Got it. That should be no problem. Weekends tend to be just fine. I was thinking a bit about longer runs during the week and dealing with those logistics. All good then.
@Coach Patrick Alright boss, I am back. I have one more week before I should switch over to the 50 mile plan. This week I will stick with the basic layout we have been using (unless you want to modify it) with a target of around 30 miles running and adding back in the biking.
As for the 50 mile plan, let me know what you think. I have been kicking around a few things we could possibly use, including split long runs as well as longer runs (not as much as the plan calls for out of the gate, but still longish relative to what I have been doing) with a cycle session right after to add in steady time. I am good with whatever you think will work, but was thinking these two could keep the potential mileage issues minimized while also increasing that "long" engine. I hope your trip to Placid was a good one, talk with you soon.
Interesting! I hadn’t even thought about using split reins as a tool. Do you want to sketch out what you’re thinking so I can take a look at it? I think you’ve done everything pretty darn right so far so I’m very hopeful as you make this transition.
Okay, so here is where I need help. I look at the 50 mile plan and even with trying to make adjustments I have way too much mileage, at least I would think, at the start. So certainly pull this apart anyway you feel makes sense, but the basic week for say a month could look like this: Monday- off day or easy swim. Tuesday - Ride in the morning, short run over lunch, say 3-4 miles Wednesday- 90 minute run Thursday- basically a repeat of Tuesday Friday- short run, again 3-4 miles Saturday- Here is a question day. I could do a 90 minute run, or say hour run with an hour or two on the bike, or just a longer bike day similar to now. Sunday- true long run day, but probably split it. The plan says 18, so maybe I do that and split it, or a slightly reduced number and still split it.
As you can see, that’s a lot of running, which is needed to get ready to run 50, but also probably falls into the too much too soon as a guess. Manipulating Saturday in some way probably makes the most sense if I’m trying to balance distance and frequency, but what that exactly looks like is obviously a debate.
Let me know what you think, and I am on final surge (is it me or does that name sound like a flavor of Mountain Dew), so if you want to mock that up there, that works too. Thanks again P, and I have actually started to feel like an athlete again, which is a nice change.
@Coach Patrick I see some changes in final surge. Am I safe in thinking that is a work in process at this point? I just wanted to make sure as I think about the week and what I have ahead.
Done and done. On that note, I have not used my Garmin for zwift rides. I don’t think it will matter much this go round since I’m not riding a ton, but mostly wanted to let you know and see if there is another work around (like zwift to final surge link?).
@Coach Patrick sorry for short notice but I’m looking at rearranging next week a bit because I’m going to Leadville for the 100 mile run. I leave Thursday in the early afternoon and get back late Monday (8/20). I was thinking of sliding things forward a day (Tuesday work on Monday, Wednesday work on Tuesday, etc) until I leave. On Friday the course is open so I was going to do my long run (20 mile target) then. I’m supposed to pace Sunday. I’m not sure what I could do Saturday, but I could pick up another run Monday to make it up. What do you think?
@Coach Patrick I believe I owe you a check in so we can sort out what’s next in the grand plan. I believe you have my plan updated to 9/16, so hopefully this will give you some time to ask questions and help formulate next steps.
As for the update, other than dealing with the heat (a temporary issue I hope), things have been progressing pretty well. A few things of note based on my current plan. First, I have largely taken Monday off. I have thought about a short shake out type of run, but haven’t done it yet. The zwift races on Tuesday have seemed a bit too much the last couple of weeks, so I have just ridden with a few pushes as the legs allow. Otherwise I feel like I have pretty much been able to stick to the script. I have been overall healthy (knocking on wood now), and only a bit tired feeling which is a win for me. I have been slimming down a bit as well, which should help. I’ve been working on sidelining indulgent Scott for a while.
I still like the combo of cycle and run as it just seems to work and help build the engine.
I have also been working on gear and nutrition to see what works for me. I feel like I’m rounding into an idea on that, but nothing set in stone just yet.
Let me know what you think, and as always thanks for the guidance!
@Scott Giljum Can't ask for more than you are doing right now; really. My thoughts:
We drop the Monday run for a rest day. You are going to need it after longer runs, so let's keep it.
Speaking of rest Mondays, maybe plan ahead and book a few six hands massages in the future to help with recovery??!
I think eventually zwift racing will get better as you "adapt" assuming you do. I don't need you to win, just want you to push in a few sections (as you say). So I say we keep that part. Maybe we consider dialing back the Thursday ABP ride? If I had to pick I'd keep shorter / harder on the bike...thougths?
