Hey Ann- Thanks, but my starting point was so bad, there was no where to go but up. My wife is working very hard, but is progressing just a bit slower than I am. She had some serious issues with her neck/shoulder/back that she has been working through for the last yr or so and had gone to many specialists with no good results (Chiro/Ortho/PT/Massage/Accupuncture). The PAP guys have given her a bunch of neck/lat/shoulder exercises to do in addition to the core and glute stuff. She has seen more improvement in her pain in the last 2 months than she had over the course of the previous yr. She has recently started her return to running protocol as well.
I have been working very hard in my return to running protocol to focus on getting my cadence up since I have a had short discrete running efforts with walking breaks in between so it is easy to focus on that. I used to run at a cadence of ~78 and now am running at 90-92 for similar paces (did that for several 1 mile intervals on Saturday). I am still getting moderately winded when I run, but that is normal and I actually think it's because I am over-emphasizing my cadence. I actually changed the readouts on my Garmin to only read (Distance/Time/Lap Cadence/Cadence) and I'm just letting the pace fall out wherever it falls. When doing this and keeping my cadence up above 90, my "lap paces" flash up on the screen every mile and they're right around 8:00 per mile which is about where My normal selected pace would have naturally been before going to PAP. My hope is that all the work I'm doing eventually translates into somewhat faster running, but more importantly, I want to be more efficient and I think I'm well on my way.
I do notice my posture is much better not only while running, but also while walking, or sitting on my stability ball all day at work or sitting on the train, etc. I used to have to think about my posture 300+ times a day, then 100+ times a day, and now it's almost normal to have good posture. I will keep you posted as I expect to actually be running "real runs" within the next couple of weeks or so.
@Joanna and @John, your stories are inspiring. Glad to hear you are starting back to running too, Joanna. I'm not even sure I know what glutes firing is going to feel like. It's pretty bad! But I am hopeful. Glad to hear your wife is doing well with the PAP guys too, John. What a relief that must be after trying so many thing with no results!
I had to laugh about the checking posture 300 times a day. That's where I am now. I can't believe how short my attention span must be for it to fall away so quickly! Glad to hear it becomes habit eventually.
I am not too concerned about faster running - my run was just fine before (in terms of what I needed to do - not in terms of form obviously!) so I don't need a big breakthrough (now, the bike on the other hand . . . ), but I would certainly like efficiency and robustness.
I look forward to hearing about your "real runs" as you get to them! Keep us posted.
I guess I'm not paying enough attention to the forums, because I had totally missed this entire thread. Really interesting stuff! I'm almost afraid to ask, but for those of you who are well into OS by now, any impact on VDOT yet? Just curious.
Also, apologies for being so tardy on replying to some PMs I've received. Still catching up after not one, but two eye surgeries in two weeks--one quite major. Long story short, I went for a pair of glasses, and they discovered a very rare syndrome in my R eye. Now it's a race to save the vision in it. Looks good right now, but it will be fingers crossed for the rest of my life. Seems I also have congential issues that also chose to crop up now (natch), that put me in surgery again for the L eye. Thankfully, it was far less invasive than the other. This all came out of nowhere.
Anywho, it's where I've been. Recovery from the 1st surgery is long and carefully planned. I've got two more weeks to go before I get back to normal. HAPPY to continue the discussion here at any time! Just wanted people to know I haven't been in hiding, and yes, the old bod is still reapin' the benefits of all this.
Friend me up on FB too if you care to. I seem to be there more frequently.
Thank you for your original post and for this dialogue. It would be very interested to look at the results from a standpoint of racing. Pre PAP race results running segment vs. Post PAP race results running segment / training. Any data out there as of yet either inside the Haus or outside the Haus?
Excellent job, excellent dialogue amongst the members....I think this thread by itself has made the investment into EN totally payoff!
It's weird, but I'm a bit dissapointed even though I had a lifetime PR for a 5k test today. My last 5k test was on 11/2/11 and I did it in 21:40. I took off a few months for my run jail, then I eased my way back into it after that. Today I did a 21:07 for a new best vDot of 47 according to the data tool. I haven't run fast in a long time and my pacing was way off. My mile splits were: 6:34, 6:53, 7:01. I had an avg HR of 169 and a max HR of 175. I really thought I could break 21:00 today. It is so hard to do those tests completely solo. I may have benefitted from a race or at least a pacer. I am feeling much better with my running in general. I notice it when I run hills which I used to totally hate and I have actually been embracing recently. My first race is in 2.5 weeks and it is a race I did last yr, so that ~9 miles after a Swim and Bike should be telling. I'll report back after that.
@John what is there to be disappointed in? Lifetime PR sounds good to me. Maybe your expectations were too high? I'll run with you if you need a pacer. I Oh and I don't think your pacing was that bad. Recent study said that for your best time you should got out too hard and hold on for dear life.
Well, I said I'd report back after my first race and I actually did 2 races this past weekend so here it is. Instead of re-inventing the wheel, I figured I'd just paste in here for all of you the email that I sent to "Coach Al and Doc" up at PAP. It is very long and it's kind of "race-reporty" but here it is anyways:
Coach/Doc--
I wanted to give you an update on my progress. I will start by saying I feel like a runner now. It's weird, because I still don't look like a runner, but more of a linebacker... See attached for pics of me coming into the finish line of my first race from this past Saturday. And I will apologize in advance for such a long email, but I thought you guys were geeky enough to maybe actually read and appreciate the detail...
