I'm in the early stages of my PAP rebuild now... fingers crossed my results are as good as Linda's!
The coach and doc showed me Linda's video when I was there and compared mine to hers... sadly my percentage hip drop was actually worse on at least one side (possibly both), my hips were all over the place and, like Linda, my tush wasn't doing anything at all. Because of my crazy feet (collapsing arches), they put me in orthotics ASAP, which they are admittedly hesitant to do, but I couldn't avoid it. And, until I got them I was prohibited from even walking any great distance. Oh, and they told me never ever ever wear minimalist shoes... they might work for neutral-footed folks, but I'm not one of em and wearing Newton's the last year and a half probably sped up my eventual demise.
Fortunately I have good posture and flexibility, which cut out many weeks/months of initial work that many PAP clients have to go through. I started right in on strengthening my hips and improving core stability. I cleared level one within 4 weeks (doing various things catered to my areas of weakness, such as clamshells, bridges, modified planks, etc). When I clear level 2 I'll be able to start running. I'm not even cleared to lift weights yet, which is a bummer... but they want to be sure I have the correct form and range of motion when I do anything. So, I'm following the rules knowing it'll be worth it in the long run (ha ha...punny).
I took a train to meet them the first time (Amtrak stops in Old Saybrook, CT) and have skyped with them since... easy as can be. As Linda mentioned, they're doing more online stuff now, but I will likely go back personally when I'm ready to run. These guys are super passionate about what they do... they want to help you be your best! I'm so glad Linda told me about them (and Tracy and Michele C confirmed their awesomeness).
It's a bummer that I haven't run since July, but I'm so optimistic that when I do I won't be causing more problems for myself down the line.
So happy for you! Don't be sad you haven't run since July. That's part of the rebuild for some of us who need the drastic measures. :-) Just wait until you get back out there. That's when you'll know it's all been worth it--and then some! It's really a Zen paradox--take time off to rebuild your body, then you are strong enough to fly. Because, seriously, how was the other approach working for you and me? Nice work and keep the faith!
I had my analysis done on this past Thursday. Kurt and Al were unbelievably amazing in how they could diagnose so many issues that I had. They were able to describe to me what would likely hurt and get tired first and they were spot on. I have a lot of work to do, but hopefully it will make me healthier, stronger, and faster long term. I've just started all of the core and exercise stuff that Becky and Linda described.
As a funny aside, my wife's coach posted an article on her blog that my was reading to me as we drove to Pittsburgh for Christmas. About half way through I stopped her and remarked how similar it sounded to the philosophy of the PAP guys... Once she got to the end, we realized that it actually was written by them! Small world. Here's the article: http://www.xtri.com/features/detail/284-itemId.511713519.html
I'll keep you posted with my progression. I'm a little scared to be doing core work in the OS in lieu of any running, but what the hell... i'm hoping extra biking will keep my fitness high.
They really turned their noses up on my Newtons. I personally attribute my Newtons from taking my running form from downright terrible to kind of almost just a bit bad. I'm going to lose them now for something that actually has a much higher heel... We'll see...
I'd love to know their reasoning for no Newtons. Essentially it is a minimalist shoe. And I'm not saying they don't have something here, but to look down upon other "fads", when they are in essence promoting another fad, is a bit of an eye roller for me.
Tucker you're always so negative... From 15 yrs of wrestling I have protective bony protrusions on the bottom front of my Tibias that my body has grown over the yrs as a way to protect my ankles from the numerous injuries I have gotten. I have always known that my ankles are incredibly inflexible (but this is not soft tissue tightness that can be stretched).. This bony stop makes it nearly impossible for me to lean far enough forward if hinged at my ankles even if I am barefoot. Because the Newtons have the lugs at the forefoot and are slightly higher in the front they actually cause me to hit this stopping point even earlier, only exacerbating my biomechanical problem. If I'm in a shoe that has an elevated heel (instead of an elevated forefoot) then they will angle me slightly forward in neutral position instead of slightly backwards. This should allow me to lean farther forward before my bony protrusions stop me. I was trying to "lean" forward but when my ankles stopped me, I bent at the waist but didn't realize it. This led to a continuous stretch of my hamstrings and glutes so these muscles were essentially under constant load and not actually being used to help me run. So most of my running was done with just my quads which would get fried after a while. This also put excess stress on my lower back with long or hard runs.
