Got 3x8' in this morning at 253, 254, 254 (KICKR on erg mode)
I had my first open marathon in mid-Dec, so while I've worked in some riding over that training plan I don't recall any time at FTP since before IMLP...and it showed this morning in my RPE. The 3' recovery wasn't enough & I needed a little more before hitting the final interval.
I didn't test and am using my last year's FTP (probably out of pride) so I need to SWAG at what my actual is today and get to building it up.
JOS is a bike focus for me as 1) it's the area I need the most improvement and 2) I've got to get ready for Blue Ridge camp
Hi all...William here coming back from the dead. Last year was one of my funnest and most frustrating years in a while. Family obligations kept me out of the ironman game, but I learned to do some bike racing...but I crashed at 35 mph in July and left a fair amount of skin on the ground. Take home lessons: (1) MIPS helmets rock; (2) If you are going to have road rash, choose some place kind of flat that doesn't bend much. Like your side. Or your thigh. Do not choose to lose hunks of skin from your knees. Very bad idea. That injury took way longer to come back from than it should have because I wasn't allowed to bend my knees repeatedly for quite a while. I was doing pretty well again in Fall until late fall I fell ill with something that gave me bronchitis. After fighting that for a month unsuccessfully on my own, I got some medical help and was told I had to go cold turkey no workouts which helped, but I'm still dealing some coughing and recovery. Long and short of it is that I have a pretty good attitude to start, but I'm out of shape, heavier than I should be, and older than I've ever been before. :-)
Reasonable goal for OS: probably ~240 FTP. Dream goal for OS: 250 W. The sad place that I tested at on Monday: 215 W.
As they say, when you're down, there's nowhere to go but up. :-)
I'm thinking of doing the Tuesday FTP sets as a Zwift race. So for today's 3 x 10 set I will sub in a WBR 4 flat lap race. I could get a 10 minute set in each of the laps.
I'm in for the whole thing now. Started with a modified Novemeber OS start as I was coming off knee surgery. First bike in the books and the run to follow today. Bike went great.
@Scott Dinhofer - So you loaded up the workout and simply pedaled, uphill, downhill and let the machine convert it for you? I might need to try that. Lowly level 10 member here. I just jumped into London and pedaled hard for 10 min and hit repeat 2 times.
I seem to never post much so will be likely updating 1-2 times per week.
I'm in better shape today compared to this time 2 years ago before my last real OS. Should be a fun few months!
Gordon - I have to be honest here, I don't see how one CAN do a 2x20 FTP test within a race.. the protocol calls for you to do it like you have a "gun to your head" to get off the bike "wanting to puke with your legs shaking," you should have no ability to do anything after that, on the bike. if you did it "within" a 54' race, unless you are were just warming up before and coasting at the end, no dice. I even think my efforts on the road course I have are suspect because I DO crawl up the 14% hill to my house afterwards.
if a 3x10' was EZ (HR will show that) then you need to get to work... what would Brady think if he saw this!!!! THAT should motivate you!
sorry if i am being a taskmaster here, but the goal is to get everyone's game and mental edge finely honed.. I have no idea if i can keep up with the bar i set this morning, but i am feeling both overwhelmed and excited by where i may get to this year IF i can keep up the efforts at this level..
Nice Graph Scott D. My first two were messy but I hit the third. The Zwift requires total concentration. These workouts are both mental and physical and require that we are fully present. This is a good skill to work on as in HIM and IM, this is very important.
@Scott Dinhofer whip away taskmaster. I hear you and I actually contemplated a full 60' FTP effort in Zwift. Unfortunately I hammered the end of both races and could not continue. Thus the 226-227 I went for, versus the 220 estimate given by Zwift. Apparently I need to shoot for something in the 235 range.
Oh and for clarification mentally the 3X10' was easy after the two 55' minute efforts while physically it was mod-hard to hard in effort maybe a bit more on the 3rd interval Definitely not OS quality hard for sure.
@Scott Dinhofer - So you loaded up the workout and simply pedaled, uphill, downhill and let the machine convert it for you?
yes Todd, that's all. loaded up the WKO, started pedaling, Zwift put me in ERG mode, and off I went... i use the down arrows at the top and bottom of biggest hill to accumulate climbing meters for my everest/ tron bike challenge. so, it looks like i am doing hill repeats, but the tension is set by the computer per the WKO, not the hill. It does assume your weight/watts and converts that to a climbing speed, so it's not the quickest climbs, but I did get in over 2000' of climbing today!