It was the first race of the year for me, and I'm not gonna lie, it has been much harder to do my exercises the last several weeks as my training has picked up a bit, BUT I have been feeling really good running. Anyways, my plan for the race was to swim the 0.8mi swim how I always swim (I had been in the pool a grand total of 4 times since last September). Then I wanted to push the 40 mile bike, but not too terrible hard. I wanted to ride at 80-85% but actually was only able to do ~76% on the flat/windy course. I hoped to be a couple mins faster on the bike, then see what I could do on the 9.2mi run (8.8mi official). I ran at an 8:51 pace last yr but basically started fast and blew up in the later miles last yr. After the this race last yr, I collapsed into a heap on the ground where I spent the next 15 minutes recovering as people brought me drinks and food.
So this year I got out of the water 5 mins slower than last yr. I was not stressed because the swim seemed really short last yr and it seemed a bit long this yr and I know my pace was about the same. I flew through T1 (17th fastest T1 OA) and got on my bike. I rode pretty hard, but didn't kill myself (224W NP, 1.02VI, 21.7mph) http://connect.garmin.com/activity/175603685 . My HR dropped steadily throughout my bike, but I was actually a bit slower with lower power on the 2nd loop. My glutes got a bit sore during the ride, which is weird because that never happens to me in training, but I also never ride on a flat course. Basically, I seek out hills when training all the time. It was not as bad as last yr, where in T2 I actually had to stop for about 30 seconds to get feeling back in my glutes. Anyways, I flew through T2 this yr and started my run. A quick stop in the porta-potty only cost me about 20-30 seconds right after I left T2. My run felt pretty good but instead of fading, I stayed very consistent. Here's my file, but I basically nailed my run goal: http://connect.garmin.com/activity/175086812 My splits were (8:41, 8:22, 8:22, 8:25, 8:36, 8:36, 8:30, 8:49, 8:38, 8:34, 7:37). And unlike collapsing last yr when I finished, This yr I immediately walked/jogged all the way through Transition (over a half mile) to get my camera out of my bag so I could head back to the finish line to capture my friends finishes.
Below are my overall year-over-year results from NJ Devilman when compared to last yr. You'll see that I crushed my transitions this yr... Other things to note, even though my swim time was ~5 mins slower this yr, I moved up to 25.5% overall swim place from 27.9% swim place last yr (I know the course was several hundred yds longer this yr than last yr). Other than Transitions, my biggest improvement came on the run (14.6% improvement vs the field), and that was after a little bump in my bike place. Even though I was a bit disappointed with my bike split, I think my bike training has been working as I was 36th overall on the bike and the 4th fastest bike in my AG. I have improved a ton on the run, but am excited that I still have a lot of room to improve versus the field on the run (and I will continue to improve here with a solid foundation) Sorry for all the numbers below, but I'm a complete data/numbers geek.
2012 NJD Half-Lite 50 Swim T1 Bike T2 Run Total
Split
0:24:43 0:01:12 1:53:26 0:01:28 1:18:32 3:39:23
Time Improvement vs '11
(0:04:51) 0:01:18 0:03:10 0:00:48 0:03:06 0:03:31
Garmin Distance
41.0 mi
9.22 mi
Pace
21.7 8:31
Place OA
70 17 36 67 123 66
# OA
274 274 274 274 274 274
OA %
25.5% 6.2% 13.1% 24.5% 44.9% 24.1%
OA Rank Improvement vs '11 2.3% 45.2% 6.6% 44.3% 14.6% 12.3%
Place in AG
7
# in AG
26
AG %
26.9%
AG Rank Improvement vs '11 21.6%
2011 NJD Half-Lite 50 Swim T1 Bike T2 Run Total
Split
0:19:52 0:02:30 1:56:36 0:02:16 1:21:38 3:42:54
Garmin Distance
41.0 mi
9.22 mi
Pace
21.2mph 8:51
Place OA
82 151 58 202 175 107
# OA
294 294 294 294 294 294
OA %
27.9% 51.4% 19.7% 68.7% 59.5% 36.4%
Place in AG
17
# in AG
35
AG %
48.6%
Here's the kicker, a couple of months ago, a friend of mine asked me if I would run a half marathon for a fundraiser for her charity. It is a great cause, so I said okay. My Half-Lite 50 Triathlon was on Saturday (5/5) and the Longbranch Half Mary started at 6:50AM on Sunday (5/6). It took me a week to recover after the NJ Devilman race last yr and I had approximately 18 hours to recover this yr. Anyways, I got up at 4:45AM on Sunday and drove the hour to Longbranch. My goal was to just take it nice and easy and suffer through the distance. I was aiming for ~1:55 (since my fastest ever 13.1 was 1:48:30 and that was a fully rested all-out run test with a fast guy pacer). This was my 2nd ever proper running race (I did a local 5k last yr). I stood in the coral half way between the 1:50 and 2:00 pacers where I found a couple of other runners from the same "Autism Family Times" charity I was running for. They were doing the first half of a relay and were also aming for a mid-8's pace so we decided to run together. Long story longer, I was sore for the first mile or so then settled into a very comfortable pace and we chatted a bit and just casually ran. I was going faster than my plan, but it just felt right. We stayed about 50 feet behind the 1:50 pacer until I lost my friends at the halfway point because they were doing the relay. I thought, what the heck, I'm alone now, I may as well catch the pacer. When I caught her, I thought may as well try to drop her. I kept a very steady and constant pace and it really didn't feel like anything until after about 11.5 miles when it started to get a bit hard. I finished strong and actually sprinted the last couple hundred yards down the boardwalk to the finish. 1:47:00 for 8:05 pace! Woot Woot! My friends that I ran the first half with missed my finish because they expected me at like 1:52-1:55 and they actually felt bad because they thought they made me go to hard the first half and figured I blew up... Little did they know, I had already finished before they got to the line! Here's my Garmin file: http://connect.garmin.com/activity/175398592 I think it is the most consistent splits I have ever run before. I felt really good the whole time. My average run cadence was 85 which is MUCH higher than last yr's mid-to-high 70's, but still too low. After about an hour, I really had to focus to keep my cadence up. I'll keep working on that... Here were my splits:
Lap Pace
<form>> 1 </form>
8:12
2 8:03
3 8:05
4 8:07
5 8:02
6 8:02
7 7:55
8 8:01
9 8:07
10 8:11
11 8:10
12 8:13
13 8:04
13.25 7:31
Anyways, I still have a long way to go... But I figured you guys might want to hear that I already feel like one of
Hi all! I am back again. Took two months of "holiday" from EN while I worked on my core/hip/glute exercises. No running. Have just started back to the return to run program. Things are going well, but progressing slowly. I have been doing the PAP program now for 4 months. I know I am much stronger than when I started. I am swimming like a rock star! That core stability seems to work magic in the pool too! I have only been back on the bike for about 2 weeks now. I had pain while riding too so shut both run and ride down in mid-late February. Swimming was bad too - could not do flip turns, or even really push off the wall. But I swam any way because I had to do SOMETHING or go stark raving mad!! Kurt and Al have been super, super helpful and supportive this whole time. I have had multiple Skype consultations with them to check on my progress, how my form in the exercises is, to talk about my concerns (I'm not getting better as fast as I would like, etc., etc.). I can't say enough about how good these guys are.
