@Scott Giljum Let's connect on what you are thinking now that Rattler is in the air.
June 21 to 24 Leadville Camp (26 + 23 + 15 miles)
August 18-18, Leadville
Really, your UltraTraining starts on 4/29 for a 16 week plan. So we have to get you from now through that point in time ready to rock. Also, We need to build a 100 mile plan!!!!!!!
I like the idea of a balanced training block for you where M-F is the same but the weekends vary.
Recovery Week "A"
Mon - yoga. Basically a rest day.
Tues - race in the morning, 5 mile run over lunch.
Wed - “long” run, say 1:15.
Thu - same as Tues.
Fri - yoga or full day off depending on how rough the week turns out to be.
Sat - 2 hour ride, 1 hour run.
Sun - CNC ride, hour or less run.
Work Week "B"
Mon - AM Steady Ride for an Hour; 5 mile run over lunch.
Tues - “long” run, say 1:15.
Wed - Active Recovery Day spinning on Zwift, optional Yoga.
Thu - “long” run, say 1:15.
Fri - Optional Spin today if you wake up, definitely 5 mile run over lunch.
Sat - Long Run or Split Run Day. Together is a 2 to 2.5 hour run, apart could be combined 3 to 4 hours. You can build this.
Sun - Bike Steady + Run Steady (you can run for as much time as you ride first; 90' ride gets you a 90' run). Over time we'll build this run up to be more, but for now this is sufficient.
@Coach Patrick I’m thinking I should be good for the new dates, but am now seriously considering a 100k then instead. Would that be too much/too stupid? I would love your feedback before I make that call though. Let me know what you think.
Also, looking at the two weeks, is the idea the B week for a few then the A week to back it down? I like the idea of a steady week and changes on the weekend as well. The weeks by themselves look good to me.
I was thinking you would start out by alternating them first for a total of four weeks and then extending the work week longer in use in the recovery more intermittently. When are you thinking of this 100 K? I am thinking you and I should talk on the phone because I’m pretty confused with all of these hypotheticals. Txt me
P, the 100k starts on Friday 4/12 at 6 am. I’m currently working through week “B”, with A next week as the plan. Let me know if that works and where we go from here. Thanks again for all your help!
@Scott Giljum -- complete the B week for you and then add a week again starting on the 28th. Then you will roll from that into the ultra plan through April 6. I think that's the best transition point for the work you've done to get back into the work you need to do. Personally, I would like to see you continue cycling a little bit even though you'll be in the ultra plan.
The tricky part is finding the best place to do it because you will need to do some quality running as well. Be curious to know what your thoughts are around places to stack it. For example, we could have two good weekends of back to back runs and then one weekend with all longer run and then a nice bike ride for example.
Of course most of this is indoors, when ideally will be outside. But I defer to you as to which way you think is best.
Ok, so B week this week, A week next week, then the 50 mile plan from there? If that’s the basic framework, I’m good with that.
As for the bike, I would like to keep it involved as well. I enjoy it right now (something I can’t always say) and I do think it’s underutilized for this type of training. I would be good with two weeks long run then one with long bike and long run. It will help mix it up a little bit and keep it fresh. I would like to still keep one or two of the weekday rides as well if possible, but understand if it gets cut due to bandwidth concerns.
Mine last item to mention. The treadmill I have has a significant incline feature (up to 40 degrees and down to -6). I have thought about including some kind of hiking on an incline type of time, but I’m not sure where to put it. Thoughts?
@Scott Giljum - yessir, that's the way it should go.
Yes to the bike and let's see How it plays out. Remember, at the end of the day IT'S ALL ABOUT THE TSS. I don't care how you earn it, you just need it. 🤣
I'm monitoring that thread @Coach Patrick. Interested to see what comes back. I am currently thinking that in the normal Ultra plan week, I will use the Tuesday 50 minute run as a treadmill/incline training session. I was thinking something like 5 minute warm up, 4x10 minutes of incline (increasing by some percent each block) with 5 to cool down on the end. Or probably better, 3 warm up, 3 cool down, 4x10 with a minute easy in between to allow for a bit of a cardio reset and tendon/muscle/ligament release. As I think about the 100 in particular, I know I am going to want to use that ability to try and mimic Hope Pass as much as I can since I have hills here, but nothing like that (I don't live in Barrington after all!). I know it will impact mileage (not that worried) and possibly TSS (as I have the info go from zwift to TP and I don't think the power data goes over), but at the end of the day, I think it will best prepare me for some of that type of work.
Last question, at least for now. Are you final surge-ing this, or should I just know it and execute. I am good either way as we aren't talking about much deviation from the normal 50 mile plan leading up to Zion, more just curious. Thanks again!
I think making an adjustment on Tuesday is perfect. Your calling the actual pace, I just want you're being really comfortable on the incline. Especially given the status of Your lower extremities!
There is no substitute for living near extreme elevation like I do here in Barrington, but I think the treadmill work is a good proxy. 🤣
Falls under that Extra category. I hope you understand.
@Coach Patrick I have a more urgent question now. This last weekend I tweaked something in my right (non-surgically repaired) ankle/foot. It still hurts pretty good today unfortunately. I’m hoping a little reduction in running will get it back to normal, but we’ll see. I will go see a doctor if it persists for a few more days.
