There isn't an amount of money that would make me sell my wife or my co-workers up the river... Heck, my wife is the only person I've found that will spend any amount of time with me and keep coming back. Butch, don't take this the wrong way, but my first thought on reading your question was that you need to find another job if you work in an place where the majority of the folks would answer a different way.
And Lance doesn't get a bye on doping because I drink coffee or gatorade. That's not comparing apples to oranges, thats comparing apples to golf carts.
Call me a fool or a fanboy, but I still love Lance and his sponsors should too. He changed cycling in the U.S. Before him, no one outside the sport give a crap about the TdF and one has since he left it. Look at the ratings. I bought and much love not one, but two Madone's because of Lance.
When I was laying in a hospital bed for three days thinking I had testicular cancer, I thought about him a lot. I wore a yellow bracelet for a long time afterward. Turned out that a had a really bad case of epididymitis, but it could have much worse and his story gave me hope.
I agree, he could be a colossal jerk. The bullying, the lawsuits. But, you take the good with the bad. Often heroes are flawed and sometimes we forget that they are just people. Often that human frailty is sad, but it makes characters in our human drama more interesting. We seem to love to build people up to then delight in tearing them down when they reflect the weaknesses in our own human nature. We thought they were better, but they are just human. Just people like us.
When I hear Lance's protestations, it reminds me of Bill Clinton, the President of these United States. How he lied to the American people and told a whopper when caught red handed. How he swore he "did not have sexual relations with that women". Or, how he debated the meaning of common words to squirm off the hook. He also called a lot of people some nasty names. In the end, it was proven he did have relations with "that women" and thought us fools to be lied to. But, I understand the lying. He had a wife and what an embarrassing scandal to show that human weakness. If I got a blowjob in the oval office from a women who was not my wife, i would probably denynit to the grave too. Through it all, in hindsight, I think Clinton was the best president of my lifetime, with the exception of the beloved Ronald Reagan.
My point is that I get the lying. And, at the end of the day, Lance is just the product of the EPO era. He didn't invent it, he didn't introduce it to the pro peloton. He was just the best and used it like all the other strong guys of that generation. They found loop holes, wiggle room and ways to beat the test. That is just what cycling was in that era. It was a level playing field and he was the best. I think that part is hard to argue.
No need to get tweaked or be a hater. It is what it is. Triathlon/Cycling are just games and the Lance scandal is theatre. Opium for the people. The hero is now the villain. Like when Hulk Hogan became a bad guy....
I think he's still lying, especially about not using PEDs in his comback tours. His new story seems to be that he did drugs from the time he was a kid through 2005 but then stopped.
I think the key here is that during his come backs testing changed. They were then looking for EPO, Out of Competition testing and the passport would have rendered his methods unusable. I think he alluded to that in the interview.
Lance supporters = moral relativism at it's best - for 10+ years he could look in the mirror in the morning and be proud of himself NOT - he sold his soul for fame & fortune and now the devil is here to collect his dues - the fact that he was the best cyclist out there only tells me he was the best cheater - IMO the character of a man defines a true champion - he was my hero for a long time but when the truth came out......
"I agree. I think Lance is a hero. I love Lance. I believe in his constantly changing narrative, which fluctuates from day-to-day, based on what is convenient and provable. Taking known PEDs and injecting himself with his own blood for years is no different than my morning coffee routine. Transforming his hotel room into a makeshift blood-transfusion center, convincing his ex-wife to distribute steroids to his teammates, bending his agent and investors over (professionally) was something everyone was doing on the Tour. Hiding his relationship with his quack doctor (Dr. Ferrari) lurking in the shadows of every race, and "donating" hush money to the UCI and hospitals to hide his lies, were honest mistakes. Destroying his marriage and countless friendships is just something that happens to all of us. No one is perfect. His personal choices should be separated from his athletic brilliance. I believe he never lied, and he has been honest since day 1. I am so glad there are people of substance and intelligence still supporting him with logical, moral reasoning. He wanted to talk to Oprah because he wanted serious journalism, which can only be found on television. (With Katie Couric, for example.) And this all has no effect on sports or America. This is a vindictive witch hunt. He was the victim. No one got hurt. His was a feel-good story, and we should focus on that. American professional sports is built on a foundation of integrity. (I also think Bernie Madoff was the best investor of the 21st century, fwiw.)"
