Chris, thanks for keeping this rolling. 3 bikes like that is pretty solid right now. You could, technically, go either:
- Same layout, but extend the Sat ride longer (= more TSS)
OR
- move FTP bike to Tues and FTP run to Wed. Then you could make Tues / Thurs both hard rides (vs Thurs being ABP)
...but I don't want you going past 4 rides right now with the other stuff on your schedule. If we were to cut back on some swim or run we could do more...
Also I will be going on a cruise from 4/4 - 4/12 (counting travel days). IM Tx 70.3 is on 4/26. I will have access to a treadmill and spin bike on the cruise but don;t want to be a tri-loser and skip out on too much family time. What is a good cruise plan? I could try to run for 30' every day. And maybe spin for 30' one or two nights? I'll get some swim on at the beach but mostly family fun. Perhaps a 10-15 min of just swimming. Should I bring cords and try to get in 5 - 15 min sessions here and there?
Chris the swim feedback you got is epic...nothing to add there...TeamEN ROCKS!!!
A good travel plan is the early AM workout while folks are still sleeping. That's my plan anyway. I say that you plan on 45' a day of swim cords + some aerobic stuff. Your call on bike or run. Bonus if you can do one or two longer sessions closer to an hour, but no pressure there.
Alternate steady workouts with more interval type stuff (Think 1' on / 1' off in the Z4 to Z5 range).
Bonus points for shaving your legs and training in full race kit.
I'd also suggest trying to get RR #1 done before you leave so you have some perspective on where you are at...can you make that Fri/Sat switch for the weekend before you go?
Short term I haven't done a run test in along while. Also I've never been able to hit my Thursday long run paces. Zone 2 by the time I get to Thursday feels like zone 3+. I can never hit the progressive pace targets. Im just holding on for dear life after about 6 miles. I'm not sure that a 5k test is indicative of my HM and M performance. I'm thinking a 10k test might be better. I'm racing Buffalo Springs at the end of June. Can I do a 10k test next week? If so how do I modify the week?
Long term. So I've had a race and I feel that Kina is as far away as ever. I think I'm too scared to race hard. I had one bad experience at IM Texas (pre EN) and now I'm never sure if I'm going to hard. I let my HR put a cap on my last two races and I'm not sure if I needed to do that.
I'd like to do more race sim weekends. I'm also thinking of intentionally over biking by 5-10 watts just to see how it affects my run. I need to develop a feel for the ragged edge. I tried the minimalist-esk traing approach we discussed. I missed the easy to read structure of a standard plan. I also missed the ABP bike ride. I think that one is more key than I realized. How should I modify my plans to get more of a race sim feel on non-RR weekends? Run longer off the bike? Shorten my Thursday long run?
Chris, I am not worried about you being able to hit your zones in a long run as much as I am worried about you getting in enough "good hard work" and you clearly are. If you have a file to look at, that would be nice to see....worst case, you can do these longer runs at Goal Race Pace...you know what your previous race performances were, and so you can say "I ran 8:00 / miles last year, I want to run 7:50s this year" and do the work on it from that perspective.
Note, it's probably true that your vDOT is a better target for the short hard runs, so we can keep that up...let's put our smart guy hats on to SWAG your long runs without compromising a week of training.
Chris, Kona is a life-long goal...it's not a "stop buying lattes at starbucks and you'll retire rich!!!" kind of scheme. There's learning and hard work, etc. We usually race the run portion of IM / HIM with an HR target (not cap per se) as that will keep you moving at your best possible speed...if you want, you can return to the typical plan where we have the RPP rides (Race Pace Plus) where you do intervals at 15 to 20 Watts higher than planned on race day for you to get calibrated with the commensurate workload. I would also have that ABP ride on Sunday where you could dial in that effort looking only at your PM vs your HRM.
As I look at your TX 70.3 report, there were a few issues, primarily:
(1) a lack of swimming. You need that swim fitness to keep your HR down...not having it was hurtful.
(2) bike HR...I can't remember how long your gave yourself to let your HR come down at the start of the bike, but that said, riding to a target of 200 say on race day will always yield a 185, for example...something about the nature of aid stations, terrain, etc, always has that number "turn out" to be lower than we thought. I rode 50 at 245 the other day with 2 mile "autolap" on my Garmin and my NP was 234. 11 watts....poof. It was a great ride, fast, etc, so the numbers don't tell the only story.
(3) Run HR...did you run the first 3 at your BIKE HR or did you just run it? As others have noted, you should be able to run fast but on that day in the heat with your prep and peeing issues....maybe it wasn't in the cards.
