Last year at Lake Placid I used concentrated infinate on the bike and run, chased with water. I supplemented that with a gel every hour on the bike chased with water, and a package of powerbar chew things at the bike special needs and in T2. I felt great all day, until about 5 miles into the run, when severe stomach cramping in the area described by Penny above set it. Forced me to a walk for a while. Eventually recovered enough to run the rest of the marathon, but slower than I wanted - an on water only! Anything other than water caused the cramping to increase.
Not sure what happened - perhaps my on-the-fly dilution factor was not right (but it should have been, at least on paper, and worked training). Or maybe it's something about infinate. I remember many race reports last year from Placid where EN'ers reported very similar issues!
I'm working on an alternate fueling method now.
@Jim: That bike-to-run time really is where problems seem to happen. Honestly, the mix of Infinit with gels and chews could have been what caused the problem. I'm a huge fan of keeping things as simple as possible with one to two fueling options. Sounds like your GI tract went into revolt and, perhaps didn't have enough time to clear from the problem around mile 5.
Was it hot up there on race day? How did the temperature compare to what you had trained in?
Ok....jumping in here a bit to play the Devil's Advocate .
A few notes:
I want everyone to understand that this is a potentially dangerous time of year to be having conversations like this. I can see / sense a lot of members thinking lots of "me too!" stuff...which is fine, but understand that Patrick methodically tried this stuff out, built up his capacity to take in calories on the bike via a process. He didn't just -- BANG -- start doing this as I sense others are thinking of doing with comments that they want to try this stuff out right away.
Questions for the smart, nutrition, sports phys folks in the house, of which I am not one:
I'm SWAGGING that Patrick did about 4000-4200kj worth of work, based on his FTP, bike split, etc. Call it 4k, so 800kj per hour, which, as I understand, is roughly equally to the calories his body burned on the bike.
The calories come from three sources: (1) Intramuscle / liver glycogen -- limited to about 2k calories; (2) Carbs ingested on the bike -- we are in control of this; (3) Fat -- basically unlimited amount, for racing purposes.
These fat stores are burned in the "fire" of carbohydrates such that (SWAG, again) Patrick is burning about 200 calories of carbs per hour and these carbs in turn burn the additional 600 calories of fat for our total of 800 cals/hr burned by P in total on the bike.
Furthermore, as an endurance athlete, P's body has become very fuel efficient, which I would define as figuring out that "hey, this clown is going to make me SBR every day and I better figure out how to burn more fat so I can keep up!" So maybe P's carb / fat distribution is like 150cal / 650cal...again, making up numbers but hopefully you're following me.
So by taking in more calories on the bike, I get that Patrick is shifting away from burning glycogen towards burning the carbs he's eating which in turn burn the fat. I get that. What I don't get is why take in over 700 calories per HOUR on the bike? In my opinion:
It's not needed -- see fuel efficient, fat burning metabolism, IMO just need to supplement glycogen burning a bit but not replace the entire ~800cals per hour burned with about 750cals/hr ingested, in efffect ignoring the contribution of fat and, by my Marine Math, basically creating a calorie credit that builds and builds across the day.
Is risky -- stomach shutting down, etc. Now, I understand that P was very smart about how he took in calories across the day -- nearly all liquid, stuff he has rehearsed, etc, vs the ham sammiches, burritos, marshmellow peeps and other crazy stuff I've seen people do -- but it just seems risky to me.
In short, 300 cal/hr, sure. 400 cal/hr, maybe. 700 cal/hr...do not try this at home, NOT without a very well planned process to bring up your ability (your Chow FTP, if you will ) to take in a lot of calories...
...but then I go back to my "it's not needed" and "it's risky" points above.
And, again, hopefully one of the smart folks can edumacate us all, we understand that this conversation is not closed, and realize this is an incredibly valuable opportunity for us to all learn...but hopefully we can all step back and get that learnin' on before anyone makes dramatic changes to their race plans!
@Penny - it was not especially hot. Mid 70's or so? But a blazing sun that made it seem hotter than it was.
@Rich - I hear you. In my case I have about 2.5 months until my next HIM, and my sights are really set in Lake Placid again in 2013, so I have a little time to experiment. Maybe the solution is not drastic - further simplifiction as Penny suggests, and maybe upping the calories a little to avoid a bonk on the run? I don't know. I really do like the simplicity of concientrated infinate. Hard to believe eating can be so complicated!