So now is crunch time. Am I going to do IM Canada at the end of August or not?? Swim, no problem. Bike, I think I can be there. The run is the big question. I am going to go see what the coaches have to say. Just thought I would check in and report how things were going here.
Hope everybody else is doing well and making good progress!
Ann-- You are going to be fine for IM Canada. Their return to running protocol is very conservative. It's probably the one thing of theirs that I cheated on a little bit. After the first couple of weeks I sped mine up a bit. I took those first several weeks back as a chance to work on my cadence. I also took pace off my Garmin and just went by "feel". I replaced pace with Cadence and Lap Cadence and tried very hard to keep it high. You will realize that your new glutes and core will allow you to run more upright and more efficient. It should be "easier". For me, it wasn't immediately "faster", but is certainly "easier". You still have plenty of time to build your speed AND volume in your lead-up to IM Canada. You'll be out of your return to running protocol before the most crucial 11-12 weeks of the plan. I'm still working hard on my cadence, but it's getting there.
Good luck and don't forget to report back in several weeks after you really start running.
Hey guys!! I've enjoyed reading this thread and everybody's enthusiasm to improve. It's a very intriguing system, and I cannot wait to see some before/after speed/endurance data to show off your new engines... At the expense of revealing my ignorance, I had some questions purely from an intellectual perspective:
@ Ann: I am a little confused (and a lot dense!)... Why specifically are you unable to flip turn and push off the wall in your swim? I wasn't able to make the connection. I would have assumed your core stability improvement would have aided- not impeded- that action. Swimming like a rock star but not being able to flip/turn seemed at least on the surface as contradictory. I'm sure I'm just missing something!
And I'm not a client of PAP, so I don't know... am I correct that your implication is that their initial prescription is to halt all run/bike/swim completely to focus on just functional strength, possibly for months? And that the two training methods (cardio vs. functional strength work) should not be integrated or performed in parallel? I could somewhat understand pausing running to address a dangerous gait imbalance, but not cycling- and especially not swimming- to build a stronger core would be a theory that I have never heard espoused before. Especially in a forum on a site dedicated to run/bike/swim, and anti-functional strength work.
And most importantly, are you implying that you would actually consider a DNS at Canada (an IM you already paid for) in three months because your new strength program today would interfere or threaten your ability to compete? Can you not do both, improve core and still complete the race? I'm super-frugal, so unless I was just completely falling apart- dragging a foot like Frankenstein, drooling, hearing voices, etc.- if my coach told me to drop out of an IM because my running form wasn't perfect, I would tell him to bite my ankle, so that really surprised me!
And lastly for all the great participants in this thread, forgive me for being so clueless, but by page 6 and in a thread traversing multiple years, I guess based on the other threads being promoted in the emails, I was expecting at least a hint of what is actually going on as far as your PAP training. My goal in reading an EN thread (and joining EN) is to take away some concrete ideas and strategies to try (like Robin's excellent "Swimming Expectations" thread, for instance), but the purpose of this one would seem to be "visit PAP." Which is fine, if that's correct, but I was worried I missed something crucial instead... Are folks withholding specific prescribed workouts/movements/drills purposely, or are they speaking of them ("work your core", "glute", "stabilizers", etc.) in generalities for some other completely logical reason that just flew over my head?
Again, all of this is new and interesting to me, and without all the details, the comments seemed very covert. Which is a daily reality for people like me that miss a lot. I'm just trying to fill in gaps so I can improve, too. Good stuff, though- thanks for sharing your successes and propagating an extremely enlightening thread!
@Bart- that was a very thoughtful and well laid out question and I'll take a crack at attempting to answer it, but hopefully others will chime in as well.
For me, 'run jail' was just for running. It was the OS for me though so I wasn't swimming anyways. I took it as an opportunity to absolutely crush my bike. At the beginning it was also core/glute stuff 2x a day, then eventually turned to me doing core stuff instead of my run workouts.