My question to you is this. I would love to still do Zion, assuming I can get my leg back to ok. I may need to adjust the plan though if I can’t run for a bit. How would you suggest I do that? Should I just bike for the same amount of time? Add a bit more intensity? What would you suggest?
Elevate ice and wrap that thing ASAP. Make that doctors appointment now just in case. And yes, get on the bike and do time in the same part Raison. During the week, it should just be swapping time we shall see about the weekend with duration and intensity. Please give me an update in 48 hours.
@Coach Patrick here is an update. I did talk to a doctor over the phone and made an appt just in case. Basically the pain I described to him was, as I thought, basically a tracing of the perineal tendon. He thought there might be some kind of muscle imbalance leading to an overload causing the issue. I’m supposed to see my ART guy in a couple weeks (unfortunately that’s as soon as I can get in). I see a sports doc on Monday to see if there is something I should be doing. The pain is lessening, but is VERY apparent when I move the foot/ankle certain ways, ways that engage that tendon.
I will also say I was curious if I could run today in a controlled environment (treadmill, limited grade, easy speed). I tried and it went ok, not great but ok. I stretched and rolled and will see how I feel tomorrow.
Thinking of the weekend, I’m supposed to run 2 hours each day. Depending on how the leg feels I may sub in some bike work. I was thinking run the two on trails Saturday (again if leg allows) and then ride 90 run 90 on Sunday. What do you think?
@Scott Giljum sorry I missed your initial message before the weekend. It’s hard to keep up between discord group me in this forum right now. 😂
From what I gathered in your post yesterday, it’s clear that the peroneal tendon is behaving very similarly to the lake you just had repaired. It is fascinating to me that the same thing is happening on both sides. I can’t stress to you how rare that is. That’s like someone breaking their right arm and then breaking their left arm is well. Or someone tearing one hamstring and then the other one a month later.
I know this is definitely not a great time for you with regards to your body. On the plus side he done a lot of training and so you are very fit. At the same time you are dealing with the challenges of keeping your body healthy. Only you know the best path forward with regards to self-care. Will rest and self-care work? Are you willing to be patient enough?
Once you have some details back from a sports doctor, why don’t you set up a call with me?
@Coach Patrick here is a quick update, though more to come. I got an MRI yesterday and the diagnosis was “osteochondral defect of the lateral talar some”. Basically I think it means damaged cartilage that sits between the shin bone and the ankle bone. Per the doctor, it typically happens from a traumatic incident, but my read makes it seem like it could be a delayed response from the actual incident. I’m not sure the incident but there are candidates.
So that’s what the issue is. As for next steps, I see a surgeon on Tuesday. From what I read, they could opt for conservative which means a boot and no weight for a month to six weeks and PT after. That seems to have limited success, so the other course is surgery and I’ll learn what that means if we go that way. I will schedule a call once I talk to the surgeon and we can catch up.
To your question on staying healthy as issue for me. I’m glad it’s not the same exact issue on the other side, because that would be crazy. That said, the result here isn’t really any better as I’m still hurt and could be dealing with it as long as the previous issue. I am open to any suggestions on how to better manage things as I enjoy being sidelined as much as anyone else. I didn’t think I was pushing it this time to be honest. I thought I was stretching for sure, but managing it. I had no real indication I was in trouble until it happened. I have thought about what I would do differently a lot, and would/will approach things a bit different, but that’s in hindsight. The “good” news, I should have some downtime to think about all this.
Again, I will set up a call after I talk to the surgeon. Thanks!
Thanks for the update. I appreciate your perspective on the matter. I agree that you were being pretty conservative. To your point, I’m not sure what else we could’ve done differently aside from avoiding incidents. I recommend that you keep up the cycling because you certainly have a good aerobic and Jenn. Let’s see what the surgeon says, maybe there’s just some cycling in your future before you shut things down over the winter?
@Scott Giljum - Scott, so if I am hearing you correctly, this is a two step process (for now) with an eventual goal setting / new sport focus. Here is a summary of your notes to me:
Known:
- 10 year lifespan until hip. Write that down.
- Mileage cap of 12-15 miles a week.
7/3 to 7/17 (2 weeks)
- 1 hour of cardio a day
- 1 day off
7/17 starts return to run protocol
- I need to have three run and PT exercises only days
- one off day.
Here is what I see for you:
Start Up Phase:
Mon - OFF / PT
Tues - Bike Easy, 60’.
Wed - Swim 30’ + PT
Thu - Bike Easy, 60’.
Fri - Swim 30’ + Core 15’
Sat - Outside Bike Day
Sun - Choice day…bike or swim.
Return to Run Phase (weeks 1-4)
Mon - Elliptical / Run + PT exercises
Tues - Swim
Wed - Elliptical / Run + PT exercises
Thu - Swim
Fri - Run + PT exercises
Sat - Long Ride Day (90, 120, 150, 180….)