Wow! Looks like a lot of complicated plans folks are considering. As a newbie still trying to figure out my nutrition I think I'll stick to the tried and true recommendations in the wiki and other places for this year - mostly. I k ow for me I can't do sports drinks bc it messes with my stomach. So I do Gu and water with salt tabs. After Kansas I plan to try Infinit in training just for ease over Gu but stick with the same cal/hr (250).
That said it'll be interesting to see ya'lls stories as you do experiment.
so if I read this correctly, you started the increased calorie program while biking aobut 8 weeks out. Do you see this as an IM prep plan only or have you adopted these ideas into all future training?
What kinds of tests did they have you do - just the sweat test? Do they have a canned nutrtion plan or do they ask - what do you eat and then modify? Is it athlete food or family food or both?
I've got a year to think about nutrition. Not sure I'm broken, but maybe there are some things I'm leaving on the table.
@Tom, I will do this for all my training from now on -- as in my calories go up/down within my training, not at ice cream binges.
They had me do a sweat test and knew my weight and body fat. The regular 1:1 nutrition option meant I have someone on call who gets me menus / plans, etc. The Race Fuel plan was just a program that I got an implemented after the sweat test. It was athlete food, as in eat 4oz salmon, a sweet potatoe and 1 cup veggies for dinner...but nothing that others couldn't eat too!
One SRQ (silly rookie question) here coach P, Assuming you loaded PERFORM at every station, do the perform bottles fit the "regular" bottle cages on the bike? Or one needs to re-fuel own bottles?
@Penny - hoping you're still checking out this thread. I have a question about mixing solids with sports drinks. I use either CarboPro or Perform (not at same time, just sometimes use one OR the other at different races), and I also use PowerBar Energy Chews. In your opinion, does eating those while drinking CarboPro or Perform contribute to cramping in the upper rib area?? I don't concentrate my liquid, just mix it as usual. I did a HIM a few weeks ago and had that type of cramping at mile 2 of the run. My biggest problem is that I only have ONE fluid resevoir on my bike. So if I'm going to switch to solids at a certain point in the race, should I only use the Perform for the first 2/3 and then refill my resevoir with water and switch to solids?? Thanks for any input.... Kori
So, at Patrick's 800 kcal/hour output, he burns 480kcal of carb, 320kcal of fat per hour.
You don't need to replace ALL of the carb (you do have some liver and intramuscular glycogen to pull from), but you also spend the first hour face down in the water not taking calories, so let's say P needed somewhere between 400-450 kcal of carb/hour to fuel his performance. Looks to me like he was taking in about 500 per hour, so slightly high, but within the margin of error (especially since his advice didn't come from a SWAG in a forum!)
If you aren't going as relatively hard as he was or don't put out the massive power he does, you would need to adjust down. I have a really, really hard time imagining someone needing more than that.
Kori - Penny is in transit to speak at CDA. However, to answer your question, yes that did contribute to your GI issue. You are not providing you gut with enough water to transport the nutrition. You don't have to make a cold turkey switch, you just want to make sure that when you take down the solids that you are chasing it with the appropriate amount of water and that you are not exceeding your body's limit for the number of carbs it can handle an hour. I tend not to mix them, because I can't keep track of liquid cals and solid cals and water...
@ Bo, of course I would defer to Dr Penny but I use these gels with 250 mls of water. I have also been testing this http://www.highfive.co.uk/isogel_INT.php because it is designed to be taken without water — which allows you to separate the hydration task from the fueling task — they seem to work for me. YMMV
@Penny - hoping you're still checking out this thread. I have a question about mixing solids with sports drinks. I use either CarboPro or Perform (not at same time, just sometimes use one OR the other at different races), and I also use PowerBar Energy Chews. In your opinion, does eating those while drinking CarboPro or Perform contribute to cramping in the upper rib area?? I don't concentrate my liquid, just mix it as usual.
I did a HIM a few weeks ago and had that type of cramping at mile 2 of the run. My biggest problem is that I only have ONE fluid resevoir on my bike. So if I'm going to switch to solids at a certain point in the race, should I only use the Perform for the first 2/3 and then refill my resevoir with water and switch to solids??
Thanks for any input....