Knocked out my FTP workout this morning...more like it knocked me out. Got it done...3x10' as 1.01, .98, .98. I used TrainerRoad and might try Zwift next week. I keep my head down so much I don't think Zwift will do anything different for me.
I did the Zwift long/1:13 ftp test today. A bit disappointed with a 194 ftp which is the lowest I've ever started with in Jan. Well, guess it's time to get to work!
@Francis Picard - PLEASE let us know how your FTP that Zwift says you are holds up on the intervals, truly interested in this as I am sure others are as well. I also cancelled trainerRoad...
Pro tip for those of you trying to get the everest challenge in Zwift and then the Tron bike: do all your WKOs on a hill, use the down arrow to turn around at the top & bottom and do "repeats." remember that you will always be doing the effort chosen by the loaded workout, but you will accumulate huge climbing towards your goal!
With a 272W FTP, z4 (95%) has me to do intervals at 260W
258, 258 and 259. - sorry for the French in the screenshot
So my "guess" is that the actual FTP I will be using for the first weeks of the JOS is "accurate" at 272W. My end of last last year OS FTP was 275W, I had started at 212W. I think the Zwift races helped me keep that FTP to that level so I can start this OS almost at the same level as last year ending FTP.
Also I dont think I should expect a 65W bump this year but a 10% will bring me close to 300W @ 69ishkg.. just to @%@#% learn how to transfer this into an increasing 5hrs power curb.
First JOS FTP bike interval workout in da bank! Scott, the gorilla was making his rounds today!! Got it done though (1.0,.98, .98). Great Oogily Moogily I forgot how much fun those are (read sarcasm). Thinking my SWAG FTP is just about right, just need to get back into the swing of the trainer suckfest and fuel a bit better in preparation. All in all we'll call it a success!
After watching Coach P’s new “Injury Course,” I’m dialing down my intervals to 80% FTP and maintaining consistency while whatever is causing my sciatica comes under control. Hit all 3x10’ at 180w. Every day is an opportunity to make wise decisions to limit recovery time.
I got home from work and was able to get on my bike right away. I have been using Zwift and riding one of the flat courses when I do specific workouts. I like to ride as close to how I ride outside and shift to maintain power. Today everything felt good. The warm-up did not hint to any problems and all of the activity on the forum had me very excited to start. My last actual FTP test was 255W on November 14. I confirmed that FTP on a recent 4 lap Zwift race. So, today I was very pleased with my 3 X 10' efforts. I went 260W, 263W & 266W. My HR was a little high with a max at 174 bpm. This is a good start to the OS.
I've recently done a few races on zwift to estimate my ftp. Racing seems like a more entertaining way of estimating my ftp than a formal test. Zwift estimated my ftp at 167 and WKO4 modeled my ftp at 173 so not too far off. Today's 3X10' (274, 283, 270) went well and i have to say was mentally easier than a 4 lap race as others have mentioned. My middle interval was higher because I was chasing a KOM ( the new Leith hill). Finished with a 35' run on the dreadmill!
Also I dont think I should expect a 65W bump this year but a 10% will bring me close to 300W @ 69ishkg.. just to @%@#% learn how to transfer this into an increasing 5hrs power curb.
willing to bet that ^^this^^ was the result of learning how to test, 65 watts is a huge bump! we need to teach you to ride down hills or have you ride a flat course, that is a monstrous FTP!
@Francis Picard I agree. That increase is just getting from 60% of your potential to 90% of your potential. (I'm making those numbers up.) The good news is that you are a monster. The bad news is that it's a bit harder to go from 90-100% and harder still to go from 100% to 103% :-)
One approach you might want to consider is the following.... Focus less on increasing your FTP (which is more or less your 1-hour power) and focus on taking that 1-hour power longer and longer. Your first 4-5 week segment won't change, but instead of bumping up your FTP so much at the testing point, take the middle segment to get up to being about to do something like 3 x 20 at that unchanged FTP. I'm not as strong as you, but there was definitely a year where i got very good at doing the 20 minute test and impressed the hell out of myself by my fancy but meaningless 4.0 W/kg....it didn't translate as it should have later in the season because I had really focused mentally way too much on that part of the power curve. I had turned myself into a pretty good 10-20 minute rider instead of a better 3-5 hour rider.