Diagnosis: 1) lose the Newtons and replace with a high heel shoe (maybe the opposite end of the fad shoe spectrum like Hoke-one-one Bondi B's) 2) strengthen my lower core (and glutes) for much better mobilization/stabilization 3) stretch and lengthen my external rotators 4) eventually put all of these together to run more efficiently with much less wasted energy
@John, not negative, just think it is wise to keep a healthy does of skepticism. Linda's results are amazing. But that is only one data point. As I said, it is interesting and would love to hear more about it. Might have to buy you a beer after the holidays....
One data point? Yes, one data point in here. How about the work they do with Lis Kenyon, Kona record holder (they coach her too), and the US ultrarunner champ Debbie Livingston? How about the lineman from the Oakland Raiders and the gymnast on the Olympic team? Jarrod Shoemaker is soon on the way in. Those are some of the "stars." They have also worked with hundreds of athletes like you and me. I thik there are lots of good people in the world who do good work with athletes, but these guys are exceptional. No doubt in my mind.
One of the things they would say about Newtons is that once again, athletes are looking for the answers from the outside in. The Newton's can't fix what you don't have on the inside. Have they helped you? Imagine how much better you'd be if you used them AFTER you buildt the proper strong, stable, and mobile, athletic body.
And, dang, I missed John at PAP by, literally, minutes! I was there that day. Would have been so nice to say hey.
This is something that I have been thinking about for a long time, and all these great reveiws sold me.
I have an appointment on the 5th.Figure that I will make a holiday of it. I would rather drive a few hours and go to someone so well review then stay close to be home and not be confident in where I am going. I am sure that I could use a serious run work-over and I know I drop my right hip, I hope that is all.
Wow, lots of info on this! Nice job on your rebuild! It looks like you've had several months of training since the rebuild. Any races or fitness test results since the rebuild? IOW-how has the work with them translated into your races and/or VDOT? Kind of asking for the "before and after" stuff. Thanks!!!
Wow, lots of info on this! Nice job on your rebuild! It looks like you've had several months of training since the rebuild. Any races or fitness test results since the rebuild? IOW-how has the work with them translated into your races and/or VDOT? Kind of asking for the "before and after" stuff. Thanks!!!
Hi Michael--
Will let you know this year. I ended up developing (out of the blue) afib last summer, and had a cardiac issues then an ablation right in the middle of racing season. So the data will come this year, as I had some serious recovery to tend to. Just getting to race a Vdot again now. All I know is that I can now drop easily into low 7s on run--and I haven't done that in probably 5 years or more. My FTP is back within 3 of my all-time hight in 2008, and I start the OS in Jan. I moved up a lane in masters. Looking good so far.
I've got my appointment this Saturday with the guys at PAP. I'm almost dreading what they have to say but looking forward to fixing whatever issue it is that's causing my hip pain and just learning how to run more efficiently.
A couple of observations about Newtons, you can take it for what it's worth: I started running in them October 2010 and last year was when I developed my hip issue and also the only time that I have ever lost my big toe nails after an Ironman.
I also did something really stupid in my off-season - running without my orthotics; I somehow convinced myself that I needed to learn to run without my orthotics. I figured since the orthotics were prescribed by a podiatrist over 6 years ago that maybe I didn't really need them. It only took one long run of over 8 miles in Newtons to develop an injury (left arch) which is just barely healing now. I've since gone back to my orthotics and to my Brooks and running isn't as painful.
