I think I figured out why someone like Jordan Rapp would even post in the 2nd forum and keep himself associated with the muck... This is from HIS training website...it does not say he has any ownership of said company, but he still makes part of his living there...
"The guidance of someone who's already done what you want to do paves the way for achieving your goals. Relationships built around knowledge and service - knowledge about you, your sport, achievement, and service to help you overcome obstacles and deal with real world constraints.
That's what TARGETRAINING coaching and instruction is all about"
I hope we get some quality members from this thread, that would be the icing on the cake
Al: should have followed your initial instincts had continued to shun ST. I didn't get a lot of help there when I used it in the past...especially not in comparison to this site.
I'm all for defending our coaches, but the high road is to ignore them.
I wouldn't consider the every once in awhile EN bashing to be an indictment of ST as a whole. For the most part, EN gets a fair amount of love and praise at ST. It's the same vocal few that get spun up on occasion. Personally, I love the piss and vinegar of the place.
Scott and all people racing IMAZ: please represent yourself and EN well at IMAZ. I know I probably didn't have to say...but I'm saying it anyway :-) Thanks!
@nate & others. when talking about the ROI that EN offers, look at the athlete book they print out every ironman. in it they have the average hours trained, i think broken down for SBR by the participants, i am blown away by how much time is put in and how below average our hours are. more testimony that Work does in deed works
@Ebe fyi not sure what the TargetTraining association is alll about, but I do know that they're based in Westport CT and are an elite team who dominate the races in my area. AND ROI is soooo not part of their MO, more like tons of time and even more money.
What I can't understand is why everyone thinks these are cookie cutter plans. Believe me. I started at BT. I know cookie cutter plans. But even though all Intermediate HIM plans, Advanced IM plans, etc. look the same on paper, because the workouts are based on tested fitness levels (pace, FTP, T-pace), everyone's workouts are different. They are also written for their target audience - real world AG'ers who want to be better/faster triathletes given the constraints of their lives.
The beauty of this place is that no one here has said to me, "25 hours is what it takes. Unless you never want to get faster, this is what you have to do. Family? Not my problem. You're not paying me to keep your family together."
I came to EN because I read an article by Rich on Active and it made sense to me. I wanted maximum returns on minimum investment (both time and money), but I don't do anything that doesn't make sense to me (unless my wife tells me to). Bottom line is that I've been in triathlon for 3 years and with EN for 2. I've raced 6 times since EN and PR'd 5 of those. I've also moved up from top half in my age group before EN to top 3rd (every EN race) and up to top 15% (last race). And I've done this on an average of about 8 hours per week in HIM training and 12 hours a week during IM training. Don't tell me this $hit don't work.
I don't have an issue with the term cookie cutter all that much. The plans aren't individual in the sense that Rich and Patrick spent a week testing, watching and monitoring workouts and individually customizing a plan based on what they observed and analyzed. At the end of the day, there are four stock plans (IM, HIM, Short Course, and OS) with three ability levels (Beg, Int, and Adv).
That stated, the plans (while stock) offer a bunch of individualization based on FTP and Vdot. A complete cookie cutter plan is one that says Bike for two hours but offers no guidance how to bike for two hours. We've all seen those kind of plans.
The other issue I have with coaches claiming to offer individualized plans is there's nothing individualized about it. Most just use a stock plan as a base and put in some numbers to make it seem individualized and personal. Which is different from EN how??? Like I said over on ST... most triathlon coaches are normal people with a newly minted USAT Level 1 Certification and moonlighting as a personal coach to make a little extra money - and they don't know jack shit.
My theory (again) is that Jordan et al do feel somewhat threatened (on some level, not losing sleep over it) by EN in that its an online training business but offers a thougtful approach via power and pace. Further, it's not simply online, as our "cult" gathers and meets. Seeing more and more EN kits out there doing it right leads to those not in the cult feeling a little envious. When you succeed you get a target on your back.
I would like the EN gear guy to make a set of cookie cutters for me to buy. Something in the EN logo, or maybe the cover of a training plan. Then I will post them on JR's facebook page with delight saying..."hey look what just arived in the mail, my EN cookie cutters, inspired by you. Merry Christmas". To keep with my holiday theme, we could dress R&P up in DR coats, fake blood and knives. Take a picture and make a halloween shirt proclaiming our "hacks"...maybe even put a bloodied specialized helmet on the floor...Or a Harley style shirt with R&P on a road king with a sidecar (hack) and maybe the "We like long slow rides too" slogan on it. But the idea of the day comes from Chris Malones statement of "coaching envy"....a picture of 2 guys lined up at the start of a swim, from the back it looks like they are taking a piss with the quote "I thought Jordan was coming to this???" Guys, its halloween, please have some fun with this, it could make for some great fun within the house
Jan paid an online running coach/guru like $1200 for coaching to BQ. SHE GOT A TOTALLY canned plan and no feedback. It was a total waste. EN has great value and is hardly cookie cutter.