I think it's worthwhile backing up to the 20,000 foot view and think about what's going to make the most substantive improvment in your year...I see:
(1) Consistent swimming, maybe some instruction here. Get you from 45:00 down to sub 40:00.
(2) Improved "pace precision" on the bike for your longer rides, plus practicing nutrition.
(3) Running long runs at a sustained challenging pace. A HIM is run at Z2/MP..can you reasonably do that?
Thank you. Here are files for a Thursday long run. I was trying to do 90' at 7:09 then push to 6:52. Instead I averaged 8:15 over the whole distance. I also included a file from a 10k run test I did this morning,Run Files.zip
So the last 5k test that I did was on 11/15!! So long ago. Either my plans didn;t align or I was injured. Back then I ran a 19:20 on a treadmill for a vDot of 52. This morning I ran a 10k test. I didn;t crush myself like I normally do. I ran a 44:23 10k. That yielded a vDot of 46. What do you recommend for me to train to?
I've always felt that the zone 2 paces I've had were too hard for long distance. I have been able to complete the hard tuesday workouts full of zone 4 goodness. I've never been able to hit the thursday zone 2 long runs. Is it ok to use the 46 vDot?
1) I agree. I wish life could give me more swim time. I've recently been able to move my swim intervals up to 150 before my form breaks down. I recently took a swimsmooth test based on discussions in the forums. My critical swim speed is 2:08/100y
2) Good point. It's just frustrating. I put out more watts this race than last and didn't go faster. There was less wind so I'm not sure.
3) I kept the bike HR +5, then pushed to bike HR + 10 and held that till 3 miles to go
Chris, I don't see HR on your run...please start tracking that...critical for you / I to note improvements and the "cost" of that run. I say the new vDOT is the way to go...let's us that (do the zones in the EN Calc) and we'll see what we get out of it.
1) The swim smooth test stuff is good...it's just going to take a lot of mental focus for you to improve that. Every swim session has to be one of your best mental efforts that week.
2) More watts only mean faster if they are in the right places. IOW if you ride up hills harder for higher watts, the speedometer barely moves...vs riding down or into the flats faster. Higher watts doesn't automatically equal a faster bike.
3) I am not sure what you mean by #3 above as my #3 was about the run.
1 during a swim workout I usually get to a point where I can no longer do the prescribed workout and maintain good form. My PR IM swim is 1:41. HIM is 41:37. Through recent consistency I've really improved my T-pace to the low 1:50s.
When I'm out of gas in a swim workout I typically first add rest time. Then when that no longer works I reduce the interval lengths. Ultimately ending up just doing sprint 50's.
Question: would you rather me do something else?
2) after my swim workouts I am trashed. Not sore much. But like my will to live is greatly diminished. I typically drink water during the workout and eat a kind bar afterwards. The drained feeling usually lasts till bed time. I swim in the afternoons after work and before dinner. Any thoughts on what to change?
#1 - drop initial set pacing by a few seconds. If your 1:45 100 time is good for 10 minutes but then goes to 1:50 and then ends up at 2:00, it's slightly too fast for a sustainable swim set. So, for the longer swim sets, dial that number back a smidge. Longer swim sets are like 200s, 300s, etc.
#2 - You need a gel 15' before the swim and you need to drink sports drink like GE or Perform. You can't workout without calories.
#3 - Factor in some rest earlier on. So if you have 20 x 100 and you know that the last 5 100s suck...and the middle 10 aren't that great...I would do 5 x 100 good...then 250 pull with buoy, then 5x100 good, 250 pull again, then one last 5 x 100. Alternating with pull will allow you to reset your position in the water / breathing, as when those fail swimming becomes exponentially harder.
Basically your form is breaking down as you fatigue to the point that you can't swim without insane cost...
Observation: After some reflection (14 hours stuck in a car will do that to you) I've realized that my bike hasn't seen the progress that my swim and run have. I'm still putting up roughly the same bike times as last year, though my FTP has improved. For both of my HIM this year, I started to really feel fatigue and trouble maintaining my NP after about 40 miles on the bike. I haven't really seen as dramatic of an effect on my race rehearsals, though I do start to feel the fatigue of the miles in the last part of the race rehearsals.
Looking back at my training, two things jump right out and smacks me in the face. 1: I'd rather run so in the past when I've had to make a choice on which workout to drop/compromise, it's been the bike. 2: I've NEVER stung out four consecutive weeks that I did both long bike workouts. I've actually struggled to string out two together.
Now that I recognize 1 I will make some behavior modifications. I'm trying to address 2 but life just keeps getting in the way and I'm not ready to take it to the next SAU level. (That will probably happen next year). So I have 2 questions for you
1) This week (week 12) is a test week for me en route to Austin 70.3. What do you think about me replacing the Tuesday FTP run with a 2X20 FTP bike? ( Last week's Wednesday bike, Long run on Thursday and long bikes on the weekend.)