I'm a former PRO lance fan. I thought he might have been gaming the system a bit but was probably in denial about the extent to whcih he was cheating. I still appreciate the work he has done to raise money for Cancer. However, Lance has me convinced that the entire sport of cycling is in need of repair...a large percentage of them are all cheaters...pretty awful to say, but that's how I feel. He didn't feel like he was cheating or doing anything wrong, becuase a good percentage of them were all doing it, thus making it normal. He has really tarnished the sport for years to come.
The slowtwitch thread of the girl who cheated during IMFL 2012 brings this point home for me. This girl was later disqualified. She had clearly swam 1 lap, and only ran 1 lap of the run course..As a guy who did IMFL in 2012 it makes me want to rip that finishing medal off her chest...she doesn't deserve to have that medal
Lance got way more than a finishers medal...he got wealth, fame, and much more...at the end of the day, he will still be wealthy and famous...Do you think he still has his 7 yellow jersey's hanging up in his house???
I will say, I wonder what he will do from here. Can he somehow turn this around?? unlikely...maybe he will get lucky and his neighbors house will catch fire and give him the opportunity to repeatedly run inside and save people...That's really what he needs right now..
To me Lance vilifiers are just plain naive and I believe that to kick a person when their down is wrong. We should be applauding or at least supporting his coming forth, cooperation, and rehabilitation both personally and within the sport. ...we do this for far worse social offenders....
....in the end Lance used performance enhancing drugs to compete against others who were doing the same..(not an excuse ..just a fact..and to deny that fact is disingenous and naive)....Who did he "steal" victory and money from...the other top 10 guys (and more unheralded riders) who were doing/competing the same way?...
...and then he lied and threatened to cover it up...which...I contend anyone would have done similarly....once you have cheated...you have cheated and you must cover it up...and yes you will threaten those who threaten to expose you....I'm sorry but if one of you cheated in some aspect of your life... and somebdoy accused you/threaten to expose you...you would defend yourself vociferously (and the bigger the stakes the greater the threats)....would you not?...or you would just jump up and down and fess up..admit to it?...I think not.
I am not a moral relativist...I am not condoning the fact the he Cheated...he deserved what is happening..the exposure, the criticism, the stripping of the medals..but ..I am also a pragmatist (& Libra)..who can see how this personality found himself in the predictament he did and his reactions...I am also christian who believes people deserve, a second chance & the opporunity to correct their wrongs.....to make things right....You cannot separate the Lance who cheated and won..from the Lance the fantastic competitor & the Lance who cared enough and gave to cancer survivors ...they are one and the same person...wether you like it or not
btw...Frankie Andrieu, Tyler Hamilton, Betsey Andrieu...seem to agree with me....
ummm, if he hadn't been banned he would never have come forward. He didn't do the interview out of the goodness of his heart but rather the necessity of no other options. He was tweeting very aggressive stuff against the people who were speaking the truth against him very recently. I do agree that he had many aspects of his life in which he was a good person, but his "athletic" self was seriously lacking a sense of moral character not just for his use of PEDs but more importantly his treatment of other less powerful people around him.
I'm a Libra and I'm willing to give him a second chance...just not in sanctioned sports. Let him prove himself and seek forgiveness by spending the rest of his life working on his cancer foundation or something else charitable. The problem with Lance is that his character is so flawed, he will cheat again if he thinks he can get away with it. I believe he was still lying on some points in his interview. The whole thing was designed to get a reduction in ban to 8 years effective to 2005. That's why he was still lying about 2009 and 2010 although the biopassport showed million to 1 odds that he was on EPO. The only thing that would be naive is to believe that he was clean on his comeback. Or that he was clean when he started doing triathlons. Or that he is honestly sorry about anything other than that he was caught.
Ferrari says that "Armstrong would have achieved the same level of performance without resorting to doping, also thanks to his talent which was far superior to the rivals of his era."
