Funsies today! It's been oh so long since I've done 30/30's! I rode in zwift and found it fun and really enjoy the built in wu and cool down vs adding it myself (or more times that not, not!). I found myself getting out of the saddle to hit the watts (overachieving) then settling in to hold it, much like I do in TR or the real world. Such short sets always are spiked for me. Zwift just made it more fun when recovering!
My legs are definitely reminding me that I've not done this kind of work in a while, but I've been enjoying it and making lots of time for the roller!
I had a good (as in very challenging) VO2 workout. I did 10x30" (2') @ max effort. No Zwift; no TrainerRoad, just me and my Garmin 520 and Netflix. :-) Legs are still feeling it.
Short note about VO2 intervals, and the difficulty assessing power with the short intervals and ramp-up/down issue...this is just a personal opinion/observation of mine, but I think I am hitting the 30/30s correctly if my TOTAL Intensity Factor for a set is 0.97-1.0, while I'm trying to hit 1.2 during the work phase, and 0.6 during the recovery. (NB: this does not include the 5' or whatever between sets.) When we get to the 60" VO2 intervals, this should no longer be such an issue. Also, if the recovery intervals are shorter (say, 20" or 15"), then they should probably be easier, like 0.5-0.55 IF, to hit that magic 1.0 target.
had trainer issues this morning - now know more about solving Kickr problems than I wanted to! did my 1st session of @paul curtin style "Crush Intervals."
3x:40@410; 3x:30@405 with Full recoveries
Geez, checked out for a day and lots of threads to catch up on, thank you @JohnStark for being cap'n MoJo today!
@Phil Mills - welcome bacck, might need to order some of your latest roast!
after doing Paul Cs Crush Intervals, I am a fan, higher work effort than the 30/30s, long as you need recovery. cannot do on a program, must be on the "just ride" mode and using trainer as a "dumb trainer."
as for those doing 30/30s on Zwift, it should be no different than it was on trainer road, but I always felt those ended up being 27 sec intervals. I can't say that manual ones worked as I was trying to hit :45 & :30 on different sets, between the ramp up and the ultimate early fall off, I did no better than the computers.
@Jenniferlyn Kryvicky - I'd be a fan of bumping up quite a bit more.. in terms of HR where is the top of Z4 for you, that's where these should be increasing to by the 2nd half of the 3rd interval.
@Jenniferlyn Kryvicky I FEEL ya on the hoo-haa!! I have riden a handful of times outside since 2015 and getting on the bike yesterday was PAINFUL. My two cents - Definitely take breaks off the saddle. If you're legs don't want to stand up, hop off the trainer and do a few squats, or inversions. I did 12 weeks of IM training for NZ in 2015 ALL on the trainer.....not fun - but necessary to get to go to NZ Also, new shorts are definitely a good thing. I don't do this. I'm too cheap and have too many kits, so I just use the thickest ones I have - It would be so much better to buy new shorts - which I am doing this weekend. Cream - I come and go on this one. You need to find one that works for you. I love DZ nuts for women - and can get online and in bike stores. But find one that works for you and you'll never leave home without it. Ride On Sister! I'm only planning on 90 minutes tomorrow (and giving myself the chance to bail after 60). Hoo-Haa power!
So I did my workouts this week on the Zwift. I am hooked to a computrainer/PT hub and used the workouts. Ramp up and down was not as big of an issue as staying in the right power zone. tried to keep steady rpm but the resistance/power seemed to be all over the place. Anyone have any tips? This was not a I didn't have enough to hold the power issue. It may be an I don't have the steady pedaling skills but I think it is a hardware issue of feedback between the Zwift and the computrainer/
@Robert Sabo - I found the resistance better with a direct drive trainer than when i had a wheel based trainer, of course that's an issue with the PT hub. wish i had more to say..
