@Derrek Sanks - Ok, thanks for checking in....you are in an interesting place with your fitness.
But first, yes to the normal week, sounds good with Sunday ABP on the course, but honestly you could RR there and I would be ok with it. Whichever you think will be more beneficial!!
So here's the deal. You are fitter. And faster. But you are tired, so it's hard to go fast. Even though you are weak, 2017 Derrek is stronger than 2016 Derrek and as a result, you are faster. But not as fast as you could be.
When I look back at TP, you have been stacking up good work. First the solid run weeks, then you dialed that back (correctly!) to make room for some epic biking. But you are shelled.
So you are 3.5-ish weeks...I say that you dial back this week as follows:
Only one workout a day.
8 hours of sleep (or in bed) a night.
Sunday is Race Simulation pacing vs ABP.
Moving forward, you:
Take Mondays OFF.
Swim as much as you want.
No overachieving on the run.
If we get this right, you'll recover a bit more this week and get stronger into the final weeks...but if your knees are bugging you then you know you pushed a bit too much!
Thanks for the prompt response Coach. I'll implement your suggestions, especially the 8 hrs sleep. Below I laid out the rest of this week. Next week I'll follow the plan, with no crushing the runs but focusing on the final race rehearsal.
This morning I did the FTP Bike and it went better than expected. No knee issues. Results were 8'@.98, 12'@.99 and 20'@.95. AVG HR for each interval was in a good place compared to my OS FTP sets.
I've been foam rolling and using the Air Relax. I have an ART and sports massage appointment tomorrow and will schedule another the Monday or Tuesday of race week.
This week Monday Swim Tuesday Swim/VO2 Run Wed FTP Bike Thursday RR Run Friday RR Swim / Travel in the PM Sat TRP Run 50-60' ??? Picking up daughter from college/ Travel back home Sunday RR Bike then 20' Brick Run
Again, thanks for your guidance...very helpful and a confidence booster.
Coach, here's any update since my last post. The ART/Massage went well. Had TENS applied to my lower quads/knee and found several very tight muscles (hamstrings/glute medius, ITB) that I'm continuing to work on. I have another appt the Monday of race week.
RR Run went very well hitting my paces. Being will rested helps and cooler weather. https://www.strava.com/activities/994004030 RR Swim as planned with no other workouts on Friday. Saturday, no workouts. Sunday RR bike on the Eagleman course and 6 mile brick run at Z2-Z3 pace. The lower quads on my left knee, just above the knee cap started bothering me after ~20 miles causing me to back off the power a bid. Also, I had some lower back pain, which I'm guessing is due to lack of long rides outside on the TT bike (2.5 hr on the trainer isn't the same). This usually goes away after a few more rides. After mile 30 I had 10-13MPH head winds most of the remaining ride. Otherwise it was good RR. My quads didn't bother me on the run. Bike: https://www.strava.com/activities/999015508 Run: https://www.strava.com/activities/999186201
Not sure what to do about my lower quads. For this week, do you think I should just do the Wednesday ride as a Z2 ride and should I do the full Race Rehearsal this Saturday?
@Derrek Sanks - thank you for the kind words estimation point you are doing some great work, so it's a pleasure to help you out. I'm very curious to hear about this issue with your lower quad win cycling. Is it when you're like it's the bottom of the pedal stroke? Or is it more of a"knee at the top of the pedal stroke" position issue? Sometimes the muscle is for stability, other times it's for power so I need to know where the situation arises. Either way I think the self-care is the most important way to go.
While the headwind is apparent on your file, I see that you kind of fell off a bit in terms of consistency, which leads me to believe that nutrition may also be a problem. Be sure to take a minute and reflect back on what you ate and drank and what changes you can make to improve. As you know, Eagleman is notoriously hot and there is no room for nutritional mistakes!
I say yes to Z2 this Wed and Sat as RR (sunday as rest). Really focus on better nutrition and a better second half. Maybe do a few planks, etc, and some light stretching of the hammies this week in prep for the aero bar time!
