Posted By David McLaughlin on 13 Apr 2012 11:54 AM
I just got out of the pool and did try this. I'm a 87 92 golf swimmer the last 6 weeks I've been in the pool and that is in meters. Today I got an 82 - 85 for my 4 set of swim golf. As in anything new it will take some to get use to but the improvement was evident. Pulling together descending 200s it was a chore to hold that form but I got to hand it to you this may be my missing link.
Time will tell, Thx David....
@David. AWESOME! That is a great improvement for just one swim session. LMK if you have further questions as you work with it.
@ Bob- It feels very tight and constricting in the chest. (Therefore increasing the need to feel like I have to slow down cuz I can't tak ea deep breath!) I even tried going up a size but then it was baggy in the legs. Maybe I'll wear it around the house to get used to it.
You realize that's all mental, right? A properly fitted wetsuit isn't constricting in that regard. I hear many wetsuit newbies say the same thing. It's all between the ears.
@Kim- I had a similar feeling with a wetsuit. I'm a competent swimmer (1:11 at IMLou) and am VERY relaxed and comfortable in the water. I had that constrictive and almost hyperventilating feeling in my first handful of races (using an Orca 3.8 full sleeve wetsuit). I bought a cheap sleeveless Xterra Vortex Sleeveless for $139 and Immediately felt comfortable in it in the water. My Vortex is arguably tighter than my Orca, but because it is sleeveless, it didn't restrict my oversized neck when I swam. Xterra has a very liberal return policy and thereof an EN discount code I think. It might be worth giving a sleeveless a try.
@Robin- WOW! Thanks for the awesome post! I do a nice easy 2 beat kick already only for stabilization, not propulsion, but reading your post reinforced this for me. Wow.
Robin - has anyone ever had the problem with starting to kick way more frantically when they lengthen their stroke (slow it down)? I feel like now that I'm "gliding" longer, I'm also kicking way faster to somehow compensate. That may not make any sense - it's just the feeling I'm getting. Sorry for thread-jacking Kim's question, but when I see "swim coach" in someone's post, I tend to get a little excited. ;-)
Yes, this issue is really common, especially when you're starting to work on increasing glide. If you are doing a catch-up, or almost-catch-up drill and working on your glide, then you will need to kick more because your stroke will have a "dead spot" in it where your hands catch up to each other. In order to keep constant propulsion, you have to kick more to eliminate loss of speed. In the long run, you will want to transition to a stroke timing that eliminates this pause.
The trick with extending your glide is to make sure that you start your next stroke at the right time to eliminate any dead spot in your timing. It sounds to me as if you are probably over-gliding just a tad, hesitating a bit too long with the gliding arm out there and creating a space in your stroke where your arms are not providing propulsion. Thus your feet are taking up the task of adding more propulsion. This will tire you out and negate any benefit of the extra glide.
What I like to have my swimmers do is to start with the catch-up drill, where both arms are out in front, you take a stroke with one arm and don't start the next stroke until that arm catches up completely and both arms are out in front. You will notice in doing this drill that your stroke count will go way down, but you will have to kick a lot more because there is a definite dead spot in the stroke.
Then, when catch-up feels comfortable, you can start backing off the stroke timing into an "almost catch-up" timing. I like to think of the arm/hand that is in recovery (over the water with bent elbow) coming into the water and replacing the gliding arm which has now started to stroke. Dang, this is hard to explain, I need to make some videos!! If you play with your stroke timing, you should find a point in which you achieve a good balance between optimal glide and no dead spots in your stroke timing. If you hold that gliding arm out a bit too long, you get a dead spot, if you let it go too early, you lose some of your glide and end up taking more strokes. The optimal stroke rate will be different for every person. A 6'5" guy with long arms can get away with 12 - 13 strokes per length. A 5'5" woman might take 17 - 18.
@ Bob - I learn something everytime Robin posts on a swim question. I nominate her for WSSM - Wicked Smart Swimming Member. Now I have to go to the pool and see if I'm kicking right. No wetsuit swims for me this year so I'm motivated to get it right!