@Robert Sabo- Same here. I have a Computrainer and noticed power bounced around a lot using Zwift. When I use PerfPro it seems to settle into target power a lot quicker and cleaner. I ended up just focusing on maintaining a constant cadence. I'm not calibrating the CT and using a PM in Zwift.
@Jenniferlyn Kryvicky I FEEL ya on the hoo-haa!! I have riden a handful of times outside since 2015 and getting on the bike yesterday was PAINFUL. My two cents - Definitely take breaks off the saddle. If you're legs don't want to stand up, hop off the trainer and do a few squats, or inversions. I did 12 weeks of IM training for NZ in 2015 ALL on the trainer.....not fun - but necessary to get to go to NZ Also, new shorts are definitely a good thing. I don't do this. I'm too cheap and have too many kits, so I just use the thickest ones I have - It would be so much better to buy new shorts - which I am doing this weekend. Cream - I come and go on this one. You need to find one that works for you. I love DZ nuts for women - and can get online and in bike stores. But find one that works for you and you'll never leave home without it. Ride On Sister! I'm only planning on 90 minutes tomorrow (and giving myself the chance to bail after 60). Hoo-Haa power!
I second DZ Nuts if you have saddle sores. But I would also guess that a proper bike fit would alleviate any pain in that area. I am not sure that even with months off you should have THAT much discomfort in the saddle.
@JohnStark- The picture of your TR ride from yesterday is the exact opposite of the ride I did. I would have much rathered the way yours was set up. Trying to ride z3 after doing the 30/30 SUCKED! Not sexy. I wonder why it was different? Anyone else start with the 30/30 then do z2-3? I hung on for dear life but I faded in the last 15 minutes.
Have a great day. Going to do Sundays long run today. It's a gorgeious day outside.
The 30/15 are no joke. If you look at the 30 second intervals I'm not holding steady power for the full 30 seconds. It's more like ramp up /settle in / try to hang on. Did a much better job on the second set.
@Al Truscott I believe your assessment is correct. The total avg. power of the interval set should equal your FTP.
@JohnStark- The picture of your TR ride from yesterday is the exact opposite of the ride I did. I would have much rathered the way yours was set up. Trying to ride z3 after doing the 30/30 SUCKED! Not sexy. I wonder why it was different? Anyone else start with the 30/30 then do z2-3? I hung on for dear life but I faded in the last 15 minutes.
Have a great day. Going to do Sundays long run today. It's a gorgeious day outside.
TTFN~Jacklyn
@Jacklyn Moore- I am not that smart to answer your question. Maybe one of the WSM's can help?
@Robert Sabo and @Randy Peene If you notice the power display jumping around a lot, you may need to enable “power smoothing” in Zwift. I’m at work, so I’m not sure exactly where it is in the app. It doesn’t affect the power you are outputting or your ride power numbers, just smooths the numbers that are displayed. Normally 3 seconds is the standard, but different trainers need different tweaking. Since you’re both on CompuTrainers, that could be the issue.
Thanks Alicia. It is not just the number but the response to setting the load. It will say increase power and then I over compensate and spin at >110 then when I over shoot it says lower, etc.
Forgot to add above^^^: This was my first ride on Trainer Road this year. To whoever created the workouts (Coach P??) the comments that appear on screen during the ride are a nice touch. Well done.
I was having all sorts of issues with my setup last night. None of my gadgets wanted to play nice with one another. I thought Apple TV was going to solve my laptop issues, but just created a bunch of others. Tried to get kickr, wahoo cadence all through the 4iiii hrm. Invariably one thing wouldn't work, so I literally started the ride over like 12 times. I had many that the erg on zwift (200W say) was not translating to the kickr (160w). Then the heart rate wouldn't transmit. Then no cadence (battery died). I only finally got everything to work when going through mobile app. Very frustrating. But once working I will say that the ERG mode was rapid on / off, minus a short ramp up and ramp down second or two. Maybe the intervals should be more like 33/23 or something to account for this.
