Jordan may be a great triathlete, but when it comes to interacting with age groupers he has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is a total hack. I really do like most of what Jordan offers to the tri world. IMO, he'd be the best ambassador the pros could have to represent them within the tri world. He really understands the pros role and importance (or lack thereof) within the world of triathlon. He's a very, very bright guy (he pretty much has a rocket science degree from Princeton) and his comeback from a near fatal accident to win IM races again is the absolute stuff of legend. Where Jordan goes askew is with his lack of understanding when it comes to everyday AG training. I can understand that a genetic freak like him has some troubles relating to us mere mortals but he really doesn't understand what makes us tick and consistently makes dopey comments in that regard.
@ Terry, let's get rear view mirrors and block him on the bike. 3 lap bike course means lots of AG lapping for him.
@ all, should we invite him to the 4 keys talk?
In the reality section of this post. I actually almost never read ST or even training articles in magazines. I feel that i have subscribed to the EN way and it is going to work for me, or it isnt. I am willing to bet that most any training plan will make me stronger and faster (by running more and biking more). if anything, the other plans will have me doing everything more.
I subscribe to the EN way because it is based on the premise of high ROI for the AGer. I have a few friends/acquaintences who ask about EN and i am trying to get them into the haus. when they ask me what i like about it, #1 on the list is the fact above. High ROI, reach your potential in the least amount of time possible.
I tell them I went from OS workouts of 60-90 minutes, did a 2 week transition and then a plan building mileage for 12 weeks and did IMKY in the 50th percentile compared to my pre OS finish of IMAZ in the 70th. And not only did i do a plan with less time committment than the typical high volume plan out there (like the one i was following before i saw a video on Beginner Triahlete of 2 dudes talking about IM Execution...) but i have also only done 90% of the prescribed workouts! I actually had a faster swim time this year than last, and i can tell you that it had nothing to do with the time i put in the pool this year, because those are most of the workouts i missed... So take that Jordan Rapp!
It's getting harder to not go check to see what's going on over there. Trying...so...hard...
It's like a train wreck...gotta...go....look...
aaahhh, damn...I'm going over to see what all the fuss is about
seriously, tho. hate to see the direction that ST has gone over the last few years. when I first got into tri's, I did absorb alot of info from there. there was 'good energy' then, or, I was just ready to absorb anything and everything tri and physiology and aero related.
Now, I just go over there for this kind of train wreck entertainment.
Never thought about people hatin' us at a race cuz we're sporting the EN kit, tho. Won't stop me, but it will motivate me to train smart/execute/race well so that I can represent da Haus and show others that #workworks, and that there's good people here too, with no need to convince 'you' as to why our way is the 'only' way.
-This particular episode has actually cleared up a big mystery for me. I have been a long time free rider of a lot of the free EN content available to the world (podcasts, seminars, blogs, etc). It always struck me as a bit strange that PandR always seemed a bit defensive and eager to "prove/justify" their views and coaching methodology. I obviously liked what I heard and read, as I am now a member of the team and am busy drinking the Kool-Aid and embracing the methodology. The (IMHO) unprofessionalism and personal disrespect shown in the ST thread now enables me to connect the dots and understand PandR's attitude and push. I believe that the methodology in EN will work for me, the typical average Joe with a real world job, family, and life outside of the sport; but I also believe that other people succeed using different techniques. So while I embrace the EN Kool-Aid, I don't automatically disrespect other techniques and coaching methology. Its unfortunate that others in the tri-space can't express a differing viewpoint without attacking a person personally.
On a lighter note, I actually laughed out loud when I read the ST response that referenced Crowie and his training methodology as a justification that Rich's article was off-base. I have the greatest respect & admiration for pro's and their lifestyle, but I also know that there is every few pieces of their training plans that I could ever accomplish.
Rich, had you just taken Jordan up on his over-priced website advertising deal he would think EN is GREAT!!! ST is great place for info, but so is people magazine, just make sure you know what is for entertainment only Way to go Team, it is so nice to see us all rally around our coaches and koolaid
BTW,, RnP I shaved my head, sent all my money to you, sold my house, disowned my wife and kids, and Im driving to Monrovia, CA.......I'll be there soon!!