Kori
@Kori: When I work with athletes on their race nutrition plans, I like to only have two sources of fuel involved. Otherwise it just gets too complicated. If you are doing gels or chews, you need to take them down with plenty of water and allow plenty of time between them and the CarboPro/Perform. With each intake of fuel you are putting carbohydrate molecules in your stomach and intestines. Get to many of them in there and your body says, "WOAH! I gotta dilute all this stuff she put in me to be able to digest it. But, this crazy lady is exercising and taking away all to blood I need to dilute it." Hence, your stomach starts hurting which causes you to slow down. Then,it shifts fluid into the stomach to dilute the solution there to allow it to be digested and absorbed. Once it is cleared, the pain goes away and you can start working out harder again.
Re: cramping in the upper rib area. If it is up under the ribs it is probably a cramp of the diaphram muscle. If it is your stomach, then it is a fueling issue.
@Penny: Could you elaborate a bit more about how much water is needed to drink, if for instance I take three (Hi5) gels an hour (80 kcal each)
@Bo: A minimum with each gel is 8 oz but I'd recommend up to 12 or maybe more. IMHO the more you can dilute it the better. I actually recommend using a flask with the gels in it and some water to make it easier to take. That way you can sip on the flask and take water vs. having to take a whole gel down at once.
@penny: could you elaborate a bit more on this...sounds exactly like something I have been struggling with for years:
"Re: cramping in the upper rib area. If it is up under the ribs it is probably a cramp of the diaphram muscle. If it is your stomach, then it is a fueling issue."
center...pretty much every IM (at least at 4 out of my 7 so far)
At what point during the IM? What kind of nutrition are you using? Just pain or also bloating? Is it cramping? Do you have any diarrhea, gas, etc during/after?
Always within the first 5k on the run...I have tried all different kinds of nutrition...I'm currently on 100% liquid / gels (high5), but have tried solids in the past.. seems to be just pain...It prevents me from taking in extra kcalls etc...even water hurts...no gas or diarrhea... the pain even continues the following days when I just try to walk fast..have tried all sorts of things..
Always within the first 5k on the run...I have tried all different kinds of nutrition...I'm currently on 100% liquid / gels (high5), but have tried solids in the past.. seems to be just pain...It prevents me from taking in extra kcalls etc...even water hurts...no gas or diarrhea... the pain even continues the following days when I just try to walk fast..have tried all sorts of things..
Any gastric reflux issues in the past? Doe sit happen during training? Are you spending a lot of time aero? How radical is your aero position?
Any gastric reflux issues in the past? Doe sit happen during training? Are you spending a lot of time aero? How radical is your aero position?
Not that I'm aware of... It has never happned in training - even when I'm deliberately trying to provoke it... I try to stay aero as close to 100% of the time as possible (the 112M usually take me just over 5 hours)... I currently have a 12 cm drop... I used to have a smaller drop... still had problems
Any gastric reflux issues in the past? Doe sit happen during training? Are you spending a lot of time aero? How radical is your aero position?
Not that I'm aware of... It has never happned in training - even when I'm deliberately trying to provoke it... I try to stay aero as close to 100% of the time as possible (the 112M usually take me just over 5 hours)... I currently have a 12 cm drop... I used to have a smaller drop... still had problems
Have you exactly replicated race day? I'm wondering if something is happening to the lower esophageal sphincter. Thinking. . . . Anything different between training and race day - food, activity, etc.? What about food the night before? Always the same?
I have tried all sorts of different things with foods.. One thing that I can think of is that I often get quite a lot of fibre... I want to cut that out now.. but I haven't got a fixed regimen in the days leading up to a race.. I have done everything I can to replicate race-day... swimming /bike change is difficult to replicate, so I have been wondering if the swimming has had any effect on this, but doesn't seem to (have changed breathing pattern, salt water/fresh water etc.)...I have really tried to provoke this in training - also by doing a lot of worse things to my body thta I do come race day..never experienced it in training Latest theory I had was that it had something to do with the fact that I get up so early in the morning on race day that my body isn't able to get going (complete morning ritual etc.), but I also seems to be having problems even when this part is working.