2) Going forward, what about modifying Tuesday to be a 40' bike (10' WU, 3 X 8' (2') @ FTP) followed by a 1 mile z4, remainder Z2 run?
Chris, the bike is the key to it all...but you are right to be mindful of your SAUs...I think you could modify your week to look like this....
If a YES to long ride weekend, then normal week...
If NO to a long ride weekend, then do the following, which gets you three quality bikes and keeps Sunday light enough so as not to interfere....thoughts?
Mon - As planned Tues - FTP Ride (from Wed) Wed - Long Run Thu - Bonus Ride -- I prefer ABP work here in season, as in 4 x 12' @ Z3 (3') for example... Fri - As planned. Sat - As planned. Sun - FTP Run (From Wed)
Need help managing sleep!! In order for me to get in a 60' morning workout I have to get up at 3:45. (15' to get out of bed and onto the road/bike, 60' of kill'n it, 15' of contemplating my life choices aka recover). I need to be in the shower by 5:15.
Earliest I can get to bed is 9. Typically it's 9:20. So that means that if I have 4 weekday workouts in a row that's a maximum sleep of 6:45-6:25.
Now some days I've got an 80-90' workout. So that puts me at 6:15-5:55 ( I split all bike run days. And do my run at lunch)
Some times I split my 90' runs into a 60-30.
I'm on the out season plan. What is like to do is move the Monday off day to mid week. So I only string two low sleep days in a row.
Chris, can you do your FTP run at lunch vs the AM? I am thinking of something like the following, which gets you sleep on Tues AM and Thurs AM....
Mon - Early FTP bike, Lunch Run Tues - Sleep In. Lunch FTP Run. Wed - Early VO2 Bike, Lunch Run Thu - Lunch Run. Fri - Swim Day. Sat - As Planned. Sun - As Planned.
So just ran IM New Orleans and it went as expected. Little to no time in the pool = crappy swim. I used pull buoys a lot this OS to "save" my legs for the bike and run. Go read my race report. My swim was so bad. In that moment I was ready to quit the race, pull out of the rest of my races and give up on my dream of qualfying. I know what I need to do, I just don;t know how to make it fit. As I move into HIM training I will be spending more and more time in the pool.
What I wasn't ready for is how disorientring it is to jump into cold and choppy water and swim. My HR was sky high and crashing waves killed me and made me gopher... a lot.
Question: Are there drills that I can do that will simulate a lack of oxygen,wave in the face panic and calm down? I hate to ask that because I feel like I'll be watter boarding myself.
The bike and run were amazing!!!! Thanks for the OS. I did fade on the bike afer 45 miles. That makes sense as all but one of my OS bikes were less than that.
Even with a wrose ever swim performace, I PR'd my bike by 10' and my run by 2'. I didn't let that swim get me. In fact I felt that the bike and run were a reward for finishing the swim so I was happy with the swim at the time.
Chris, great report and way to make lemonade that day. Not Easy!
The swim is hard...the best thing I do is just get to MY stroke. Swimming in those conditions are hard because you are trying to go fast, swim with others, find buoys, etc...but the best way to do ALL of that, is to just swim your stroke (as that's your fastest stroke). So if there's no warm up, it's really about "knowing" what your 2-3 technique cues are that will get you to calm down and do the right work that makes you faster.
For me, it's:
- Catch Up Swimming (to stay long) - Shoulder to Chin (for rotation) - Pushing my chest into the water (for balance)
In the last few weeks of the Advanced HIM plan there is z5 work on tuesdays. I love running this fast. Love it; however, ... I'm starting to feel discomfort from the z5 Tuesdays. I think I have some scar tissue left over from a stress fracture. z3 running doesn't seem to bother it at all and z4 barely anoys it. z5 kicks its a$$ though. I ran lots and lots of miles in the OS with almost no issues. This week I've had to bag one workpiut and mitigate another one due to swelling my left foot.
I'm going to back off of the z5 work for now. Should I replace it with z4 intervals? Cut back the number of z5s? Other options?
Chris, you are right. It was my hat tip towards less volume; some quality to keep moving the needle. But in your case, not in the direction we want. I say that you plan on a simple 2 x 1 mile @ z4 replacement and we go from there. Let me know how that works for you....onwards!
Tried that. Everything was good for 6.5 miles. Then in that last 0.5 miles the ball of my left foot roared to life and demanded that I stop. I slowed down to sub 1 pace and made it home.