I think there is a bit of jealousy from some coaches out there towards RnP. They clearly have developed a format that works and speaks to some AGers. Your 20-25 hrs per week, ST, Kona Qualifiers will probably always scoff at it. They have to thikn it is crap because it makes them look somewhat silly paying their $200-300 per and they need to justify it.
I think the haters will never quite grasp the power of the EN community. And let us be honest here, RnP are great, but it is the community here that makes EN what it is. And I think they would agree to that. Having said that, I think RnP should officially invite Jordan Rapp to check out EN. Love to see his comments after actually experiencing the EN Forums.
I'm not the least bit surprised to hear him say something like this, but when you've stooped to the level of saying something on a forum that you would never say to someone's face, you've crossed the line and I've lost all respect for you.
@ Chris - I followed the guy on Twitter for about 5 minutes. The guy's a freak. And I don't give a shit what degree he has, or from what school. He could have gotten straight C's sealing his decision to become a professional triathlete. Regardless, it doesn't make him a smarter triathlete that anyone here with higher degrees (many of us with much higher degrees than him) that are serious students of the game. And forget about the fact that he is truly an N=1 experience (which he never admits), not a triathlon coach, hasn't analzyed the results of thousands of ironman finishes, and isn't watching the plights of several thousand AG athletes at 10+ ironmans a year.
Follow the likes of Crowie, Chrissie, Rinny, TO, Grainger, Reed, even Macca, and you will see real, humble (Macca not so much), class act athletes. You never hear them bag on anyone else. Not like this d-bag.
@ Chris - I followed the guy on Twitter for about 5 minutes. The guy's a freak. And I don't give a shit what degree he has, or from what school. He could have gotten straight C's sealing his decision to become a professional triathlete. Regardless, it doesn't make him a smarter triathlete that anyone here with higher degrees (many of us with much higher degrees than him) that are serious students of the game. And forget about the fact that he is truly an N=1 experience (which he never admits), not a triathlon coach, hasn't analzyed the results of thousands of ironman finishes, and isn't watching the plights of several thousand AG athletes at 10+ ironmans a year.
Follow the likes of Crowie, Chrissie, Rinny, TO, Grainger, Reed, even Macca, and you will see real, humble (Macca not so much), class act athletes. You never hear them bag on anyone else. Not like this d-bag.
I couldn't agree more. I don't know what his credentials are and whether or not he's an actual certified triathlon coach, but he does coach people, one of whom lives here in Lexington, and I know that he has a waiting list. The piece of the puzzle he's missing is that part of being coached is having a good rapport with your coach and having he/she be a person you can talk and relate to.
If it was Jordan that smashed your pumpkin, I think we can be confident that he had an individualized run plan developed for leaving your porch, reviewed by his elite coach.
I have been pretty disconnected due to some major life/work stuff that has kept me away from leisure of any sort, so I'm late to the table. And I confess I have read none of these ST threads nor the research papers.
However, Rapp is a pretty thoughtful guy even if he has gotten to a point where he doesn't suffer fools gladly and can get a bit huffy about it.
Before all that took off, it seems to me pretty easy to believe that both camps have a legit point...if you make the assumption that Rapp is speaking about the world in which he lives, i.e., the one in which people execute their races more or less correctly more or less all the time and in which they have more or less unlimited time to train/rest and are pretty elite athletes.... then what he says may be 100% right (both on swimming and the value of bricks, and who knows what else)
But in the world that EN at least mostly lives.... average to the occasional amateur KQ folk - mostly with real lives besides, the ROI of the EN approach probably outweighs the hypothetical best case scenario.
RnP have made the point this past season... There's how good you can be if you train up to 15-20 hours a week vs. how good you can be if you train 30+ hours a week and do nothing else. You don't do the same thing if you're taking the former approach and the latter.
Oh, and Paolo has a habit of calling EN a cult. If you don't see that when the topic comes up, you should be disappointed. It's a bit like the swallows and Capistrano...
Oh, and Paolo has a habit of calling EN a cult. If you don't see that when the topic comes up, you should be disappointed. It's a bit like the swallows and Capistrano...
I can't help but to always think of this whenever I hear swallows and Capistrano:
Comments
This is from HIS training website...it does not say he has any ownership of said company, but he still makes part of his living there...
"The guidance of someone who's already done what you want to do paves the way for achieving your goals.
Relationships built around knowledge and service - knowledge about you, your sport, achievement, and service to help you overcome obstacles and deal with real world constraints.