@Jenniferlyn Kryvicky One year when I came in out of shape Coach Rich had me in 4 weeks of preOS. There is a 4 week 2013 preseason that you could load up and take a look at. The intensity is turned down for example on the bike week 1 has day 1 3X5 Zn4; day 2 2X8 zn2-3 and then day 3 90' zn 1-2. There are 3 runs in the plan and you could work in a 4th given these are pre-run durability.
As for the pain I don't think you should be having issues 30' in unless its from pushing too hard. I do tend to get some sit bone soreness e
@Jacklyn Moore I did get 20' of zn3 work after the 30/20's in my case. Note the remainder time to 60' is not required and is zn2 with zn3 if able. I always try to get the 60' in doing some fashion of work. If you are totally not feeling in then shut it down. My best OS' have been when I get in the as much extra zn3 work as I can handle. One year I did not do a lot of the optional/not required stuff and it showed. Lower increases and harder transition to IM plan due to the low TSS/week(my assessment). For me when I am tired I break it down to shorter intervals 2X10 (3') or 3x5(2') zn3. If you can't make it or you think you are hurting downstream workouts then just ride it in at zn2 or shut it down.
First ever OS ride with Zwift. Jury is still out but not sure I like it. WAY too much happening on the screen that is distracting. There is something about the Trainer Road blue bar and yellow squiggly line that makes me feel more focused and in control.
Maybe I am just old. Who know's?
Would love anyone else's opinion/thoughts.
@John Stark I had the same experience early November when I started up with Zwift. A LOT of data, variables, and gimmicks with no true user manual. But because I trusted the EN crew who were touting its value, I stuck with it and pushed through the connection issues and learned the lingo, keyboard, and screen. Tried workouts and races and group rides, as well as the EN OS workouts.
My advice: stick with it. You are a people person nonpareil. The value of Zwift over TR lies in the fact that there are ALWAYS others around you who are demonstrating their work out on the road, and that has a very compelling motivational and supporting value.
Here is a summary of how I think Zwift should be used in the OS. Nothing new here, Coach P and many others have said the same things:
FTP workouts: do a 3 or 4 lap race, about 30K. Should take 50-55 minutes. I do NOT ride it like a true roadie, more like a triathlete trying to do a bike race. Meaning I'll go over FTP on climbs, and try my darnedest to stay with a group otherwise, as long as I can go 0.95 or so. But I don't engage in crazy surges or breakaway attempts. My last race (Wed) was done over 53' @ a VI of 1.025 and an IF of 1.03, giving me a new FTP bump of about 4%. No way I could do that kind of work without others around me.
VO2 Workouts: use the EN workouts which have been loaded into Zwift. I think it's important to have at least one structured workout a week to really stress the top end. It's too easy in a race to both overdo the high efforts and overdo the recovery (meaning take longer to recover, or go easier in the recovery interval) compared to what is needed to build new muscle fitness. A race is too random to provide the requisite balance needed to trigger mitochondrial, capillary, and muscle fiber growth without sending you over the edge. I do these on a smart trainer in Erg mode, which FORCES me to hit my marks. I also do it on the hilliest course I can find, as when in workout mode, the hills are flattened, so I just work without any gear shifting at all. But I still get credit for the meters climbed...
Weekend rides with ENers "ABP". Again, especially in the winter, I could never get myself to work at the prescribed 60-120' @ 0.8-0.85 IF without trying to stay with my team-mates on Fantasy Island.
"Recovery Rides" Once you get hooked on Zwift, and are jonesing for more, it's OK IMO to just tootle around @ 0.55-0.66 IF and see the sights, as well as earn points to get more in game stuff. But don't overdo the efforts.
You may see others do more than ^^^. Let them be the guinea pigs about how much work to lay on during the OS, and what it's value might be come race season. I've been doing this long enough to know the trick is to do as *little* as possible while still advancing your fitness.
BTW, it goes without saying...you ain't old. I've seen you learn many new tricks; you'll like this one.