Have fun Joanna! You'll never be sorry if you do what they say, do the work, and stick with it (that's the key). Their whole philosophy os based on knowing that athetes CAN train without pain and injury. That we CAN, if strong and smart, come back year after year, and continue to progress in many ways. It's all good--and you will be too.
I was thinking a lot about all this today, my experience, and what I have learned....
Now, after being through this process and seeing SO clearly what I now know is true, I can't BELIEVE we, as athletes, go year in and year out training for events like marathons and Ironman without knowing one hoot about how our bodies are moving. OUR BODIES--the center of all power--the make or break part of ALL we want to accomplish. I can say this with impugnity, b/c for most of my life I was "that guy" trying to cram fitness on top of dysfunction year after year.
Would we ride with a wobble in our bike wheel? Or with a loose head set? Do you not make sure every single mechanical thing on your bike is working 100% optimally? Yet we run with compensation and dysfunction like dropping hips, unstable low backs, and dead glutes because we just don't know there is a better way. We try to ignore or power through injury. It's nuts, and it doesn't have to be that way. WE, our physical bodies are the most important piece of equipment we have, and yet we know so little about how we can rid ourselves of limiters--or maximize the strengths we have. There is help out there, and each of us owe it to ourselves to find it and do that work too.
Just a musing from someone who has been there and back WAY too many times. :-)
@Linda, very happy for your gains. From reading this thread a few times I almost think this should be retitled "How I rebuilt my body from scratch". Seems like you have improved not only your run, but your swim and bike also. Also, you say they gave you no coaching on the run. So it looks to me your issue was your weak core and the boys from PAP helped you with that.
Having said that, from their website:
A Key Element in Our Advanced Gait Analysis System
The Functional Movement Screen (FMS) is an innovative system, based on sound science, years of innovation, and current research, that we use to evaluate movement pattern quality for clients and athletes. The clinical staff at Pursuit Athletic Performance relies on this screen to quantify and evaluate YOUR basic movement abilities as part of our unique gait analysis system.
They have links where you can look for certified trainers in any area of the country. For people who are not local to PAP, this could be a good start to finding someone. Because maybe all most of us need is some work on our functional strength.
@Linda: I met the guys at PAP and they were great! I too have to rebuild my running from scratch as my video showed that my glutes were not firing at all. That wasn't a big shock as I suspected that my glutes weren't working at all when I ran. So it's no running for me and working on Level 1 and trying to train my brain!!!!
One item that I have recently added to my personal efforts in this regard is a Balance Board (Vew-Do brand - model: Flow )....it is amazing how unbalanced I am and how much work on the balance board helps to center my body and improve my running form....highly recommend it to everyone.
@Joanna--reach out anytime with questions or support. Do what they say and you will never be sorry. The rebuild was my "Ironman" last year. It took every bit as much work, trust, commitment and dedication. The results regarding my running--not to mention my overall health, strength, and well being--blow my mind every day. The more I do the work, the more committed I become as I just become able to handle more--and recover so much faster. Now the training can really WORK, and I can feel it. I've lived it, I get it, and the result is everything they say and more. SO happy for you.
I'm in and out of EN since I'm SO crazy with work, it's sometimes best to get me at lindapatch@gmail.com. Keep the faith and go as far as you can with the work. Can never be too strong or stable!
So everyone can see part of what these guys do, here's my "before" video analysis. So for whoever wants to laugh at the fat kid with terrible running form, here's your chance...
Travelling to PAP to meet the guys in person is not an option for me right now, but I jumped on the online evaluation! Sent in my videos and am eagerly awaiting feedback. I'm ready to get started!
@John--you don't look so bad at all! A few months of their work will make a world of difference for you.
I've been with them for a year now, and have made a huge study of movement, and how it relates to performance. I'm sold. I've studied TONS, including everything I can get my eyes on by Gray Cooke. Plus, the PAP blog now makes it easier to get a constant stream.