Their philosophy is to 'rebuild' your running from the inside out. So instead of telling you to think about this or that while running or simply to put you into a certain position or pose while running, they went you to over strengthen your glutes and core stabilizers. Once your body has stinger glutes and stabilizers, it should naturally use these muscles when running and you don't have to think about it, it just happens. The reason for run jail is that it they want your body to unlearn or 'forget' the wrong way of running using primarily your quads and a floppy pelvis. Once your muscle memory for this 'bad' form is sufficiently 'forgotten' and you start in with your new found muscles, your body can hopefully imprint this new/better form that you won't have to 'think' about at mile 18 of the IM marathon when you are tired. It will simply be your default running form when you are fresh or when you get tired. Imagine trying to learn a new swimming technique (like Total Imersion) while you were still swimming traditional freestyle stroke 4x a week. That would not allow you to imprint the new technique or body positions nearly as quickly.
The reason everyone says 'go to PAP' is because they spend many hours (I think 4 in my case) bending, pulling, analyzing and educating you. They find your own individual weaknesses in flexibility and strength and every person is unique. As a bike fitting analogy, I could tell you that I am 6'-1'' and my really good bike fitter after spending 3 hours with me put my seat post at a height of 'x' and gave me a drop on my bars of 'y'. If you are also 6'-1" and even if you road the same kind of bike as me, I could tell you in this forum to simply put your seat post at a height of 'x' and give your bars a drop of 'y'. This might actually get you pretty close. But I think you would have a better bike fit if I simply said, ''my bike fitter is amazing, go see my bike fitter'', especially if you already knew your current fit wasn't right.
My wife's prognosis was similar to mine in many ways, but her specific focus was very different. She had many deficiencies in her back, neck, and lats so she had a lot of exercises that focussed on strengthening these. I got none of these in my plan. I had stretches for my external rotators and was told to stop sitting a certain way at work all day that made my internal rotators way to lax. My wife was told to absolutely stop stretching her hammys because they were way to lax and they actually wanted them to tighten up a bit. This really is not a one size fits all thing because we all have our own individual weaknesses that need to be addressed for good solid functional movement and have our bodies work as one big efficient chain of interconnected things all working together with minimum leakage.
Many of the exercises are exactly the same for everyone they see. Most people these days have much weaker glutes than we should because many of sit on a chair 10 hours a day or more. I think they have a free e-book on their website that lays out their philosophies a lot better than I can and I think even gives you many of the exercises. To re-use my lame bike fitter analogy, that would kind of be like setting your seat height to 0.889 x your inseam measurement. That will certainly get you darn close to the right height, but not quite the same as actually going to see the fitter.
I'm out of time for now, but later I'll either edit this post or add another one to try to describe some of the common exercises they give to most people. People for glute strengthening and core stability. Hope this helps...
@Michael--yes, you can walk until you are blue in the face. LOL! No problems there. My dog was never so happy.
@Bart--John covered it. I will just add a few things. One thing clear--NOT EVERYONE ENDS UP NOT RUNNING. Not running is not the point. It's not an automatic, although I bet a majority benefit from it for a time.Plenty of people I know have gone there and continued training and racing, while learning how to work in the stability and strength at the same time.
Like John says, I do what I do for ME, based on my Rx. It's not a canned program or a one-size-fits all. I'm sure that's why people aren't specific. Doesn't make sense to be since what I do may not be right for you.
This is a paradigm shift, no doubt about it. It's not for everyone. Well, it is, but you know what I mean. What might help you understand the paradim shift is their ebook. I think it does a good job of laying out the basics of what they do, why, and how it helps. You can download it here. I think you'll enjoy it.
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My own update. Coming back from eye surgery has been hard. (Loooong story, but I had an 8 week layoff after having a tube shunt installed in my R eye. Literally, trying to save the vision in that eye due to a rare syndrome caused by, or all things, the chicken pox virus.) What has been very heartening, though, it how fast the strength and stability has come back and progressed.
I'm really at the place now where I've moved well beyond the restoration and foundation phases to working on building more and more stability and strength. Here's what's new.
My new holy grail is the full plank with reach. For Bart below is a You Tube. There is NO moving the torso or pelvic girdle one inch. No moving, no dropping the hip, etc. I can do 2 each side before I have to peel back to a lower level. Don't do these unless you can do them perfectly. I've had to really work up to this. (My DH can do 12-15 each side. Jerk.)
The boys told me that if you move and drop doing that exercise, it's always one place where they will see instability on the run. Of course it is. It's clear as day now. That's where we leak all that power and speed. Getting that lumbar spine more rock solid--as it is supposed to be rather than being a wiggling jelly fish--is going to pay off big time.
A lot more of my work is moving to one-legged or a three-point stance. Hip work is now done from a side plank position with a band (yow ow). All bridging is on one leg. There's also some kettlebell work. That's fun.
Am I too cool for school or what?! LOL!
I'm looking forward to their new website when all of this will be laid out in progressions with check-ins and timetables built in. I plan to keep going as far as they'll take me. Remember, it's been 18 months for me. None of this happens over night. :-) Good stuff. I'm feeling great.
@Linda, holy crap woman you rock!! I am not where you are yet - full plank with reach? Not even close. Side plank with band? Holy smoke!
@Bart, to answer some of your questions. My initial injury that sent me over to the PAP guys was pain in my left glute. Any motion that brought my knee up toward my chest hurt - thus the flip turns hurting. And biking bugging me. And of course running. I was put in run jail to let that glute calm down and heal. I continued to bike for a while longer just not in the aero position, but even that turned out to be hurting it too. So in order NOT to go completely insane I got back in the pool and just open turned - not great, but at least not as bad as flip turning. I can now flip turn again and that's when I can see the improvement in swim speed brought about by my new stronger, more stable core.