Yesterday was an extra long work day so I opted to run last night and get my VO2 workout today. Everyone has their preference for performing these workouts. Before Zwift, I did my workouts on my computrainer. I built a course with a constant incline of 1%. I liked this because I could use my gears and shift into the best pedal stress and cadence for me on that day. With Zwift, I load one of the flat courses and go. I record all of my power with my power meter. I hit the lap button on my Garmin for each lap. I have tried using the ERG mode as well as building a zwift workout. I like having the control my gears give me. for whatever reason, I don't get distracted by the riders on the screen. I do wonder what those riders are thinking when they pass me after I have completed an interval, slow pedaling gasping for air then 2 minutes later I am flying passed them. Leading into the OS, I was riding regularly and doing the OS workouts. This is kind of my second time through the OS. Today I did a VO2 workout from week 11 in the OS. 10 x 30" @ Max + 90" @ Zone 5 with 2’ Recovery after each. Total of 10 repeats. I modified it a little and took an extra 2 minutes betwwen #5 & #6. Then I lost count and only did 9 intervals. In addition to losing count, my Power meter dropped off twice and of course it was during the big power sections. However, all I can say is this workout is tough. Trying not to be "a hero to a zero" takes a lot of focus. If I truly go max for 30", I don't think I can hold my level 5 for the next 90".
Jumped into the JOS with an FTP of 289 tested on Zwift. Currently riding 4 x week for a total of 5-6hrs per week. I used TR last year during the OS, though at the time I thought it was great, for me, Zwift is a whole other level. I only turn myself inside out when riding with the local hammerheads. Now I can get it every weekend with the team! Is anyone else using the 10-12 FTP Build workouts on Zwift? Thoughts? I know we have the OS, but I only run Swift off of an iPhone.
Flipped Sunday for Saturday due to scheduling issues. Very enjoyable outdoor ride ~ 2 hours. 85% of ride in Z3+. Felt good followed by TRP run for 30 minutes.
Good ride for me on Zwift this morning. I enjoyed the discussion I just needed to weight dope as I could not keep up on the 17% grade, well even the 5% stuff with my w/kg. Pushed the 60' zn3 stuff in one block and I was cracking at the end. I've not done any riding over an hour since Lake Placid 2017 so opted out around 2 hours.
Thanks @Al Truscott I’ll have to get someone’s numbers to plug in to figure how much weight I need to subtract to stay with the group. I have to give major credit to @Jason Veith for creating the workouts. I did the FTP workout earlier this week and the ABP workout today. Perfectly written. Today’s workout left me wanting it to end after two hours, but not having to stop. Great talking/riding with everyone, especially @Jason Brandt, who was there with me to the bitter end. (Sorry I bailed on your last 10 min!)
Got on my bike and tried out my sciatic leg. Sufferfest Angels is my go-to, and said leg seemed perfectly happy during and after 4x8’ at 200w (IF=.95). Stayed on the hoods... standing was uncomfortable. Not sure what that means, but I’m going to remain in run jail for a while. I had a strong swim this morning. Aquabike is always an option, and I can’t afford to press the running. November is a looong way off.
Lots to read on this thread! Since riding outside is not an option, I rode 3 X 12'(3')@Z4 and my IF was 1.01/1.01/1.02. So I got in a good workout and even got in a strength workout in this afternoon.
@John Culberson - I am also in Run jail with a combo of plantaar fasciitis/achilles tendoniitis. So, it's just walking for now insted of running and a lot of foot exercises!
@Gordon Cherwoniak - I also estimated my FTP based on the old 20'(2')20' protocol . I'm at 3.29W/KG, which is my lowest since the OS in '14. I ended that OS with a 3.81 W/KG so there is lots of improvement to be made this year!
Lastly - I guess I am just really, really old school and don't do zwift! I just turn on the radio, my Garmin, air up the tires, grab a gatorade and knock it out. I do enjoy reading the feedback zwift provides and love the data feedback. Maybe I'll convert...