Sun - Medium Ride Day
Return to Run Phase (weeks 5-8)
Mon - Run + PT exercises
Tues - Swim
Wed - Zwift + PT exercises
Thu - Swim
Fri - Run + PT exercises
Sat - Long Ride Day (90, 120, 150, 180….) + Run
Sun - Medium Ride Day
Basically an early focus on getting aerobic again, safely, for two weeks. Then as we "re enter" its a mix of elliptical / run to ease your hip into the process of getting active again. I have limited the bike in Part 1 and 2 of the re-entry as the focus should be on good running and the PT exercises; the bike will have to remain in the background. I think that after 8 weeks of re-entry you’ll be able to have a more traditional build..that puts you mid Sept to be a normal triathlete.
Which brings me to the future stuff. You can ABSOLUTELY do 70.3. We can hack the run and your race distance is under the weekly cap for the run, so that level of trigeekery remains open to you. And that also means off road or XTERRA tri stuff as well.
I don’t now how you feel about long swims, but I think Fondo racing and Gravel racing are great opportunities for you. So many cool events out there, and some of them are even multi day rides: https://www.hauteroute.org/ too…This is likely a bigger conversation, but I say you target some Fall bike rides as a means of getting you back to pushing limits and suffering…and we save TRI for 2020….thoughts?
P, just a couple points of clarification: I am "lucky" enough that I get to do PT exercises everyday for almost an hour a day. That should change a bit once I get to the return to run portion of the program. I also will still need a day off after I start the return to run phase. I can see what you have mapped out though and can tweak as needed.
Between you and I, I am more worried about how my ankle will react to running again more than my hip. The ankle never was totally resolved when my hip blew up, so I have always had it in the back of my mind, and it has acted not totally happy through PT to make sure I have a good amount of doubt. We will see how it goes, and I am doing as best I can to keep on top of it (PT, ART, etc), so I'm trying not to spend much mental space on something I don't control.
I agree that the "what do I do with myself now" is certainly a bigger discussion. I agree on figuring some things out to do in the fall just to get back to being an athlete, but no tri right now. I honestly may just work on getting fitness again and think about next year. That should give me time to look around for other things to do possibly beyond tri. I have thought about 70.3 and may give it a go, but as a person with a go big or go home mindset, 70.3 doesn't quite scratch that itch. I probably just need to get over myself to be honest. I am thinking about mountain bike type races as well in the long run, but I have very little experience there too. Maybe being "lost" for a bit isn't a bad thing.
Basically at this point, I just need to start putting in some consistent work to get back some fitness and hope my ankle holds up. I appreciate your thoughts, and maybe after I become less fat and more fit, we can get together and talk about what's next. Thanks again P for all you do.
You were going to be a core and functional strength machine when you were done! I remember you mentioning your ankle the other day when I was lurking in the ultra chat. You are right to have that basic concern since it’s hard to tell which came first. We absolutely know which of the two is more significant, and I believe you have dealt with it. In an ideal world, you are reduced hip mobility is what created that ankle problem. That ankle still needs to be solved, but it’s not the originator of the entire situation.
While you can’t control for it now, you absolutely can start researching and planning how you’re going to attack that as you return to exercise. As you have noted, it’s not simply going to go away while you have been focused on your clip.
In terms of moving forward, it certainly is a journey you need to walk on your own. Strangely enough while we are obsessed with Triathlon, there are many other pockets of endurance communities where you can go big and get a similar beating from awesome people just like your teammates here. Could be cycling, Could be gravel, could be mountain biking. If you’re looking to do a lot of work, and suffer, there is a space for you out there. We are comfortably ensconced in our current state, but there’s nothing to stop you from moving outside these artificial boundaries and finding new challenges. In many ways, you could be a pioneer for the rest of us.
@Coach Patrick time for an update. I think I am pretty much done with PT at this point and have finished the return to run protocol. I am continuing to work with a trainer who is helping me with core, glute, etc., strength to help with a few things, but specifically to help get the left side as strong as the right so that I can return to running safely with a strong chain. The thought is that should also help keep my ankle issues at bay. We will see how that goes, but so far the results seem really good. The main limitation I have at this point is that I'm not supposed to run any more than 2 to 3 miles at a time at least until November and never on back to back days. Unlike before, I can now run AND do something else on the same day.
With all the running limitations, I have been thinking about riding more and possibly racing in the gravel space so that I have something to shoot for. So what I was looking for some help on was what I should do to build from the very out of shape place I am currently at (36 CTL, and no, that's not a typo) to someone that could handle long bike rides and races like a champ. I have been riding two or three days a week, running three (mostly to get through the return to run protocol and out of PT), and yoga once a week. Lately I have also been going to PT once a week and the trainer twice a week. I was thinking getting to 4 or more days on the bike is a must, but would love your thoughts on what I should do and in what portions.
As always, thanks for your help. I hope your Kona ramp is going well!
Hey man, thank you for the update. On some level I feel weird giving you advice because I think you have been through the recovery protocols just as much as I have!
I appreciate how diligent you been with her recovery and I think the fact that you are in a good space with your running right now Is a testament to that. I think for the short term we maintain that general running schedule. If you are going to get to a place where the run is something you can compete at, it’s going to be a very long timeline so moderation is best.
I do like the idea of working in the cycling and finding other opportunities for you to be aerobically active. To me that doesn’t matter if it’s for a specific discipline or just for overall fitness. That said, some of those “other“ events are cool enough that it kind of makes you want to be good at them.