I think I absorbed the frequent TRP running better. With less than three weeks to race day, I'm thinking about doing more frequent, shorter and slower runs than in the advanced HIM plan. I had asolid run in New Orleans and a great bike that faded after mile 45. My swim was the worst of my life. I was ready to quit the sport for life durring the swim. In fact in my head I went over how I was going to break the news to my wife and kids and hide the fact from my co-workers. I had a plan.
As a result I've been hitting the pool 3 times a week (unless thunderstorms say otherwise).
Anyway what I'm getting at is I just want to hold on to New Orleans run fittness for now. What should I do?
Chris, it's important to remember that Race Speed is 80% execution....so we can't mix up with the hard work of training. You DEFINITELY should do TRP work...and then race as you can. We want to keep you healthy and focused on good consistency...then on race day we'll see what you can deliver.
That swim thing...I've been there. We've all been there. I am glad you are back on track...and working hard on that swim.
Remember that a good swim is one where you remain in control and don't go outside your box...not one where you crush yourself to a faster swim time. All that swimming should help you to establish a "good stroke baseline" against which you can hold your race day form accountable.
Ok so I'm at a loss. Well not really. I know that I didn't put as much as required into my swim and that's what I got out.
In Raleigh I thought that I had a chance to swim in the low 40's. I felt that way ON the swim. Then when I came out I saw 60+ on my watch. A worse swim than New Orleans where I actively plotted quiting triathlon.
In the summer I have more swim bandwidth and I will use it. I'm also going to do cords and core before each run/bike workout. I am planing to put my bike in a holding pattern. And to put my run in durability mode.
I'm on the advanced get faster plan until I start training for IM Augusta.
What do you think about me putting a 20-30' cords/core session in each workout then just doing TRP running/bike main sets?
I've read and read swim tips. I tried a swim coach. I'm just getting slower and slower on races. I've only been getting 2-4k of pool time each week. Just not enough I think I have to just become A swimmer who runs and bikes sometimes. Convert some of my 3 hour weekend bikes into trips to the YMCA for swimming.
Chris, you have a technique barrier that's really holding you back. You are fit. And working hard. But something is not clicking in the water when you race. If I told you to we were going to swim 2k in the pool...but that you had to make it 20 minutes slower without stopping on the wall...you'd have to float...back stroke...breaststroke...tread water...I think it might be impossible to do. I don't plan on trying it, but it's affecting your overall mindset and performance.
1. Get into a swim clinic. Like Total Immersion, not just a local gal / guy. Two days. Replace a race. Really work on it for many hours in a row with instant feedback so you learn how to change what's wrong.
2. Commit to 3 swims a week. I don't care if it's 20' on a Saturday pre/post ride...or Sunday for the run, etc. It's all about frequency and familiarity.
3. Dryland can help, but honestly it's not your barrier. If you have even the slightest chance of getting to the pool..you gotta try. And extra 20' swim crushes your performance on the bike (think extra 6 miles) and on the run (think extra three miles).
We CAN do this, but we have to find the opening / opportunity first!
WRT the swim workouts. I just struggle internalizing the purpose and goal of each session. Often I end up just doing the distances or just doing 100's worried about form. I wish the swim workouts looked like the bike and run workouts. Swim 5x100 z1 then swim 2X200 z2 finish with 4X50 where the first 25 is z5 and the last 25 is z1. That would make more sense to me.
What's the right priority of the aspects of a given set? If I get time/mental/aerobically constrained, what do I give up on first?
distance rest time pacing (i.e. sprint the last 50, descend, etc...) perceived effort kicking vs. using a pull-buoy Something else
Let's not make this any harder than it needs to be. Your number one priority is technique. Once you have a technique that you can replicate in open water that yields time similar to what you have in a pool time trial, then we can start worrying about swimming for speed.
So I would say for a half iron, up until week seven you should be focusing almost exclusively on technique with no individual repeat longer than 100. When you hit the final six weeks of your training, then you can start focusing more on the time but I would still do a warm-up and use rest strategically to make sure that your form is back on the same page.
If you are time constrained as you have suggested, it is always skill. I suggest you develop a static warm-up that's about 1000 yards. For me it is 500 easy swim or a build from super easy to easy. Then I break down the next 500 depending on what I want to work on: body position, hand placement, breathing, etc. I just pick one thing and that's the focus of that 500 yards. Typically it's something like 10 x 50 with the first 25 as skill/drill and the second 25 as swimming.
You might also benefit from using a snorkel or something to get you into a proper position so you can do more swimming in the right position as a reminder of how you wanted to play out. Remember, our goal is to get you swimming without the drills and the gear is close to new swimming with that stuff as possible. Better swimming, simply put, is faster swimming.