So what about all the Pro riders who DIDN'T cheat? No one feels sorry for them? They were probably the biggest losers in all of this. They were robbed of a chance to compete with the best because the "best" were a bunch of cheaters. They were robbed of the sponsorship opportunites, the money, the glory. It sucks for them.
I recently read an article by former pro Ciaran Power posted on my FB by another former pro (friend of mine) and this article speaks of this. Sorry I dont have the link but Im sure you can google it. It was an interesting read from the "other side" of fence.
@ Maureen - I do feel sorry for them...they were shafted by Lance and all the other cheaters. And that is exactly why cheaters need to seek redemption in another capacity.
@ Maureen - I do feel sorry for them...they were shafted by Lance and all the other cheaters. And that is exactly why cheaters need to seek redemption in another capacity.
@Paul- I think you just helped me crystallize the fundamental difference in the way we are looking at this. I would answer this in a similar, but fundamentally different way. I would personally answer like this instead:
@Maureen - I do feel sorry for them... They were shafted by approximately 50 of the Top 50 cyclists of that doping era in cycling and most likely many more who doped but still didn't make it to the upper echelon of the sport. Many of those 50 or so at the Top were eventually caught or admitted to doping, but many others were not caught and have not admitted to it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling
That is certainly unfortunate for all of those riders who were clean and never got the opportunity to make it to the top of the sport. I would add, however, that 49 of those 50 or so who who doped and did make it to the Top and the countless others who doped and never made it to the Top are currently free to carry on with their profession if they choose, but LA is expected by many to seek redemption in another capacity.
I think that anyone who was an accomplished athlete, close to going pro (and not those competing in the manner we do), would understand that there isn't a clean sport in this world. I strongly believe a large percentage of pro athletes would support lance, while all the people paying tons of money to be entertained by those athletes are up in arms about how they are being entertained. And to all those who are feeling sorry for these guys , they get to play for a living...... If not PEDs, they should have found some other way to recover well enough to beat the "cheats". The realities of any professional sport is harsh. The wa I see it, unless we have been part of it, we should temper our judgements. It is just a game! I am still inspired by Lance!!!
But those who didnt cheat cant do this for a living, because there in no money in it. You cant raise a family and pay the rent on no salary. Rider #50 (#1 non-doper) doesnt get paid like the #1 (cheater) does. And as for glory, you dont think LA has experienced the biggest glory? Did he do it all for glory? No, but it becomes a part of it when you win. Fame money glory.
Look Im a nobody in this sport, I dont claim to know 1/10 of what you all know about this. I only know what I've read for myself, listened to LA speak, read articles of former Pro's (cheats and non cheats) and friends who were in the sport (non cheats) who rode with a LOT of those guys back in the day. So take this all with a grain of salt.
Yeah that's a funny defense strategy. Can't go after me because you knew about it, mr Postal! Seems kinda desperate to me. So sticking with my prediction Lance will still spend a few months in jail.
Comments
Damn inflation. Robert Redford only offered Woody $1M for Demi.
And Lance doesn't get a bye on doping because I drink coffee or gatorade. That's not comparing apples to oranges, thats comparing apples to golf carts.
Dunno...but Henny Youngman made a pretty good living from 4 words: "Take my wife .. Please!"
For a two minute break in your hectic day, watch the master of comedic timing here (includes the famous catch phrase):
Call me a fool or a fanboy, but I still love Lance and his sponsors should too. He changed cycling in the U.S. Before him, no one outside the sport give a crap about the TdF and one has since he left it. Look at the ratings. I bought and much love not one, but two Madone's because of Lance.
When I was laying in a hospital bed for three days thinking I had testicular cancer, I thought about him a lot. I wore a yellow bracelet for a long time afterward. Turned out that a had a really bad case of epididymitis, but it could have much worse and his story gave me hope.
I agree, he could be a colossal jerk. The bullying, the lawsuits. But, you take the good with the bad. Often heroes are flawed and sometimes we forget that they are just people. Often that human frailty is sad, but it makes characters in our human drama more interesting. We seem to love to build people up to then delight in tearing them down when they reflect the weaknesses in our own human nature. We thought they were better, but they are just human. Just people like us.