Anywho....my "expert" (lol!) layman's analysis what sees you "leaking speed" left and right. Every hip drop and twist of that low back robs speed and forward propulsion--not to mention how it sets you up for injury over time. When you get stable and strong, it will all work FOR you. I can also tell you it translates to the pool (greatly reduced wiggling), and in transfer of power straight down on the bike. You'll be very pleased with the results.
So keep at it, don't lose faith, and soldier on. You'll be good to go in no time!
I was with them yesterday along with my wife, the put her in run jail for at least a month. After years of PT people telling her its her hamstrings and she needs to stretch them, within about 2 minutes they figured out it was her hips flexors where to tight pulling on her hamstrings. She is pumped now to get started on getting it RIGHT!
They also have helped me in the past and when I was with them yesterday they helped me work on some form for deadlifting which will help my run in the future. Once they showed me the proper way and how I should feel I felt so much more powerfull.
Does anyone own this program? http://www.runner-core.com/ It's from the same guy from PAP, just thinking that the prescription for everyone has been "weak core, inner muscles, hips, etc" that this may solve those problems. Saves you a bundle too!
Comments
@ Linda yours is a great story and I spent time this morning checking out their info and web site and am seriously considering ths myself.
The coach and doc showed me Linda's video when I was there and compared mine to hers... sadly my percentage hip drop was actually worse on at least one side (possibly both), my hips were all over the place and, like Linda, my tush wasn't doing anything at all. Because of my crazy feet (collapsing arches), they put me in orthotics ASAP, which they are admittedly hesitant to do, but I couldn't avoid it. And, until I got them I was prohibited from even walking any great distance. Oh, and they told me never ever ever wear minimalist shoes... they might work for neutral-footed folks, but I'm not one of em and wearing Newton's the last year and a half probably sped up my eventual demise.
Fortunately I have good posture and flexibility, which cut out many weeks/months of initial work that many PAP clients have to go through. I started right in on strengthening my hips and improving core stability. I cleared level one within 4 weeks (doing various things catered to my areas of weakness, such as clamshells, bridges, modified planks, etc). When I clear level 2 I'll be able to start running. I'm not even cleared to lift weights yet, which is a bummer... but they want to be sure I have the correct form and range of motion when I do anything. So, I'm following the rules knowing it'll be worth it in the long run (ha ha...punny).
I took a train to meet them the first time (Amtrak stops in Old Saybrook, CT) and have skyped with them since... easy as can be. As Linda mentioned, they're doing more online stuff now, but I will likely go back personally when I'm ready to run. These guys are super passionate about what they do... they want to help you be your best! I'm so glad Linda told me about them (and Tracy and Michele C confirmed their awesomeness).
It's a bummer that I haven't run since July, but I'm so optimistic that when I do I won't be causing more problems for myself down the line.
Becky!
So happy for you! Don't be sad you haven't run since July. That's part of the rebuild for some of us who need the drastic measures. :-) Just wait until you get back out there. That's when you'll know it's all been worth it--and then some! It's really a Zen paradox--take time off to rebuild your body, then you are strong enough to fly. Because, seriously, how was the other approach working for you and me? Nice work and keep the faith!
As a funny aside, my wife's coach posted an article on her blog that my was reading to me as we drove to Pittsburgh for Christmas. About half way through I stopped her and remarked how similar it sounded to the philosophy of the PAP guys... Once she got to the end, we realized that it actually was written by them! Small world. Here's the article: http://www.xtri.com/features/detail/284-itemId.511713519.html
I'll keep you posted with my progression. I'm a little scared to be doing core work in the OS in lieu of any running, but what the hell... i'm hoping extra biking will keep my fitness high.
And I'm not saying they don't have something here, but to look down upon other "fads", when they are in essence promoting another fad, is a bit of an eye roller for me.
I don't believe they are looking down on Newton's. It seems as though they believe Newton's are not for everyone.