The reason I am questioning IM Canada is not because I might not look good out there in terms of run form. And not because I am too busy doing core and glute and hip work. ha! No, it is because right now I am only doing "runs" that are max. 35 minutes in length and only about 20 - 25 minutes of that is actual running. There is a long way to get from 35 minutes to 4 hours in the next 11 weeks. THAT'S what I am concerned about.
And like John and Linda have said, everybody gets different stuff to work on based on what they need. My exercises were about core stability, hip strengthening (lots of band work), and glute strengthening. But I also had some stretching too because I WAS super tight in my hip flexors and calves.
John, Linda, and Ann pretty much covered it. Just one thing to add. Al Lyman (Coach at PAP) sells a DVD called Runner Core. If you're interested in the generic 'prescription' for the masses, that's probably it. Something like $40 for a comprehensive, non-personalized program. I haven't seen it, but would assume there is a heavy dose of Bridges, Planks, Clams, Lateral band walks, various postural exercises to counteract hunched-over posture, and otherwise. Overall, this program would probably be of benefit to most any triathlete.
Now, the question would be, what's the difference between this and the personalized treatment at PAP? I can't speak for others, but I can share my experience. I have a fairly unique chronic injury (torn labrum in my left hip, not going to be having the surgery). They were able to thoughtfully consider all factors and make several recommendations specifically addressing this concern. They identified some significant issues with the strength of my feet, and prescribed specific exercises. I also had orthotics made which were very unique to my hip condition and feet troubles (I was never, ever a believer in orthotics until they showed me what they showed me on their gait analysis). They also showed me specifically how to do several of these exercises properly, such as the side plank, which I had previously been trying to do but not doing correctly (and have since made a ton of progress on).
I haven't been working with them long enough to give a before and after Vdot, but I can say that I took 4 weeks off running, doing strength exercises every day, and riding my bike (they encouraged me to continue riding and swimming). I'm in the getting-back-to running phase right now, and am feeling ahead of schedule on their plan. I've never felt better while running, both tall and strong. For kicks, on the treadmill last night, I spent 1 minute of my run at 6:00, and one minute at 5:30. Aside from being slightly winded, 5:30's felt friggin' awesome. After another couple of weeks of return to running, I can't wait to take this new form out for a test drive 5k!
I submitted my video. Looking at the side view of running seems my head moves alot up and down. Looking from behnid it appears my hips drop. We'll have to see what they say. I will post results.
@Linda & others whohave gone thru program: Got my online evaluation back: I'm running with hip flexors and quads only (very little glutes and hammies)...no wonder I can't run well after a triathlon bike! Questions: 1. How long were you in Level 1? 2. How do you know when you go to Level 2? 2a. How long were you in Level 2? 3. Just need reassurance...so when I progress through the system, when you return to running, do you then start running with posterior muscles? How do know if you are using these muscles? Do you feel different?
@Michael-- 1) ~4 weeks 2) I was getting anxious and had "mastered" all of the Level I exercises 2a) ~4 weeks or so 3) If you strengthen your glutes and core, your body will use them. You still need to focus on your form and standing tall and keeping your head high. I used my return to running protocol (which I shortened to ~4 weeks) to really focus on my run cadence because I certainly needed focus there as well.
Yes, I absolutely feel different! I'm a bit faster, but feel a lot better. It has given me much more confidence to push the effort on my bike and I have been recovering much better this yr. It truly is amazing, but there is no free lunch. I attacked this like it was my job in the OS...
10 days or so into run jail. Doing more reps and sets than prescribed. Kurt said that need to be in Level 1 3-4 weeks to ingrain movements. I can side plank 1:05 (2:30 is goal) and half plank 2:30. Can now do single leg sqats (without holding onto anything) 3 x 17 reps. I feel I could do alot more work, maybe this is more about neurological retraining that really getting stronger at this point. I will ask him at end of week 3 if he thinks Im ready.
Michael, definitely more about re-training the mind-body connection than about training muscles to fatigue. Don't worry, there's plenty of that coming! (Except the side plank, that creates a TON of fatigue for me, still!)
@ Michael-- keep doing your exercises after your "runs"... I started very slowly like they insisted, but actually shortened that to about 4 weeks (shhhhh, don't tell). Also, I used that 4 weeks as an opportunity to focus on getting my cadence up. what better time will you ever have to focus on that?
So onto to Level 2. Starting running again. Felt OK. Interesting is that some of the circuits you only do 1-2x/wk. For those of you who have done this, do you actually improve, with so infrequent of the circuit? Any other thoughts or suggestions for Level 2?
I decided to commit to becoming a better runner and get a gait analysis. I'll have to fly it for that, and based on all your comments, I feel that it's worth it. Considering how many people were referred there via EN and this thread, do we have a promotion or a discount code? Should I call in and mention EN or Linda or? Thank you! Diana
I'm sure if you call them and mention EN, Linda, myself, and the others on this thread and then ask them for a discounted Gait Analysis, they will give it to you... They are great guys...
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I have been working very hard in my return to running protocol to focus on getting my cadence up since I have a had short discrete running efforts with walking breaks in between so it is easy to focus on that. I used to run at a cadence of ~78 and now am running at 90-92 for similar paces (did that for several 1 mile intervals on Saturday). I am still getting moderately winded when I run, but that is normal and I actually think it's because I am over-emphasizing my cadence. I actually changed the readouts on my Garmin to only read (Distance/Time/Lap Cadence/Cadence) and I'm just letting the pace fall out wherever it falls. When doing this and keeping my cadence up above 90, my "lap paces" flash up on the screen every mile and they're right around 8:00 per mile which is about where My normal selected pace would have naturally been before going to PAP. My hope is that all the work I'm doing eventually translates into somewhat faster running, but more importantly, I want to be more efficient and I think I'm well on my way.