I was testing out a new nutrition plan. I've been using Inifit custom blend the last 3 three years. For this RR, I used PowerBar Gels (1 every 40') and water. I might have been light on calories. I didn't like dealing with the packets. This weekend I plan to try Gatorade Endurance and supplement with water depending on the temps. I used GE throughout OS and don't have any issues with it. I also think some of the reason for the fade, was knee and back pain.
The knee pain is at the top of the pedal stroke, pushing down phase of the pedal stroke. If I squat (like to sit down), that causes pain and when I stand up from the sitting position. The cause was from the 2 day 200 mile/20,000 ft ride I did May 5/6. It went away the middle of last week but came back Sunday. The pain is in the lower part of the vastus medialis oblique/VMO quad muscle, closest to the knee cap. I'm using athletes treating athletes for the self-care.
@Derrek Sanks - I think you should be doing the Gatorade and durance plus the gels. Water plus Joes is an old wives tale, don't fall for it. Let me know how it goes TRI and both of those… You really shouldn't need water.
Is it possible that the required pain came from a lot of locate into work? Were you under geared for those climbs? If so it may be as simple as keeping your cadence up during his ride so you're happy. The fact that you can I feel the pain on the day-to-day basis tells me that you tweeted pretty good. If you aren't already, consider going to get some a RT or dry needling to keep the improvement on the fast track.
@Coach Patrick, I'll use GE and gels for Saturday's race rehearsal. Yeah, I always heard it was best to take gels with water.
My gearing was compact cranks (50/34) and a 11-28 cassette. In hindsight, I'm thinking the cause might have come from a lack of specificity of training for many 1-3 mile climbs at 4-9% over 100 miles. I didn't do any hill specific training rides. My only preparation came from the OS and GF training on the trainer. This had me fit for the distance as I never cramped and was never limited by my cardio system (e.g. tired). My only limiter was the pain around my knees which came the second day.
Update on the pain...this is strange. After the RR Ride Sunday, the pain lasted all of Monday. Tuesday is was 99% gone. Today/Wednesday, completely gone and I did a 70' Z2 ride with a few 60" Z4 efforts with no pain. I agree that a higher cadence (92 - 100) will keep the knees happy. I'm getting a bike fit check up tomorrow to make sure nothing has changed.
@Coach Patrick The bike fit check-up went well. He put a shim under my left cleat to help stabilize/align my knee and raised my seat about 3 mm. It was border-line on the low side and said it would give my knees a little relief. He also said my flat feet could be a contributing factor because in the power phase of the pedal stroke arches flatten out which might be causing a slight rotation/twist in my tibia impacting my knee. He recommended insoles to support my arches if things didn't improve after Eagleman. We didn't want to make any major changes a couple weeks before the race.
I'll let you know how Race Rehearsal goes Saturday.
@Derrek Sanks - ok I like the "micro" changes. Will be interesting to see if you notice anything different on the ride. Of course RR is so different than an FTP ride, but still.
Id ask your teammates about the flat feet thing...that might yield some interesting stuff. Have a great ride!
@Coach Patrick, the ride went better than expected. There was slight pain above my left knee that started around the 2:10 mark into the ride. I didn't notice any differences from the micro adjustments...my fitter said I probably wouldn't notice a difference. Here's my ride, https://www.strava.com/activities/1008298015. I'm guessing it's an overuse issue that's slowly repairing itself. Hopefully in 2 weeks I'll be good to go. What do you think about just following the rest of the HIM plan and ease up if I feel any sign of the pain?
@Coach Patrick - The GE is a go, plus one PowerBar Gel per hour. That gets me 290 cals per hour. I'm also supplementing this with one S!CAP per hour, which puts me at 1,140 mg of sodium/hour. I'm anticipating a warm day (low to mid-80s). I'm implementing the one full day of rest, with extra sleep.
Also, the Wednesday FTP ride (on the trainer) went very well (.98 - 1.01) on the intervals and no pain around the knees!