To others thinking about doing tests on Zwift instead of the old fashioned way just staring at your power meter....FWIW, don't. Your power tests are for very steady riding under very reproducible conditions. Plus, a 5-6 hour ride outside requires a certain amount of mental toughness just to get through well that isn't bad to train a bit by doing a certain amount of relatively "boring" trainer riding. You need to be able to self-motivate in Ironman...only a very very few people are even really racing, and very few of them are racing on the bike.
I'm a couple days ahead getting in the first Vo2 workout 2X(9X30/20). 1.24-1.27 IF (292-300W) on the first 9 then 1.26-1.29 (296-303). Got in 20' at .85 for 60' total riding.
HR was in a better place on these intervals and things were getting in to the very hard zone.
OS workouts on Zwift are amazing! Thanks to the one who took the time and created the workouts for all of us
Thanks for the Ride On today Jorge. The "one" was @Jason Veith and he also gave me a Ride On while I was doing the workout he created for us! Sweet! Now, if I can just figure out how to do it back!!! #techchallenged
So, haven't ridden hard since IMLP, got injured running in late September and just got back to some very ez peasy riding and running in December. For a couple weeks. So yeah...back to the beginning!
Swagged my ftp pretty well and will bump it up a few watts based on my numbers from the workout in Zwift. Mad props to @Jason Veith for creating all the awesome in zwift for us all, and @Al Truscott for explaining on a thread somewhere how to get the workouts onto a mac and into Zwift. Never would have figured that one out on my own. I repeat. #techchallenged!
The bike felt pretty good considering, and the brick with my limited running of late was just a very easy (read slow) 35' on the mill. Onward!!!
I'm thinking of doing the Tuesday FTP sets as a Zwift race. So for today's 3 x 10 set I will sub in a WBR 4 flat lap race. I could get a 10 minute set in each of the laps.
Anybody else going to try this?
Im going to do exactly the same @Mark Stahlkopf: I spent a good 30' in Z4
@William Jenks - awesome to see you back here! good advice on the 5hr power, but that sounds contradictory to the OS... OS = raising Base Power, Race prep 12-20 weeks = work on 5 hr power... Also note that I am not sure that @Francis Picard was "testing" on Zwift, he's been doing a lot of racing and every now and then Zwift tells you that you have a new FTP. The fact that he validated it with strong intervals is a positive for the Zwift algorithms and a reinforcement that those that have figured out how to race hard are getting a similiar workout to intervals. To me it's a matter of looking at both WKOs to see how much TSS i got out of an hour.. the few Zwift races I have done have produced both strong TSS and AP #s
@Larry Pfeffer - how were the results? did the Peleton work hold you somewhat steady? Are you gonna get the Peleton 'mill?
@mark stahlkopf and @KARL BONNER - when you do those races, please post the following so we can compare it to interval wkos - FTP, AP for the Race & TSS for the WKO.. be curious to see what you are getting..
I DO want to get out and race too! but i feel a certain satisfaction from the mental fortitude it takes to finish an interval. I KNOW that in a race, i can back of for a second here or there, whereas in an Interval wko, I really cannot.
Tomorrow I will be attempting @Paul Curtin's "Crush Intervals" - note that if you try to do this, do NOT use a ZWIFT file, just ride in ZWIFT as if you were "touring" The key to these intervals is nailing the work effort at 1.7xFTP (try 30 seconds, if feeling brave, try 45 seconds) & taking as long as needed to recover your HR to low Zone 2 (.78 of max HR) so for me: Ftp = 245 x 1.7 = 417 Z2 HR = .78*172 = 134
@Scott: Well, obviously, carried to an extreme, you're right about being "contrary to the OS." And I wouldn't give that advice to a newbie. I mention it to one specific kind of person - someone who had great one hour pour that (from what I read) didn't translate as well as he'd like previously into his 5 hour power. And the amount of time I'm suggesting is not onerous...we have segments about a month long. I'm suggesting the second of those three segments. And the workouts shouldn't be particularly long. 3 x 20 is a hell of a workout and can be done in 90 minutes, which a lot of the Saturday rides are. My point in the suggestion is that the farther away from the point of the curve that you care about is from where you work out, the worse your test is for predictive value. Finally, here's another point about that approach: years of observation (no hard data from a study) suggest to me (and I think others) that when you can do 2 x 20 @ 100% FTP on a non-test, non-rested day without falling over and puking, you're pretty much ready to test and get some kind of bump. Since the curve is naturally falling as you go to longer times, there are two dimensions you can go to that are "mathematically equivalent" (though not really the same) to get that bump...You can either do the same workouts at higher intensity or you can do that workouts that you can barely-but-comfortably do for longer... If you can do 3 x 20 at a particular "old FTP", then you have evidence of having raised the FTP as much as you do if you can do a 20 minute test at higher wattage than before. I'm not advocating an extreme, and I'm not advocating it for anyone by any means. But if you have a demonstrated shortcoming of translating the FTP into longer workouts from a previous season, I think it's worth runnning this idea by Coach P to get some feedback. I view this a little bit like the people all of whom wanted to go "raise the roof" a few years ago, when that's only appropriate for a few....it's a reasonable option for those that have a specific issue about their power curve.