You have the right idea. It does amaze me that zealots are out there. But then again, when you spend 20 hr (or in some peoples cases 30 hr) per week you need to truly believe you're doing the right thing. That includes anyone who thinks you're nuts. That includes family member, co-worker or other people who are not true believers in your training plan. We see this behavior in politics (left vs right), computer (apple vs PC). And the internet makes it easy to slander the non believers.
Many ways to skin a cat. I choose to start my training season by locking myself in my basement for 3 month.... Yup--sounds strange. But dang it, it works for me!
(with apologies to a beer spokesman)
I don't always train for a triathlon, but when I do train with EN!
As I texted to one of the many folks who reached out to me yesterday with a heads up to the discussion on ST, it's always better to hold the higher ground. Or more specifically, I said:
"I love coaches who don't say what they do anywhere, unless you pay them high dollar fees, but are free to condemn anyone else. Must be liberating knowing that only 8-10 folks can actually hold you accountable for your coaching."
Thanks to all of you for representing the Team over on ST, and more importantly representing EN on a daily basis with how you train and on race day with your mad execution skills. Part of the price we, RnP, pay for pushing the envelope for AG triathletes is attention like this. As much as what they say stings, remember that good or bad, publicity helps Endurance Nation. That thread has been viewed more times than any advertisement we could ever create and distribute.
Besides, Rich has a really thick skin and I have way more important things to think about (like how to get 5 trick or treating girls into my car tonight) than to sweat what those guys say. This is, after all, just a game.
This whole debate is a little bizar to me...Maybe its b/c I'm just a middle of the pack guy who's enjoying the experience of it all and I will admit that I have never been inthe forums of ST. I suspect that most of the ST haters are filled with the folks I saw at Placid sending out bad vibes at the Expo Center. Glad I didn't find them first b/c I probably would have been turned off. Why anyone on ST would get so fired up by a simple concept of not doing bricks/doing bricks/not swimming in the winter is really kind of silly isn't it. I certainly don't need a "Study" to undertand the concept and wouldnt' really put a lot of money down on just one assessment. I certainly wasn't thinking at mile 22 of the run, "damn, If I had just done more bricks all would be well now".
I'm so glad I know enough now after joining EN to not sit on my trainer for 3 hours during the winter vice just knocking out a spin class or a 45 trainer session BUT i certainly don't get MAD at the person who decides to do zone 2 for 3 hour in his basement. Also don't get mad at someone swimming in the winter. heck, if I had more time I probably would swim in the winter and do longer rides BUT I joined EN b/c I saw Patrick explaining how a busy AGer with a job,kids, and family, can get in on the ironman experience with a limited number of hours/week. Imagine that same video with somone saying "The only way to do Ironman is to devote 25 hours a week". That's really just not true. I guess for a large group of people its really about the experience and getting to that finish line. Multiple ways to get there but some are just more efficient and effective than others.
I haven't gone over to ST since early yesterday when thread was posted and it began to go sideways. First, I have actual work to do over here for the real people who actually pay me to coach them and stuff
These days my answer to situations like this is "go _here_ to read what my athletes have to say about what we do and create a _trial here_ to come inside and see for yourself, talk to me and my folks yourself, and decide if we are a good fit."
We are not a black box, we want you to try before you buy because the quality of the community is a direct result of giving people for whom we are not a good fit the opportunity to screen themselves and not join the team.
Regarding the no brick thing, everything we have to say about the matter was in the blog post and I reiterated it again in my first post to this thread. Here it is again at the bottom of this post.
In the spirit of having a conversation with the people, YOU, whose opinions actually matter to us:
On Data vs Anecdote
If we were having beers and this topic came up, I would say:
"Billy, you're a lawyer/baker/candlestick maker and have been doing it for a lot of years. You seem to be pretty good at it and I'm sure you've learned a lot. Specifically, I bet there was stuff you read, were taught, were told by others when you started your gig. But then, through the application of years, successes, failures, and simple experience, the width and depth of what you know about your gig as expanded greatly...correct? So while I understand that this coaching book/magazine article says this, your training partner says that, and your experience is this other thing...I just sayin' I'm a guy who has 10yrs x 400x 1:1 coached IM finishers + 400-500 person team with > 1000 IM finishes in 2011 alone. I've observed a LOT of stuff over the years and my distillation of that stuff is into _these_ thoughts on coaching people, how athletes should consider training, etc. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying the other way is wrong, I just feel that our way is better and _this_ is the data set (or anecdote set, I suppose
On "Hack" Coaches
Now, you're a very successful lawyer, been doing it for 10yrs and you know your stuff. You've worked hundreds of cases. But a lawyer with 2yrs experience, has worked about a dozen cases, drops into your office and says you're doing it all wrong, this is what he learned in law school...our gig is often the same thing. I can tell you story after story after story of athletes I've helped out, often pro bono, who had been given flat out wrong or dangerous advice from the local coach who simply did not understand Ironman coaching to the extent that I do.
