Bart - very well written! My favorite ball player, Pete Rose, will never be in the Hall of Fame, but at least he didn't cheat as a player. I can respect Rose for what he did on the field, and be disappointed that he ruined his chance to be in the Hall of Fame. Lance cheated as a player on the field and might would have been one of the all-time best triathletes of all time, had he never left the sport for cycling? Who knows, he still might have cheated in triathlon, but I believe the urge to cheat in triathlon is not like it is in cycling. Lance has joined the many members of the Hall of Shame! That's a real let down to say the least, for someone I, and many others in our sport, looked up to. I sure am glad he didn't do it in triathlon and had a bunch of Ironman Championships.
I guess I must be really naive. I could never imagine an AGer doping/cheating. Ok its hard enough for me to imagine a pro cheating, but that one is way easier to swallow. But an age grouper? For what? A little piece of plastic and some bragging rights for about 5 minutes? Stupid. I am way new to this sport (~1 year) but I've always said then when I stop smiling, I stop doing it. If it isnt fun then why bother? I'll never understand why people feel the need to cheat. But hey Lance is the one who has to get up every morning and look at himself in the mirror, if he is cool with what he sees, then so be it.
I guarantee the cheating within the AG ranks is much, much worse than the pro field.
Once people starting typing in all caps and starting making broad accusatory statements about other folk’s opinions, I tried to stop reading this thread, but I just could not help myself. It’s like trolling slowtwitch, you know it’s not good for you, but it’s addictive. However, after sleeping on it and after a conversation with my wife about how different niches of society develop different ‘norms’, I felt I had to jump up on my soapbox for a minute. I will caveat everything I say here with: This is my opinion. It is sure to be flawed and biased, but it is what it is. I respect that everyone else has an opinion and respect the fact that, for the most part, we seem to be able to discuss, debate, and disagree with those opinions in a respectful manner. I also believe that for the most part, people’s opinions on this topic are pretty set and are not going to change. So read this for what it is; my own ramblings on the topic of character.
Integrity is one of the only things that you have to willingly give away. Like some of the previous posters in there, I’m in the military. I’ve been a Marine infantryman for almost 22 years. Without being overly dramatic or making things bigger than what they are, integrity is a large component of military service. In my line of work, you have to be able to count on other people, be they subordinates, superiors, adjacent units, living up to their word. Secure my vulnerable flank, provide fire support where and when I ask for it, deliver chow and ammunition to my units when I need it, stay awake and alert while I sleep, do the paperwork so that my people get paid and can take care of their families, etc; the list goes on and on. In my world, your word counts. Period. If you don’t have integrity, I can’t count on you to do your mission in support of me or my unit. I cannot trust the lives of my people to you. Without going all “A Few Good Men” on you, what you do counts for something meaningful. On the other hand, I’m not naïve enough to think that the military has some special market on integrity. I personally have not always made the right call. Recent news cycles have been full of General level officers that have lied and created systems to support those lies. As a sub-culture within our larger society, we are as flawed as everyone else. However, regardless of individual actions within a system, right is right and wrong is wrong. Those times I personally haven’t made the right call, I’ve been held accountable for my actions. In most cases, I like to think the same rules have been applied to others in my own line of work as well.
To the topic at hand, cycling is not military service. I understand that. Regardless of the level, cycling (and other sports) is just a game. Some folks can make money from it, but at the end of the day, it’s still just a game. Some folks may think that linking the two in this discussion is a bit much. I don’t, I’m biased, I’m a product of the system that I have spent more time in than out of in my lifetime. To wit, character is character. Regardless of the situation, you either have integrity or you don’t. Integrity is what you do when no one is watching. I do not believe LA has integrity. Do I admire the physical spectacle of what he was able to accomplish in cycling? Yes. Do I think everyone else around him was doing it? For the most part, yes. Does that mean he was justified to dope? No. Period. No. Can one man make a difference? Can one man stand up to a system and make a change? Rare, but ask U.S. Army Warrant Officer Hugh Thompson if standing up to the people in the face of adversity is the right thing to do. If the name doesn’t ring a bell, read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson,_Jr.) In most circumstances, there comes a point, a singular point of departure, where you make the conscious decision to either choose the ‘right’ way or the ‘wrong’ way. LA made a decision to break the rules, period. Then he made a decision to persecute and defame those that tried to break the cycle. He was wrong. He gave away his integrity to play a sport. I don’t care if ‘everyone else was doing it.’ If you don’t like the system or the rules of the game you are in, change the system, change the rules, or play another game. Mob mentality is not a basis for good decisions.
