlete). When you blindly follow, well, at least you can bitch and convince yourself that it's not your fault...

 

EDIT: And I need to remind myself not to look at these ST posts that you guys put up...they are such a downer with all the negativity.

TerryO

It's so funny to read that thread. There's a reason I never go there unless someone posts a link here. So many d-bags.

I have little experience reading threads there, but I can say I've read many anti-EN posts, but have never seen anyone say that D3 sucks, or CTS has no idea what they are talking about, or MAO is a sham. Could it be because they are scared?

I especially love the swimming criticisms. I would love to hear any one of those guys give a personal testimonial about how they swam 5 days a week for 5 months last winter and took their IM swim time from 1:07 to 1:02, just to see how many people would think he/she was an idiot when they actually see it in print. Even me putting it in print makes it look idiotic.

Scott Alexander

And their love of trashing "coaches", WTH is up with that??? As someone who is USAT-certified, I can tell you that RnP know gobs more than 99.9% of all the other USAT coaches I've ever met. Just because one might or might not have a shingle on their wall, doesn't make you more or less of a coach than someone that has tons more experience than them. Again, just a respect (or lack thereof) thing.

Jeff Unruh

My corollary, as I was driving home was something like...

So RnP aren't real coaches because they use a "cookie cutter" plan and don't tailor everything and do one-on-one is about as stupid as saying Rappstar isn't a Real Pro because he didn't race Kona.

mgraffeo

I dunno, seems to me to show a tremendous amount of insecurity to attack someone just because they have a viewpoint that differs from your own. Writing an article on not doing brick training hardly seems to warrant being called a 'hack' and stating that you are using the term coach loosely.

I expected more from him. Feeling better about yourself by ridiculing others isn't exactly a redeeming character trait, IMHO.

Jeff Unruh

I was hoping it would settle down - it hasn't...

mgraffeo

dammit, couldn't stop myself after his second rant. Sometimes I hate my compulsive need to participate in arguments!

Username in ST-land is phabio...

Jeff Unruh

I figured as much signed with the M

Oh well - that was fun...

Paul Hough

Wow...I read Jordan's comments and he seems carrying a GIANT chip on his shoulder for some reason. It's so disappointing to hear a pro you thought was nice go off on a rant for no reason. There will never be universal agreement on training methods and theories...heck, I haven't even fully absorbed all the EN koolaid yet. And while different methods work better for different people, wasn't it amazing the number of longtime triathletes who had already come to the same conclusion that Rich was right? Jordan may be a great triathlete, but when it comes to interacting with age groupers he has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is a total hack.

tuckerm

Damn Mike, you gonna take it like that?

mgraffeo

Tucker, just wait. Gotta set him up and let him punch himself out. Like Ali said, you gotta rope-a-dope!