But more importantly, this is about what is the definition of coaching and what is the fee attached to that relationship?
If you don't attach a price tag to the definition then you're not talking apples and oranges. So when Paulo, or Jordan, or MarkyV, or DesertDude, or JoeCoachoftheMonth, or JackassRepresentingthemselvesasaprofessionalwithoutusingtheirrealname (huge pet peeve for me) says that coaching is:
I ask "ok...what are you charging for that? $200? $300? $500/mo? I used to be at $400/mo, working my way up from $85/mo over years and years. But none of my athletes are paying us more than $99/mo. Many are paying us much, much less.
So rather than talk about what you do for your $400/mo, let's talk about what you would do for $99/mo and then compare that to what we do for $99/mo." I’ll have that conversation. All. Day.
The reply from many of these guys would be "well, I coach people because I want to help them, I sincerely want to be part of their success and I believe that anything less than one-on-one coaching is beneath me." I get that, great. My reply is:
Expensive, high touch, 1:1 coaching is a business model first, coaching method second.
It's a business model that’s enabled by the fact that:
For whatever reason, the market price for 1:1 coaching in the tri space is pretty high compared to other sports
90-95% of triathlon coaches are coaching part time, as a second gig. 12-15 athletes x $300/mo = pretty good money on top of your other, real world gig! You're only accountable to, are challenged by 12-15 people who've selected themselves, through a pricing mechanism, to pretty much think like you...or who are paying you to do the thinking for them so they don’t have to. I would ask that coach “do you have real job, a mortgage, a family, is your family happy that you’ve pinned your income at $x/yr, and I suppose you plan to work until you’re 85yo...”
But it’s a coaching model second...because there are MANY other sports where 1:1 coaching is not how it’s done. In these sports, people are coached as a team, like we do here -- running clubs, marathon clubs, cycling teams, track workouts, ALL of the ball sports, swim teams, etc. If their coaching/delivery of service model works, well, why can’t it work over here in the triathlon space?
That’s where PnI found ourselves in the summer of 2007: in a place where we felt limited -- professional growth-wise, personally, and financially -- by the 1:1 coaching model. We wanted to scale what was in our heads.
If you look at any other coaching businesses with several coaches on staff (D3, Endurance Corner, CTS, TrainingBible, and many, many more) that is a business which reached this same how-to-scale fork in the road. They chose the fork with lets them continue to drive that $$$ 1:1 coaching model down the road, but with several other coaches in the backseat.
We chose a completely different, untested, no idea where this goes road -- team coaching. We’ve been building this motorhome as we’ve been driving it, with you in it, and we like to think it’s much improved over the ‘07 model, and we are committed to continually improving it.
Is all of ^this^ too much information? I dunno, maybe. But we are your leaders, you’re our bosses and our friends. For the trial members and new folks on board...we are going to be at your races.
You’re going to introduce me to your wife and kids and I’ll be the first person to shake your hand when you cross the finishline. This above is how we roll, you might as well learn it now :-)
If someone can find the study for me I'd be happy to read it and comment on it, over here, not on Slowtwitch. Or maybe, dunno, too busy doing other stuff for you folks like writing, creating season plans, moving the new OS plans into the site here, etc.
But my primary contention is this: the reason why many people underperform on the run is NOT because they haven't done a lot of bricks. Clearly, they have been doing a lot bricks and are still not running well off the bike.
The reason is because they are riding too hard or running too fast in the first 6-8 miles of the run.
You only need to stand at mile 1 of any Ironman run course to see this, expecially on a two lap run course. Just stand at mile 1, all day.