Good phone chat. Thanks for the take-aways! They were well needed. As mentioned, I'm looking at IM Atlantic City Sept 17 and IM Louisville Oct 15. Do you think these races are too close and what do you think would be negatively impacted (if anything) at IM Louisville from racing 70.3 AC 4 week prior? Also, what is your recommendation regarding TSR with these two races.
@Coach Patrick, see above ^^^^. I decided on a local 70.3 (Sep 9th) and I'm signed up for IMLOU. I also submitted a TSR. I can cancel the TSR if you prefer to lay out the training plans here.
@Derrek Sanks - Here's your updated Season Plan, as promised. This is where you'll return to post all your "coach" questions as responses; I'll see them and reply. This first post is my best outline of how to proceed with your races, but you can ask any / all questions you want.
As you'll see in this forum, I handle all manner of edits and changes. So post away, know that I reply here usually M/W/F each week.
Power User Tip: Click the Star icon by the Title of this thread to subscribe, and you'll get email updates when I do reply.
Your Races
09/09/2017 Patriot Half (B)
10/15/2017 Ironman Louisville (A)
Your Season Update
These are your recommended training plans, including the date you should start each one (sometimes you won’t complete a full plan but transition to another one). You can change your plans on the Training Plan page by clicking the Move / Change button. Learn more about each plan on the Training Plan Central Page.
Last updated by Coach on 07/11/2017
On 7/10 Load the Advanced 2017 EN*Full, Minimalist, 12 Weeks to end on 10/16/2017
Coach Notes
I think the best course of action for you is to load up the training plan to Focus on Louisville. You have already had a long season and a solid build up to Eagleman. Now as we begin to lengthen your training, we can incorporate Patriot along the way.
You have approximately 14 weeks to go, so there is flexibility in your training. Normally I would encourage people to get in some extra long riding in the next two weekends before your training becomes serious. But I want to be very cautious about your knee. I really recommend that you keep it on as flat a course as possible.
When you are ready to integrate Patriot, here is the resource page on how you can insert a 70.3 into your Ironman build.
Thanks! Copy on the plan. One question, any specific reason for the minimalist plan vice the regular IM plan? Just wondering...I don't have a preference. Thanks.
Also, I loaded up the plan and I'm on week -1 of 12. What should I be doing the next two weeks? I had just started week 3 of Bike Focus...should I continue until week 1 of the IM Min Plan?
@Derrek Sanks - I was suggesting the minimalist plan because of all the fatigue you've heard already this season. I'm not sure how much "more" work will help you at this point. Maybe go back to your training logs and compared the work you've done this year with the work you've done last year to see where you're at? My guess is you're at or above past levels. At least your body is pushing back.
I support you no matter what plan you choose, but that is my preference.
I totally forgot that minimalist plan is just 12 weeks, so yes I suggest you plan on closing out the bike focus plan for now. Maybe check out that training log, and let me know what you think!
You must be psychic!
As you suggested, I reviewed my training log in Training Peaks and did a comparison of my training load between
Oct 2015 to Jun 2016 and Oct 16 to Jun 17.Bottom line, I agree with doing the minimalist plan...I couldn’t believe I’ve biked so much more this year than last.Read on for the year to year bike and run numbers. Thanks for your insight!
Bike Miles 1 Oct 15 – 30 Jun 16: 1,243 1 Oct 16 – 30 Jun 17: 2,792 Delta: 1,549 mile increase
Bike hours Mins 1 Oct 15 – 30 Jun 16: 121 hrs 33 mins 1 Oct 16 – 30 Jun 17: 172 hrs 06 mins Delta: 50 hrs 33 min increase
Bike Total TSS / Avg Weekly TSS 1 Oct 15 – 30 Jun 16: 7,808 / 203 1 Oct 16 – 30 Jun 17: 10,793 / 270 Delta: 2,985 increase / 67 increase
Run Miles 1 Oct 15 – 30 Jun 16: 1,363 1 Oct 16 – 30 Jun 17: 896 Delta: 467 mile decrease Run hours Mins 1 Oct 15 – 30 Jun 16: 178 hrs 16 mins 1 Oct 16 – 30 Jun 17: 115 hrs 37 mins Delta: 62 hrs 39 min decrease Run Total TSS / Avg Weekly TSS 1 Oct 15 – 30 Jun 16: 14,769 / 375 1 Oct 16 – 30 Jun 17: 9,667 / 242 Delta: 5,102 decrease / 133 decrease
@Derrek Sanks - so you are averaging about 80 more miles a week on the bike and the 15 less miles on the run. Certainly not a bad trade-off, but from the total training time perspective a significant increase for the bike.