I think you’ve got a fairly specific window right now to ride outside before the weather turns against us. I appreciate that you are already leading things on Swift, but there’s no substitute for just getting out and exploring and enjoying the open road. Working from big picture to Small, I would say that you can follow your regimented schedule during the week but Saturday and Sunday should be outdoor rides of any duration longer than 90 minutes. The flatter it is the longer you can Go.
I consider those flatter routes to be essentially do no harm situations where you can spend lots of time in the saddle just turning the legs, eating and drinking, and getting your Zen on. These types of rides are fundamental as a precursor to create success in the winter.
We can pick up the out season at the end of October, eight weeks away! At that time we can begin to use intensity specifically as a tool to build some fitness and your run will be another two months further along. You should be safe picking any event for cycling only next year. I would avoid the 200 mile races but almost anything else should be fair game.
I hope training for AZ is going well. I’m looking for a little guidance on training. I have signed up for a long distance swim in August and possibly BWR if I can swing the dates for one, and make sure my legs can handle it for two. Running is still out for now. I’ve been trying a combo of riding and swimming (pool or vasa) to date. I’m looking for a little structure on both though. I have been thinking about Zwift races on Tuesday and Thursday. Maybe add in a ride on wed. Some kind of effort on Saturday and CNC on Sunday, adding in more time in the saddle on both those days. On the swim side I’ve been leaning towards the vasa more with the thought of more time in the water around summer when I have more chances of open water and the pool has both indoor and outdoor lanes so it’s not so packed. I’ve been swimming on MW at least, and F some as well as at least one of Sat and Sun if not both. I’m trying to find some structure and balance between it all. Any thoughts on a plan? Any questions just let me know. Oh, in addition, I see a trainer twice a week to work on core and strength, esp in getting it back in the repaired leg. It isn’t set on specific days, so that’s a bit of a wild card to throw in there. Let me know what you think. Thanks!
@Scott Giljum I see your above notes, but I know you are Hurting McRibs right now.
Number one is Keeping your rolling we need to build a big engine overall, regardless of where we point it. So rule #1 is do something daily no matter what.
Here's what I am thinking, and we could roll this through Feb...I know you have some gravel coming up so we'd need to check it out more at that time...
Work Week, 3 weeks in a row...
Mon - Swim
Tues - Race
Wed - Swim
Thu - Race, if Tired, go Steady ride for the Time.
Fri - Optional Swim or Rest
Sat - Race + Steady time. 90 to 150 minutes.
Sun - CNC Ride
Rest Week, every 4th week...
Mon - Rest Day
Tues - Interval WKO, max 20' of work.
Wed - Swim
Thu - Steady ride for the Time.
Fri - Optional Swim or Rest
Sat - Longer Ride Day (3-4 h, mostly steady)
Sun - Short Punch Ride, 20' to 30' Max Of work, no more than 45' of Ride Time. AdDitional time is core / Flex.
thanks for the format @Coach Patrick. Would you be opposed to a swim followed by bike on Saturday? I have been wanting to do a MWFSat masters swim schedule. Also, would you be opposed to easy riding on Wednesday if I felt ok? Or am I trying to add too much with these two for now?
Lastly, until the ribs allow actual swimming, I’m thinking more bike time. I’m hoping it will pass soon, but I assume that works. Thx!
Just wanted to follow up on this. You asked me whether not you could also ride on Wednesdays, if you were only going to do one of the two weekly session listed for Saturday and Sunday, then yes getting that additional riding on Wednesday would matter. I think four rides is kind of a good baseline for you. You could do something like a coffee right what is the perfect mix of aerobic work in intensity and fits your schedule.
swimming on the weekends would be great to introduce during that recovery week. Overall I think swimming is just important for your total health, but talking about it from a Training perspective there is still a lot of flexibility in your schedule.
For example, right now you could simply start with some time on the Vasa before you ride, say 15 minutes, as a first step.
Thanks for the update. Just a quick one of my own. I tried to swim this last week and the rib has been hurting pretty bad ever since. I’m thinking I’ll put the swim on pause for now. With that I may try to add a fifth ride, but I’m definitely wanting to be respectful of your guidance. Would this change your mind at all? I’m good either way, just curious.
One other question the Saturday riding prescribed. Would hang on fit the bill since at actual weight 3.5 is a big effort for me? I may also take that day to sleep some since I can find races later.
Thanks for the help, I’m hoping the rib gets better fast and all this is moot, but it seems to be dragging on more than I expected.
Total health is pretty good. The rib is pretty much good (slight twinge every now and then aside), and as long as I don’t push too much for too long, the hip abides. I keep working with a trainer on strengthening the lower half, so I actually think I’m in a pretty good place.
I will say I bounce back and forth lately thinking I may just cycle, or just swim. I’m fighting a cold right now so I passed on swimming since I find that miserable in this condition. With that, I’m back in the “become a cycle monster” mode. Except I know I’m not nearly strong enough on the bike to be really good at it. And while I’m a fast-ish swimmer for a triathlete, masters swimming has repeatedly pointed out I’m not in that population. Basically I want to feel really good at something but need to just wrap my head around the fact this is just my hobby.