If you didn't know any better you'd think that 2/3rds of the field was going to run a sub 3:30 marathon...cuz there sure are a lot people running sub 8's in the first 1 mile.
Then watch these same people at mile 14. VERY few, if any of them are running in the same zip code as their 1 mile split.
Then teleport yourself out to mile 18-20....it's far worse out there.
You may call it anecdotal...and it is. I call it observation and thinking critically about what the sport says you should do vs how it all actually plays out on race day.
Our method then, of making you faster, is:
Create more opportunity, through effective, intelligent scheduling, to have you running faster, more often. This has been proven to make you a faster runner.
_That_ applied over weeks and months creates durability and endurance.
Put you out on the course with the race execution tools that keep you from doing what everyone else does...pacing poorly. Instead, you race according to a system that has been vetted across over 1000 full and half IM finishes in 2011 alone.
I feel like your business model and value scares the 1:1 guys who view EN as a serious threat to their livelihood. They are never going to admit that publicly. But, why is a surprise they would fight back? The marketplace will sort out who's right and who's wrong. Lets stay focused on making EN better as you always have and watch them squirm some more. Just my 2 cents.
Rich, as a business manager, I really like your thoughtful approach to the various business models in the triathlon coaching world. Very interesting, well thought out, and well stated. Jordan is hung up on a elite coach being someone who coaches a small stable of pro's as opposed to a couple of guys who've coached 1000's ... who come to them with real life time constraints ... to major improvements and personal success. It's a whole different measure of elite that he either can't or won't grasp. The other thing I thought strange about his rants was how hung up he was on a single study. There is an article on Mark Allen in the latest copy of Lava in which he noted that findings from a single study that might take place over a few weeks to a couple of months cannot necessarily be extrapolated to an entire season or many seasons. And that's where your experience has come to play as well as all the long time triathletes that came to the same conclusion. It's just very surprising that he completely missed that point (or as we would say in statistics...you cannot extrapolate beyond the bounds of the data). Keep pluggin!
Back to the question, "so is there a physiological basis for doing bricks?" Jordan Rapp, who when I met him a year ago at IM AZ less than an hour after his comback race, freely and graciously gave me some of his time even though obviously exhausted, is well known for his smarts - Princeton grad in engineering, etc. But even top scientists sometimes don't always clearly think through their arguments - that's why we have "peer review".
Mike Graffeo nails it when he notes that, even if there is a proven difference in the electro and mechanical physiology of muscle firing and lower limb movement when running after hard cycling, that study showed no evidence (and it was not designed to) that incorporating runs right after a hard bike will improve run performance in a triathlon. Or that NOT doing bricks will degrade race performance (which I think is Rapp's position). There seems to be no scientific evidence on the pertinent question. We see this all the time in medicine: basic science shows a relationship between a molecular process and a clinical disease. A drug improves that molecular process, so it should help with the disease. Try the drug - it makes no diference! Or even makes things worse! Ya gotta measure the outcome you are interested in, not the presumed intermediate process.
I am one who will continue to do bricks, once or twice a week, for several reasons: time efficiency; I like how tired it makes me feel at the end; I suspect waiting to run several hours after a hard bike is a set up for injury (inflammation has already set in); my nutritional needs get all bollixed up if I try to deal with recovery eating more than once a day. But not because I think it will specifically improve my legs' ability to run after I bike.
Just reading through that one thread on ST has really gotten me in a bad mood. I think what most people don't understand about EN is that so much of the value comes from the community of athletes working together to solve the triathlon puzzle. We don't mindlessly follow training plans and are in fact encouraged to think about what we are doing in training/racing and why. When we have questions there is a place to discuss them and get feedback from athletes of all abilities as well as the coaches. EN isn't as much about coaching athletes as it is about teaching athletes to coach themselves. I guess when you are used to a dictatorship style of coaching where athletes are expected to blindly follow a plan it may seem strange to present "radical" ideas to the athletes. Here in EN all ideas presented are discussed, tested, and broken down in intelligent conversations. EN's power is in the combined intelligence/experience of all who contribute as well as having such a great team atmosphere to keep things fun.
@ David - Reading your last sentence I couldn't help but think that EN has the best traits of the Borg in Star Wars. You must drink the Kool-Aid...Resistance is Futile!