@Joe, you asked about examples that people idolize. While I don’t ‘idolize’ anyone, there are three folks that come to mind when folks ask me about my heroes. I’ve already mentioned one. The other two are in my own family. The first is my grandfather on my mother’s side. He gave up a career playing in the NBA (yes, that NBA) to join the Army and serve his country when we went to war. He ended up hurting his back which ended his basketball career and going to work in education at the university level, coaching, teaching, and eventually, administration, for 30 years until he died of cancer. He made a positive impact in people’s lives, many of them. The football complex at his university bears his name. My parents actually met in his office. This brings us to my second hero, my mother. Growing up, I watched her, as a professional with a graduate degree, make a laughable wage (<$19k a year), working in the Alabama public school system teaching students with moderate to severe learning disabilities. She was always positive, had time for me and her students, and genuinely cared about making life better for those around her. They all set an example of sacrifice to me that I struggle to live up to today. Were they perfect? Probably not. But they didn’t build a life centered on lies and tearing down those that tried to do the right thing. Heroes do exist. I’m sure that if everyone looks hard enough, they can probably find positive examples in their own worlds.</p>
I don’t believe that athletes should be role models (as quoted by another Alabama celebrity, Charles Barkley). I respect their athletic achievements, what they can do physically. But it’s the act itself, the ride up the mountain, the ability to drain three pointers at clutch moments, the stamina to protect the quarterback’s blind side in the 4th quarter, that I respect, not an athlete’s moral character. I can watch LA ride up Alp D’ Huez and admire the beauty of the ride. But I don’t respect him as a person. The act and the person are separate. Does Livestrong do great stuff? Yes. Would it exist without LA? Probably not. But that’s a moot point. An overabundance of good does not negate the bad. LA cheated and broke the rules of the system that he was in. That is wrong.
Again, I really don’t want to offend folks and I completely understand those on the other side of this debate. I used to be there. I don’t agree with the opposing position, but I understand it and respect your ability to have it. I also understand that some may think that the connecting files that I’ve drawn in my argument are not appropriate. That’s ok, too. We all see the world through our own lenses. These are mine.
I guess I must be really naive. I could never imagine an AGer doping/cheating. Ok its hard enough for me to imagine a pro cheating, but that one is way easier to swallow. But an age grouper? For what? A little piece of plastic and some bragging rights for about 5 minutes? Stupid. I am way new to this sport (~1 year) but I've always said then when I stop smiling, I stop doing it. If it isnt fun then why bother? I'll never understand why people feel the need to cheat. But hey Lance is the one who has to get up every morning and look at himself in the mirror, if he is cool with what he sees, then so be it.
Consider me naive too. I can't imagine someone taking AG athletics that seriously. Pathetic, IMHO. Just pathetic.
Officials familiar with the decision tell The Associated Press the IOC has stripped Lance Armstrong of his bronze medal from the 2000 Sydney Olympics because of his involvement in doping.
This is just the start for LA his body cashed the check that his mind might not be able to pay off today.
Lots of good stuff in here. I had a long drive this morning so came up with a little thought experiment. It's just so easy to look back 20 yrs later and say LA cheated so he's a cheater, end of discussion. He's a cheater, has no honor, a fraud or even an asshat. He may actually be some or all of those things. Clearly he has a big ego and a lot of drive. Did this help him get to the top of his sport, absolutely. Did he run over some people along the way, yup. There are very few people who got tot the top of "their" world without running over a few people. I'm certainly no Bart when it comes to grammar or expressing the thoughts bottled up in my head in an eloquent way, but here's my lame attempt at a thought experiment. Disclaimer: This thought experiments is meant to be both extreme and ridiculous, but to was meant to simply paint a narrative to force you to answer hard questions real time instead of 20 yrs later...
Imagine there's a new professional sport called "Ironman". And imagine you are one of 30 or so people competing in this new sport. And in my imaginary world, there are no AGers. Now imagine, you grew up swimming, biking and running from the time you were 12 until you your mid 20's and this was really your only real shot at supporting your new wife and child. And let's just imagine that the rules of this new sport are exactly the same as the USAT rules currently are governing Ironman races today. Also imagine that you and the other 29 pro's are all VERY similar in your athletic ability. But since you have trained very hard for the last 10 yrs, you can swim 2.4 miles ~2mins faster than any other racer. Now imagine you can bike 112 miles about 4 minutes faster than all of the other pros and also imagine that you can currently run at exact same speed as all of the other pros. Also imagine that everyone always follows every USAT rule exactly as written as well as in spirit. Okay, that's a lot of imagining, but if all of those things are true, then you would pretty much win every race by about 6 minutes, with evenly spaced competitors behind you. I know this is unreasonable, but this is my thought experiment so I can paint any narrative I want.
So in the first yr of this new sport, there are officials following every moment of the race with people on motorcycles following every racer, and checking all gear for compliance, etc. So you basically win your every race by 6 minutes and people are evenly spaced behind you and life is grand. You win $10,000 per race of the 4 race season and you are happy. The 2nd place person each race wins $5,000 per race and is also reasonably happy, and the 3rd person makes $2,000 per race. The other 27 people get nothing. However, the promoters aren't happy because there is no drama and the spacing is boring and it makes for a boring 1 hr TV recap show with no drama.
In the 2nd yr they got a big new shoe sponsor to put down a big purse but they also talked to the WTC and "suggested" a few format changes on how they could make the race more "TV Appropriate". A week before the first race, the WTC announces that the payouts for the first race will be $25,000/$10,000/$5,000 (for podium finishers) and that instead of officials and TV cameras on motorcycles on the bike leg they will set up "Viewing Towers" that all of the race officials and TV crews will be posted in. These towers will be located at mile markers 0/30/60/90/112 and have a viewing range with zoom lenses of about 1 mile in each direction but demand that all racers follow all USAT rules as written and in spirit but you expected to not report any rules violations from anyone but yourself with normal penalties applying. Just like every race you come out of the water 2 minutes ahead of the pack and start to pull away from the field on the bike. However, at mile 40 of the bike, 6 riders come flying past you in a paceline similar to what you would see on a Tour du France Team Time-Trial. They blow by you working together and you fall back behind them making sure to stay clear of their draft zone. After putting out a much bigger than normal effort to stay within sight of this pace line, you notice that they spread out to well within legal drafting limits at about mile 55 through 65 (and pass the tower without penalty). Around about mile 70 a large peleton of about 15 riders goes past you and again you fall back. You stay even farther behind this peleton than normal (~50') because even though you are legal as the rules are written, the "spirit" of the rules is such that you know you are getting a "draft advantage" if you are any closer to this peleton. As the race plays out, the 6 riders that finished the bike leg close to each other jockeyed back and forth the entire run and there was a mad 4 way sprint for the finish and the TV ratings went through the roof.