Anyway, arm chair shrink needs aside, health overall is in a pretty good place and I’m ready to work.
I hear you man, getting old sucks. I think your biggest limit right now is consistency. I could be wrong, but it feels like every three weeks or so we had a bump. Our goal is to have a bug free six week block.
We need to get you in a place where your fitness starts carrying over to your other interests. Know what I mean?
So I would say I’ve been pretty consistent on the bike with 4-5 rides a week, typically 150-200+ miles per week except the week I broke the rib and last week with my daughters school trip. The swim has been less so unfortunately, a lot because of the rib. I have only been swimming 1-3 times a week (with 3 a while ago). Overall I feel like my fitness is coming along, but it certainly feels like I had a long layoff, because I did. I’ll keep working the plan and keep building the fitness.
Comments
I will keep the rest idea in mind if I need it.
As far as the next couple of months I can’t think of anything I have to plan around.
@Scott Giljum Let's connect on what you are thinking now that Rattler is in the air.
Really, your UltraTraining starts on 4/29 for a 16 week plan. So we have to get you from now through that point in time ready to rock. Also, We need to build a 100 mile plan!!!!!!!
I like the idea of a balanced training block for you where M-F is the same but the weekends vary.
Recovery Week "A"
Work Week "B"
Let me know what you think!
~ Patrick
@Coach Patrick I’m thinking I should be good for the new dates, but am now seriously considering a 100k then instead. Would that be too much/too stupid? I would love your feedback before I make that call though. Let me know what you think.
Also, looking at the two weeks, is the idea the B week for a few then the A week to back it down? I like the idea of a steady week and changes on the weekend as well. The weeks by themselves look good to me.
I was thinking you would start out by alternating them first for a total of four weeks and then extending the work week longer in use in the recovery more intermittently. When are you thinking of this 100 K? I am thinking you and I should talk on the phone because I’m pretty confused with all of these hypotheticals. Txt me
P, the 100k starts on Friday 4/12 at 6 am. I’m currently working through week “B”, with A next week as the plan. Let me know if that works and where we go from here. Thanks again for all your help!
@Scott Giljum -- complete the B week for you and then add a week again starting on the 28th. Then you will roll from that into the ultra plan through April 6. I think that's the best transition point for the work you've done to get back into the work you need to do. Personally, I would like to see you continue cycling a little bit even though you'll be in the ultra plan.
The tricky part is finding the best place to do it because you will need to do some quality running as well. Be curious to know what your thoughts are around places to stack it. For example, we could have two good weekends of back to back runs and then one weekend with all longer run and then a nice bike ride for example.
Of course most of this is indoors, when ideally will be outside. But I defer to you as to which way you think is best.
Ok, so B week this week, A week next week, then the 50 mile plan from there? If that’s the basic framework, I’m good with that.
As for the bike, I would like to keep it involved as well. I enjoy it right now (something I can’t always say) and I do think it’s underutilized for this type of training. I would be good with two weeks long run then one with long bike and long run. It will help mix it up a little bit and keep it fresh. I would like to still keep one or two of the weekday rides as well if possible, but understand if it gets cut due to bandwidth concerns.
Mine last item to mention. The treadmill I have has a significant incline feature (up to 40 degrees and down to -6). I have thought about including some kind of hiking on an incline type of time, but I’m not sure where to put it. Thoughts?
@Scott Giljum - yessir, that's the way it should go.
Yes to the bike and let's see How it plays out. Remember, at the end of the day IT'S ALL ABOUT THE TSS. I don't care how you earn it, you just need it. 🤣
Yes to the Treadmill. @John Withrow Swears by the steep incline power hiking. Let's see what folks say here: https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/sso?Target=/discussion/25519/steep-incline-treadmill-workout/p1?new=1
~ Coach P
I'm monitoring that thread @Coach Patrick. Interested to see what comes back. I am currently thinking that in the normal Ultra plan week, I will use the Tuesday 50 minute run as a treadmill/incline training session. I was thinking something like 5 minute warm up, 4x10 minutes of incline (increasing by some percent each block) with 5 to cool down on the end. Or probably better, 3 warm up, 3 cool down, 4x10 with a minute easy in between to allow for a bit of a cardio reset and tendon/muscle/ligament release. As I think about the 100 in particular, I know I am going to want to use that ability to try and mimic Hope Pass as much as I can since I have hills here, but nothing like that (I don't live in Barrington after all!). I know it will impact mileage (not that worried) and possibly TSS (as I have the info go from zwift to TP and I don't think the power data goes over), but at the end of the day, I think it will best prepare me for some of that type of work.
Last question, at least for now. Are you final surge-ing this, or should I just know it and execute. I am good either way as we aren't talking about much deviation from the normal 50 mile plan leading up to Zion, more just curious. Thanks again!
I think making an adjustment on Tuesday is perfect. Your calling the actual pace, I just want you're being really comfortable on the incline. Especially given the status of Your lower extremities!
There is no substitute for living near extreme elevation like I do here in Barrington, but I think the treadmill work is a good proxy. 🤣
Falls under that Extra category. I hope you understand.