So I did my swim today (I didn't have my toys so couldn't do pull sets) and for kicks (pun intended!) I TRIED to kick the right way. Not happening. So weird. Right arm and right leg and left arm & left leg are inseparable! I gave up on that for now and focused on the catch. Seemed much more comfortable than the other day so seems like progress. Other than my arms & leg, my stroke is great.
@Kim. Don't feel bad. After reading the post by Robin, I was trying to focus on my kick during swim sets.today It was messing me up. Left arm and right leg seemed to work well together. Right arm and left leg not sure about, sometime yes and sometime not so sure.
OK - so I did the local sprint triathlon this morning where I'm proud to say work-works: 1st out of 45 finishers in the M55-59 (27th out of about 1000), and was 1st in the swim, bike and run. So my swim isn't bad. But while I was warming up in the water for my wave, I checked to see if I was kicking right. EPIC FAIL. I tried to put it out of my mind in the race, but even then I was thinking how I'm working so much harder than I have to. I've been to a half dozen swim clinics - several by top pro's and one with a 2 time world champion - no one has ever commented on my kick! That probably explains why my progress has been so incremental despite trying so hard to catch up with the collegiate swimmers. I've finished my recovery nap and am headed to the pool for remedial swim lessons!
Kim- X2 what John said. Have you considered that maybe you have the wrong wetsuit? A properly fitting wetsuit does not need to feel that tight and constricting. If you can't breathe, that's a problem. I tortured myself for two seasons with a wetsuit like that. I had people look at me in my suit to verify that I had the correct size, and standing up walking around in it, it felt fine. Once I got horizontal in the water and started moving, it was impossible to get a deep breath, and it was very tight around the neck. It was completely horrible. I could suck it up and get it done, but I hated it. I upgraded to a nicer suit, a Blue Seventy Helix, and it made a huge difference. The top of the suit was way more flexible, the collar was softer, night and day difference on how it felt in the water. Perhaps you need to try on different brands, instead of just a larger size. Or try a two piece. Not all of this has to be a sufferfest...
+1 Sarah I also bought a Blue Sevety Helix right before I did Clearwater in 2010 and found it to be a huge step up in comfort and flexibility. I can actually move my extremities and not get overly fatigued now!
@ Robin , Since it was an effort to kick the way you suggested, as in anything new it will take time to adapt too, I was wondering if you find it easier for those who can bilateral breath to do that kick.
Posted By David McLaughlin on 15 Apr 2012 07:44 AM
@ Robin , Since it was an effort to kick the way you suggested, as in anything new it will take time to adapt too, I was wondering if you find it easier for those who can bilateral breath to do that kick.
No, I haven't really noticed a correlation with the breathing. In my experience, it seems like whatever rhythm people start kicking with when they start swimming is just what gets ingrained. Some people naturally gravitate towards a correct rhythm, but some have to work later to change an incorrect rhythm. Unlike running, which humans have been doing ever since there were humans (and children seem to do correctly from the get-go), swimming is an activity that we don't have any natural inclination toward, and thus whatever patterns we learn along the way are what we get stuck with. Most childhood swim instructors and coaches do not pay any attention to kicking rhythm so you get what you get.
I actually don't bilaterally breathe myself (heresy, I know) due to a childhood injury to my left shoulder/neck.
@Paul, nice work on the race, very impressive finish!
I wish I could say I was surprised that all the swim clinics and coaches have not noticed or commented on the kicking, but I'm not. It seems to be the most overlooked, yet important facet of swimming on the planet. I have to say though, as a swim coach, it is a difficult and time-consuming thing to correct, it's so much easier to fix the fiddly details of a person's stroke in a top-down fashion than it is to work on the foundation. Like if you had a weekend to fix up your house, you might slap a coat of new paint on it, but you probably wouldn't dig up the basement and re-lay the concrete.
Still, I think you are on the right track. If you are only seeing incremental results from years of work, then finding the time to fix this timing issue could very well be the key that unlocks your future forward progress. Let me know if you have any questions as you go!