For what it's worth, I had the exact same issue at Ironman Lake Placid last year. Felt great on the bike and for the first 5 miles or so on the run, then major stomach cramp. Reduced me to a walk for a while, but it slowly eased up so that I could run again. But it was almost all just water from then on - any food seemed to bring the cramping back. Never had that happen in training. In reading the race reports last year after placid, there were other EN'ers with similar sounding symptoms. I've been wondering if the concentrated Infinite strategy is not cutting it on race day, at least for me.
Not to confuse things, but on the topic of Gels, I've been experiementing with a product called EFS liquid shot. Avertised as not having any gelling agents and it is much more of a liquid than a gel. I'm still experimenting but so far so good. It also mixes really well with a little bit of water as Penny has suggested. Gels work great for me during training but more than say 4 or 5 and my stomach starts to get a little sour...
Comments
@Jim: That bike-to-run time really is where problems seem to happen. Honestly, the mix of Infinit with gels and chews could have been what caused the problem. I'm a huge fan of keeping things as simple as possible with one to two fueling options. Sounds like your GI tract went into revolt and, perhaps didn't have enough time to clear from the problem around mile 5.
Was it hot up there on race day? How did the temperature compare to what you had trained in?
Ok....jumping in here a bit to play the Devil's Advocate
.
A few notes:
I want everyone to understand that this is a potentially dangerous time of year to be having conversations like this. I can see / sense a lot of members thinking lots of "me too!" stuff...which is fine, but understand that Patrick methodically tried this stuff out, built up his capacity to take in calories on the bike via a process. He didn't just -- BANG -- start doing this as I sense others are thinking of doing with comments that they want to try this stuff out right away.
Questions for the smart, nutrition, sports phys folks in the house, of which I am not one:
So by taking in more calories on the bike, I get that Patrick is shifting away from burning glycogen towards burning the carbs he's eating which in turn burn the fat. I get that. What I don't get is why take in over 700 calories per HOUR on the bike? In my opinion:
In short, 300 cal/hr, sure. 400 cal/hr, maybe. 700 cal/hr...do not try this at home, NOT without a very well planned process to bring up your ability (your Chow FTP, if you will
) to take in a lot of calories...
...but then I go back to my "it's not needed" and "it's risky" points above.
And, again, hopefully one of the smart folks can edumacate us all, we understand that this conversation is not closed, and realize this is an incredibly valuable opportunity for us to all learn...but hopefully we can all step back and get that learnin' on before anyone makes dramatic changes to their race plans!
@Penny - it was not especially hot. Mid 70's or so? But a blazing sun that made it seem hotter than it was.
@Rich - I hear you. In my case I have about 2.5 months until my next HIM, and my sights are really set in Lake Placid again in 2013, so I have a little time to experiment. Maybe the solution is not drastic - further simplifiction as Penny suggests, and maybe upping the calories a little to avoid a bonk on the run? I don't know. I really do like the simplicity of concientrated infinate. Hard to believe eating can be so complicated!
That said it'll be interesting to see ya'lls stories as you do experiment.
Also,..did you take the gels with sportsdrink rather than water?
Bump, for the smarty crowd to give us more insights into my Marine Math
so if I read this correctly, you started the increased calorie program while biking aobut 8 weeks out. Do you see this as an IM prep plan only or have you adopted these ideas into all future training?
What kinds of tests did they have you do - just the sweat test? Do they have a canned nutrtion plan or do they ask - what do you eat and then modify? Is it athlete food or family food or both?
I've got a year to think about nutrition. Not sure I'm broken, but maybe there are some things I'm leaving on the table.
http://enation.libsyn.com/webpage/ironman-texas-9-27-coach-patrick-s-nutrition-progression
@Tom, I will do this for all my training from now on -- as in my calories go up/down within my training, not at ice cream binges.
They had me do a sweat test and knew my weight and body fat. The regular 1:1 nutrition option meant I have someone on call who gets me menus / plans, etc. The Race Fuel plan was just a program that I got an implemented after the sweat test. It was athlete food, as in eat 4oz salmon, a sweet potatoe and 1 cup veggies for dinner...but nothing that others couldn't eat too!
Assuming you loaded PERFORM at every station, do the perform bottles fit the "regular" bottle cages on the bike?
Or one needs to re-fuel own bottles?