Remember that the cycling is a complementary activity for running. So you can bike more and still run well / have consistent fitness on the run. Perhaps not super speedy, but certainly good enough for our sport. Looking at how you have reallocated your time between the two seasons, I think the minimalist plan is the best call.
To put it another way, it will be nice to get you back to a more balance program for we can allow your run to shine a little bit more. You have certainly done all the hard work on the bike required to be successful in your final push of training! Keep me posted on your progress.
I'm in Week 1 of the Minimalist plan and I see there's a Big Tri Day (swim 1 hr/bike 4 hr/run 1 hr) this Saturday and Sunday is a split long run of 60' and 45'). And there's another Big Tri Day in week 3. I just want to make sure this is correct. Also, wondering how important the Big Tri day is in week 1 as it will make for a long day and burn up some SAUs, that can be saved for later. :-) If it's not that important, I'd like to move the swim to Friday and do the bike/run Saturday, if you concur.
Comments
But first, yes to the normal week, sounds good with Sunday ABP on the course, but honestly you could RR there and I would be ok with it. Whichever you think will be more beneficial!!
So here's the deal. You are fitter. And faster. But you are tired, so it's hard to go fast. Even though you are weak, 2017 Derrek is stronger than 2016 Derrek and as a result, you are faster. But not as fast as you could be.
When I look back at TP, you have been stacking up good work. First the solid run weeks, then you dialed that back (correctly!) to make room for some epic biking. But you are shelled.
So you are 3.5-ish weeks...I say that you dial back this week as follows:
- Only one workout a day.
- 8 hours of sleep (or in bed) a night.
- Sunday is Race Simulation pacing vs ABP.
Moving forward, you:- Take Mondays OFF.
- Swim as much as you want.
- No overachieving on the run.
If we get this right, you'll recover a bit more this week and get stronger into the final weeks...but if your knees are bugging you then you know you pushed a bit too much!Ps - are you getting any body work done or ART?
Thanks for the prompt response Coach. I'll implement your suggestions, especially the 8 hrs sleep. Below I laid out the rest of this week. Next week I'll follow the plan, with no crushing the runs but focusing on the final race rehearsal.
This morning I did the FTP Bike and it went better than expected. No knee issues. Results were 8'@.98, 12'@.99 and 20'@.95. AVG HR for each interval was in a good place compared to my OS FTP sets.
I've been foam rolling and using the Air Relax. I have an ART and sports massage appointment tomorrow and will schedule another the Monday or Tuesday of race week.
This week
Monday Swim
Tuesday Swim/VO2 Run
Wed FTP Bike
Thursday RR Run
Friday RR Swim / Travel in the PM
Sat TRP Run 50-60' ??? Picking up daughter from college/ Travel back home
Sunday RR Bike then 20' Brick Run
Again, thanks for your guidance...very helpful and a confidence booster.
RR Run went very well hitting my paces. Being will rested helps and cooler weather. https://www.strava.com/activities/994004030
RR Swim as planned with no other workouts on Friday. Saturday, no workouts. Sunday RR bike on the Eagleman course and 6 mile brick run at Z2-Z3 pace. The lower quads on my left knee, just above the knee cap started bothering me after ~20 miles causing me to back off the power a bid. Also, I had some lower back pain, which I'm guessing is due to lack of long rides outside on the TT bike (2.5 hr on the trainer isn't the same). This usually goes away after a few more rides. After mile 30 I had 10-13MPH head winds most of the remaining ride. Otherwise it was good RR. My quads didn't bother me on the run. Bike: https://www.strava.com/activities/999015508 Run: https://www.strava.com/activities/999186201
Not sure what to do about my lower quads. For this week, do you think I should just do the Wednesday ride as a Z2 ride and should I do the full Race Rehearsal this Saturday?