@Kim, I totally understand. This is a VERY ingrained thing, the rhythm. It's like our bodies are hardwired to lock into a rhythm and it becomes difficult to change it. Still, I have worked with many people who have changed their kick rhythm over time, so in the long run if it's something you want to concentrate on, I have every confidence that you'll be able to unlock it and that it will make a dramatic difference in your stroke. Congrats on your progress with the catch!
Also, a general +1 on the advice to think about a better fitting wetsuit. It makes a huge difference. I have the Blue 70 Helix, and I love the flexibility and comfort it gives me around neck/shoulders. I have swum as far as a 10k in it with no binding or chafing problems.
@ Robin: re: you don't bilateral breathe. I am glad to hear that it is due to pathological reason. I crashed at Ironman Canada where I did some significant shoulder damage and after 3 months of trying my darndest to bilateral breathe and drinking half-pool of water I am resolving to 2 stroke breathing as I have a 1/2iron in 5 weeks and need to get on with it.
So... I was totally disappointed today when I did my swim because even though I thought I had a perfect (enough) 2-beat kick, I realized I was kicking on the same side I was pulling. It was so frustrating to try to do it the "right" way that I literally stopped 15 mins into my swim and sent an email to a local swim coach about a lesson. Last yr, I took underwater video of myself and realized that I was taking a very wide and large almost scissor-like kick. I worked very hard to take a much smaller 2-beat style kick. It's not perfect, but I felt it was much better than it used to be. I also originally took Total Immersion lessons a couple of yrs ago and basically swim with that style. Anyways, when I got to work today, I looked up the video that I watched last yr when I was trying to teach myself the 2-beat kick. It turns out, the dude is super smooth and actually kicks on the same side as he pulls with. I am in no way as smooth as this guy, but that's basically what I try to emmulate when I'm swimming. If you fast-forward the video until about ~0:50 you can see the underwater view. Is TI swimming different than traditional swimming in regards to kick timing?
@ Robin, As I posted above RE my swim golf score last week , which was a hands down improvement. Today was my drill day and I incorporated the new kick and with just a few days using that I have lower my score today to an all time low of 79. Ahhh wow smooth I will most likely hang in the low 80s but that is a lot better than 90 any day. Since I'm gliding so well it is an added effort to keep my arm out there for the glide but it is training muscle memory for something new, and that is a meter pool too.
Kudos to you on narrowing down the wide scissor kick, that's a big drag producer. While I don't agree 100% with the TI method, I think most of their stuff is pretty darned solid. From watching that video, it looks like he has a perfectly timed 2-beat kick, with the left downbeat driving the right hand into the glide and vice versa. He has a much stronger Left kick-Right glide combo, and a smaller right kick that goes with the left arm.
Here's some stills that show it. This is his smaller right kick, driving his left gliding arm (right arm is already stroking):
Here's his bigger left kick, driving the right gliding arm:
@David.Sweeet! Can't beat a PR in the swim golf. Sounds like lots of good work going on there. Glad to hear it is clicking for you.
@Tim, that's fine on the breathing, you can relax about the every-2-stroke thing. Most of the Pros do it. You'll see very few true bilateral breathers among the faster swimmers. At best, they will use a 3-2-2-2- 3-2-2-2 rhythm. Doing a true 3-stroke breathing pattern just results in so much less oxygen, it's not worth it. Of course, this only works out well when you can breathe while keeping the head relatively low in the water. A big head-high breath with accompanying sinking feet will wear a swimmer out if it's every 2 strokes, and ditto if the breathing causes a zig-zag in the water. But barring those complications, you shouldn't worry about having to breathe every two. Nail down your unilateral breathing with good technique, and if/when you can reintroduce the injured side, so much the better.