Hello again Coach. It's been a while sense we spoke on this subject. Sense then I've done only 70.3's and sprints. I still haven't broken the 5 hour mark on a HIM. Best time is around 5:20 ish.
I've been doing three HIM's a year. Starting to see some improvement in my bike and run. I can finally see a path to getting to where I need to be wrt bike/run.
Swim is still stationary. It is largely a volume problem but mostly it must be a form problem. I plan to join a masters swim program after Augusta.
I know I am not ready to start a Kona attempt. That said the three HIM a year is wearing me down. It's the constantly consumed weekends. The idea is to make 2017 the year of swim. Cords, masters programs, prioritizing swim over other workouts if I have to choose. Selecting open water sprints. Then adding one full distance race to give me something to look forward to and to practice 140.6 again.
After your Kona Line podcast I could see myself picking my full so I can practice on the corse that I will later qualify on.
I need some headspace I think. IM Augusta will be a great test as I've really been "on" for this build.
What are your thoughts? What other info do you need?
More thoughts. What about what do you think about 2017 focusing on the swim. Doing a mid year HIM to check my open water swim. Planning for 2018 Texas full as a dry run for a 2019 Kona attempt (depending on the 2018 result)
Actual Micro Question: I am in week 18 of my last HIM of the year (3 of 3, 9th over all). I have a sprint race this Sunday. (800m, 20, 5k)
I scheduled the sprint because it gives me open water time which is very rare for me to get. My race plan is to bike ride is ride at .9 - .93 IF and run my ass off.
I will use redbull on the bike. I have been incorporating that product into my training as it will be on the HIM course.
I've done several race rehearsals and HIMs so far this year. Is there anything else that I need to do after the race on Sunday? I was planning to take Saturday off.
Comments
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WUmLlmrnjEeQlH7CBCYsGBo0BIZA-w4kV_MQxJ-tBPM/edit#
- Same layout, but extend the Sat ride longer (= more TSS)
OR
- move FTP bike to Tues and FTP run to Wed. Then you could make Tues / Thurs both hard rides (vs Thurs being ABP)
...but I don't want you going past 4 rides right now with the other stuff on your schedule. If we were to cut back on some swim or run we could do more...
What say you?
http://members.endurancenation.us/Forums/tabid/57/aft/18260/Default.aspx
What do you think?
A good travel plan is the early AM workout while folks are still sleeping. That's my plan anyway. I say that you plan on 45' a day of swim cords + some aerobic stuff. Your call on bike or run. Bonus if you can do one or two longer sessions closer to an hour, but no pressure there.
Alternate steady workouts with more interval type stuff (Think 1' on / 1' off in the Z4 to Z5 range).
Bonus points for shaving your legs and training in full race kit.
I'd also suggest trying to get RR #1 done before you leave so you have some perspective on where you are at...can you make that Fri/Sat switch for the weekend before you go?
I haven't done a run test in along while. Also I've never been able to hit my Thursday long run paces. Zone 2 by the time I get to Thursday feels like zone 3+. I can never hit the progressive pace targets. Im just holding on for dear life after about 6 miles. I'm not sure that a 5k test is indicative of my HM and M performance. I'm thinking a 10k test might be better. I'm racing Buffalo Springs at the end of June. Can I do a 10k test next week? If so how do I modify the week?
Long term.
So I've had a race and I feel that Kina is as far away as ever. I think I'm too scared to race hard. I had one bad experience at IM Texas (pre EN) and now I'm never sure if I'm going to hard. I let my HR put a cap on my last two races and I'm not sure if I needed to do that.
I'd like to do more race sim weekends. I'm also thinking of intentionally over biking by 5-10 watts just to see how it affects my run. I need to develop a feel for the ragged edge. I tried the minimalist-esk traing approach we discussed. I missed the easy to read structure of a standard plan. I also missed the ABP bike ride. I think that one is more key than I realized.
How should I modify my plans to get more of a race sim feel on non-RR weekends? Run longer off the bike? Shorten my Thursday long run?
Note, it's probably true that your vDOT is a better target for the short hard runs, so we can keep that up...let's put our smart guy hats on to SWAG your long runs without compromising a week of training.
Chris, Kona is a life-long goal...it's not a "stop buying lattes at starbucks and you'll retire rich!!!" kind of scheme.
As I look at your TX 70.3 report, there were a few issues, primarily:
(1) a lack of swimming. You need that swim fitness to keep your HR down...not having it was hurtful.
(2) bike HR...I can't remember how long your gave yourself to let your HR come down at the start of the bike, but that said, riding to a target of 200 say on race day will always yield a 185, for example...something about the nature of aid stations, terrain, etc, always has that number "turn out" to be lower than we thought. I rode 50 at 245 the other day with 2 mile "autolap" on my Garmin and my NP was 234. 11 watts....poof. It was a great ride, fast, etc, so the numbers don't tell the only story.