As for racing Zwift vs a "normal boring test," that's good to know about. I am not a user, but I'm acquainted with it. I got enough experience with the roadies last year to know that FTP training doesn't prepare you for the bursts that they do in races very well, and the converse is also true. (Obvioulsy there is a broad correlation of excellence, but it's not efficient to practice one to train up the other.) So my main concern about using "races" for FTP is that the irregular bursts add more uncertainty to the TSS/NP calculation and that you're training/measuring something not very IM-specific. That said, if the races are more time-trial style in terms of intensity, then if they are motivating, go for it! (For the record, last year my "road riding" didn't do anything for my FTP, but it raised the bar on my ≤3 minute intervals considerably. That's a good thing for being a better 'biker', but not necessarily that significant for IM racing.)
I hit the workout and hit the watts. Well kind of!?!? So I don’t have a laptop right now and I only have my iPad. So I did the Gordy workout on Zwift. It’s 5 minutes @ 120% 5 Times. So a little different.
another "real world example:" my weekly 2x20s between Al camp & LP for the last few years. Per your assessment, probably due for a bump, but they do have me hone in on a real FTP number. maybe it's 2-5 watts higher if a rested test?
The REAL important factor is the 5 hr power number I see in Strava's power curve. for me, it was much lower this year as a % of FTP than it was in 2016. In 2016 I had a better bike at LP by 2 minutes. my goal is to raise my 5 hr power starting in late March by doing something like @Paul Curtin's "inside out" rides. basically increasing my long bike from 2 to 3 to 4 and then 5 + hours with the last hour executed at a higher NP than the ride up to that point. A concept also introduced to me by @John Withrow
and as far as a 3x20, that is truly monstrous and should only be attempted by people named KMF man @Shaughn Simmons
Comments
Got 3x8' in this morning at 253, 254, 254 (KICKR on erg mode)
I had my first open marathon in mid-Dec, so while I've worked in some riding over that training plan I don't recall any time at FTP since before IMLP...and it showed this morning in my RPE. The 3' recovery wasn't enough & I needed a little more before hitting the final interval.
I didn't test and am using my last year's FTP (probably out of pride) so I need to SWAG at what my actual is today and get to building it up.
JOS is a bike focus for me as 1) it's the area I need the most improvement and 2) I've got to get ready for Blue Ridge camp
Dream goal for OS: 250 W.
The sad place that I tested at on Monday: 215 W.
I'm thinking of doing the Tuesday FTP sets as a Zwift race. So for today's 3 x 10 set I will sub in a WBR 4 flat lap race. I could get a 10 minute set in each of the laps.
Anybody else going to try this?
I'm in for the whole thing now. Started with a modified Novemeber OS start as I was coming off knee surgery. First bike in the books and the run to follow today. Bike went great.
@Scott Dinhofer - So you loaded up the workout and simply pedaled, uphill, downhill and let the machine convert it for you? I might need to try that. Lowly level 10 member here. I just jumped into London and pedaled hard for 10 min and hit repeat 2 times.
I seem to never post much so will be likely updating 1-2 times per week.
I'm in better shape today compared to this time 2 years ago before my last real OS. Should be a fun few months!
if a 3x10' was EZ (HR will show that) then you need to get to work... what would Brady think if he saw this!!!! THAT should motivate you!
sorry if i am being a taskmaster here, but the goal is to get everyone's game and mental edge finely honed.. I have no idea if i can keep up with the bar i set this morning, but i am feeling both overwhelmed and excited by where i may get to this year IF i can keep up the efforts at this level..