1) What would you do? Would you quit the sport or train harder? You are already the fastest guy in the field but you finished a paltry 22nd out of 30th.
Because the ratings were so high on the first race, the sponsor was able to up the pot. A week before the 2nd race, the WTC announced that the the payouts for the second race will be $75,000/$35,000/$20,000 (for podium finishers) and then will decrease by $5k for each of the next 3 places, then be $2,500 for anyone in the top 15 places. The second race plays out very similar to the first with 6 guys passing you in a paceline around mile 40 and another 15 or so passing you in a peleton around mile 70 and once again you finish in ~20th place. It was another dramatic finish and the TV ratings go through the roof.
Now your mortgage is due and your wife just told you that she's pregnant with your 2nd kid. She wonders why you aren't bringing home the same paycheck as last yr and questions if you are training as hard as the others. Your brother asks if you could get him the autographs of some of the top guys in the sport.
2) What would you do? Would you try to train harder? Would you get a job at the local hardware store to help pay the bills? Would you out the drafters?
Because the ratings were even higher in this second race, the sponsor was able to up the pot once again. A week before the 3rd race, the WTC announced that the the payouts for the third race will be $250,000/$100,000/$75,000/$50,000/$25,000/$15,000/$10,000/$5,000, then be $2,500 for anyone in the top 25 places. The third race plays out very similar to the first two with 6 guys passing you in a paceline around mile 40 and another 15 or so passing you in a peleton around mile 70 with several of them looking over and smirking at you. As you fall back to let it pass you start to wonder...
3) what would you do? This is your lifeblood right now. Why should your wife and kids suffer? You are faster than all these guys on a stand alone no drafting TT. Don't these guys know they are cheating by drafting. Of course they don't draft near miles 0/30/60/90/112. Of course they don't get caught. Why are these officials so stupid, who cares about the TV ratings? This sport is supposed to be pure.
So just this once, you hang about 2 bike lengths behind the last guy in this peleton. No harm being here, right. You're not cheating right? The rest of the guys are only 2 inches from the other guy's wheel and you're ~6 feet back. You notice when you finish the bike that your legs aren't as trashed as normal and that peleton was filled with weaker runners than you. You work your way all the way up to 5th place and collect a $25,000 check. Your wife is relieved that you can pay the mortgage and will not starve.
4) Do you feel guilty? Should you come clean? Should you expose the fraud? Should you bring down this sport? Should you give back the check?
You feel so guilty that you make a $1,000 donation to the local food bank and get in an argument with your wife. For the fourth and final race of the season, you hop in 2 bike lengths behind the first 6 person paceline. You don't work with the group, but you do get some benefit from it. Someone in the second peleton got sloppy this day and stayed too close near one of the watch towers and got a 4 minute drafting penalty, but was still collected the $2,500 check for finishing in 23rd place. He got laughed at by his fellow competitors for being so stupid. You finished in 3rd place and collected your $75,000 check. This time you make a $5,000 donation to make yourself feel a little less guilty.
As the yrs moved on you trained harder and harder for the run and the pot sizes grew. You were now working with the small groups on the bike and were now making ~$5,000,000 per yr racing since the WTC added 3 new races to the circuit. The Public was going crazy for all of the exciting finishes! You become a role model for donating half of all of your race purses to the food kitchen in your home town and this starts a trend in the sport where most athletes regularly donate half of their purse to the charity of their choice. Every once in a while someone would get a drafting penalty when they lost track of what mile they were at and drafted too near a watch tower. The officials even boasted to the public about their new super powered binoculars that could spot cheating drafters 2 miles from every watch tower. They even decided to add an extra watch tower at mile 105 to clean up rumored drafting near the end of the bike leg.
After one notable race that you won, the 2nd place guy told a local newspaper that you drafted and were a cheater.
5) What would you do? Would you admit to the world that you are a cheater? You did the exact same thing as that guy. He was in the same freakin' paceline as you for the whole bike leg and you simply outran him.
When asked by the reporter you tell the truth. "There are a lot of towers out there and I have never been accused by any official of cheating". This satisfied the reporter and they went on to shame this guy as a sore loser and he never spoke up again.
Time warp ahead several years... You had a long and fruitful career. Many of the top triathletes had made many millions of dollars in this awesome sport. Occasionally someone got busted for drafting, but nobody really seemed to care because the finishes were exciting and the ratings were high. But after about 15 yrs a new crop of triathletes came up through the ranks. The public sentiment started to change on "alleged" drafting. The WTC decided to add 1 official on a motorcycle to check for drafting. The next yr they changed that to 2 motorcycles. After 4-5 yrs they got rid of the watch towers all together and added 15 race officials on motorcycles. People still drafted when they could, and they got caught a lot more frequently and they couldn't do pacelines or peletons any more. They even decided to change the drafting penalty to 5 minutes from 4.