When I hear Lance's protestations, it reminds me of Bill Clinton, the President of these United States. How he lied to the American people and told a whopper when caught red handed. How he swore he "did not have sexual relations with that women". Or, how he debated the meaning of common words to squirm off the hook. He also called a lot of people some nasty names. In the end, it was proven he did have relations with "that women" and thought us fools to be lied to. But, I understand the lying. He had a wife and what an embarrassing scandal to show that human weakness. If I got a blowjob in the oval office from a women who was not my wife, i would probably denynit to the grave too. Through it all, in hindsight, I think Clinton was the best president of my lifetime, with the exception of the beloved Ronald Reagan.
My point is that I get the lying. And, at the end of the day, Lance is just the product of the EPO era. He didn't invent it, he didn't introduce it to the pro peloton. He was just the best and used it like all the other strong guys of that generation. They found loop holes, wiggle room and ways to beat the test. That is just what cycling was in that era. It was a level playing field and he was the best. I think that part is hard to argue.
No need to get tweaked or be a hater. It is what it is. Triathlon/Cycling are just games and the Lance scandal is theatre. Opium for the people. The hero is now the villain. Like when Hulk Hogan became a bad guy....
Viva Le Tour! Viva the idea of the perfect Lance!
Dino - Just when I thought that dead horse was beaten all the way into the ground, and that there was nothing new to add to the argument...
"It was a level playing field and he was the best. I think that part is hard to argue." It is hard to argue this.
I'm not sure I'm ready to forgive the lawsuits - bringing former friends to financial ruin on a lie... but my opinion is beside the point.
Best argument yet I've read in support of Lance - you make a strong and cogent case.
I think the key here is that during his come backs testing changed. They were then looking for EPO, Out of Competition testing and the passport would have rendered his methods unusable. I think he alluded to that in the interview.
"I agree. I think Lance is a hero. I love Lance. I believe in his constantly changing narrative, which fluctuates from day-to-day, based on what is convenient and provable. Taking known PEDs and injecting himself with his own blood for years is no different than my morning coffee routine. Transforming his hotel room into a makeshift blood-transfusion center, convincing his ex-wife to distribute steroids to his teammates, bending his agent and investors over (professionally) was something everyone was doing on the Tour. Hiding his relationship with his quack doctor (Dr. Ferrari) lurking in the shadows of every race, and "donating" hush money to the UCI and hospitals to hide his lies, were honest mistakes. Destroying his marriage and countless friendships is just something that happens to all of us. No one is perfect. His personal choices should be separated from his athletic brilliance. I believe he never lied, and he has been honest since day 1. I am so glad there are people of substance and intelligence still supporting him with logical, moral reasoning. He wanted to talk to Oprah because he wanted serious journalism, which can only be found on television. (With Katie Couric, for example.) And this all has no effect on sports or America. This is a vindictive witch hunt. He was the victim. No one got hurt. His was a feel-good story, and we should focus on that. American professional sports is built on a foundation of integrity. (I also think Bernie Madoff was the best investor of the 21st century, fwiw.)"
- Manti Te'o
The slowtwitch thread of the girl who cheated during IMFL 2012 brings this point home for me. This girl was later disqualified. She had clearly swam 1 lap, and only ran 1 lap of the run course..As a guy who did IMFL in 2012 it makes me want to rip that finishing medal off her chest...she doesn't deserve to have that medal
Lance got way more than a finishers medal...he got wealth, fame, and much more...at the end of the day, he will still be wealthy and famous...Do you think he still has his 7 yellow jersey's hanging up in his house???
I will say, I wonder what he will do from here. Can he somehow turn this around?? unlikely...maybe he will get lucky and his neighbors house will catch fire and give him the opportunity to repeatedly run inside and save people...That's really what he needs right now..
To me Lance vilifiers are just plain naive and I believe that to kick a person when their down is wrong. We should be applauding or at least supporting his coming forth, cooperation, and rehabilitation both personally and within the sport. ...we do this for far worse social offenders....
....in the end Lance used performance enhancing drugs to compete against others who were doing the same..(not an excuse ..just a fact..and to deny that fact is disingenous and naive)....Who did he "steal" victory and money from...the other top 10 guys (and more unheralded riders) who were doing/competing the same way?...