@Joe Hallatschek : If I end up in the M55-59 Aquabike at Multisport Nationals, it will be like the good 'ol days. I think we crossed paths several times while you were in San Antonio.
Thursday was 2 x 10 30/30s at 300-305 W (which is 1.40) and wasn't too difficult. This suggests to me that it's my slow twitch that's out of shape...but I haven't completely lost it. I guess that part is good. :-)
Saturday 2 hour workout, pretty much exactly as proscribed was comfortable. I've learned not to overachieve, particularly at the beginning of the OS, and particularly when I'm not in top shape.
Comments
My legs are definitely reminding me that I've not done this kind of work in a while, but I've been enjoying it and making lots of time for the roller!
did my 1st session of @paul curtin style "Crush Intervals."
3x:40@410; 3x:30@405 with Full recoveries
Geez, checked out for a day and lots of threads to catch up on, thank you @JohnStark for being cap'n MoJo today!
@Phil Mills - welcome bacck, might need to order some of your latest roast!
after doing Paul Cs Crush Intervals, I am a fan, higher work effort than the 30/30s, long as you need recovery. cannot do on a program, must be on the "just ride" mode and using trainer as a "dumb trainer."
as for those doing 30/30s on Zwift, it should be no different than it was on trainer road, but I always felt those ended up being 27 sec intervals. I can't say that manual ones worked as I was trying to hit :45 & :30 on different sets, between the ramp up and the ultimate early fall off, I did no better than the computers.
@Jenniferlyn Kryvicky - I'd be a fan of bumping up quite a bit more.. in terms of HR where is the top of Z4 for you, that's where these should be increasing to by the 2nd half of the 3rd interval.
Also, new shorts are definitely a good thing. I don't do this. I'm too cheap and have too many kits, so I just use the thickest ones I have - It would be so much better to buy new shorts - which I am doing this weekend.
Cream - I come and go on this one. You need to find one that works for you. I love DZ nuts for women - and can get online and in bike stores. But find one that works for you and you'll never leave home without it.
Ride On Sister! I'm only planning on 90 minutes tomorrow (and giving myself the chance to bail after 60). Hoo-Haa power!
So I did my workouts this week on the Zwift. I am hooked to a computrainer/PT hub and used the workouts. Ramp up and down was not as big of an issue as staying in the right power zone. tried to keep steady rpm but the resistance/power seemed to be all over the place. Anyone have any tips? This was not a I didn't have enough to hold the power issue. It may be an I don't have the steady pedaling skills but I think it is a hardware issue of feedback between the Zwift and the computrainer/
Appreciate the help.
I'm not calibrating the CT and using a PM in Zwift.
Have a great day. Going to do Sundays long run today. It's a gorgeious day outside.
TTFN~Jacklyn
The 30/15 are no joke. If you look at the 30 second intervals I'm not holding steady power for the full 30 seconds. It's more like ramp up /settle in / try to hang on. Did a much better job on the second set.
@Al Truscott I believe your assessment is correct. The total avg. power of the interval set should equal your FTP.
Hope you had a good run.
Forgot to add above^^^: This was my first ride on Trainer Road this year. To whoever created the workouts (Coach P??) the comments that appear on screen during the ride are a nice touch. Well done.
As for the pain I don't think you should be having issues 30' in unless its from pushing too hard. I do tend to get some sit bone soreness e
@Jacklyn Moore I did get 20' of zn3 work after the 30/20's in my case. Note the remainder time to 60' is not required and is zn2 with zn3 if able. I always try to get the 60' in doing some fashion of work. If you are totally not feeling in then shut it down. My best OS' have been when I get in the as much extra zn3 work as I can handle. One year I did not do a lot of the optional/not required stuff and it showed. Lower increases and harder transition to IM plan due to the low TSS/week(my assessment). For me when I am tired I break it down to shorter intervals 2X10 (3') or 3x5(2') zn3. If you can't make it or you think you are hurting downstream workouts then just ride it in at zn2 or shut it down.