Fast forward 10 more yrs... You have personally given $50 million to your home town and solved the poverty problem. You also started a national trend which undoubtedly saved hundreds of thousands of lives. You have been out of the sport by more than a decade but you are still an inspiration for many.
Eventually, people started to say you were a bad person. At first, your hoard of followers were really upset and ostracized your detractors. A couple yrs later there were more questions about your past. People said you were a cheater and never should have won those 7 WTC World Championships. You denied that and reminded them that you were the best. Every couple of yrs, someone would pop up and talk about your unfair advantage. How you could get closer to the wheel in front of you than anyone. It wasn't fair that you focused on being a better runner because the bike was less important in that era. You continued to remind everyone that never once in your illustrious career were you busted for drafted.
People you beat decades ago started to accuse you of being a fraud. First one, then another, then another. 15 other guys from your era came forward and agreed to testify against you that you drafted and cheated so they could get immunity for any and all or their own drafting. One of the guys even wrote a book documenting how drafting was rampant for many yrs in Ironman 20 yrs ago and implemented you as the ringleader and did a whole expose on how you bullied all of the pros of the day into joining your paceline or your peleton. You called them sore losers and simply said that you were better than them and they couldn't handle it. Eventually, someone produced the GoPro footage from 20 yrs ago where you were in the middle of a paceline working with 5 other guys in a race you that you went on to win. Then about 20 more hours of footage showed up documenting your rampant cheating. The public was outraged! Your Foundation was forced to remove you as spokesman and people around the country were ashamed that they ever donated money to help the homeless and hungry. Nobody could understand how you could live with yourself. You were a Liar. You have no Honor. You are nothing but a no good cheat. You are an asshat!
You finally make the phone call you had been secretly dreading for a while... "Hello Oprah, I know your network is failing, but any chance you have room on your couch?"
My good friend and EN training plan athlete, Mike Boyle, happens to be in Austin today on vacation. He texts me a pic of Mellow Johnny's and describes the weird vibe in the store. I text him back that for his Thurs run he should snipe one of Lance's Strava running course records (CR) in town. Mission accomplished. To make a bad day worse, Lance got the dreaded Strava email, "Uh oh, Mike Boyle just stole your CR!". Perhaps with the lifetime ban, he will be resolved to Strava redemption and go after Mike's KOM's and CR's.
@ John ... Interesting perspective. One additional detail might make for a closer analogy: a mention of the deaths and injuries caused by wheels touching when riders drafted too close (while out of sight of those towers). E.g., Marco Pantani.
I get that you are trying to help explain why cyclists did what they did. This is the culture Lance grew up in. I assume you are also pointing out that the ruling body carries a large measure of accountability. $ > health and even life is a sorry state of affairs.
For those who need a refresher on the serious risks of doping specifically in cycling, read this.
John - I understand your point, but one critical element of your analogy that is missing is the part where there is villification of those who call me a fraud (if I were to put myself in the scenario you painted).
An awful lot of what you mention is reason why I believe that I, and most people, can ultimately forgive the cheating. Yes, there are those who won't forgive the cheating (and I totally understand where they are coming from), but for the most part the public is very willing to forgive those who commit acts that I think are far worse than something like cheating in a sport. It's the way he handled the accusations, by being personal against those who were just telling the truth, that bothers me.
BTW, if you're recording the interview tonight, the second part airs tomorrow night. My channel guide shows 10:30pm central, after they reshow the first part from tonight.
I gotta admit...I haven't thought about Lance much these last few years as it became increasingly clear but I did get drawn into it. I used to idolize the guy...when I was on the college cycling team we would train in Austin for spring break. We met him in the late 90s before he won his Tours and before most people knew who Lance Armstrong was.
You can argue the whole moral relativism idea, and I know each person has a different moral compass but the things he did to his former friends and colleagues is incredibly disturbing. I typically try not to judge others, but sometimes it's hard not too.
I would have thought it would be difficult for Lance to walk away from this interview looking worse than he already did, but I think that is just what happened. I didn't sense any sincerity to his responses, regret for those he wronged, and it still feels like there are things he's not telling. He skirted a number of BIG questions. Dr. Ferrari. His huge donation to UCI. Why the Feds dropped their case. I have to think there is more to it than this.
That said, I can't help but feel a bit sorry for the guy, mostly as a parent. How can you look your kids in the eye and tell them that. And after you do so, how do you earn their trust and set them on the right path for their lives.
When is she gonna throw him a bone about the playing field? Bicycling magazine had a graphic that showed the roll down of his 7 tour wins. Some years you had to go to #15 to find a no name guy without a bit of drug history. And, I believe if any one cared and investigated the no name guys, they would have dope in their history as well!
The interview thing was a transparent attempt at image revitalization, spearheaded by media consultants. WHy Oprah? She's soft and cuddly, and we could feel good about Lance snuggling with her and saying he's sorry. Put him up against, say, Anderson Cooper, and it's not as fuzzy and sweet.
It was clear to me that the one thing he is most sorry about is, being caught. Sad.
I thought in general the interview has been disappointing. Oprah is clearly not the best interviewer for the enthousiast cycling fan, it's more about emotions and very little about facts and details how they worked the system. It seems about 75-80% of what he said was true but certain things are not. The UCI is clearly protected... "i wasn't a big fan of the UCI, but they needed money, I had money, the asked me and I give it". Yeah right Lance.
He also didn't want to discuss the incident in the Indiana hospital but I can understand his reasons since Dr Nichols had claimed that conversation never took place, and he doesn't want to get the guy that saved his life into court / jail.