Please tell me you are adding protein as recovery? I recommend the Ascent protein, Micellar kind. Great for overnight recovery...straight from cheese man @JeremyBehler hisself!!!!
I will leave Monday as a rest day. I have scheduled a massage about once a month. Just two hands and a couple tough forearms, but it will do.
Zwift and where I’m at. The struggle I have with races right now is that it takes me a while to get the engine primed. The quick starts have been too much and I end up by myself in short order. I will stick with it though and see how I adapt.
I have not had protein overnight but will add the ascent you mention.
so reading into your comments on what it means going forward (which will update final surge I assume) is that the weekdays will likely look pretty similar to what they are now. True?
As for the weekends, I assume we start to get beefier? Not that what’s there isn’t, but I’m guessing it will be more?
if possible, you will want to longer warm up before the race. Try getting in at 20 to 25 minute spin before the next time you race and see if that helps. That may help you break through that initial fatigue and be able to handle the start.
I feel like the weekends are pretty sufficient, I’m not sure how you want to modify them more. I don’t want to get too aggressive given the good progress and you’re making right now. I am basically dropping the bike on Thursday to make room for the volume on the weekends. If you agree with that stuff that I can make you a template week you can follow out / copy.
I will try to add in more warm up time. It worked today so hopefully I can make it work going forward.
My thoughts on the weekend were not a drastic departure from the current plan to be honest. I figured Sundays continue as before with the long run that keeps growing as we get closer. Where I wasn’t sure was Saturday in that I wasn’t sure if we would keep the bike run combo or switch to all run to get in back to back long runs. I’m not advocating for anything as an FYI, more just a curiosity. Do we keep growing that run too or stick with the 2:30 block?
Lastly, as for the Thursday ride, I’m fine with whatever you think is best. That one hasn’t hurt as much, but the ABP format has allowed for that build up/work through the dead legs that the race hadn’t. I’m good with whatever you think is best. Thanks!
@Scott Giljum - okay, edits made. There is a transition to more Run Only weekends...But I do work in some rides As the weekend run volume goes up and down. Also added a bit of strides into the plan so you stay sharp.....czech it out.
Some of the off days are optional...or you can swim. But later on you might want them. You could put an easy spin in on Friday to stay loose...let's see how you feel at that point?
@Coach Patrick I just wanted to check in before the race. Training has gone well, only slight niggles to deal with, which doesn't worry me. Now I just need to avoid flu and colds until then and we will be good! My only question is do you have any last minute advice? I'm excited, nervous, etc. Basically all the normal pregame stuff. I fly out Thursday, will likely do a quick run on arrival to shake out the legs. I will find some pancackes the morning before, a solid lunch (subway is my typical with just meat and bread), and then a smaller pasta with protein dinner. At least that is my plan.
Other than last minute advice, my only other question is how to proceed after? I am planning on the Rattler next (though I haven't signed up yet, just want to make sure this race goes well before I start to get too race drunk and start signing up all over the place). I would like to keep as much running distance in place that I have built up, but do realize backing off a bit is likely a good idea. Oh, and I mean this in context of after some time for recovery (what does that look like as well?). I would like to add more Zwift back into my life, but realize I only have so much bandwidth. Obviously no rush on this, but curious what your thoughts are. As always, thanks for all you do!
Next steps is something we can talk about after the race. I just want to stand back and reflect for a minute but how awesome it is that we are even having this conversation. If you recall, wasn’t too long ago that you were planning your retirement from all things sweat related.
I know you are, but I just have to say, I strongly recommend you spend most of this race reflecting on what you have managed to achieve.
In terms of Race specific stuff, I think you’ll be fine. It’s more about that in the race come to you then chasing any particular performance. If I had to go for you, it would just to be present in the moment for all of those miles. Performance will absolutely follow!
Well the race is done! It was a good learning experience (a lot like my first IM) and I feel at least a little better prepared going forward. With that in mind, I wanted to get your thoughts on what I do now as far as training. My basic outline is Rattler, Leadville camp in June and Leadville in August. I would like to still bike some, and maybe even still hit the vasa for some swim strength/upper body strength that will help in general. Let me know what you think and thanks again for all the guidance that got me to and through last weekend! (I don't now though if I should thank you or curse you based on how bad my legs feel!)
No rest for the wicked, Ha? Let’s be clear that I had nothing to do with signing you up for all this madness. You can Yellit someone, but it’s definitely not me. 😂
Your year needs a break, and the best place for it is now, not between rattler and the Leadville race. What distances are you doing at rattler?