Thanks Robin - I started re-learning how to swim Saturday afternoon - after my race. I've been to the pool 3 days in a row now and it's getting better everyday. I can finally just swim with the correct kick timing (2 beat) but I have to concentrate hard to stay there -- any distraction and I revert back. But I do believe this is going to result in a significant advance for me. I'm going to swim 5-6 x week between now and St Croix and see if I can take this into my race.
I'm probably the last person who should give advice on this forum, especially given the incredibly insightful responses from Robin. However, I have taken some TI coaching and struggled with the 2-beat kick, but the thing that really clicked for me was the realization, as shown in the video that John posted, that a left kick, actually lifts your left hip, clearing space for the pull part of the stroke with your left arm (as you glide with your right).
I hope this is helpful and doesn't set back everyone's progress, thanks to Robin, back to square one.
The TI video and Robin's subsequent analysis are reassuring to me. When I went to play around with this yesterday at the pool, I was very confused about the timing,. What felt right to me (I have a true two beat kick) was to have the down thrust of each leg come simultaneous with the main pulling action of the arm on the same side. The slow motion underwater video shows this clearly. I was worried that "opposite leg down" concept applied to the pulling phase of the arm - it applies to *gliding* phase, no?
This is still helpful to me, as I have been ignoring my kick for 50+ years, but have finally decided to practice without the pull bouy and actually swim as I will be swimming in the non-wetsuit race(s) I expect to do in the future (e.g., Cozumel, Hawaii). It is a real mental effort to remember to keep my kick going to maintain good horizontal posture after the first 10 minutes of a swim session.
@Robin - Thanks so much for the feedback! I'm going to try to get the timing of the glide-pull more on track so I'm not kicking like crazy. I think I'm at a 6-beat kick right now, which is probably a bit much. I'll give this 2-beat thing a whirl.....although I don't anticipate looking too great trying it the first time. I can't wait for the day that this stuff "clicks". I'm pretty sure I'll be putting my kids into swimming lessons as early as possible. Mission Impossible: Fixing an Adult Swimmer's Stroke!
Did anyone else feel hypnotized watching the TI swimmer? I think I was about 1:40 into the video when it occurred to me that I was kinda bobbing my head in time with his strokes.
UPDATE: Did some kick drills with my tri swim group last week, then tried some stuff in the pool on my own. The 6 beat kick works best for me since my previous kick was more like that vs 2 beat. Once I realized how to count it out (1-2-3 for each arm stroke) it clicked. Still requires some thought and the kick on "1" is always harder in order to reinforce that I'm kicking the correct leg with the opposite arm but hopefully it will come together! The 2 beat kick just feels super awkward to me...
That's great Kim! I'm glad it's clicking in for you. It's fine to have a harder "downbeat" in your 6-beat kick and many swimmers do that. If you ever want to transition to a 2-beat kick, just gradually make your other kicks lighter and lighter. That way you have a range of kicking.
Comments
@David. AWESOME! That is a great improvement for just one swim session. LMK if you have further questions as you work with it.
You realize that's all mental, right? A properly fitted wetsuit isn't constricting in that regard. I hear many wetsuit newbies say the same thing. It's all between the ears.
@Robin- WOW! Thanks for the awesome post! I do a nice easy 2 beat kick already only for stabilization, not propulsion, but reading your post reinforced this for me. Wow.
http://www.swimsmooth.com/kick_adv.html
Yes, this issue is really common, especially when you're starting to work on increasing glide. If you are doing a catch-up, or almost-catch-up drill and working on your glide, then you will need to kick more because your stroke will have a "dead spot" in it where your hands catch up to each other. In order to keep constant propulsion, you have to kick more to eliminate loss of speed. In the long run, you will want to transition to a stroke timing that eliminates this pause.
The trick with extending your glide is to make sure that you start your next stroke at the right time to eliminate any dead spot in your timing. It sounds to me as if you are probably over-gliding just a tad, hesitating a bit too long with the gliding arm out there and creating a space in your stroke where your arms are not providing propulsion. Thus your feet are taking up the task of adding more propulsion. This will tire you out and negate any benefit of the extra glide.