I'm also having a hard time believing he has been clean since 2005. I believe this is an attempt to get into racing again, if he can get his sentence reduced from life to 8 years and find a way to get this suspension to be backdated to 2005 he may be racing again this year.
Here's the thing a lot of people don't seem to get...
He isn't going to name names and throw people under the bus on Oprah. There's no reason to and anyone thinking he was going to be that detailed were delusional. He said pretty much exactly what I thought he would say in that setting.
He will have his time to be more detailed if/when he meets with WADA. Oprah was the first step to the whole truth. He obviously wants to compete again and will certainly have to provide very detailed testimony to WADA to get his ban lifted and reduced. The Armstrong Confession Tour is far from over.
I'm really not sure what I expected from the interview. I guess it was so hyped that I thought Oprah would be a bit more aggressive with him and kind of force him to answer the questions he danced around. I stopped watching it around 40 mins into it. If anything, I think he made himself look worse, if that's possible. He just didnt seem remorseful or really that sorry he did what he did. Like someone else said, he seemed more sorry that he got caught. I hope the lifetime ban sticks.
@Ben. My expectations of Oprah were pretty low going in so I was pleasantly surprised at times. She missed a few follow up questions but she did press him at times. I 100% agree with you re the Indianan hospital story. Also the that he had not doped since 2005 made me laugh out loud.
I would have liked to have heard a more sincere apology to Emma O'Reilly who he had called a drunk and a whore. Nice huh!
Comments
thanks for the laugh, this thread needed that!
TOTALLY OFF-TOPIC: Bart has truly missed his calling. Or is he Samuel Clemens reincarnated????
Bart - very well written! My favorite ball player, Pete Rose, will never be in the Hall of Fame, but at least he didn't cheat as a player. I can respect Rose for what he did on the field, and be disappointed that he ruined his chance to be in the Hall of Fame. Lance cheated as a player on the field and might would have been one of the all-time best triathletes of all time, had he never left the sport for cycling? Who knows, he still might have cheated in triathlon, but I believe the urge to cheat in triathlon is not like it is in cycling. Lance has joined the many members of the Hall of Shame! That's a real let down to say the least, for someone I, and many others in our sport, looked up to. I sure am glad he didn't do it in triathlon and had a bunch of Ironman Championships.
I guarantee the cheating within the AG ranks is much, much worse than the pro field.
VOTE FOR BART!!
Once people starting typing in all caps and starting making broad accusatory statements about other folk’s opinions, I tried to stop reading this thread, but I just could not help myself. It’s like trolling slowtwitch, you know it’s not good for you, but it’s addictive. However, after sleeping on it and after a conversation with my wife about how different niches of society develop different ‘norms’, I felt I had to jump up on my soapbox for a minute. I will caveat everything I say here with: This is my opinion. It is sure to be flawed and biased, but it is what it is. I respect that everyone else has an opinion and respect the fact that, for the most part, we seem to be able to discuss, debate, and disagree with those opinions in a respectful manner. I also believe that for the most part, people’s opinions on this topic are pretty set and are not going to change. So read this for what it is; my own ramblings on the topic of character.
Integrity is one of the only things that you have to willingly give away. Like some of the previous posters in there, I’m in the military. I’ve been a Marine infantryman for almost 22 years. Without being overly dramatic or making things bigger than what they are, integrity is a large component of military service. In my line of work, you have to be able to count on other people, be they subordinates, superiors, adjacent units, living up to their word. Secure my vulnerable flank, provide fire support where and when I ask for it, deliver chow and ammunition to my units when I need it, stay awake and alert while I sleep, do the paperwork so that my people get paid and can take care of their families, etc; the list goes on and on. In my world, your word counts. Period. If you don’t have integrity, I can’t count on you to do your mission in support of me or my unit. I cannot trust the lives of my people to you. Without going all “A Few Good Men” on you, what you do counts for something meaningful. On the other hand, I’m not naïve enough to think that the military has some special market on integrity. I personally have not always made the right call. Recent news cycles have been full of General level officers that have lied and created systems to support those lies. As a sub-culture within our larger society, we are as flawed as everyone else. However, regardless of individual actions within a system, right is right and wrong is wrong. Those times I personally haven’t made the right call, I’ve been held accountable for my actions. In most cases, I like to think the same rules have been applied to others in my own line of work as well.
To the topic at hand, cycling is not military service. I understand that. Regardless of the level, cycling (and other sports) is just a game. Some folks can make money from it, but at the end of the day, it’s still just a game. Some folks may think that linking the two in this discussion is a bit much. I don’t, I’m biased, I’m a product of the system that I have spent more time in than out of in my lifetime. To wit, character is character. Regardless of the situation, you either have integrity or you don’t. Integrity is what you do when no one is watching. I do not believe LA has integrity. Do I admire the physical spectacle of what he was able to accomplish in cycling? Yes. Do I think everyone else around him was doing it? For the most part, yes. Does that mean he was justified to dope? No. Period. No. Can one man make a difference? Can one man stand up to a system and make a change? Rare, but ask U.S. Army Warrant Officer Hugh Thompson if standing up to the people in the face of adversity is the right thing to do. If the name doesn’t ring a bell, read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Thompson,_Jr.) In most circumstances, there comes a point, a singular point of departure, where you make the conscious decision to either choose the ‘right’ way or the ‘wrong’ way. LA made a decision to break the rules, period. Then he made a decision to persecute and defame those that tried to break the cycle. He was wrong. He gave away his integrity to play a sport. I don’t care if ‘everyone else was doing it.’ If you don’t like the system or the rules of the game you are in, change the system, change the rules, or play another game. Mob mentality is not a basis for good decisions.