My advice: stick with it. You are a people person nonpareil. The value of Zwift over TR lies in the fact that there are ALWAYS others around you who are demonstrating their work out on the road, and that has a very compelling motivational and supporting value.
Here is a summary of how I think Zwift should be used in the OS. Nothing new here, Coach P and many others have said the same things:
- FTP workouts: do a 3 or 4 lap race, about 30K. Should take 50-55 minutes. I do NOT ride it like a true roadie, more like a triathlete trying to do a bike race. Meaning I'll go over FTP on climbs, and try my darnedest to stay with a group otherwise, as long as I can go 0.95 or so. But I don't engage in crazy surges or breakaway attempts. My last race (Wed) was done over 53' @ a VI of 1.025 and an IF of 1.03, giving me a new FTP bump of about 4%. No way I could do that kind of work without others around me.
- VO2 Workouts: use the EN workouts which have been loaded into Zwift. I think it's important to have at least one structured workout a week to really stress the top end. It's too easy in a race to both overdo the high efforts and overdo the recovery (meaning take longer to recover, or go easier in the recovery interval) compared to what is needed to build new muscle fitness. A race is too random to provide the requisite balance needed to trigger mitochondrial, capillary, and muscle fiber growth without sending you over the edge. I do these on a smart trainer in Erg mode, which FORCES me to hit my marks. I also do it on the hilliest course I can find, as when in workout mode, the hills are flattened, so I just work without any gear shifting at all. But I still get credit for the meters climbed...
- Weekend rides with ENers "ABP". Again, especially in the winter, I could never get myself to work at the prescribed 60-120' @ 0.8-0.85 IF without trying to stay with my team-mates on Fantasy Island.
- "Recovery Rides" Once you get hooked on Zwift, and are jonesing for more, it's OK IMO to just tootle around @ 0.55-0.66 IF and see the sights, as well as earn points to get more in game stuff. But don't overdo the efforts.
You may see others do more than ^^^. Let them be the guinea pigs about how much work to lay on during the OS, and what it's value might be come race season. I've been doing this long enough to know the trick is to do as *little* as possible while still advancing your fitness.BTW, it goes without saying...you ain't old. I've seen you learn many new tricks; you'll like this one.
Leading into the OS, I was riding regularly and doing the OS workouts. This is kind of my second time through the OS. Today I did a VO2 workout from week 11 in the OS. 10 x 30" @ Max + 90" @ Zone 5 with 2’ Recovery after each. Total of 10 repeats. I modified it a little and took an extra 2 minutes betwwen #5 & #6. Then I lost count and only did 9 intervals. In addition to losing count, my Power meter dropped off twice and of course it was during the big power sections. However, all I can say is this workout is tough. Trying not to be "a hero to a zero" takes a lot of focus. If I truly go max for 30", I don't think I can hold my level 5 for the next 90".
https://www.strava.com/activities/1354679651
https://www.strava.com/activities/1354812440
Have a great weekend everyone!
https://www.strava.com/activities/1355237383
@John Culberson - I am also in Run jail with a combo of plantaar fasciitis/achilles tendoniitis. So, it's just walking for now insted of running and a lot of foot exercises!
@Gordon Cherwoniak - I also estimated my FTP based on the old 20'(2')20' protocol . I'm at 3.29W/KG, which is my lowest since the OS in '14. I ended that OS with a 3.81 W/KG so there is lots of improvement to be made this year!
Lastly - I guess I am just really, really old school and don't do zwift! I just turn on the radio, my Garmin, air up the tires, grab a gatorade and knock it out. I do enjoy reading the feedback zwift provides and love the data feedback. Maybe I'll convert...
Saturday 2 hour workout, pretty much exactly as proscribed was comfortable. I've learned not to overachieve, particularly at the beginning of the OS, and particularly when I'm not in top shape.
Good luck all!