~ Coach P
@Coach Patrick I have a more urgent question now. This last weekend I tweaked something in my right (non-surgically repaired) ankle/foot. It still hurts pretty good today unfortunately. I’m hoping a little reduction in running will get it back to normal, but we’ll see. I will go see a doctor if it persists for a few more days.
My question to you is this. I would love to still do Zion, assuming I can get my leg back to ok. I may need to adjust the plan though if I can’t run for a bit. How would you suggest I do that? Should I just bike for the same amount of time? Add a bit more intensity? What would you suggest?
Elevate ice and wrap that thing ASAP. Make that doctors appointment now just in case. And yes, get on the bike and do time in the same part Raison. During the week, it should just be swapping time we shall see about the weekend with duration and intensity. Please give me an update in 48 hours.
@Coach Patrick here is an update. I did talk to a doctor over the phone and made an appt just in case. Basically the pain I described to him was, as I thought, basically a tracing of the perineal tendon. He thought there might be some kind of muscle imbalance leading to an overload causing the issue. I’m supposed to see my ART guy in a couple weeks (unfortunately that’s as soon as I can get in). I see a sports doc on Monday to see if there is something I should be doing. The pain is lessening, but is VERY apparent when I move the foot/ankle certain ways, ways that engage that tendon.
I will also say I was curious if I could run today in a controlled environment (treadmill, limited grade, easy speed). I tried and it went ok, not great but ok. I stretched and rolled and will see how I feel tomorrow.
Thinking of the weekend, I’m supposed to run 2 hours each day. Depending on how the leg feels I may sub in some bike work. I was thinking run the two on trails Saturday (again if leg allows) and then ride 90 run 90 on Sunday. What do you think?
@Scott Giljum sorry I missed your initial message before the weekend. It’s hard to keep up between discord group me in this forum right now. 😂
From what I gathered in your post yesterday, it’s clear that the peroneal tendon is behaving very similarly to the lake you just had repaired. It is fascinating to me that the same thing is happening on both sides. I can’t stress to you how rare that is. That’s like someone breaking their right arm and then breaking their left arm is well. Or someone tearing one hamstring and then the other one a month later.
I know this is definitely not a great time for you with regards to your body. On the plus side he done a lot of training and so you are very fit. At the same time you are dealing with the challenges of keeping your body healthy. Only you know the best path forward with regards to self-care. Will rest and self-care work? Are you willing to be patient enough?
Once you have some details back from a sports doctor, why don’t you set up a call with me?
@Coach Patrick here is a quick update, though more to come. I got an MRI yesterday and the diagnosis was “osteochondral defect of the lateral talar some”. Basically I think it means damaged cartilage that sits between the shin bone and the ankle bone. Per the doctor, it typically happens from a traumatic incident, but my read makes it seem like it could be a delayed response from the actual incident. I’m not sure the incident but there are candidates.
So that’s what the issue is. As for next steps, I see a surgeon on Tuesday. From what I read, they could opt for conservative which means a boot and no weight for a month to six weeks and PT after. That seems to have limited success, so the other course is surgery and I’ll learn what that means if we go that way. I will schedule a call once I talk to the surgeon and we can catch up.
To your question on staying healthy as issue for me. I’m glad it’s not the same exact issue on the other side, because that would be crazy. That said, the result here isn’t really any better as I’m still hurt and could be dealing with it as long as the previous issue. I am open to any suggestions on how to better manage things as I enjoy being sidelined as much as anyone else. I didn’t think I was pushing it this time to be honest. I thought I was stretching for sure, but managing it. I had no real indication I was in trouble until it happened. I have thought about what I would do differently a lot, and would/will approach things a bit different, but that’s in hindsight. The “good” news, I should have some downtime to think about all this.
Again, I will set up a call after I talk to the surgeon. Thanks!
Thanks for the update. I appreciate your perspective on the matter. I agree that you were being pretty conservative. To your point, I’m not sure what else we could’ve done differently aside from avoiding incidents. I recommend that you keep up the cycling because you certainly have a good aerobic and Jenn. Let’s see what the surgeon says, maybe there’s just some cycling in your future before you shut things down over the winter?
@Scott Giljum - Scott, so if I am hearing you correctly, this is a two step process (for now) with an eventual goal setting / new sport focus. Here is a summary of your notes to me:
Known:
- 10 year lifespan until hip. Write that down.
- Mileage cap of 12-15 miles a week.
7/3 to 7/17 (2 weeks)
- 1 hour of cardio a day
- 1 day off
7/17 starts return to run protocol
- I need to have three run and PT exercises only days
- one off day.
Here is what I see for you:
Start Up Phase:
Return to Run Phase (weeks 1-4)
Return to Run Phase (weeks 5-8)
Basically an early focus on getting aerobic again, safely, for two weeks. Then as we "re enter" its a mix of elliptical / run to ease your hip into the process of getting active again. I have limited the bike in Part 1 and 2 of the re-entry as the focus should be on good running and the PT exercises; the bike will have to remain in the background. I think that after 8 weeks of re-entry you’ll be able to have a more traditional build..that puts you mid Sept to be a normal triathlete.
Which brings me to the future stuff. You can ABSOLUTELY do 70.3. We can hack the run and your race distance is under the weekly cap for the run, so that level of trigeekery remains open to you. And that also means off road or XTERRA tri stuff as well.