Thanks,
Derrek
While the headwind is apparent on your file, I see that you kind of fell off a bit in terms of consistency, which leads me to believe that nutrition may also be a problem. Be sure to take a minute and reflect back on what you ate and drank and what changes you can make to improve. As you know, Eagleman is notoriously hot and there is no room for nutritional mistakes!
I say yes to Z2 this Wed and Sat as RR (sunday as rest). Really focus on better nutrition and a better second half. Maybe do a few planks, etc, and some light stretching of the hammies this week in prep for the aero bar time!
~ Coach P
I was testing out a new nutrition plan. I've been using Inifit custom blend the last 3 three years. For this RR, I used PowerBar Gels (1 every 40') and water. I might have been light on calories. I didn't like dealing with the packets. This weekend I plan to try Gatorade Endurance and supplement with water depending on the temps. I used GE throughout OS and don't have any issues with it. I also think some of the reason for the fade, was knee and back pain.
The knee pain is at the top of the pedal stroke, pushing down phase of the pedal stroke. If I squat (like to sit down), that causes pain and when I stand up from the sitting position. The cause was from the 2 day 200 mile/20,000 ft ride I did May 5/6. It went away the middle of last week but came back Sunday. The pain is in the lower part of the vastus medialis oblique/VMO quad muscle, closest to the knee cap. I'm using athletes treating athletes for the self-care.
Thanks!
Derrek
@Coach Patrick, I'll use GE and gels for Saturday's race rehearsal. Yeah, I always heard it was best to take gels with water.
My gearing was compact cranks (50/34) and a 11-28 cassette. In hindsight, I'm thinking the cause might have come from a lack of specificity of training for many 1-3 mile climbs at 4-9% over 100 miles. I didn't do any hill specific training rides. My only preparation came from the OS and GF training on the trainer. This had me fit for the distance as I never cramped and was never limited by my cardio system (e.g. tired). My only limiter was the pain around my knees which came the second day.
Update on the pain...this is strange. After the RR Ride Sunday, the pain lasted all of Monday. Tuesday is was 99% gone. Today/Wednesday, completely gone and I did a 70' Z2 ride with a few 60" Z4 efforts with no pain. I agree that a higher cadence (92 - 100) will keep the knees happy. I'm getting a bike fit check up tomorrow to make sure nothing has changed.
Thanks for your advice!
Derrek
Two. Water is best used externally on race day to call you down, and internally in case of emergency. Let me know how the bike fit goes!
The bike fit check-up went well. He put a shim under my left cleat to help stabilize/align my knee and raised my seat about 3 mm. It was border-line on the low side and said it would give my knees a little relief. He also said my flat feet could be a contributing factor because in the power phase of the pedal stroke arches flatten out which might be causing a slight rotation/twist in my tibia impacting my knee. He recommended insoles to support my arches if things didn't improve after Eagleman. We didn't want to make any major changes a couple weeks before the race.
I'll let you know how Race Rehearsal goes Saturday.
Id ask your teammates about the flat feet thing...that might yield some interesting stuff. Have a great ride!
Thanks!
Yes to the regular plan into the race, but I would still keep one full day of rest per week. Your body needs it and you won't be slower because of it.
~ Coach P
Also, the Wednesday FTP ride (on the trainer) went very well (.98 - 1.01) on the intervals and no pain around the knees!
Thanks!
Good phone chat. Thanks for the take-aways! They were well needed. As mentioned, I'm looking at IM Atlantic City Sept 17 and IM Louisville Oct 15. Do you think these races are too close and what do you think would be negatively impacted (if anything) at IM Louisville from racing 70.3 AC 4 week prior?