@Joe, you asked about examples that people idolize. While I don’t ‘idolize’ anyone, there are three folks that come to mind when folks ask me about my heroes. I’ve already mentioned one. The other two are in my own family. The first is my grandfather on my mother’s side. He gave up a career playing in the NBA (yes, that NBA) to join the Army and serve his country when we went to war. He ended up hurting his back which ended his basketball career and going to work in education at the university level, coaching, teaching, and eventually, administration, for 30 years until he died of cancer. He made a positive impact in people’s lives, many of them. The football complex at his university bears his name. My parents actually met in his office. This brings us to my second hero, my mother. Growing up, I watched her, as a professional with a graduate degree, make a laughable wage (<$19k a year), working in the Alabama public school system teaching students with moderate to severe learning disabilities. She was always positive, had time for me and her students, and genuinely cared about making life better for those around her. They all set an example of sacrifice to me that I struggle to live up to today. Were they perfect? Probably not. But they didn’t build a life centered on lies and tearing down those that tried to do the right thing. Heroes do exist. I’m sure that if everyone looks hard enough, they can probably find positive examples in their own worlds.</p>
I don’t believe that athletes should be role models (as quoted by another Alabama celebrity, Charles Barkley). I respect their athletic achievements, what they can do physically. But it’s the act itself, the ride up the mountain, the ability to drain three pointers at clutch moments, the stamina to protect the quarterback’s blind side in the 4th quarter, that I respect, not an athlete’s moral character. I can watch LA ride up Alp D’ Huez and admire the beauty of the ride. But I don’t respect him as a person. The act and the person are separate. Does Livestrong do great stuff? Yes. Would it exist without LA? Probably not. But that’s a moot point. An overabundance of good does not negate the bad. LA cheated and broke the rules of the system that he was in. That is wrong.
Again, I really don’t want to offend folks and I completely understand those on the other side of this debate. I used to be there. I don’t agree with the opposing position, but I understand it and respect your ability to have it. I also understand that some may think that the connecting files that I’ve drawn in my argument are not appropriate. That’s ok, too. We all see the world through our own lenses. These are mine.
*Steps down off soapbox*
Consider me naive too. I can't imagine someone taking AG athletics that seriously. Pathetic, IMHO. Just pathetic.
@Roy - Hugh Thompson... quite a story...
Expands ones thinking about what it means to be responsible...
Officials familiar with the decision tell The Associated Press the IOC has stripped Lance Armstrong of his bronze medal from the 2000 Sydney Olympics because of his involvement in doping.
This is just the start for LA his body cashed the check that his mind might not be able to pay off today.
Chevy Chase has a few words to say to Lance:
http://tinyurl.com/9n3d2up
(Good stuff, but NSFW due to language!)
Imagine there's a new professional sport called "Ironman". And imagine you are one of 30 or so people competing in this new sport. And in my imaginary world, there are no AGers. Now imagine, you grew up swimming, biking and running from the time you were 12 until you your mid 20's and this was really your only real shot at supporting your new wife and child. And let's just imagine that the rules of this new sport are exactly the same as the USAT rules currently are governing Ironman races today. Also imagine that you and the other 29 pro's are all VERY similar in your athletic ability. But since you have trained very hard for the last 10 yrs, you can swim 2.4 miles ~2mins faster than any other racer. Now imagine you can bike 112 miles about 4 minutes faster than all of the other pros and also imagine that you can currently run at exact same speed as all of the other pros. Also imagine that everyone always follows every USAT rule exactly as written as well as in spirit. Okay, that's a lot of imagining, but if all of those things are true, then you would pretty much win every race by about 6 minutes, with evenly spaced competitors behind you. I know this is unreasonable, but this is my thought experiment so I can paint any narrative I want.
So in the first yr of this new sport, there are officials following every moment of the race with people on motorcycles following every racer, and checking all gear for compliance, etc. So you basically win your every race by 6 minutes and people are evenly spaced behind you and life is grand. You win $10,000 per race of the 4 race season and you are happy. The 2nd place person each race wins $5,000 per race and is also reasonably happy, and the 3rd person makes $2,000 per race. The other 27 people get nothing. However, the promoters aren't happy because there is no drama and the spacing is boring and it makes for a boring 1 hr TV recap show with no drama.
In the 2nd yr they got a big new shoe sponsor to put down a big purse but they also talked to the WTC and "suggested" a few format changes on how they could make the race more "TV Appropriate". A week before the first race, the WTC announces that the payouts for the first race will be $25,000/$10,000/$5,000 (for podium finishers) and that instead of officials and TV cameras on motorcycles on the bike leg they will set up "Viewing Towers" that all of the race officials and TV crews will be posted in. These towers will be located at mile markers 0/30/60/90/112 and have a viewing range with zoom lenses of about 1 mile in each direction but demand that all racers follow all USAT rules as written and in spirit but you expected to not report any rules violations from anyone but yourself with normal penalties applying. Just like every race you come out of the water 2 minutes ahead of the pack and start to pull away from the field on the bike. However, at mile 40 of the bike, 6 riders come flying past you in a paceline similar to what you would see on a Tour du France Team Time-Trial. They blow by you working together and you fall back behind them making sure to stay clear of their draft zone. After putting out a much bigger than normal effort to stay within sight of this pace line, you notice that they spread out to well within legal drafting limits at about mile 55 through 65 (and pass the tower without penalty). Around about mile 70 a large peleton of about 15 riders goes past you and again you fall back. You stay even farther behind this peleton than normal (~50') because even though you are legal as the rules are written, the "spirit" of the rules is such that you know you are getting a "draft advantage" if you are any closer to this peleton. As the race plays out, the 6 riders that finished the bike leg close to each other jockeyed back and forth the entire run and there was a mad 4 way sprint for the finish and the TV ratings went through the roof.