I don’t now how you feel about long swims, but I think Fondo racing and Gravel racing are great opportunities for you. So many cool events out there, and some of them are even multi day rides: https://www.hauteroute.org/ too…This is likely a bigger conversation, but I say you target some Fall bike rides as a means of getting you back to pushing limits and suffering…and we save TRI for 2020….thoughts?
P, just a couple points of clarification: I am "lucky" enough that I get to do PT exercises everyday for almost an hour a day. That should change a bit once I get to the return to run portion of the program. I also will still need a day off after I start the return to run phase. I can see what you have mapped out though and can tweak as needed.
Between you and I, I am more worried about how my ankle will react to running again more than my hip. The ankle never was totally resolved when my hip blew up, so I have always had it in the back of my mind, and it has acted not totally happy through PT to make sure I have a good amount of doubt. We will see how it goes, and I am doing as best I can to keep on top of it (PT, ART, etc), so I'm trying not to spend much mental space on something I don't control.
I agree that the "what do I do with myself now" is certainly a bigger discussion. I agree on figuring some things out to do in the fall just to get back to being an athlete, but no tri right now. I honestly may just work on getting fitness again and think about next year. That should give me time to look around for other things to do possibly beyond tri. I have thought about 70.3 and may give it a go, but as a person with a go big or go home mindset, 70.3 doesn't quite scratch that itch. I probably just need to get over myself to be honest. I am thinking about mountain bike type races as well in the long run, but I have very little experience there too. Maybe being "lost" for a bit isn't a bad thing.
Basically at this point, I just need to start putting in some consistent work to get back some fitness and hope my ankle holds up. I appreciate your thoughts, and maybe after I become less fat and more fit, we can get together and talk about what's next. Thanks again P for all you do.
You were going to be a core and functional strength machine when you were done! I remember you mentioning your ankle the other day when I was lurking in the ultra chat. You are right to have that basic concern since it’s hard to tell which came first. We absolutely know which of the two is more significant, and I believe you have dealt with it. In an ideal world, you are reduced hip mobility is what created that ankle problem. That ankle still needs to be solved, but it’s not the originator of the entire situation.
While you can’t control for it now, you absolutely can start researching and planning how you’re going to attack that as you return to exercise. As you have noted, it’s not simply going to go away while you have been focused on your clip.
In terms of moving forward, it certainly is a journey you need to walk on your own. Strangely enough while we are obsessed with Triathlon, there are many other pockets of endurance communities where you can go big and get a similar beating from awesome people just like your teammates here. Could be cycling, Could be gravel, could be mountain biking. If you’re looking to do a lot of work, and suffer, there is a space for you out there. We are comfortably ensconced in our current state, but there’s nothing to stop you from moving outside these artificial boundaries and finding new challenges. In many ways, you could be a pioneer for the rest of us.
@Coach Patrick time for an update. I think I am pretty much done with PT at this point and have finished the return to run protocol. I am continuing to work with a trainer who is helping me with core, glute, etc., strength to help with a few things, but specifically to help get the left side as strong as the right so that I can return to running safely with a strong chain. The thought is that should also help keep my ankle issues at bay. We will see how that goes, but so far the results seem really good. The main limitation I have at this point is that I'm not supposed to run any more than 2 to 3 miles at a time at least until November and never on back to back days. Unlike before, I can now run AND do something else on the same day.
With all the running limitations, I have been thinking about riding more and possibly racing in the gravel space so that I have something to shoot for. So what I was looking for some help on was what I should do to build from the very out of shape place I am currently at (36 CTL, and no, that's not a typo) to someone that could handle long bike rides and races like a champ. I have been riding two or three days a week, running three (mostly to get through the return to run protocol and out of PT), and yoga once a week. Lately I have also been going to PT once a week and the trainer twice a week. I was thinking getting to 4 or more days on the bike is a must, but would love your thoughts on what I should do and in what portions.
As always, thanks for your help. I hope your Kona ramp is going well!
Hey man, thank you for the update. On some level I feel weird giving you advice because I think you have been through the recovery protocols just as much as I have!
I appreciate how diligent you been with her recovery and I think the fact that you are in a good space with your running right now Is a testament to that. I think for the short term we maintain that general running schedule. If you are going to get to a place where the run is something you can compete at, it’s going to be a very long timeline so moderation is best.
I do like the idea of working in the cycling and finding other opportunities for you to be aerobically active. To me that doesn’t matter if it’s for a specific discipline or just for overall fitness. That said, some of those “other“ events are cool enough that it kind of makes you want to be good at them.
I think you’ve got a fairly specific window right now to ride outside before the weather turns against us. I appreciate that you are already leading things on Swift, but there’s no substitute for just getting out and exploring and enjoying the open road. Working from big picture to Small, I would say that you can follow your regimented schedule during the week but Saturday and Sunday should be outdoor rides of any duration longer than 90 minutes. The flatter it is the longer you can Go.
I consider those flatter routes to be essentially do no harm situations where you can spend lots of time in the saddle just turning the legs, eating and drinking, and getting your Zen on. These types of rides are fundamental as a precursor to create success in the winter.