I do notice my posture is much better not only while running, but also while walking, or sitting on my stability ball all day at work or sitting on the train, etc. I used to have to think about my posture 300+ times a day, then 100+ times a day, and now it's almost normal to have good posture. I will keep you posted as I expect to actually be running "real runs" within the next couple of weeks or so.
I had to laugh about the checking posture 300 times a day. That's where I am now. I can't believe how short my attention span must be for it to fall away so quickly! Glad to hear it becomes habit eventually.
I am not too concerned about faster running - my run was just fine before (in terms of what I needed to do - not in terms of form obviously!) so I don't need a big breakthrough (now, the bike on the other hand . . . ), but I would certainly like efficiency and robustness.
I look forward to hearing about your "real runs" as you get to them! Keep us posted.
---Ann.
Just saw this on FB. 15% off packages through marathon monday, 4/16 if anyone is interested. http://pursuitathleticperformance.com/
Also, apologies for being so tardy on replying to some PMs I've received. Still catching up after not one, but two eye surgeries in two weeks--one quite major. Long story short, I went for a pair of glasses, and they discovered a very rare syndrome in my R eye. Now it's a race to save the vision in it. Looks good right now, but it will be fingers crossed for the rest of my life. Seems I also have congential issues that also chose to crop up now (natch), that put me in surgery again for the L eye. Thankfully, it was far less invasive than the other. This all came out of nowhere.
Anywho, it's where I've been. Recovery from the 1st surgery is long and carefully planned. I've got two more weeks to go before I get back to normal. HAPPY to continue the discussion here at any time! Just wanted people to know I haven't been in hiding, and yes, the old bod is still reapin' the benefits of all this.
Friend me up on FB too if you care to. I seem to be there more frequently.
Happy trails!
Linda,
Thank you for your original post and for this dialogue. It would be very interested to look at the results from a standpoint of racing. Pre PAP race results running segment vs. Post PAP race results running segment / training. Any data out there as of yet either inside the Haus or outside the Haus?
Excellent job, excellent dialogue amongst the members....I think this thread by itself has made the investment into EN totally payoff!
@ John - impressive.
Oh and I don't think your pacing was that bad. Recent study said that for your best time you should got out too hard and hold on for dear life.
Well, I said I'd report back after my first race and I actually did 2 races this past weekend so here it is. Instead of re-inventing the wheel, I figured I'd just paste in here for all of you the email that I sent to "Coach Al and Doc" up at PAP. It is very long and it's kind of "race-reporty" but here it is anyways:
2012 NJD Half-Lite 50
Swim
T1
Bike
T2
Run
Total
Split
0:24:43
0:01:12
1:53:26
0:01:28
1:18:32
3:39:23
(0:04:51)
0:01:18
0:03:10
0:00:48
0:03:06
0:03:31
41.0 mi
9.22 mi
21.7
8:31
70
17
36
67
123
66
274
274
274
274
274
274
25.5%
6.2%
13.1%
24.5%
44.9%
24.1%
OA Rank Improvement vs '11
2.3%
45.2%
6.6%
44.3%
14.6%
12.3%
7
26
26.9%
AG Rank Improvement vs '11
21.6%
2011 NJD Half-Lite 50
Swim
T1
Bike
T2
Run
Total
0:19:52
0:02:30
1:56:36
0:02:16
1:21:38
3:42:54
41.0 mi
9.22 mi
21.2mph
8:51
82
151
58
202
175
107
294
294
294
294
294
294
27.9%
51.4%
19.7%
68.7%
59.5%
36.4%
17
35
48.6%
Lap
Pace
<form>>
1
</form>
8:12
2
8:03
3
8:05
4
8:07
5
8:02
6
8:02
7
7:55
8
8:01
9
8:07
10
8:11
11
8:10
12
8:13
13
8:04
13.25
7:31
So now is crunch time. Am I going to do IM Canada at the end of August or not?? Swim, no problem. Bike, I think I can be there. The run is the big question. I am going to go see what the coaches have to say. Just thought I would check in and report how things were going here.
Hope everybody else is doing well and making good progress!
---Ann.
Good luck and don't forget to report back in several weeks after you really start running.
@ Ann: I am a little confused (and a lot dense!)... Why specifically are you unable to flip turn and push off the wall in your swim? I wasn't able to make the connection. I would have assumed your core stability improvement would have aided- not impeded- that action. Swimming like a rock star but not being able to flip/turn seemed at least on the surface as contradictory. I'm sure I'm just missing something!
And I'm not a client of PAP, so I don't know... am I correct that your implication is that their initial prescription is to halt all run/bike/swim completely to focus on just functional strength, possibly for months? And that the two training methods (cardio vs. functional strength work) should not be integrated or performed in parallel? I could somewhat understand pausing running to address a dangerous gait imbalance, but not cycling- and especially not swimming- to build a stronger core would be a theory that I have never heard espoused before. Especially in a forum on a site dedicated to run/bike/swim, and anti-functional strength work.
And most importantly, are you implying that you would actually consider a DNS at Canada (an IM you already paid for) in three months because your new strength program today would interfere or threaten your ability to compete? Can you not do both, improve core and still complete the race? I'm super-frugal, so unless I was just completely falling apart- dragging a foot like Frankenstein, drooling, hearing voices, etc.- if my coach told me to drop out of an IM because my running form wasn't perfect, I would tell him to bite my ankle, so that really surprised me!