Oh and for clarification mentally the 3X10' was easy after the two 55' minute efforts while physically it was mod-hard to hard in effort maybe a bit more on the 3rd interval Definitely not OS quality hard for sure.
My pleasure!! Please let me know if you see anything that really jumps out as "JUST PLAIN WRONG!!!"
As for my Tues ride, here it is!
https://www.strava.com/activities/1348181171/overview
Going to ease into the OS, and then re-test at Wk5.
Great job everyone!
With a 272W FTP, z4 (95%) has me to do intervals at 260W
258, 258 and 259. - sorry for the French in the screenshot
So my "guess" is that the actual FTP I will be using for the first weeks of the JOS is "accurate" at 272W. My end of last last year OS FTP was 275W, I had started at 212W. I think the Zwift races helped me keep that FTP to that level so I can start this OS almost at the same level as last year ending FTP.
Also I dont think I should expect a 65W bump this year but a 10% will bring me close to 300W @ 69ishkg.. just to @%@#% learn how to transfer this into an increasing 5hrs power curb.
2018 Rattle and Hum
HR was in a better place on these intervals and things were getting in to the very hard zone.
https://www.strava.com/activities/1349496181
Swagged my ftp pretty well and will bump it up a few watts based on my numbers from the workout in Zwift. Mad props to @Jason Veith for creating all the awesome in zwift for us all, and @Al Truscott for explaining on a thread somewhere how to get the workouts onto a mac and into Zwift. Never would have figured that one out on my own. I repeat. #techchallenged!
The bike felt pretty good considering, and the brick with my limited running of late was just a very easy (read slow) 35' on the mill. Onward!!!
Also note that I am not sure that @Francis Picard was "testing" on Zwift, he's been doing a lot of racing and every now and then Zwift tells you that you have a new FTP. The fact that he validated it with strong intervals is a positive for the Zwift algorithms and a reinforcement that those that have figured out how to race hard are getting a similiar workout to intervals. To me it's a matter of looking at both WKOs to see how much TSS i got out of an hour.. the few Zwift races I have done have produced both strong TSS and AP #s
@Trish Marshall - welcome to the party!
@Larry Pfeffer - how were the results? did the Peleton work hold you somewhat steady? Are you gonna get the Peleton 'mill?
@mark stahlkopf and @KARL BONNER - when you do those races, please post the following so we can compare it to interval wkos - FTP, AP for the Race & TSS for the WKO.. be curious to see what you are getting..
I DO want to get out and race too! but i feel a certain satisfaction from the mental fortitude it takes to finish an interval. I KNOW that in a race, i can back of for a second here or there, whereas in an Interval wko, I really cannot.
Tomorrow I will be attempting @Paul Curtin's "Crush Intervals" - note that if you try to do this, do NOT use a ZWIFT file, just ride in ZWIFT as if you were "touring" The key to these intervals is nailing the work effort at 1.7xFTP (try 30 seconds, if feeling brave, try 45 seconds) & taking as long as needed to recover your HR to low Zone 2 (.78 of max HR)
so for me:
Ftp = 245 x 1.7 = 417
Z2 HR = .78*172 = 134
Ride On!
As for racing Zwift vs a "normal boring test," that's good to know about. I am not a user, but I'm acquainted with it. I got enough experience with the roadies last year to know that FTP training doesn't prepare you for the bursts that they do in races very well, and the converse is also true. (Obvioulsy there is a broad correlation of excellence, but it's not efficient to practice one to train up the other.) So my main concern about using "races" for FTP is that the irregular bursts add more uncertainty to the TSS/NP calculation and that you're training/measuring something not very IM-specific. That said, if the races are more time-trial style in terms of intensity, then if they are motivating, go for it! (For the record, last year my "road riding" didn't do anything for my FTP, but it raised the bar on my ≤3 minute intervals considerably. That's a good thing for being a better 'biker', but not necessarily that significant for IM racing.)
The REAL important factor is the 5 hr power number I see in Strava's power curve. for me, it was much lower this year as a % of FTP than it was in 2016. In 2016 I had a better bike at LP by 2 minutes. my goal is to raise my 5 hr power starting in late March by doing something like @Paul Curtin's "inside out" rides. basically increasing my long bike from 2 to 3 to 4 and then 5 + hours with the last hour executed at a higher NP than the ride up to that point. A concept also introduced to me by @John Withrow
and as far as a 3x20, that is truly monstrous and should only be attempted by people named KMF man @Shaughn Simmons