That's what TARGETRAINING coaching and instruction is all about"
I hope we get some quality members from this thread, that would be the icing on the cake
Al: should have followed your initial instincts had continued to shun ST. I didn't get a lot of help there when I used it in the past...especially not in comparison to this site.
I'm all for defending our coaches, but the high road is to ignore them.
when talking about the ROI that EN offers, look at the athlete book they print out every ironman. in it they have the average hours trained, i think broken down for SBR by the participants, i am blown away by how much time is put in and how below average our hours are. more testimony that Work does in deed works
The beauty of this place is that no one here has said to me, "25 hours is what it takes. Unless you never want to get faster, this is what you have to do. Family? Not my problem. You're not paying me to keep your family together."
I came to EN because I read an article by Rich on Active and it made sense to me. I wanted maximum returns on minimum investment (both time and money), but I don't do anything that doesn't make sense to me (unless my wife tells me to). Bottom line is that I've been in triathlon for 3 years and with EN for 2. I've raced 6 times since EN and PR'd 5 of those. I've also moved up from top half in my age group before EN to top 3rd (every EN race) and up to top 15% (last race). And I've done this on an average of about 8 hours per week in HIM training and 12 hours a week during IM training. Don't tell me this $hit don't work.
That stated, the plans (while stock) offer a bunch of individualization based on FTP and Vdot. A complete cookie cutter plan is one that says Bike for two hours but offers no guidance how to bike for two hours. We've all seen those kind of plans.
The other issue I have with coaches claiming to offer individualized plans is there's nothing individualized about it. Most just use a stock plan as a base and put in some numbers to make it seem individualized and personal. Which is different from EN how??? Like I said over on ST... most triathlon coaches are normal people with a newly minted USAT Level 1 Certification and moonlighting as a personal coach to make a little extra money - and they don't know jack shit.
My theory (again) is that Jordan et al do feel somewhat threatened (on some level, not losing sleep over it) by EN in that its an online training business but offers a thougtful approach via power and pace. Further, it's not simply online, as our "cult" gathers and meets. Seeing more and more EN kits out there doing it right leads to those not in the cult feeling a little envious. When you succeed you get a target on your back.
Guys, its halloween, please have some fun with this, it could make for some great fun within the house
plan and no feedback. It was a total waste. EN has great value and is hardly cookie cutter.
I think the haters will never quite grasp the power of the EN community. And let us be honest here, RnP are great, but it is the community here that makes EN what it is. And I think they would agree to that. Having said that, I think RnP should officially invite Jordan Rapp to check out EN. Love to see his comments after actually experiencing the EN Forums.
I'm not the least bit surprised to hear him say something like this, but when you've stooped to the level of saying something on a forum that you would never say to someone's face, you've crossed the line and I've lost all respect for you.
Follow the likes of Crowie, Chrissie, Rinny, TO, Grainger, Reed, even Macca, and you will see real, humble (Macca not so much), class act athletes. You never hear them bag on anyone else. Not like this d-bag.
I couldn't agree more. I don't know what his credentials are and whether or not he's an actual certified triathlon coach, but he does coach people, one of whom lives here in Lexington, and I know that he has a waiting list. The piece of the puzzle he's missing is that part of being coached is having a good rapport with your coach and having he/she be a person you can talk and relate to.
I was referring to Rapp.
If it was Jordan that smashed your pumpkin, I think we can be confident that he had an individualized run plan developed for leaving your porch, reviewed by his elite coach.
http://triathlon.competitor.com/2011/10/training/running-vs-triathlon-running_42523
However, Rapp is a pretty thoughtful guy even if he has gotten to a point where he doesn't suffer fools gladly and can get a bit huffy about it.
Before all that took off, it seems to me pretty easy to believe that both camps have a legit point...if you make the assumption that Rapp is speaking about the world in which he lives, i.e., the one in which people execute their races more or less correctly more or less all the time and in which they have more or less unlimited time to train/rest and are pretty elite athletes.... then what he says may be 100% right (both on swimming and the value of bricks, and who knows what else)
But in the world that EN at least mostly lives.... average to the occasional amateur KQ folk - mostly with real lives besides, the ROI of the EN approach probably outweighs the hypothetical best case scenario.
RnP have made the point this past season... There's how good you can be if you train up to 15-20 hours a week vs. how good you can be if you train 30+ hours a week and do nothing else. You don't do the same thing if you're taking the former approach and the latter.
Just my off the cuff two cents.
Back to the ugly grindstone for quite a while....
Awesome, William. Awesome.
I can't help but to always think of this whenever I hear swallows and Capistrano:
http://www.reelwavs.com/movies/dumb_and_dumber/dumb13.wav
Me too! What does that say about us?