Also, what is your recommendation regarding TSR with these two races.
Thanks!
Thanks
As you'll see in this forum, I handle all manner of edits and changes. So post away, know that I reply here usually M/W/F each week.
Power User Tip: Click the Star icon by the Title of this thread to subscribe, and you'll get email updates when I do reply.
Your Races
Your Season Update
These are your recommended training plans, including the date you should start each one (sometimes you won’t complete a full plan but transition to another one). You can change your plans on the Training Plan page by clicking the Move / Change button. Learn more about each plan on the Training Plan Central Page.
Coach Notes
I think the best course of action for you is to load up the training plan to Focus on Louisville. You have already had a long season and a solid build up to Eagleman. Now as we begin to lengthen your training, we can incorporate Patriot along the way.
You have approximately 14 weeks to go, so there is flexibility in your training. Normally I would encourage people to get in some extra long riding in the next two weekends before your training becomes serious. But I want to be very cautious about your knee. I really recommend that you keep it on as flat a course as possible.
When you are ready to integrate Patriot, here is the resource page on how you can insert a 70.3 into your Ironman build.
Let's get to work!
~ Coach P
Thanks! Copy on the plan. One question, any specific reason for the minimalist plan vice the regular IM plan? Just wondering...I don't have a preference. Thanks.
Also, I loaded up the plan and I'm on week -1 of 12. What should I be doing the next two weeks? I had just started week 3 of Bike Focus...should I continue until week 1 of the IM Min Plan?
Thanks.
I support you no matter what plan you choose, but that is my preference.
I totally forgot that minimalist plan is just 12 weeks, so yes I suggest you plan on closing out the bike focus plan for now. Maybe check out that training log, and let me know what you think!
@Coach Patrick
You must be psychic! As you suggested, I reviewed my training log in Training Peaks and did a comparison of my training load between Oct 2015 to Jun 2016 and Oct 16 to Jun 17. Bottom line, I agree with doing the minimalist plan...I couldn’t believe I’ve biked so much more this year than last. Read on for the year to year bike and run numbers. Thanks for your insight!
Bike Miles
1 Oct 15 – 30 Jun 16: 1,243
1 Oct 16 – 30 Jun 17: 2,792
Delta: 1,549 mile increase
Bike hours Mins
1 Oct 15 – 30 Jun 16: 121 hrs 33 mins
1 Oct 16 – 30 Jun 17: 172 hrs 06 mins
Delta: 50 hrs 33 min increase
Bike Total TSS / Avg Weekly TSS
1 Oct 15 – 30 Jun 16: 7,808 / 203
1 Oct 16 – 30 Jun 17: 10,793 / 270
Delta: 2,985 increase / 67 increase
-----------------------------------------------------
Run Miles1 Oct 15 – 30 Jun 16: 1,363
1 Oct 16 – 30 Jun 17: 896
Delta: 467 mile decrease
Run hours Mins
1 Oct 15 – 30 Jun 16: 178 hrs 16 mins
1 Oct 16 – 30 Jun 17: 115 hrs 37 mins
Delta: 62 hrs 39 min decrease
Run Total TSS / Avg Weekly TSS
1 Oct 15 – 30 Jun 16: 14,769 / 375
1 Oct 16 – 30 Jun 17: 9,667 / 242
Delta: 5,102 decrease / 133 decrease
@Coach Patrick
I'm in Week 1 of the Minimalist plan and I see there's a Big Tri Day (swim 1 hr/bike 4 hr/run 1 hr) this Saturday and Sunday is a split long run of 60' and 45'). And there's another Big Tri Day in week 3. I just want to make sure this is correct. Also, wondering how important the Big Tri day is in week 1 as it will make for a long day and burn up some SAUs, that can be saved for later. :-) If it's not that important, I'd like to move the swim to Friday and do the bike/run Saturday, if you concur.
Thanks.
given your training thus far this year, you can also modify the second one as well.
I am more interested in you doing the intensity portion of the program that I am the volume at this point.