And lastly for all the great participants in this thread, forgive me for being so clueless, but by page 6 and in a thread traversing multiple years, I guess based on the other threads being promoted in the emails, I was expecting at least a hint of what is actually going on as far as your PAP training. My goal in reading an EN thread (and joining EN) is to take away some concrete ideas and strategies to try (like Robin's excellent "Swimming Expectations" thread, for instance), but the purpose of this one would seem to be "visit PAP." Which is fine, if that's correct, but I was worried I missed something crucial instead... Are folks withholding specific prescribed workouts/movements/drills purposely, or are they speaking of them ("work your core", "glute", "stabilizers", etc.) in generalities for some other completely logical reason that just flew over my head?
Again, all of this is new and interesting to me, and without all the details, the comments seemed very covert. Which is a daily reality for people like me that miss a lot. I'm just trying to fill in gaps so I can improve, too. Good stuff, though- thanks for sharing your successes and propagating an extremely enlightening thread!
For me, 'run jail' was just for running. It was the OS for me though so I wasn't swimming anyways. I took it as an opportunity to absolutely crush my bike. At the beginning it was also core/glute stuff 2x a day, then eventually turned to me doing core stuff instead of my run workouts.
Their philosophy is to 'rebuild' your running from the inside out. So instead of telling you to think about this or that while running or simply to put you into a certain position or pose while running, they went you to over strengthen your glutes and core stabilizers. Once your body has stinger glutes and stabilizers, it should naturally use these muscles when running and you don't have to think about it, it just happens. The reason for run jail is that it they want your body to unlearn or 'forget' the wrong way of running using primarily your quads and a floppy pelvis. Once your muscle memory for this 'bad' form is sufficiently 'forgotten' and you start in with your new found muscles, your body can hopefully imprint this new/better form that you won't have to 'think' about at mile 18 of the IM marathon when you are tired. It will simply be your default running form when you are fresh or when you get tired. Imagine trying to learn a new swimming technique (like Total Imersion) while you were still swimming traditional freestyle stroke 4x a week. That would not allow you to imprint the new technique or body positions nearly as quickly.
The reason everyone says 'go to PAP' is because they spend many hours (I think 4 in my case) bending, pulling, analyzing and educating you. They find your own individual weaknesses in flexibility and strength and every person is unique. As a bike fitting analogy, I could tell you that I am 6'-1'' and my really good bike fitter after spending 3 hours with me put my seat post at a height of 'x' and gave me a drop on my bars of 'y'. If you are also 6'-1" and even if you road the same kind of bike as me, I could tell you in this forum to simply put your seat post at a height of 'x' and give your bars a drop of 'y'. This might actually get you pretty close. But I think you would have a better bike fit if I simply said, ''my bike fitter is amazing, go see my bike fitter'', especially if you already knew your current fit wasn't right.
My wife's prognosis was similar to mine in many ways, but her specific focus was very different. She had many deficiencies in her back, neck, and lats so she had a lot of exercises that focussed on strengthening these. I got none of these in my plan. I had stretches for my external rotators and was told to stop sitting a certain way at work all day that made my internal rotators way to lax. My wife was told to absolutely stop stretching her hammys because they were way to lax and they actually wanted them to tighten up a bit. This really is not a one size fits all thing because we all have our own individual weaknesses that need to be addressed for good solid functional movement and have our bodies work as one big efficient chain of interconnected things all working together with minimum leakage.
Many of the exercises are exactly the same for everyone they see. Most people these days have much weaker glutes than we should because many of sit on a chair 10 hours a day or more. I think they have a free e-book on their website that lays out their philosophies a lot better than I can and I think even gives you many of the exercises. To re-use my lame bike fitter analogy, that would kind of be like setting your seat height to 0.889 x your inseam measurement. That will certainly get you darn close to the right height, but not quite the same as actually going to see the fitter.
I'm out of time for now, but later I'll either edit this post or add another one to try to describe some of the common exercises they give to most people. People for glute strengthening and core stability. Hope this helps...
Been away and now so behind!
@Michael--yes, you can walk until you are blue in the face. LOL! No problems there. My dog was never so happy.
@Bart--John covered it. I will just add a few things. One thing clear--NOT EVERYONE ENDS UP NOT RUNNING. Not running is not the point. It's not an automatic, although I bet a majority benefit from it for a time.Plenty of people I know have gone there and continued training and racing, while learning how to work in the stability and strength at the same time.
Like John says, I do what I do for ME, based on my Rx. It's not a canned program or a one-size-fits all. I'm sure that's why people aren't specific. Doesn't make sense to be since what I do may not be right for you.
This is a paradigm shift, no doubt about it. It's not for everyone. Well, it is, but you know what I mean. What might help you understand the paradim shift is their ebook. I think it does a good job of laying out the basics of what they do, why, and how it helps. You can download it here. I think you'll enjoy it.
###
My own update. Coming back from eye surgery has been hard. (Loooong story, but I had an 8 week layoff after having a tube shunt installed in my R eye. Literally, trying to save the vision in that eye due to a rare syndrome caused by, or all things, the chicken pox virus.) What has been very heartening, though, it how fast the strength and stability has come back and progressed.
I'm really at the place now where I've moved well beyond the restoration and foundation phases to working on building more and more stability and strength. Here's what's new.
below is a You Tube. There is NO moving the torso or pelvic girdle one inch. No moving, no dropping the hip, etc. I can do 2 each side before I have to peel back to a lower level. Don't do these unless you can do them perfectly. I've had to really work up to this. (My DH can do 12-15 each side. Jerk.)