1) What would you do? Would you quit the sport or train harder? You are already the fastest guy in the field but you finished a paltry 22nd out of 30th.
Because the ratings were so high on the first race, the sponsor was able to up the pot. A week before the 2nd race, the WTC announced that the the payouts for the second race will be $75,000/$35,000/$20,000 (for podium finishers) and then will decrease by $5k for each of the next 3 places, then be $2,500 for anyone in the top 15 places. The second race plays out very similar to the first with 6 guys passing you in a paceline around mile 40 and another 15 or so passing you in a peleton around mile 70 and once again you finish in ~20th place. It was another dramatic finish and the TV ratings go through the roof.
Now your mortgage is due and your wife just told you that she's pregnant with your 2nd kid. She wonders why you aren't bringing home the same paycheck as last yr and questions if you are training as hard as the others. Your brother asks if you could get him the autographs of some of the top guys in the sport.
2) What would you do? Would you try to train harder? Would you get a job at the local hardware store to help pay the bills? Would you out the drafters?
Because the ratings were even higher in this second race, the sponsor was able to up the pot once again. A week before the 3rd race, the WTC announced that the the payouts for the third race will be $250,000/$100,000/$75,000/$50,000/$25,000/$15,000/$10,000/$5,000, then be $2,500 for anyone in the top 25 places. The third race plays out very similar to the first two with 6 guys passing you in a paceline around mile 40 and another 15 or so passing you in a peleton around mile 70 with several of them looking over and smirking at you. As you fall back to let it pass you start to wonder...
3) what would you do? This is your lifeblood right now. Why should your wife and kids suffer? You are faster than all these guys on a stand alone no drafting TT. Don't these guys know they are cheating by drafting. Of course they don't draft near miles 0/30/60/90/112. Of course they don't get caught. Why are these officials so stupid, who cares about the TV ratings? This sport is supposed to be pure.
So just this once, you hang about 2 bike lengths behind the last guy in this peleton. No harm being here, right. You're not cheating right? The rest of the guys are only 2 inches from the other guy's wheel and you're ~6 feet back. You notice when you finish the bike that your legs aren't as trashed as normal and that peleton was filled with weaker runners than you. You work your way all the way up to 5th place and collect a $25,000 check. Your wife is relieved that you can pay the mortgage and will not starve.
4) Do you feel guilty? Should you come clean? Should you expose the fraud? Should you bring down this sport? Should you give back the check?
You feel so guilty that you make a $1,000 donation to the local food bank and get in an argument with your wife. For the fourth and final race of the season, you hop in 2 bike lengths behind the first 6 person paceline. You don't work with the group, but you do get some benefit from it. Someone in the second peleton got sloppy this day and stayed too close near one of the watch towers and got a 4 minute drafting penalty, but was still collected the $2,500 check for finishing in 23rd place. He got laughed at by his fellow competitors for being so stupid. You finished in 3rd place and collected your $75,000 check. This time you make a $5,000 donation to make yourself feel a little less guilty.
As the yrs moved on you trained harder and harder for the run and the pot sizes grew. You were now working with the small groups on the bike and were now making ~$5,000,000 per yr racing since the WTC added 3 new races to the circuit. The Public was going crazy for all of the exciting finishes! You become a role model for donating half of all of your race purses to the food kitchen in your home town and this starts a trend in the sport where most athletes regularly donate half of their purse to the charity of their choice. Every once in a while someone would get a drafting penalty when they lost track of what mile they were at and drafted too near a watch tower. The officials even boasted to the public about their new super powered binoculars that could spot cheating drafters 2 miles from every watch tower. They even decided to add an extra watch tower at mile 105 to clean up rumored drafting near the end of the bike leg.
After one notable race that you won, the 2nd place guy told a local newspaper that you drafted and were a cheater.
5) What would you do? Would you admit to the world that you are a cheater? You did the exact same thing as that guy. He was in the same freakin' paceline as you for the whole bike leg and you simply outran him.
When asked by the reporter you tell the truth. "There are a lot of towers out there and I have never been accused by any official of cheating". This satisfied the reporter and they went on to shame this guy as a sore loser and he never spoke up again.
Time warp ahead several years... You had a long and fruitful career. Many of the top triathletes had made many millions of dollars in this awesome sport. Occasionally someone got busted for drafting, but nobody really seemed to care because the finishes were exciting and the ratings were high. But after about 15 yrs a new crop of triathletes came up through the ranks. The public sentiment started to change on "alleged" drafting. The WTC decided to add 1 official on a motorcycle to check for drafting. The next yr they changed that to 2 motorcycles. After 4-5 yrs they got rid of the watch towers all together and added 15 race officials on motorcycles. People still drafted when they could, and they got caught a lot more frequently and they couldn't do pacelines or peletons any more. They even decided to change the drafting penalty to 5 minutes from 4.