Wow, just read my first ST forum post and I feel dirty...Imagine how much larger the ego would be if these Elite types actually got paid real money for going fast...JEEZ...get over yourself.. OK, back to the positive world of EN...time for a nice cup of koolaid...
Great response Rich. I just wanted to let the newbs know that this line......
You’re going to introduce me to your wife and kids and I’ll be the first person to shake your hand when you cross the finishline. This above is how we roll, you might as well learn it now :-)
....Is very true!
Rich was in the middle of the road as I entered the finish chute at Couer d'Alene to give me a high fives then met me after the finish line to hear all about it. After I got showered and changed he met my wife and I for beers at the local hang out. Bet Joe Freil, Mark Allen, or Paulo wouldn't have done that for a 11:57:47 guy.
5x what Steve said about Rich @ IMCDA. And I mean 5 times. That's how many times I saw Rich on the CDA course (2x on the bike course, 2x on the run and he was in the middle of the road shouting encouragement, and then at the finish line to shake my hand). But what do I know ...I thought that's what all the coaches did, even for a 12:50 finisher.
I couldn't help myself... I gave up reading slowbitch years ago, but I just had to post this this PM:
EN only for beginner/intermediates? THAT'S bull. For five years I struggled just below the KQ bubble, in the top 5-10% of my AG at IMs. Once I started using EN race execution principles (freely available on the website, and in the coaches' talk before every US Ironman), I broke thru and qualified for Hawaii. Once I actually started paying them money and using the training principles year-round, I won my AG three times, setting an AG course record each time. But as others have said, the more important reasons I stick around paying $720/year are the over-the-top customer service of Rich and Patrick, and the civil community of triathletes I find myself a part of.
And, of course, I got crap for it.(That would never happen here) Sigh ...
Comments
Posted By Paul Hough on 27 Oct 2011 09:43 PM
Jordan may be a great triathlete, but when it comes to interacting with age groupers he has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is a total hack. I really do like most of what Jordan offers to the tri world. IMO, he'd be the best ambassador the pros could have to represent them within the tri world. He really understands the pros role and importance (or lack thereof) within the world of triathlon. He's a very, very bright guy (he pretty much has a rocket science degree from Princeton) and his comeback from a near fatal accident to win IM races again is the absolute stuff of legend. Where Jordan goes askew is with his lack of understanding when it comes to everyday AG training. I can understand that a genetic freak like him has some troubles relating to us mere mortals but he really doesn't understand what makes us tick and consistently makes dopey comments in that regard.
Remember: When you wrestle with a pig, you get really dirty.......and the pig likes it!
Guys, don't waste your time or breath with this.
@ Terry, let's get rear view mirrors and block him on the bike. 3 lap bike course means lots of AG lapping for him.
@ all, should we invite him to the 4 keys talk?
In the reality section of this post. I actually almost never read ST or even training articles in magazines. I feel that i have subscribed to the EN way and it is going to work for me, or it isnt. I am willing to bet that most any training plan will make me stronger and faster (by running more and biking more). if anything, the other plans will have me doing everything more.
I subscribe to the EN way because it is based on the premise of high ROI for the AGer. I have a few friends/acquaintences who ask about EN and i am trying to get them into the haus. when they ask me what i like about it, #1 on the list is the fact above. High ROI, reach your potential in the least amount of time possible.
I tell them I went from OS workouts of 60-90 minutes, did a 2 week transition and then a plan building mileage for 12 weeks and did IMKY in the 50th percentile compared to my pre OS finish of IMAZ in the 70th. And not only did i do a plan with less time committment than the typical high volume plan out there (like the one i was following before i saw a video on Beginner Triahlete of 2 dudes talking about IM Execution...) but i have also only done 90% of the prescribed workouts! I actually had a faster swim time this year than last, and i can tell you that it had nothing to do with the time i put in the pool this year, because those are most of the workouts i missed... So take that Jordan Rapp!
It's like a train wreck...gotta...go....look...
aaahhh, damn...I'm going over to see what all the fuss is about
seriously, tho. hate to see the direction that ST has gone over the last few years. when I first got into tri's, I did absorb alot of info from there. there was 'good energy' then, or, I was just ready to absorb anything and everything tri and physiology and aero related.