My new holy grail is the full plank with reach. For Bart
The boys told me that if you move and drop doing that exercise, it's always one place where they will see instability on the run. Of course it is. It's clear as day now. That's where we leak all that power and speed. Getting that lumbar spine more rock solid--as it is supposed to be rather than being a wiggling jelly fish--is going to pay off big time.
A lot more of my work is moving to one-legged or a three-point stance. Hip work is now done from a side plank position with a band (yow ow). All bridging is on one leg. There's also some kettlebell work. That's fun.
Am I too cool for school or what?! LOL!
I'm looking forward to their new website when all of this will be laid out in progressions with check-ins and timetables built in. I plan to keep going as far as they'll take me. Remember, it's been 18 months for me. None of this happens over night. :-) Good stuff. I'm feeling great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=SWLxomYfZ7E&NR=1
@Bart, to answer some of your questions. My initial injury that sent me over to the PAP guys was pain in my left glute. Any motion that brought my knee up toward my chest hurt - thus the flip turns hurting. And biking bugging me. And of course running. I was put in run jail to let that glute calm down and heal. I continued to bike for a while longer just not in the aero position, but even that turned out to be hurting it too. So in order NOT to go completely insane I got back in the pool and just open turned - not great, but at least not as bad as flip turning. I can now flip turn again and that's when I can see the improvement in swim speed brought about by my new stronger, more stable core.
The reason I am questioning IM Canada is not because I might not look good out there in terms of run form. And not because I am too busy doing core and glute and hip work. ha! No, it is because right now I am only doing "runs" that are max. 35 minutes in length and only about 20 - 25 minutes of that is actual running. There is a long way to get from 35 minutes to 4 hours in the next 11 weeks. THAT'S what I am concerned about.
And like John and Linda have said, everybody gets different stuff to work on based on what they need. My exercises were about core stability, hip strengthening (lots of band work), and glute strengthening. But I also had some stretching too because I WAS super tight in my hip flexors and calves.
Hope this helps to clarify! And welcome to EN!
---Ann.
John, Linda, and Ann pretty much covered it. Just one thing to add. Al Lyman (Coach at PAP) sells a DVD called Runner Core. If you're interested in the generic 'prescription' for the masses, that's probably it. Something like $40 for a comprehensive, non-personalized program. I haven't seen it, but would assume there is a heavy dose of Bridges, Planks, Clams, Lateral band walks, various postural exercises to counteract hunched-over posture, and otherwise. Overall, this program would probably be of benefit to most any triathlete.
Now, the question would be, what's the difference between this and the personalized treatment at PAP? I can't speak for others, but I can share my experience. I have a fairly unique chronic injury (torn labrum in my left hip, not going to be having the surgery). They were able to thoughtfully consider all factors and make several recommendations specifically addressing this concern. They identified some significant issues with the strength of my feet, and prescribed specific exercises. I also had orthotics made which were very unique to my hip condition and feet troubles (I was never, ever a believer in orthotics until they showed me what they showed me on their gait analysis). They also showed me specifically how to do several of these exercises properly, such as the side plank, which I had previously been trying to do but not doing correctly (and have since made a ton of progress on).
I haven't been working with them long enough to give a before and after Vdot, but I can say that I took 4 weeks off running, doing strength exercises every day, and riding my bike (they encouraged me to continue riding and swimming). I'm in the getting-back-to running phase right now, and am feeling ahead of schedule on their plan. I've never felt better while running, both tall and strong. For kicks, on the treadmill last night, I spent 1 minute of my run at 6:00, and one minute at 5:30. Aside from being slightly winded, 5:30's felt friggin' awesome. After another couple of weeks of return to running, I can't wait to take this new form out for a test drive 5k!
Hope that's helpful.
Mike
I submitted my video. Looking at the side view of running seems my head moves alot up and down. Looking from behnid it appears my hips drop. We'll have to see what they say. I will post results.
Got my online evaluation back: I'm running with hip flexors and quads only (very little glutes and hammies)...no wonder I can't run well after a triathlon bike!
Questions:
1. How long were you in Level 1?
2. How do you know when you go to Level 2?
2a. How long were you in Level 2?
3. Just need reassurance...so when I progress through the system, when you return to running, do you then start running with posterior muscles? How do know if you are using these muscles? Do you feel different?
1) ~4 weeks
2) I was getting anxious and had "mastered" all of the Level I exercises
2a) ~4 weeks or so
3) If you strengthen your glutes and core, your body will use them. You still need to focus on your form and standing tall and keeping your head high. I used my return to running protocol (which I shortened to ~4 weeks) to really focus on my run cadence because I certainly needed focus there as well.
Yes, I absolutely feel different! I'm a bit faster, but feel a lot better. It has given me much more confidence to push the effort on my bike and I have been recovering much better this yr. It truly is amazing, but there is no free lunch. I attacked this like it was my job in the OS...
great Michael
I scheduled my gait analysis and am going up on August 1st!
@ Michael-- keep doing your exercises after your "runs"... I started very slowly like they insisted, but actually shortened that to about 4 weeks (shhhhh, don't tell). Also, I used that 4 weeks as an opportunity to focus on getting my cadence up. what better time will you ever have to focus on that?
So onto to Level 2. Starting running again. Felt OK. Interesting is that some of the circuits you only do 1-2x/wk. For those of you who have done this, do you actually improve, with so infrequent of the circuit? Any other thoughts or suggestions for Level 2?
I decided to commit to becoming a better runner and get a gait analysis. I'll have to fly it for that, and based on all your comments, I feel that it's worth it.
Considering how many people were referred there via EN and this thread, do we have a promotion or a discount code? Should I call in and mention EN or Linda or?
Thank you!
Diana