So I did my first 30/30 work this morning and had a couple questions I was hoping some of the vets could help me with. I am using HR but can't seem to get my HR up as high when I'm on the trainer as I do when I'm out on the road, is this common? I feel like I am pumping like crazy and the HR gets to a good point, just not as high as it does when I'm on the road and I worry a bit about overcooking it. I'm also a bit worried about the lag on HR, though I just tried to go like made for the hard part and make sure the HR drops pretty far for the second half. Any advice would be welcome, thanks!
@Freddy: I'm sure Rich or Patrick will have the "true" answer, but I would think that any VO2max work (including 30/30s) should be done using your 5' power from the test. That's what it's for. However, if you're finishing all of the 30/30 sets and you're not very tired by the end of that last set, then maybe you should consider bumping up that number at least for the 30/30s. FYI, the first couple of sets always feel REALLY easy to me. The next are harder, and by the last set, I'm struggling to hold my target for 30 seconds.
Coggan sets VO2max power at between 106%-120% of FTP. I have found in the past that 5 minutes at 120% FTP is nigh impossible for me. I tend to putter out around 3 minutes or so. So, my 5' power will likely be < 120% FTP. It'll still be much higher than 105% FTP. So, doing intervals at that level will still be a VO2max effort.
I would suggest the following:
Calculate 120% FTP.
Compare to your 5' power number
Assuming 120% FTP > 5' Power, choose 5' power for your first 30/30 wko or two
If it feels too low, try 120% FTP (or somewhere between the two).
If it feels too high, experiment with targets between the two (likely you'll end up somewhere between the two)
Hope this helps.
EDIT TO ADD
If I had read all of your post, I'd have seen that you provided the numbers. I'd go with 5 minute power for your 30/30s
Hi Joe. I'm new to EN too and had this same issue. The deal is that it's a seperate authorization.... included in the fee we pay but you need to request access to the tool. I think when you click on the 'data tool' link that there's an option to request access. Good luck!
Please note we are a few weeks away from consolidating these resources for you...thanks for your patience!!!!
@Gordon - Ok I suppose I can re-test when I get "the power" where do you suggest I fit this in though? (is that more of a RnP question?)
@Joe - Thanks! I really still feel like I don't know what I'm doing on my bike. As in my husband tells me to keep the cadence up, so I try to please him I do prefer to mash at a lower 85-95 cadence, but I couldn't imagine doing that for 40 minutes hard! The HR thing is just me. No matter how fit I am it doesn't seem to change. My avg yesterday with the vDot test was 190 with a max at 195! It's kinda crazy!
@ Dave, yes those are the warmups, at least thats what they have been before.
Got my Thursday workout done, I like the new warmup. 6x(4x30/30) blech!!!!
Question - when I stand up for my 3' in big gear, my pedaling becomes very choppy and the bike goes "chuck chunk chunk" is this because my pedaling is missing a spot on when I go round? I do not stand up much on the road when I am out, but I think this means that I might need to work on that?
Is this on a trainer or when you're outside riding? Either way, as long as it's not tire slippage on a trainer, then yes, you're hitting that dead spot at the bottom of your pedal stroke. Focus on pulling though the bottom of the pedal stroke. For a few weeks, it will KILL your thighs, but it will make you a more efficient at pedaling while standing.
Rich or Patrick will give you some guidance on how to work this in. If you are close to the week 8 test they may just tell you to ride HR for another week or two and test then
Finally did my first OS workout - 6 x 5 30/30. Went pretty well! TR output (http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/97069) - I find virtual power with my Fluid2 tends to overestimate power during rest intervals, and underestimate during work intervals.
So I did my first 30/30 work this morning and had a couple questions I was hoping some of the vets could help me with. I am using HR but can't seem to get my HR up as high when I'm on the trainer as I do when I'm out on the road, is this common? I feel like I am pumping like crazy and the HR gets to a good point, just not as high as it does when I'm on the road and I worry a bit about overcooking it. I'm also a bit worried about the lag on HR, though I just tried to go like made for the hard part and make sure the HR drops pretty far for the second half. Any advice would be welcome, thanks!
Scott - a WSM might have a better way, but this is what I do. My LTHR on the bike is now 162 and the speed I got on my trainer was 19.8mph for the test. So, with my current zones, Z5 is greater than 162 and 20mph. My Z4 is calculated by my Data tool as 156-161 and I picked a speed of 19-20mph. For Z3, less than 19mph. This way, when HR lags, I have something I can use that is tied to my zones. So, you need to make sure your computer has a back wheel magnet set-up to get the speeds. If not, all you've got is perceived effort , which for me is all over the chart.