Now, I just go over there for this kind of train wreck entertainment.
Never thought about people hatin' us at a race cuz we're sporting the EN kit, tho. Won't stop me, but it will motivate me to train smart/execute/race well so that I can represent da Haus and show others that #workworks, and that there's good people here too, with no need to convince 'you' as to why our way is the 'only' way.
On a lighter note, I actually laughed out loud when I read the ST response that referenced Crowie and his training methodology as a justification that Rich's article was off-base. I have the greatest respect & admiration for pro's and their lifestyle, but I also know that there is every few pieces of their training plans that I could ever accomplish.
had you just taken Jordan up on his over-priced website advertising deal he would think EN is GREAT!!!
ST is great place for info, but so is people magazine, just make sure you know what is for entertainment only
Way to go Team, it is so nice to see us all rally around our coaches and koolaid
Wow.....Paulo referred to us as a "cult"...
BTW,, RnP I shaved my head, sent all my money to you, sold my house, disowned my wife and kids, and Im driving to Monrovia, CA.......I'll be there soon!!
A lot of them just Like To train a lot!
EN is "less is more" or "ROI" based
Mike--
You have the right idea. It does amaze me that zealots are out there. But then again, when you spend 20 hr (or in some peoples cases 30 hr) per week you need to truly believe you're doing the right thing. That includes anyone who thinks you're nuts. That includes family member, co-worker or other people who are not true believers in your training plan. We see this behavior in politics (left vs right), computer (apple vs PC). And the internet makes it easy to slander the non believers.
Many ways to skin a cat. I choose to start my training season by locking myself in my basement for 3 month.... Yup--sounds strange. But dang it, it works for me!
(with apologies to a beer spokesman)
I don't always train for a triathlon, but when I do train with EN!
Let the EN actions/results/Podium placings speak. Words are words and will always be, only words..................
"I love coaches who don't say what they do anywhere, unless you pay them high dollar fees, but are free to condemn anyone else. Must be liberating knowing that only 8-10 folks can actually hold you accountable for your coaching."
Thanks to all of you for representing the Team over on ST, and more importantly representing EN on a daily basis with how you train and on race day with your mad execution skills. Part of the price we, RnP, pay for pushing the envelope for AG triathletes is attention like this. As much as what they say stings, remember that good or bad, publicity helps Endurance Nation. That thread has been viewed more times than any advertisement we could ever create and distribute.
Besides, Rich has a really thick skin and I have way more important things to think about (like how to get 5 trick or treating girls into my car tonight) than to sweat what those guys say. This is, after all, just a game.
You guys rock...
RnP......If I can speak for most of us, we view you as coaches but most importantly, friends, so we can't help but come to your defense!
@ Coach P and Michael - Well said! Way to lead...............
I'm so glad I know enough now after joining EN to not sit on my trainer for 3 hours during the winter vice just knocking out a spin class or a 45 trainer session BUT i certainly don't get MAD at the person who decides to do zone 2 for 3 hour in his basement. Also don't get mad at someone swimming in the winter. heck, if I had more time I probably would swim in the winter and do longer rides BUT I joined EN b/c I saw Patrick explaining how a busy AGer with a job,kids, and family, can get in on the ironman experience with a limited number of hours/week. Imagine that same video with somone saying "The only way to do Ironman is to devote 25 hours a week". That's really just not true. I guess for a large group of people its really about the experience and getting to that finish line. Multiple ways to get there but some are just more efficient and effective than others.
All,
I haven't gone over to ST since early yesterday when thread was posted and it began to go sideways. First, I have actual work to do over here for the real people who actually pay me to coach them and stuff
These days my answer to situations like this is "go _here_ to read what my athletes have to say about what we do and create a _trial here_ to come inside and see for yourself, talk to me and my folks yourself, and decide if we are a good fit."
We are not a black box, we want you to try before you buy because the quality of the community is a direct result of giving people for whom we are not a good fit the opportunity to screen themselves and not join the team.
Regarding the no brick thing, everything we have to say about the matter was in the blog post and I reiterated it again in my first post to this thread. Here it is again at the bottom of this post.