Fast forward 10 more yrs... You have personally given $50 million to your home town and solved the poverty problem. You also started a national trend which undoubtedly saved hundreds of thousands of lives. You have been out of the sport by more than a decade but you are still an inspiration for many.
Eventually, people started to say you were a bad person. At first, your hoard of followers were really upset and ostracized your detractors. A couple yrs later there were more questions about your past. People said you were a cheater and never should have won those 7 WTC World Championships. You denied that and reminded them that you were the best. Every couple of yrs, someone would pop up and talk about your unfair advantage. How you could get closer to the wheel in front of you than anyone. It wasn't fair that you focused on being a better runner because the bike was less important in that era. You continued to remind everyone that never once in your illustrious career were you busted for drafted.
People you beat decades ago started to accuse you of being a fraud. First one, then another, then another. 15 other guys from your era came forward and agreed to testify against you that you drafted and cheated so they could get immunity for any and all or their own drafting. One of the guys even wrote a book documenting how drafting was rampant for many yrs in Ironman 20 yrs ago and implemented you as the ringleader and did a whole expose on how you bullied all of the pros of the day into joining your paceline or your peleton. You called them sore losers and simply said that you were better than them and they couldn't handle it. Eventually, someone produced the GoPro footage from 20 yrs ago where you were in the middle of a paceline working with 5 other guys in a race you that you went on to win. Then about 20 more hours of footage showed up documenting your rampant cheating. The public was outraged! Your Foundation was forced to remove you as spokesman and people around the country were ashamed that they ever donated money to help the homeless and hungry. Nobody could understand how you could live with yourself. You were a Liar. You have no Honor. You are nothing but a no good cheat. You are an asshat!
You finally make the phone call you had been secretly dreading for a while... "Hello Oprah, I know your network is failing, but any chance you have room on your couch?"
@ John ... Interesting perspective. One additional detail might make for a closer analogy: a mention of the deaths and injuries caused by wheels touching when riders drafted too close (while out of sight of those towers). E.g., Marco Pantani.
I get that you are trying to help explain why cyclists did what they did. This is the culture Lance grew up in. I assume you are also pointing out that the ruling body carries a large measure of accountability. $ > health and even life is a sorry state of affairs.
For those who need a refresher on the serious risks of doping specifically in cycling, read this.
An awful lot of what you mention is reason why I believe that I, and most people, can ultimately forgive the cheating. Yes, there are those who won't forgive the cheating (and I totally understand where they are coming from), but for the most part the public is very willing to forgive those who commit acts that I think are far worse than something like cheating in a sport. It's the way he handled the accusations, by being personal against those who were just telling the truth, that bothers me.
@John - You out the drafters. Strap a GoPro on your helmet. Post your buddy with a videocamera on the course. Alert the press.
I always tell my kids what Tim Horton, old defenceman for the Toronto Maple Leafs, would say, "The hard way is the easy way."
Yes.
Did he use EPO?
Yes.
Did he use other banned substances like steroids?
Yes.
Did he use PEDs in all seven of the Tour de France victories?
Yes.
OK, so we've hit the ground running … Armstrong says he lived a lie.
It was a perfect, mythic story. And it wasn't true.
She did not mess about did she !! ?
You can argue the whole moral relativism idea, and I know each person has a different moral compass but the things he did to his former friends and colleagues is incredibly disturbing. I typically try not to judge others, but sometimes it's hard not too.
I would have thought it would be difficult for Lance to walk away from this interview looking worse than he already did, but I think that is just what happened. I didn't sense any sincerity to his responses, regret for those he wronged, and it still feels like there are things he's not telling. He skirted a number of BIG questions. Dr. Ferrari. His huge donation to UCI. Why the Feds dropped their case. I have to think there is more to it than this.
That said, I can't help but feel a bit sorry for the guy, mostly as a parent. How can you look your kids in the eye and tell them that. And after you do so, how do you earn their trust and set them on the right path for their lives.
14 wrongs doesn't make a right.
The interview thing was a transparent attempt at image revitalization, spearheaded by media consultants. WHy Oprah? She's soft and cuddly, and we could feel good about Lance snuggling with her and saying he's sorry. Put him up against, say, Anderson Cooper, and it's not as fuzzy and sweet.
It was clear to me that the one thing he is most sorry about is, being caught. Sad.
He also didn't want to discuss the incident in the Indiana hospital but I can understand his reasons since Dr Nichols had claimed that conversation never took place, and he doesn't want to get the guy that saved his life into court / jail.
I'm also having a hard time believing he has been clean since 2005. I believe this is an attempt to get into racing again, if he can get his sentence reduced from life to 8 years and find a way to get this suspension to be backdated to 2005 he may be racing again this year.
Here's the thing a lot of people don't seem to get...
He isn't going to name names and throw people under the bus on Oprah. There's no reason to and anyone thinking he was going to be that detailed were delusional. He said pretty much exactly what I thought he would say in that setting.
He will have his time to be more detailed if/when he meets with WADA. Oprah was the first step to the whole truth. He obviously wants to compete again and will certainly have to provide very detailed testimony to WADA to get his ban lifted and reduced. The Armstrong Confession Tour is far from over.
I would have liked to have heard a more sincere apology to Emma O'Reilly who he had called a drunk and a whore. Nice huh!