Did the VO2 w/o tonight. Used the TR "Clouds Rest" w/o modified to 12x30/30's the 2x12'@ 85% FTP. Maybe its just me, but my legs need some rest after that 5k run test and tonight.
Knocked out today's V02 workout. 30/30's work ya, but they were easier than testing on monday in my opinion. The plan is to stick to the plan and so far so good. Looking forward to Friday's "workout"
Testing Monday reminded of how much I JUST LOVE MY DRAINER! Inside VO@max at 5 min 256 watts 20 min FTP 214 no where to go but up. The 30/30s today were awesome I really like the burn I begin to feel in sets 4-6. The 120% for 30 seconds followed by 65% works well for me. Glad to see everyone else getting it done!
VO2 set done tonight - actually enjoyed them.... for now.... before the deep fatigue sets in. My only issue was counting. Was supposed to be 4 x (6 x 30/30) but I cant count very well cause I did sets as 8-6-6-6. Followed up with 15 @ (0.853)
Seem to have trouble getting Power Agent to upload to Strava from the Joule. It says it does but nothing shows up. Oh well.
Off to bed - early and long day for me tomorrow (most Fridays). I commute 135 each way and put in a 6+ hour day once I get there helping the foresters with technology or mapping issues.
VO2 set easier than expected. Perhaps my FTPs low or it's going to catch up me with after a week or so.
I'm a little unsure about how the bike will go since I did NO biking from 7/18 until starting OS on Monday while doing a totally run focus block ending in a marathon.
Nice to be back in the pain cave for my 6th consecutive EN OS.
Last year I basically did all my OS bike workouts on the trainer. I think I mentally burned myself out from doing that, and didn't reach my full potential during the OS. Extra stupid considering I live in sunny SoCal and can ride outdoors all year long...
I did my VO2 workout outside today. SO much easier (mentally...) when there's scenery and stuff to chase.
The total for the bike on Saturday is listed as 60 min. The warm up (?) is 25 minutes. It looks like the work set is almost 60 minutes. But no warm up. Are the rides supposed to be 60 + the 25 minute warm up?
got my first ever 30/30s done this evening. my family is displaced by Sandy and living with friends in Ohio, so i have gotten out of my normal early morning workout routine....so far loving the short, intense workouts and feeling the burn in my legs.
for the Z5 intervals, i used my 5' VO2 test number from earlier this week. it's ~30W higher than 120% of my FTP, and as I've been reading, i guess that means i've got work to do getting my FTP to "catch up"
@ Julia - First off, I view the warm-up as a suggestion, or advice for those new to structured training.
My 30/30 workout was 6 x (4x30/30, 2'), which adds up to 36 minutes. I preceeded that with the usual ~18 minute warm-up I've been doing on a trainer for years: 10 minutes of gradual increase in effort (0.5>>0,7 IF), then 6 x 30-60 second spin ups/easy pedal @ 85-100%/50% of FTP, then another 2-5 minutes or so of effort @ 0.6>>0.75 IF. Then I finished with 5 min @ 0.8, and a one minute cool down. 60 minutes.
I'm taking a wait and see attitude on the 30/30s; I think I do best with work intervals of 75 seconds +/- for VO2 work. But since my roof is only 1.09 x my ceiling (meaning my VO2 number on the test was only 109% greater than my calculated FTP), I apparently turned myself into a big time diesel with all the IM pace work I was doing from July-Oct, and need to raise the roof again. So shorter @ the start, and increase the interval times if I'm not feeling tired enough.
@ Steve, I'm finding the same issue with Poweragent loading to Strava. I worked well for the first week and now its having issues. Now I just download to Strava once a week when I program my next week's workouts and load them to my Garmin.
@Julia, what Al said. The warm-up is a suggestion. Each person's needs/time available is different. My W/U was a bit longer yesterday because my legs were tired after the VDOT test. I usually only do about 10 minutes with a few minute high cadence spin-ups. Don't worry about making the total time math work, especially in the off-season, just get the Main Sets done as assigned.
To all, nice work! Enjoy the rest day today and make sure you USE IT TO REST! The OS may or may not be too tough for you now but its definitely a cumulative effect. Rest/recover when RnP say rest and recover.
Hello Julia, the most important part of the workouts is the Main Set. RnP are great coaches, but struggle with adding up time. This question comes up all the time. So, focus on the main set and get in as much of the warm up as you can if you have time limitations. The time listed is just a basic guide to say "Save about an hour or so of your day on Sat for your bike w/o"
Uneventful. No issues with traffic - no conflicts with bike-hating drivers - not surprising given that I'm working out in my garage now, but I'm outside Boston so I take nothing for granted.
Thanks for the input on the warm up guys! Since it's a bit different from the one I remembered last year I wanted to check. Also wanted to make sure I wasn't heading towards overdoing it by doing both, but it's a good point about everyone needing to pay attention to their own thing regarding how much is needed/possible. That's what I'll do!