In the spirit of having a conversation with the people, YOU, whose opinions actually matter to us:
On Data vs Anecdote
If we were having beers and this topic came up, I would say:
"Billy, you're a lawyer/baker/candlestick maker and have been doing it for a lot of years. You seem to be pretty good at it and I'm sure you've learned a lot. Specifically, I bet there was stuff you read, were taught, were told by others when you started your gig. But then, through the application of years, successes, failures, and simple experience, the width and depth of what you know about your gig as expanded greatly...correct? So while I understand that this coaching book/magazine article says this, your training partner says that, and your experience is this other thing...I just sayin' I'm a guy who has 10yrs x 400x 1:1 coached IM finishers + 400-500 person team with > 1000 IM finishes in 2011 alone. I've observed a LOT of stuff over the years and my distillation of that stuff is into _these_ thoughts on coaching people, how athletes should consider training, etc. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying the other way is wrong, I just feel that our way is better and _this_ is the data set (or anecdote set, I suppose
On "Hack" Coaches
Now, you're a very successful lawyer, been doing it for 10yrs and you know your stuff. You've worked hundreds of cases. But a lawyer with 2yrs experience, has worked about a dozen cases, drops into your office and says you're doing it all wrong, this is what he learned in law school...our gig is often the same thing. I can tell you story after story after story of athletes I've helped out, often pro bono, who had been given flat out wrong or dangerous advice from the local coach who simply did not understand Ironman coaching to the extent that I do.
But more importantly, this is about what is the definition of coaching and what is the fee attached to that relationship?
If you don't attach a price tag to the definition then you're not talking apples and oranges. So when Paulo, or Jordan, or MarkyV, or DesertDude, or JoeCoachoftheMonth, or JackassRepresentingthemselvesasaprofessionalwithoutusingtheirrealname (huge pet peeve for me) says that coaching is:
I ask "ok...what are you charging for that? $200? $300? $500/mo? I used to be at $400/mo, working my way up from $85/mo over years and years. But none of my athletes are paying us more than $99/mo. Many are paying us much, much less.
So rather than talk about what you do for your $400/mo, let's talk about what you would do for $99/mo and then compare that to what we do for $99/mo." I’ll have that conversation. All. Day.
The reply from many of these guys would be "well, I coach people because I want to help them, I sincerely want to be part of their success and I believe that anything less than one-on-one coaching is beneath me." I get that, great. My reply is:
Expensive, high touch, 1:1 coaching is a business model first, coaching method second.
It's a business model that’s enabled by the fact that:
But it’s a coaching model second...because there are MANY other sports where 1:1 coaching is not how it’s done. In these sports, people are coached as a team, like we do here -- running clubs, marathon clubs, cycling teams, track workouts, ALL of the ball sports, swim teams, etc. If their coaching/delivery of service model works, well, why can’t it work over here in the triathlon space?
That’s where PnI found ourselves in the summer of 2007: in a place where we felt limited -- professional growth-wise, personally, and financially -- by the 1:1 coaching model. We wanted to scale what was in our heads.
If you look at any other coaching businesses with several coaches on staff (D3, Endurance Corner, CTS, TrainingBible, and many, many more) that is a business which reached this same how-to-scale fork in the road. They chose the fork with lets them continue to drive that $$$ 1:1 coaching model down the road, but with several other coaches in the backseat.
We chose a completely different, untested, no idea where this goes road -- team coaching. We’ve been building this motorhome as we’ve been driving it, with you in it, and we like to think it’s much improved over the ‘07 model, and we are committed to continually improving it.
Is all of ^this^ too much information? I dunno, maybe. But we are your leaders, you’re our bosses and our friends. For the trial members and new folks on board...we are going to be at your races.
You’re going to introduce me to your wife and kids and I’ll be the first person to shake your hand when you cross the finishline. This above is how we roll, you might as well learn it now :-)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If someone can find the study for me I'd be happy to read it and comment on it, over here, not on Slowtwitch. Or maybe, dunno, too busy doing other stuff for you folks like writing, creating season plans, moving the new OS plans into the site here, etc.
But my primary contention is this: the reason why many people underperform on the run is NOT because they haven't done a lot of bricks. Clearly, they have been doing a lot bricks and are still not running well off the bike.
The reason is because they are riding too hard or running too fast in the first 6-8 miles of the run.