(3) Run HR...did you run the first 3 at your BIKE HR or did you just run it? As others have noted, you should be able to run fast but on that day in the heat with your prep and peeing issues....maybe it wasn't in the cards.
I think it's worthwhile backing up to the 20,000 foot view and think about what's going to make the most substantive improvment in your year...I see:
(1) Consistent swimming, maybe some instruction here. Get you from 45:00 down to sub 40:00.
(2) Improved "pace precision" on the bike for your longer rides, plus practicing nutrition.
(3) Running long runs at a sustained challenging pace. A HIM is run at Z2/MP..can you reasonably do that?
Sorry so long...
Thank you. Here are files for a Thursday long run. I was trying to do 90' at 7:09 then push to 6:52. Instead I averaged 8:15 over the whole distance. I also included a file from a 10k run test I did this morning,Run Files.zip
So the last 5k test that I did was on 11/15!! So long ago. Either my plans didn;t align or I was injured. Back then I ran a 19:20 on a treadmill for a vDot of 52. This morning I ran a 10k test. I didn;t crush myself like I normally do. I ran a 44:23 10k. That yielded a vDot of 46. What do you recommend for me to train to?
I've always felt that the zone 2 paces I've had were too hard for long distance. I have been able to complete the hard tuesday workouts full of zone 4 goodness. I've never been able to hit the thursday zone 2 long runs. Is it ok to use the 46 vDot?
1) I agree. I wish life could give me more swim time. I've recently been able to move my swim intervals up to 150 before my form breaks down. I recently took a swimsmooth test based on discussions in the forums. My critical swim speed is 2:08/100y
2) Good point. It's just frustrating. I put out more watts this race than last and didn't go faster. There was less wind so I'm not sure.
3) I kept the bike HR +5, then pushed to bike HR + 10 and held that till 3 miles to go
1) The swim smooth test stuff is good...it's just going to take a lot of mental focus for you to improve that. Every swim session has to be one of your best mental efforts that week.
2) More watts only mean faster if they are in the right places. IOW if you ride up hills harder for higher watts, the speedometer barely moves...vs riding down or into the flats faster. Higher watts doesn't automatically equal a faster bike.
3) I am not sure what you mean by #3 above as my #3 was about the run.
1 during a swim workout I usually get to a point where I can no longer do the prescribed workout and maintain good form. My PR IM swim is 1:41. HIM is 41:37. Through recent consistency I've really improved my T-pace to the low 1:50s.
When I'm out of gas in a swim workout I typically first add rest time. Then when that no longer works I reduce the interval lengths. Ultimately ending up just doing sprint 50's.
Question: would you rather me do something else?
2) after my swim workouts I am trashed. Not sore much. But like my will to live is greatly diminished. I typically drink water during the workout and eat a kind bar afterwards. The drained feeling usually lasts till bed time. I swim in the afternoons after work and before dinner. Any thoughts on what to change?
#1 - drop initial set pacing by a few seconds. If your 1:45 100 time is good for 10 minutes but then goes to 1:50 and then ends up at 2:00, it's slightly too fast for a sustainable swim set. So, for the longer swim sets, dial that number back a smidge. Longer swim sets are like 200s, 300s, etc.
#2 - You need a gel 15' before the swim and you need to drink sports drink like GE or Perform. You can't workout without calories.
#3 - Factor in some rest earlier on. So if you have 20 x 100 and you know that the last 5 100s suck...and the middle 10 aren't that great...I would do 5 x 100 good...then 250 pull with buoy, then 5x100 good, 250 pull again, then one last 5 x 100. Alternating with pull will allow you to reset your position in the water / breathing, as when those fail swimming becomes exponentially harder.
Basically your form is breaking down as you fatigue to the point that you can't swim without insane cost...
Let me know what you think!
I'll start gelling pre-swim and let you know.
Looking back at my training, two things jump right out and smacks me in the face.
1: I'd rather run so in the past when I've had to make a choice on which workout to drop/compromise, it's been the bike.
2: I've NEVER stung out four consecutive weeks that I did both long bike workouts. I've actually struggled to string out two together.
Now that I recognize 1 I will make some behavior modifications. I'm trying to address 2 but life just keeps getting in the way and I'm not ready to take it to the next SAU level. (That will probably happen next year). So I have 2 questions for you
1) This week (week 12) is a test week for me en route to Austin 70.3. What do you think about me replacing the Tuesday FTP run with a 2X20 FTP bike? ( Last week's Wednesday bike, Long run on Thursday and long bikes on the weekend.)