From 15 yrs of wrestling I have protective bony protrusions on the bottom front of my Tibias that my body has grown over the yrs as a way to protect my ankles from the numerous injuries I have gotten. I have always known that my ankles are incredibly inflexible (but this is not soft tissue tightness that can be stretched).. This bony stop makes it nearly impossible for me to lean far enough forward if hinged at my ankles even if I am barefoot. Because the Newtons have the lugs at the forefoot and are slightly higher in the front they actually cause me to hit this stopping point even earlier, only exacerbating my biomechanical problem. If I'm in a shoe that has an elevated heel (instead of an elevated forefoot) then they will angle me slightly forward in neutral position instead of slightly backwards. This should allow me to lean farther forward before my bony protrusions stop me. I was trying to "lean" forward but when my ankles stopped me, I bent at the waist but didn't realize it. This led to a continuous stretch of my hamstrings and glutes so these muscles were essentially under constant load and not actually being used to help me run. So most of my running was done with just my quads which would get fried after a while. This also put excess stress on my lower back with long or hard runs.
Diagnosis:
1) lose the Newtons and replace with a high heel shoe (maybe the opposite end of the fad shoe spectrum like Hoke-one-one Bondi B's)
2) strengthen my lower core (and glutes) for much better mobilization/stabilization
3) stretch and lengthen my external rotators
4) eventually put all of these together to run more efficiently with much less wasted energy
One data point? Yes, one data point in here. How about the work they do with Lis Kenyon, Kona record holder (they coach her too), and the US ultrarunner champ Debbie Livingston? How about the lineman from the Oakland Raiders and the gymnast on the Olympic team? Jarrod Shoemaker is soon on the way in. Those are some of the "stars." They have also worked with hundreds of athletes like you and me. I thik there are lots of good people in the world who do good work with athletes, but these guys are exceptional. No doubt in my mind.
One of the things they would say about Newtons is that once again, athletes are looking for the answers from the outside in. The Newton's can't fix what you don't have on the inside. Have they helped you? Imagine how much better you'd be if you used them AFTER you buildt the proper strong, stable, and mobile, athletic body.
And, dang, I missed John at PAP by, literally, minutes! I was there that day. Would have been so nice to say hey.
I have an appointment on the 5th.Figure that I will make a holiday of it. I would rather drive a few hours and go to someone so well review then stay close to be home and not be confident in where I am going. I am sure that I could use a serious run work-over and I know I drop my right hip, I hope that is all.
Hi Michael--
Will let you know this year. I ended up developing (out of the blue) afib last summer, and had a cardiac issues then an ablation right in the middle of racing season. So the data will come this year, as I had some serious recovery to tend to. Just getting to race a Vdot again now. All I know is that I can now drop easily into low 7s on run--and I haven't done that in probably 5 years or more. My FTP is back within 3 of my all-time hight in 2008, and I start the OS in Jan. I moved up a lane in masters. Looking good so far.
A couple of observations about Newtons, you can take it for what it's worth: I started running in them October 2010 and last year was when I developed my hip issue and also the only time that I have ever lost my big toe nails after an Ironman.
I also did something really stupid in my off-season - running without my orthotics; I somehow convinced myself that I needed to learn to run without my orthotics. I figured since the orthotics were prescribed by a podiatrist over 6 years ago that maybe I didn't really need them. It only took one long run of over 8 miles in Newtons to develop an injury (left arch) which is just barely healing now. I've since gone back to my orthotics and to my Brooks and running isn't as painful.
Have fun Joanna! You'll never be sorry if you do what they say, do the work, and stick with it (that's the key). Their whole philosophy os based on knowing that athetes CAN train without pain and injury. That we CAN, if strong and smart, come back year after year, and continue to progress in many ways. It's all good--and you will be too.
I was thinking a lot about all this today, my experience, and what I have learned....