And all y'all taking about the 30/30s being "easy" to start - just stand there for a second while I kick you in the shins. It wasn't a walk in the park for me!
I actually love the 30/30's this year. This is my third OS and for the last couple of months I have been riding my road bike with a group of roadies and so doing lots of jumps and anaerobic sets, unlike the last two years.
I looked at my power file for the 30/30's yesterday and was not even hang dog for the 6th set.
I'm with Julie on the 30/30 workout! I probably spent 10 minutes with my foam roller and rolling pin both pre and post work out too! My legs aren't holding back in telling me I shouldn't have slacked the last few weeks of the pre-season! Haha whoops!
Out of bed at 6:15 and on the trainer for the 30/30s. Rode side by side with my new training partner: my ten year old Eleanor. She loves her new road bike, a Fuji Ace 24!
Got the 30/30's done yesterday. My power test gave me a VO2 power of almost exactly 120% of FTP, so it does not matter which method I use to set target VO2 watts. However, the 30/30's did seem easy - sure my legs were pumped and a little wobbly at the end, but it really was not that hard. Last year we did not do 30/30s, but longer VO2 work intervals. Looking back in Training Peaks, I see I started the VO2 phase in the last OS with 2' on and 2' off, and that worked pretty well - it remember they don't really start to get hard for me until about 1' in. But maybe I'll just stick with the plan for a couple of weeks before I get over aggressive - we have long way to go.
Knocked out the 30/30 session 6 x (5 x 30/30) yesterday. Little Fountain Of Youth Yoga with my pal T. Horton today. Looking towards the brick FTP session tomorrow. Steady with the mantra of "disciplined excellence over time".
Comments
@Freddy: I'm sure Rich or Patrick will have the "true" answer, but I would think that any VO2max work (including 30/30s) should be done using your 5' power from the test. That's what it's for. However, if you're finishing all of the 30/30 sets and you're not very tired by the end of that last set, then maybe you should consider bumping up that number at least for the 30/30s. FYI, the first couple of sets always feel REALLY easy to me. The next are harder, and by the last set, I'm struggling to hold my target for 30 seconds.
Coggan sets VO2max power at between 106%-120% of FTP. I have found in the past that 5 minutes at 120% FTP is nigh impossible for me. I tend to putter out around 3 minutes or so. So, my 5' power will likely be < 120% FTP. It'll still be much higher than 105% FTP. So, doing intervals at that level will still be a VO2max effort.
I would suggest the following:
Hope this helps.
EDIT TO ADD
If I had read all of your post, I'd have seen that you provided the numbers. I'd go with 5 minute power for your 30/30s
Well Roy was up early. I on the other hand had the day off and slept in and the workout still felt very hard.
3X(5X1') was my workout 15' on time @1.18-1.21. The last couple were very hard and my 1' 65% was a little low.
Did an additional 5' at .83% and called it a day. Total workout 52' @.915 IF.
Gordon
Please note we are a few weeks away from consolidating these resources for you...thanks for your patience!!!!
@Joe - Thanks! I really still feel like I don't know what I'm doing on my bike. As in my husband tells me to keep the cadence up, so I try to please him
Got my Thursday workout done, I like the new warmup. 6x(4x30/30) blech!!!!
Question - when I stand up for my 3' in big gear, my pedaling becomes very choppy and the bike goes "chuck chunk chunk" is this because my pedaling is missing a spot on when I go round? I do not stand up much on the road when I am out, but I think this means that I might need to work on that?
Is this on a trainer or when you're outside riding? Either way, as long as it's not tire slippage on a trainer, then yes, you're hitting that dead spot at the bottom of your pedal stroke. Focus on pulling though the bottom of the pedal stroke. For a few weeks, it will KILL your thighs, but it will make you a more efficient at pedaling while standing.
@Jessie ;- When you get power just post a question in the micro thread to the coaches:
http://members.endurancenation.us/T...fault.aspx
Rich or Patrick will give you some guidance on how to work this in. If you are close to the week 8 test they may just tell you to ride HR for another week or two and test then
Gordon
That is all.
Scott - a WSM might have a better way, but this is what I do. My LTHR on the bike is now 162 and the speed I got on my trainer was 19.8mph for the test. So, with my current zones, Z5 is greater than 162 and 20mph. My Z4 is calculated by my Data tool as 156-161 and I picked a speed of 19-20mph. For Z3, less than 19mph. This way, when HR lags, I have something I can use that is tied to my zones. So, you need to make sure your computer has a back wheel magnet set-up to get the speeds. If not, all you've got is perceived effort , which for me is all over the chart.