2) Going forward, what about modifying Tuesday to be a 40' bike (10' WU, 3 X 8' (2') @ FTP) followed by a 1 mile z4, remainder Z2 run?
If a YES to long ride weekend, then normal week...
If NO to a long ride weekend, then do the following, which gets you three quality bikes and keeps Sunday light enough so as not to interfere....thoughts?
Mon - As planned
Tues - FTP Ride (from Wed)
Wed - Long Run
Thu - Bonus Ride -- I prefer ABP work here in season, as in 4 x 12' @ Z3 (3') for example...
Fri - As planned.
Sat - As planned.
Sun - FTP Run (From Wed)
Earliest I can get to bed is 9. Typically it's 9:20. So that means that if I have 4 weekday workouts in a row that's a maximum sleep of 6:45-6:25.
Now some days I've got an 80-90' workout. So that puts me at 6:15-5:55 ( I split all bike run days. And do my run at lunch)
Some times I split my 90' runs into a 60-30.
I'm on the out season plan. What is like to do is move the Monday off day to mid week. So I only string two low sleep days in a row.
How should I do this?
Mon - Early FTP bike, Lunch Run
Tues - Sleep In. Lunch FTP Run.
Wed - Early VO2 Bike, Lunch Run
Thu - Lunch Run.
Fri - Swim Day.
Sat - As Planned.
Sun - As Planned.
Little to no time in the pool = crappy swim. I used pull buoys a lot this OS to "save" my legs for the bike and run. Go read my race report. My swim was so bad. In that moment I was ready to quit the race, pull out of the rest of my races and give up on my dream of qualfying. I know what I need to do, I just don;t know how to make it fit. As I move into HIM training I will be spending more and more time in the pool.
What I wasn't ready for is how disorientring it is to jump into cold and choppy water and swim. My HR was sky high and crashing waves killed me and made me gopher... a lot.
Question: Are there drills that I can do that will simulate a lack of oxygen,wave in the face panic and calm down? I hate to ask that because I feel like I'll be watter boarding myself.
The bike and run were amazing!!!! Thanks for the OS. I did fade on the bike afer 45 miles. That makes sense as all but one of my OS bikes were less than that.
Even with a wrose ever swim performace, I PR'd my bike by 10' and my run by 2'. I didn't let that swim get me. In fact I felt that the bike and run were a reward for finishing the swim so I was happy with the swim at the time.
You found the phrase that I was looking for earlier when describing how I felt at times being in that chop....water boarded!! ??
glad you guys made it home safe and sound !
??
The swim is hard...the best thing I do is just get to MY stroke. Swimming in those conditions are hard because you are trying to go fast, swim with others, find buoys, etc...but the best way to do ALL of that, is to just swim your stroke (as that's your fastest stroke). So if there's no warm up, it's really about "knowing" what your 2-3 technique cues are that will get you to calm down and do the right work that makes you faster.
For me, it's:
- Catch Up Swimming (to stay long)
- Shoulder to Chin (for rotation)
- Pushing my chest into the water (for balance)
I'm starting to feel discomfort from the z5 Tuesdays. I think I have some scar tissue left over from a stress fracture. z3 running doesn't seem to bother it at all and z4 barely anoys it. z5 kicks its a$$ though. I ran lots and lots of miles in the OS with almost no issues. This week I've had to bag one workpiut and mitigate another one due to swelling my left foot.
I'm going to back off of the z5 work for now. Should I replace it with z4 intervals? Cut back the number of z5s? Other options?
~ Coach P
I think I absorbed the frequent TRP running better. With less than three weeks to race day, I'm thinking about doing more frequent, shorter and slower runs than in the advanced HIM plan. I had asolid run in New Orleans and a great bike that faded after mile 45. My swim was the worst of my life. I was ready to quit the sport for life durring the swim. In fact in my head I went over how I was going to break the news to my wife and kids and hide the fact from my co-workers. I had a plan.
As a result I've been hitting the pool 3 times a week (unless thunderstorms say otherwise).
Anyway what I'm getting at is I just want to hold on to New Orleans run fittness for now. What should I do?
That swim thing...I've been there. We've all been there. I am glad you are back on track...and working hard on that swim.
Remember that a good swim is one where you remain in control and don't go outside your box...not one where you crush yourself to a faster swim time. All that swimming should help you to establish a "good stroke baseline" against which you can hold your race day form accountable.
Please let me know how else I can help!
~ Coach P
In Raleigh I thought that I had a chance to swim in the low 40's. I felt that way ON the swim. Then when I came out I saw 60+ on my watch. A worse swim than New Orleans where I actively plotted quiting triathlon.