Now, after being through this process and seeing SO clearly what I now know is true, I can't BELIEVE we, as athletes, go year in and year out training for events like marathons and Ironman without knowing one hoot about how our bodies are moving. OUR BODIES--the center of all power--the make or break part of ALL we want to accomplish. I can say this with impugnity, b/c for most of my life I was "that guy" trying to cram fitness on top of dysfunction year after year.
Would we ride with a wobble in our bike wheel? Or with a loose head set? Do you not make sure every single mechanical thing on your bike is working 100% optimally? Yet we run with compensation and dysfunction like dropping hips, unstable low backs, and dead glutes because we just don't know there is a better way. We try to ignore or power through injury. It's nuts, and it doesn't have to be that way. WE, our physical bodies are the most important piece of equipment we have, and yet we know so little about how we can rid ourselves of limiters--or maximize the strengths we have. There is help out there, and each of us owe it to ourselves to find it and do that work too.
Just a musing from someone who has been there and back WAY too many times. :-)
@Linda, very happy for your gains. From reading this thread a few times I almost think this should be retitled "How I rebuilt my body from scratch". Seems like you have improved not only your run, but your swim and bike also. Also, you say they gave you no coaching on the run. So it looks to me your issue was your weak core and the boys from PAP helped you with that.
Having said that, from their website:
A Key Element in Our Advanced Gait Analysis System
The top link is to this website: www.functionalmovement.com/
They have links where you can look for certified trainers in any area of the country. For people who are not local to PAP, this could be a good start to finding someone. Because maybe all most of us need is some work on our functional strength.
One item that I have recently added to my personal efforts in this regard is a Balance Board (Vew-Do brand - model: Flow )....it is amazing how unbalanced I am and how much work on the balance board helps to center my body and improve my running form....highly recommend it to everyone.
@Joanna--reach out anytime with questions or support. Do what they say and you will never be sorry. The rebuild was my "Ironman" last year. It took every bit as much work, trust, commitment and dedication. The results regarding my running--not to mention my overall health, strength, and well being--blow my mind every day. The more I do the work, the more committed I become as I just become able to handle more--and recover so much faster. Now the training can really WORK, and I can feel it. I've lived it, I get it, and the result is everything they say and more. SO happy for you.
I'm in and out of EN since I'm SO crazy with work, it's sometimes best to get me at lindapatch@gmail.com. Keep the faith and go as far as you can with the work. Can never be too strong or stable!
My evaluation is scheduled for 27 January! I can't wait to see what they think of my running form (or lack thereof...)
@John--you don't look so bad at all! A few months of their work will make a world of difference for you.
I've been with them for a year now, and have made a huge study of movement, and how it relates to performance. I'm sold. I've studied TONS, including everything I can get my eyes on by Gray Cooke. Plus, the PAP blog now makes it easier to get a constant stream.
Anywho....my "expert" (lol!) layman's analysis what sees you "leaking speed" left and right. Every hip drop and twist of that low back robs speed and forward propulsion--not to mention how it sets you up for injury over time. When you get stable and strong, it will all work FOR you. I can also tell you it translates to the pool (greatly reduced wiggling), and in transfer of power straight down on the bike. You'll be very pleased with the results.
So keep at it, don't lose faith, and soldier on. You'll be good to go in no time!
I was with them yesterday along with my wife, the put her in run jail for at least a month. After years of PT people telling her its her hamstrings and she needs to stretch them, within about 2 minutes they figured out it was her hips flexors where to tight pulling on her hamstrings. She is pumped now to get started on getting it RIGHT!
They also have helped me in the past and when I was with them yesterday they helped me work on some form for deadlifting which will help my run in the future. Once they showed me the proper way and how I should feel I felt so much more powerfull.
It's from the same guy from PAP, just thinking that the prescription for everyone has been "weak core, inner muscles, hips, etc" that this may solve those problems. Saves you a bundle too!