We can pick up the out season at the end of October, eight weeks away! At that time we can begin to use intensity specifically as a tool to build some fitness and your run will be another two months further along. You should be safe picking any event for cycling only next year. I would avoid the 200 mile races but almost anything else should be fair game.
Let me know if I missed anything!
Hey P,
I hope training for AZ is going well. I’m looking for a little guidance on training. I have signed up for a long distance swim in August and possibly BWR if I can swing the dates for one, and make sure my legs can handle it for two. Running is still out for now. I’ve been trying a combo of riding and swimming (pool or vasa) to date. I’m looking for a little structure on both though. I have been thinking about Zwift races on Tuesday and Thursday. Maybe add in a ride on wed. Some kind of effort on Saturday and CNC on Sunday, adding in more time in the saddle on both those days. On the swim side I’ve been leaning towards the vasa more with the thought of more time in the water around summer when I have more chances of open water and the pool has both indoor and outdoor lanes so it’s not so packed. I’ve been swimming on MW at least, and F some as well as at least one of Sat and Sun if not both. I’m trying to find some structure and balance between it all. Any thoughts on a plan? Any questions just let me know. Oh, in addition, I see a trainer twice a week to work on core and strength, esp in getting it back in the repaired leg. It isn’t set on specific days, so that’s a bit of a wild card to throw in there. Let me know what you think. Thanks!
@Scott Giljum I see your above notes, but I know you are Hurting McRibs right now.
Number one is Keeping your rolling we need to build a big engine overall, regardless of where we point it. So rule #1 is do something daily no matter what.
Here's what I am thinking, and we could roll this through Feb...I know you have some gravel coming up so we'd need to check it out more at that time...
Work Week, 3 weeks in a row...
Rest Week, every 4th week...
Let me know what you think!
~ Patrick
PS...Watch out that nickname could stick! 🤣
thanks for the format @Coach Patrick. Would you be opposed to a swim followed by bike on Saturday? I have been wanting to do a MWFSat masters swim schedule. Also, would you be opposed to easy riding on Wednesday if I felt ok? Or am I trying to add too much with these two for now?
Lastly, until the ribs allow actual swimming, I’m thinking more bike time. I’m hoping it will pass soon, but I assume that works. Thx!
Just wanted to follow up on this. You asked me whether not you could also ride on Wednesdays, if you were only going to do one of the two weekly session listed for Saturday and Sunday, then yes getting that additional riding on Wednesday would matter. I think four rides is kind of a good baseline for you. You could do something like a coffee right what is the perfect mix of aerobic work in intensity and fits your schedule.
swimming on the weekends would be great to introduce during that recovery week. Overall I think swimming is just important for your total health, but talking about it from a Training perspective there is still a lot of flexibility in your schedule.
For example, right now you could simply start with some time on the Vasa before you ride, say 15 minutes, as a first step.
Thanks for the update. Just a quick one of my own. I tried to swim this last week and the rib has been hurting pretty bad ever since. I’m thinking I’ll put the swim on pause for now. With that I may try to add a fifth ride, but I’m definitely wanting to be respectful of your guidance. Would this change your mind at all? I’m good either way, just curious.
One other question the Saturday riding prescribed. Would hang on fit the bill since at actual weight 3.5 is a big effort for me? I may also take that day to sleep some since I can find races later.
Thanks for the help, I’m hoping the rib gets better fast and all this is moot, but it seems to be dragging on more than I expected.
McRibs...ribs suck. Some of my most painful injuries are ribs. Breathing, laughing, sleeping...like a paper cut on your soul.
I am hopeful that your forced trip helped you rest a bit, and your 19th OW place in Covfefe this AM has me hopeful you are rebounding.
Where are you at right now in terms of total health?
~ Coach P
Total health is pretty good. The rib is pretty much good (slight twinge every now and then aside), and as long as I don’t push too much for too long, the hip abides. I keep working with a trainer on strengthening the lower half, so I actually think I’m in a pretty good place.
I will say I bounce back and forth lately thinking I may just cycle, or just swim. I’m fighting a cold right now so I passed on swimming since I find that miserable in this condition. With that, I’m back in the “become a cycle monster” mode. Except I know I’m not nearly strong enough on the bike to be really good at it. And while I’m a fast-ish swimmer for a triathlete, masters swimming has repeatedly pointed out I’m not in that population. Basically I want to feel really good at something but need to just wrap my head around the fact this is just my hobby.
Anyway, arm chair shrink needs aside, health overall is in a pretty good place and I’m ready to work.
I hear you man, getting old sucks. I think your biggest limit right now is consistency. I could be wrong, but it feels like every three weeks or so we had a bump. Our goal is to have a bug free six week block.
We need to get you in a place where your fitness starts carrying over to your other interests. Know what I mean?
So I would say I’ve been pretty consistent on the bike with 4-5 rides a week, typically 150-200+ miles per week except the week I broke the rib and last week with my daughters school trip. The swim has been less so unfortunately, a lot because of the rib. I have only been swimming 1-3 times a week (with 3 a while ago). Overall I feel like my fitness is coming along, but it certainly feels like I had a long layoff, because I did. I’ll keep working the plan and keep building the fitness.