In the summer I have more swim bandwidth and I will use it. I'm also going to do cords and core before each run/bike workout. I am planing to put my bike in a holding pattern. And to put my run in durability mode.
I'm on the advanced get faster plan until I start training for IM Augusta.
What do you think about me putting a 20-30' cords/core session in each workout then just doing TRP running/bike main sets?
I've read and read swim tips. I tried a swim coach. I'm just getting slower and slower on races. I've only been getting 2-4k of pool time each week. Just not enough I think I have to just become
A swimmer who runs and bikes sometimes. Convert some of my 3 hour weekend bikes into trips to the YMCA for swimming.
Thoughts?
1. Get into a swim clinic. Like Total Immersion, not just a local gal / guy. Two days. Replace a race. Really work on it for many hours in a row with instant feedback so you learn how to change what's wrong.
2. Commit to 3 swims a week. I don't care if it's 20' on a Saturday pre/post ride...or Sunday for the run, etc. It's all about frequency and familiarity.
3. Dryland can help, but honestly it's not your barrier. If you have even the slightest chance of getting to the pool..you gotta try. And extra 20' swim crushes your performance on the bike (think extra 6 miles) and on the run (think extra three miles).
We CAN do this, but we have to find the opening / opportunity first!
~ Coach P
WRT the swim workouts. I just struggle internalizing the purpose and goal of each session. Often I end up just doing the distances or just doing 100's worried about form. I wish the swim workouts looked like the bike and run workouts. Swim 5x100 z1 then swim 2X200 z2 finish with 4X50 where the first 25 is z5 and the last 25 is z1. That would make more sense to me.
What's the right priority of the aspects of a given set? If I get time/mental/aerobically constrained, what do I give up on first?
distance
rest time
pacing (i.e. sprint the last 50, descend, etc...)
perceived effort
kicking vs. using a pull-buoy
Something else
Let's not make this any harder than it needs to be. Your number one priority is technique. Once you have a technique that you can replicate in open water that yields time similar to what you have in a pool time trial, then we can start worrying about swimming for speed.
So I would say for a half iron, up until week seven you should be focusing almost exclusively on technique with no individual repeat longer than 100. When you hit the final six weeks of your training, then you can start focusing more on the time but I would still do a warm-up and use rest strategically to make sure that your form is back on the same page.
If you are time constrained as you have suggested, it is always skill. I suggest you develop a static warm-up that's about 1000 yards. For me it is 500 easy swim or a build from super easy to easy. Then I break down the next 500 depending on what I want to work on: body position, hand placement, breathing, etc. I just pick one thing and that's the focus of that 500 yards. Typically it's something like 10 x 50 with the first 25 as skill/drill and the second 25 as swimming.
You might also benefit from using a snorkel or something to get you into a proper position so you can do more swimming in the right position as a reminder of how you wanted to play out. Remember, our goal is to get you swimming without the drills and the gear is close to new swimming with that stuff as possible. Better swimming, simply put, is faster swimming.
Hello again Coach. It's been a while sense we spoke on this subject. Sense then I've done only 70.3's and sprints. I still haven't broken the 5 hour mark on a HIM. Best time is around 5:20 ish.
I've been doing three HIM's a year. Starting to see some improvement in my bike and run. I can finally see a path to getting to where I need to be wrt bike/run.
Swim is still stationary. It is largely a volume problem but mostly it must be a form problem. I plan to join a masters swim program after Augusta.
I know I am not ready to start a Kona attempt. That said the three HIM a year is wearing me down. It's the constantly consumed weekends. The idea is to make 2017 the year of swim. Cords, masters programs, prioritizing swim over other workouts if I have to choose. Selecting open water sprints. Then adding one full distance race to give me something to look forward to and to practice 140.6 again.
After your Kona Line podcast I could see myself picking my full so I can practice on the corse that I will later qualify on.
I need some headspace I think. IM Augusta will be a great test as I've really been "on" for this build.
What are your thoughts? What other info do you need?
More thoughts. What about what do you think about 2017 focusing on the swim. Doing a mid year HIM to check my open water swim. Planning for 2018 Texas full as a dry run for a 2019 Kona attempt (depending on the 2018 result)
I am in week 18 of my last HIM of the year (3 of 3, 9th over all). I have a sprint race this Sunday. (800m, 20, 5k)
I scheduled the sprint because it gives me open water time which is very rare for me to get. My race plan is to bike ride is ride at .9 - .93 IF and run my ass off.
I will use redbull on the bike. I have been incorporating that product into my training as it will be on the HIM course.
I've done several race rehearsals and HIMs so far this year. Is there anything else that I need to do after the race on Sunday? I was planning to take Saturday off.