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/97065
Knocked out today's V02 workout. 30/30's work ya, but they were easier than testing on monday in my opinion. The plan is to stick to the plan and so far so good. Looking forward to Friday's "workout"
Seem to have trouble getting Power Agent to upload to Strava from the Joule. It says it does but nothing shows up. Oh well.
Off to bed - early and long day for me tomorrow (most Fridays). I commute 135 each way and put in a 6+ hour day once I get there helping the foresters with technology or mapping issues.
VO2 set easier than expected. Perhaps my FTPs low or it's going to catch up me with after a week or so.
I'm a little unsure about how the bike will go since I did NO biking from 7/18 until starting OS on Monday while doing a totally run focus block ending in a marathon.
Nice to be back in the pain cave for my 6th consecutive EN OS.
Good job everyone!
I did my VO2 workout outside today. SO much easier (mentally...) when there's scenery and stuff to chase.
Question!
The total for the bike on Saturday is listed as 60 min. The warm up (?) is 25 minutes. It looks like the work set is almost 60 minutes. But no warm up. Are the rides supposed to be 60 + the 25 minute warm up?
Anson - here's a kick from a fellow southern californian. get outside!!
got my first ever 30/30s done this evening. my family is displaced by Sandy and living with friends in Ohio, so i have gotten out of my normal early morning workout routine....so far loving the short, intense workouts and feeling the burn in my legs.
for the Z5 intervals, i used my 5' VO2 test number from earlier this week. it's ~30W higher than 120% of my FTP, and as I've been reading, i guess that means i've got work to do getting my FTP to "catch up"
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/239312405
@ Julia - First off, I view the warm-up as a suggestion, or advice for those new to structured training.
My 30/30 workout was 6 x (4x30/30, 2'), which adds up to 36 minutes. I preceeded that with the usual ~18 minute warm-up I've been doing on a trainer for years: 10 minutes of gradual increase in effort (0.5>>0,7 IF), then 6 x 30-60 second spin ups/easy pedal @ 85-100%/50% of FTP, then another 2-5 minutes or so of effort @ 0.6>>0.75 IF. Then I finished with 5 min @ 0.8, and a one minute cool down. 60 minutes.
I'm taking a wait and see attitude on the 30/30s; I think I do best with work intervals of 75 seconds +/- for VO2 work. But since my roof is only 1.09 x my ceiling (meaning my VO2 number on the test was only 109% greater than my calculated FTP), I apparently turned myself into a big time diesel with all the IM pace work I was doing from July-Oct, and need to raise the roof again. So shorter @ the start, and increase the interval times if I'm not feeling tired enough.
@Julia, what Al said. The warm-up is a suggestion. Each person's needs/time available is different. My W/U was a bit longer yesterday because my legs were tired after the VDOT test. I usually only do about 10 minutes with a few minute high cadence spin-ups. Don't worry about making the total time math work, especially in the off-season, just get the Main Sets done as assigned.
To all, nice work! Enjoy the rest day today and make sure you USE IT TO REST! The OS may or may not be too tough for you now but its definitely a cumulative effect. Rest/recover when RnP say rest and recover.
Hello Julia, the most important part of the workouts is the Main Set. RnP are great coaches, but struggle with adding up time
. This question comes up all the time. So, focus on the main set and get in as much of the warm up as you can if you have time limitations. The time listed is just a basic guide to say "Save about an hour or so of your day on Sat for your bike w/o"
v VO2 workout
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/97231
Uneventful. No issues with traffic - no conflicts with bike-hating drivers - not surprising given that I'm working out in my garage now, but I'm outside Boston so I take nothing for granted.
Thanks for the input on the warm up guys! Since it's a bit different from the one I remembered last year I wanted to check. Also wanted to make sure I wasn't heading towards overdoing it by doing both, but it's a good point about everyone needing to pay attention to their own thing regarding how much is needed/possible. That's what I'll do!
And all y'all taking about the 30/30s being "easy" to start - just stand there for a second while I kick you in the shins. It wasn't a walk in the park for me!
Gang,
I actually love the 30/30's this year. This is my third OS and for the last couple of months I have been riding my road bike with a group of roadies and so doing lots of jumps and anaerobic sets, unlike the last two years.
I looked at my power file for the 30/30's yesterday and was not even hang dog for the 6th set.
This OS is gonna be epic!
{At least the bike part}.
Paul
Out of bed at 6:15 and on the trainer for the 30/30s. Rode side by side with my new training partner: my ten year old Eleanor. She loves her new road bike, a Fuji Ace 24!
Knocked out the 30/30 session 6 x (5 x 30/30) yesterday. Little Fountain Of Youth Yoga with my pal T. Horton today. Looking towards the brick FTP session tomorrow. Steady with the mantra of "disciplined excellence over time".