What I like to have my swimmers do is to start with the catch-up drill, where both arms are out in front, you take a stroke with one arm and don't start the next stroke until that arm catches up completely and both arms are out in front. You will notice in doing this drill that your stroke count will go way down, but you will have to kick a lot more because there is a definite dead spot in the stroke.
Then, when catch-up feels comfortable, you can start backing off the stroke timing into an "almost catch-up" timing. I like to think of the arm/hand that is in recovery (over the water with bent elbow) coming into the water and replacing the gliding arm which has now started to stroke. Dang, this is hard to explain, I need to make some videos!! If you play with your stroke timing, you should find a point in which you achieve a good balance between optimal glide and no dead spots in your stroke timing. If you hold that gliding arm out a bit too long, you get a dead spot, if you let it go too early, you lose some of your glide and end up taking more strokes. The optimal stroke rate will be different for every person. A 6'5" guy with long arms can get away with 12 - 13 strokes per length. A 5'5" woman might take 17 - 18.
Robin,
Thanks so much for all of your help with these swimming questions!
@Bob- No doubt it's mental re: the wetsuit.
Kim- X2 what John said. Have you considered that maybe you have the wrong wetsuit? A properly fitting wetsuit does not need to feel that tight and constricting. If you can't breathe, that's a problem. I tortured myself for two seasons with a wetsuit like that. I had people look at me in my suit to verify that I had the correct size, and standing up walking around in it, it felt fine. Once I got horizontal in the water and started moving, it was impossible to get a deep breath, and it was very tight around the neck. It was completely horrible. I could suck it up and get it done, but I hated it. I upgraded to a nicer suit, a Blue Seventy Helix, and it made a huge difference. The top of the suit was way more flexible, the collar was softer, night and day difference on how it felt in the water. Perhaps you need to try on different brands, instead of just a larger size. Or try a two piece. Not all of this has to be a sufferfest...
+1 Sarah I also bought a Blue Sevety Helix right before I did Clearwater in 2010 and found it to be a huge step up in comfort and flexibility. I can actually move my extremities and not get overly fatigued now!
No, I haven't really noticed a correlation with the breathing. In my experience, it seems like whatever rhythm people start kicking with when they start swimming is just what gets ingrained. Some people naturally gravitate towards a correct rhythm, but some have to work later to change an incorrect rhythm. Unlike running, which humans have been doing ever since there were humans (and children seem to do correctly from the get-go), swimming is an activity that we don't have any natural inclination toward, and thus whatever patterns we learn along the way are what we get stuck with. Most childhood swim instructors and coaches do not pay any attention to kicking rhythm so you get what you get.
I actually don't bilaterally breathe myself (heresy, I know) due to a childhood injury to my left shoulder/neck.
@Paul, nice work on the race, very impressive finish!
I wish I could say I was surprised that all the swim clinics and coaches have not noticed or commented on the kicking, but I'm not. It seems to be the most overlooked, yet important facet of swimming on the planet. I have to say though, as a swim coach, it is a difficult and time-consuming thing to correct, it's so much easier to fix the fiddly details of a person's stroke in a top-down fashion than it is to work on the foundation. Like if you had a weekend to fix up your house, you might slap a coat of new paint on it, but you probably wouldn't dig up the basement and re-lay the concrete.
Still, I think you are on the right track. If you are only seeing incremental results from years of work, then finding the time to fix this timing issue could very well be the key that unlocks your future forward progress. Let me know if you have any questions as you go!
@Kim, I totally understand. This is a VERY ingrained thing, the rhythm. It's like our bodies are hardwired to lock into a rhythm and it becomes difficult to change it. Still, I have worked with many people who have changed their kick rhythm over time, so in the long run if it's something you want to concentrate on, I have every confidence that you'll be able to unlock it and that it will make a dramatic difference in your stroke. Congrats on your progress with the catch!
Also, a general +1 on the advice to think about a better fitting wetsuit. It makes a huge difference. I have the Blue 70 Helix, and I love the flexibility and comfort it gives me around neck/shoulders. I have swum as far as a 10k in it with no binding or chafing problems.