...and then he lied and threatened to cover it up...which...I contend anyone would have done similarly....once you have cheated...you have cheated and you must cover it up...and yes you will threaten those who threaten to expose you....I'm sorry but if one of you cheated in some aspect of your life... and somebdoy accused you/threaten to expose you...you would defend yourself vociferously (and the bigger the stakes the greater the threats)....would you not?...or you would just jump up and down and fess up..admit to it?...I think not.
I am not a moral relativist...I am not condoning the fact the he Cheated...he deserved what is happening..the exposure, the criticism, the stripping of the medals..but ..I am also a pragmatist (& Libra)..who can see how this personality found himself in the predictament he did and his reactions...I am also christian who believes people deserve, a second chance & the opporunity to correct their wrongs.....to make things right....You cannot separate the Lance who cheated and won..from the Lance the fantastic competitor & the Lance who cared enough and gave to cancer survivors ...they are one and the same person...wether you like it or not
btw...Frankie Andrieu, Tyler Hamilton, Betsey Andrieu...seem to agree with me....
I'm a Libra and I'm willing to give him a second chance...just not in sanctioned sports. Let him prove himself and seek forgiveness by spending the rest of his life working on his cancer foundation or something else charitable. The problem with Lance is that his character is so flawed, he will cheat again if he thinks he can get away with it. I believe he was still lying on some points in his interview. The whole thing was designed to get a reduction in ban to 8 years effective to 2005. That's why he was still lying about 2009 and 2010 although the biopassport showed million to 1 odds that he was on EPO. The only thing that would be naive is to believe that he was clean on his comeback. Or that he was clean when he started doing triathlons. Or that he is honestly sorry about anything other than that he was caught.
Ferrari says that "Armstrong would have achieved the same level of performance without resorting to doping, also thanks to his talent which was far superior to the rivals of his era."
So move along... Nothing to see here...
So what about all the Pro riders who DIDN'T cheat? No one feels sorry for them? They were probably the biggest losers in all of this. They were robbed of a chance to compete with the best because the "best" were a bunch of cheaters. They were robbed of the sponsorship opportunites, the money, the glory. It sucks for them.
I recently read an article by former pro Ciaran Power posted on my FB by another former pro (friend of mine) and this article speaks of this. Sorry I dont have the link but Im sure you can google it. It was an interesting read from the "other side" of fence.
@Paul- I think you just helped me crystallize the fundamental difference in the way we are looking at this. I would answer this in a similar, but fundamentally different way. I would personally answer like this instead:
@Maureen - I do feel sorry for them... They were shafted by approximately 50 of the Top 50 cyclists of that doping era in cycling and most likely many more who doped but still didn't make it to the upper echelon of the sport. Many of those 50 or so at the Top were eventually caught or admitted to doping, but many others were not caught and have not admitted to it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling
That is certainly unfortunate for all of those riders who were clean and never got the opportunity to make it to the top of the sport. I would add, however, that 49 of those 50 or so who who doped and did make it to the Top and the countless others who doped and never made it to the Top are currently free to carry on with their profession if they choose, but LA is expected by many to seek redemption in another capacity.
I think that anyone who was an accomplished athlete, close to going pro (and not those competing in the manner we do), would understand that there isn't a clean sport in this world. I strongly believe a large percentage of pro athletes would support lance, while all the people paying tons of money to be entertained by those athletes are up in arms about how they are being entertained. And to all those who are feeling sorry for these guys , they get to play for a living...... If not PEDs, they should have found some other way to recover well enough to beat the "cheats". The realities of any professional sport is harsh. The wa I see it, unless we have been part of it, we should temper our judgements. It is just a game! I am still inspired by Lance!!!
@butch - well put
@paul - I appreciate your views
@maureen - the glory???
Look Im a nobody in this sport, I dont claim to know 1/10 of what you all know about this. I only know what I've read for myself, listened to LA speak, read articles of former Pro's (cheats and non cheats) and friends who were in the sport (non cheats) who rode with a LOT of those guys back in the day. So take this all with a grain of salt.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrong-exclusive-interview
So the government should have known I was on drugs.... sure good argument.
http://espn.go.com/sports/endurance/