You only need to stand at mile 1 of any Ironman run course to see this, expecially on a two lap run course. Just stand at mile 1, all day.
You may call it anecdotal...and it is. I call it observation and thinking critically about what the sport says you should do vs how it all actually plays out on race day.
Our method then, of making you faster, is:
Back to the question, "so is there a physiological basis for doing bricks?" Jordan Rapp, who when I met him a year ago at IM AZ less than an hour after his comback race, freely and graciously gave me some of his time even though obviously exhausted, is well known for his smarts - Princeton grad in engineering, etc. But even top scientists sometimes don't always clearly think through their arguments - that's why we have "peer review".
Mike Graffeo nails it when he notes that, even if there is a proven difference in the electro and mechanical physiology of muscle firing and lower limb movement when running after hard cycling, that study showed no evidence (and it was not designed to) that incorporating runs right after a hard bike will improve run performance in a triathlon. Or that NOT doing bricks will degrade race performance (which I think is Rapp's position). There seems to be no scientific evidence on the pertinent question. We see this all the time in medicine: basic science shows a relationship between a molecular process and a clinical disease. A drug improves that molecular process, so it should help with the disease. Try the drug - it makes no diference! Or even makes things worse! Ya gotta measure the outcome you are interested in, not the presumed intermediate process.
I am one who will continue to do bricks, once or twice a week, for several reasons: time efficiency; I like how tired it makes me feel at the end; I suspect waiting to run several hours after a hard bike is a set up for injury (inflammation has already set in); my nutritional needs get all bollixed up if I try to deal with recovery eating more than once a day. But not because I think it will specifically improve my legs' ability to run after I bike.
Just reading through that one thread on ST has really gotten me in a bad mood. I think what most people don't understand about EN is that so much of the value comes from the community of athletes working together to solve the triathlon puzzle. We don't mindlessly follow training plans and are in fact encouraged to think about what we are doing in training/racing and why. When we have questions there is a place to discuss them and get feedback from athletes of all abilities as well as the coaches. EN isn't as much about coaching athletes as it is about teaching athletes to coach themselves. I guess when you are used to a dictatorship style of coaching where athletes are expected to blindly follow a plan it may seem strange to present "radical" ideas to the athletes. Here in EN all ideas presented are discussed, tested, and broken down in intelligent conversations. EN's power is in the combined intelligence/experience of all who contribute as well as having such a great team atmosphere to keep things fun.
Sorry Al, had to check it out...
bollix
bol·lix
verb 'bä-liks
Definition of BOLLIX
transitive verb
: to throw into disorder; also : bungle —usually used with up
— bollix noun
See bollix defined for English-language learners »
Examples of BOLLIX
That delay has bollixed our schedule.
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3605894;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
OK, back to the positive world of EN...time for a nice cup of koolaid...
Great response Rich. I just wanted to let the newbs know that this line......
You’re going to introduce me to your wife and kids and I’ll be the first person to shake your hand when you cross the finishline. This above is how we roll, you might as well learn it now :-)
....Is very true!
Rich was in the middle of the road as I entered the finish chute at Couer d'Alene to give me a high fives then met me after the finish line to hear all about it. After I got showered and changed he met my wife and I for beers at the local hang out. Bet Joe Freil, Mark Allen, or Paulo wouldn't have done that for a 11:57:47 guy.
Keep up the good work RnP....we got your BACK!
5x what Steve said about Rich @ IMCDA. And I mean 5 times. That's how many times I saw Rich on the CDA course (2x on the bike course, 2x on the run and he was in the middle of the road shouting encouragement, and then at the finish line to shake my hand). But what do I know ...I thought that's what all the coaches did, even for a 12:50 finisher.
EN only for beginner/intermediates? THAT'S bull. For five years I struggled just below the KQ bubble, in the top 5-10% of my AG at IMs. Once I started using EN race execution principles (freely available on the website, and in the coaches' talk before every US Ironman), I broke thru and qualified for Hawaii. Once I actually started paying them money and using the training principles year-round, I won my AG three times, setting an AG course record each time. But as others have said, the more important reasons I stick around paying $720/year are the over-the-top customer service of Rich and Patrick, and the civil community of triathletes I find myself a part of.
And, of course, I got crap for it.(That would never happen here) Sigh ...