@Coach R, my pleasure!
@ Robin: re: you don't bilateral breathe. I am glad to hear that it is due to pathological reason. I crashed at Ironman Canada where I did some significant shoulder damage and after 3 months of trying my darndest to bilateral breathe and drinking half-pool of water I am resolving to 2 stroke breathing as I have a 1/2iron in 5 weeks and need to get on with it.
@John,
Kudos to you on narrowing down the wide scissor kick, that's a big drag producer. While I don't agree 100% with the TI method, I think most of their stuff is pretty darned solid. From watching that video, it looks like he has a perfectly timed 2-beat kick, with the left downbeat driving the right hand into the glide and vice versa. He has a much stronger Left kick-Right glide combo, and a smaller right kick that goes with the left arm.
Here's some stills that show it. This is his smaller right kick, driving his left gliding arm (right arm is already stroking):
Here's his bigger left kick, driving the right gliding arm:
@David.Sweeet! Can't beat a PR in the swim golf. Sounds like lots of good work going on there. Glad to hear it is clicking for you.
@Tim, that's fine on the breathing, you can relax about the every-2-stroke thing. Most of the Pros do it. You'll see very few true bilateral breathers among the faster swimmers. At best, they will use a 3-2-2-2- 3-2-2-2 rhythm. Doing a true 3-stroke breathing pattern just results in so much less oxygen, it's not worth it. Of course, this only works out well when you can breathe while keeping the head relatively low in the water. A big head-high breath with accompanying sinking feet will wear a swimmer out if it's every 2 strokes, and ditto if the breathing causes a zig-zag in the water. But barring those complications, you shouldn't worry about having to breathe every two. Nail down your unilateral breathing with good technique, and if/when you can reintroduce the injured side, so much the better.
However, I have taken some TI coaching and struggled with the 2-beat kick, but the thing that really clicked for me was the realization, as shown in the video that John posted, that a left kick, actually lifts your left hip, clearing space for the pull part of the stroke with your left arm (as you glide with your right).
I hope this is helpful and doesn't set back everyone's progress, thanks to Robin, back to square one.
The TI video and Robin's subsequent analysis are reassuring to me. When I went to play around with this yesterday at the pool, I was very confused about the timing,. What felt right to me (I have a true two beat kick) was to have the down thrust of each leg come simultaneous with the main pulling action of the arm on the same side. The slow motion underwater video shows this clearly. I was worried that "opposite leg down" concept applied to the pulling phase of the arm - it applies to *gliding* phase, no?
This is still helpful to me, as I have been ignoring my kick for 50+ years, but have finally decided to practice without the pull bouy and actually swim as I will be swimming in the non-wetsuit race(s) I expect to do in the future (e.g., Cozumel, Hawaii). It is a real mental effort to remember to keep my kick going to maintain good horizontal posture after the first 10 minutes of a swim session.
@Robin - Thanks so much for the feedback! I'm going to try to get the timing of the glide-pull more on track so I'm not kicking like crazy. I think I'm at a 6-beat kick right now, which is probably a bit much. I'll give this 2-beat thing a whirl.....although I don't anticipate looking too great trying it the first time. I can't wait for the day that this stuff "clicks". I'm pretty sure I'll be putting my kids into swimming lessons as early as possible. Mission Impossible: Fixing an Adult Swimmer's Stroke!
Did anyone else feel hypnotized watching the TI swimmer? I think I was about 1:40 into the video when it occurred to me that I was kinda bobbing my head in time with his strokes.
In case you havent seen this video posted elsewhere (billed as the smoothest freestyle swim stroke by swimsmooth):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HhNlysFDs
It is a really beautiful freestyle! Definitely mesmerizing.
That's great Kim! I'm glad it's clicking in for you. It's fine to have a harder "downbeat" in your 6-beat kick and many swimmers do that. If you ever want to transition to a 2-beat kick, just gradually make your other kicks lighter and lighter. That way you have a range of kicking.