I did a HIM a few weeks ago and had that type of cramping at mile 2 of the run. My biggest problem is that I only have ONE fluid resevoir on my bike. So if I'm going to switch to solids at a certain point in the race, should I only use the Perform for the first 2/3 and then refill my resevoir with water and switch to solids??
Thanks for any input....
Kori
IM intensity (high end) is about 70% of VO2 max (need to express it in that way for the proportion of carbs/fat).
@ 70% of VO2 max, you burn about 60% carbs, 40% fat. (see second chart here http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/01/exercise-and-weight-loss-part-3-fat.html)
So, at Patrick's 800 kcal/hour output, he burns 480kcal of carb, 320kcal of fat per hour.
You don't need to replace ALL of the carb (you do have some liver and intramuscular glycogen to pull from), but you also spend the first hour face down in the water not taking calories, so let's say P needed somewhere between 400-450 kcal of carb/hour to fuel his performance. Looks to me like he was taking in about 500 per hour, so slightly high, but within the margin of error (especially since his advice didn't come from a SWAG in a forum!)
If you aren't going as relatively hard as he was or don't put out the massive power he does, you would need to adjust down. I have a really, really hard time imagining someone needing more than that.
Kori - Penny is in transit to speak at CDA. However, to answer your question, yes that did contribute to your GI issue. You are not providing you gut with enough water to transport the nutrition. You don't have to make a cold turkey switch, you just want to make sure that when you take down the solids that you are chasing it with the appropriate amount of water and that you are not exceeding your body's limit for the number of carbs it can handle an hour. I tend not to mix them, because I can't keep track of liquid cals and solid cals and water...
I have also been testing this http://www.highfive.co.uk/isogel_INT.php because it is designed to be taken without water — which allows you to separate the hydration task from the fueling task — they seem to work for me.
YMMV
@Kori: When I work with athletes on their race nutrition plans, I like to only have two sources of fuel involved. Otherwise it just gets too complicated. If you are doing gels or chews, you need to take them down with plenty of water and allow plenty of time between them and the CarboPro/Perform. With each intake of fuel you are putting carbohydrate molecules in your stomach and intestines. Get to many of them in there and your body says, "WOAH! I gotta dilute all this stuff she put in me to be able to digest it. But, this crazy lady is exercising and taking away all to blood I need to dilute it." Hence, your stomach starts hurting which causes you to slow down. Then,it shifts fluid into the stomach to dilute the solution there to allow it to be digested and absorbed. Once it is cleared, the pain goes away and you can start working out harder again.
Re: cramping in the upper rib area. If it is up under the ribs it is probably a cramp of the diaphram muscle. If it is your stomach, then it is a fueling issue.
Does that help?
@Bo: A minimum with each gel is 8 oz but I'd recommend up to 12 or maybe more. IMHO the more you can dilute it the better. I actually recommend using a flask with the gels in it and some water to make it easier to take. That way you can sip on the flask and take water vs. having to take a whole gel down at once.
Does that help?
"Re: cramping in the upper rib area. If it is up under the ribs it is probably a cramp of the diaphram muscle. If it is your stomach, then it is a fueling issue."
Mine are often just below the ribs
Just below the ribs where? Left/right/center? When does it happen?
At what point during the IM? What kind of nutrition are you using? Just pain or also bloating? Is it cramping? Do you have any diarrhea, gas, etc during/after?
Any gastric reflux issues in the past? Doe sit happen during training? Are you spending a lot of time aero? How radical is your aero position?
Not that I'm aware of... It has never happned in training - even when I'm deliberately trying to provoke it... I try to stay aero as close to 100% of the time as possible (the 112M usually take me just over 5 hours)... I currently have a 12 cm drop... I used to have a smaller drop... still had problems
Have you exactly replicated race day? I'm wondering if something is happening to the lower esophageal sphincter. Thinking. . . . Anything different between training and race day - food, activity, etc.? What about food the night before? Always the same?
I have done everything I can to replicate race-day... swimming /bike change is difficult to replicate, so I have been wondering if the swimming has had any effect on this, but doesn't seem to (have changed breathing pattern, salt water/fresh water etc.)...I have really tried to provoke this in training - also by doing a lot of worse things to my body thta I do come race day..never experienced it in training
Latest theory I had was that it had something to do with the fact that I get up so early in the morning on race day that my body isn't able to get going (complete morning ritual etc.), but I also seems to be having problems even when this part is working.