Right now I want you riding on the bike easy 30 to 60 minutes a day. This weekend, I would like you to do a three hour ride but easy. We want to keep the aerobic fitness there, probably don’t want to run just yet. Also, can you please let me know what jim/strength options you have on a frequent basis. Thanks and happy new year!
P, I’m in New Zealand on vacation at this point and get home late Thursday. I will start riding like you lined out once I get home. I have been running here (kickr doesn’t pack well) but nothing long. As for the weekend, just one day or both for the long easy ride?
as to your other questions, I signed up for the 66 for Rattler though I could likely shift to 33 if needed. I’m not doing the bike, just the run. I live a few minutes from the gym I go to (though I haven’t lifted a weight in a good handful of years). It has the pool I use for swimming, and I used to lift when I played rugby. It should get the job done unless you have an idea with a particularly specialized piece of equipment. The last couple years I have used yoga as my weight lifting replacement. Keeping yoga in the mix would be good if possible, but I obviously trust your judgment.
I have been feeling “behind” for Rattler training. Based on your comments, I will stop worrying about that. That thinking tends to get me in trouble anyway. I look forward to what you put together! It looks to be a big year! (Now I just need to stay healthy, fingers crossed, knocking on wood, etc.)
@Scott Giljum I can’t believe how well behaved everyone has been in your absence! You are definitely not “behind“ in your training, that’s just your tiny lizard brain talking. You just had a double peak and one solid race… As far as I can tell, he seem to be ahead of most people.
If we are going to be successful at this transition, it will require using the bike to carry some fitness between that time when you can do some long runs again. Don’t underestimate what you built, just roll with what you’ve got for the short term. This weekend I’d like to see two long rides for sure, and let’s check in next week and see how you’re feeling once you have transitioned back. I hear the jet lag is pretty brutal.
@Coach Patrick weekend work complete. I need to keep building saddle time to use that tool better but I don’t think that will take a bunch of time. The jet lag will likely make this next week tough, but it likely always was going to be.
For this next week I was thinking this (unless you tell me different): M-yoga. Basically a rest day. T- race in the morning, 5 mile run over lunch. W-“long” run, say 1:15. Thur-same as Tues. F-yoga or full day off depending on how rough the week turns out to be. Sat-2 hour ride, 1 hour run. Sun-CNC ride, hour or less run.
So first, what do you think of that? Two, after that, let me know what you think makes sense. I’m assuming a similar style of build as last time (bike transitioning to run), but am up for whatever you think. Thanks!
That week looks great. I like that we are having Monday and Friday be days for recovery. If possible, I encourage you to sleep in on those days as well. And honestly, if you find yourself fatigued and one of the days you have a workout scheduled, take that day off as well. It’s simply not worth it to push it this soon. The quicker you recover the quicker you can get back to training. No amount of training will help you recover more quickly!
In terms of big picture yes, I am thinking of another builder as you have described. The key is defining what the big weekends will be over time. Before we dive in, are there any constraints to your time in the next two months that we should plan around?
Comments
As for the 50 mile plan, let me know what you think. I have been kicking around a few things we could possibly use, including split long runs as well as longer runs (not as much as the plan calls for out of the gate, but still longish relative to what I have been doing) with a cycle session right after to add in steady time. I am good with whatever you think will work, but was thinking these two could keep the potential mileage issues minimized while also increasing that "long" engine. I hope your trip to Placid was a good one, talk with you soon.
Monday- off day or easy swim.
Tuesday - Ride in the morning, short run over lunch, say 3-4 miles
Wednesday- 90 minute run
Thursday- basically a repeat of Tuesday
Friday- short run, again 3-4 miles
Saturday- Here is a question day. I could do a 90 minute run, or say hour run with an hour or two on the bike, or just a longer bike day similar to now.
Sunday- true long run day, but probably split it. The plan says 18, so maybe I do that and split it, or a slightly reduced number and still split it.
As you can see, that’s a lot of running, which is needed to get ready to run 50, but also probably falls into the too much too soon as a guess. Manipulating Saturday in some way probably makes the most sense if I’m trying to balance distance and frequency, but what that exactly looks like is obviously a debate.
Let me know what you think, and I am on final surge (is it me or does that name sound like a flavor of Mountain Dew), so if you want to mock that up there, that works too. Thanks again P, and I have actually started to feel like an athlete again, which is a nice change.
Thanks for your patience,
~ Coach P
Also, please connect your Garmin - account to Final Surge when you can: Garmin / Device Upload
leadville!!!!! I say your plan is good. I would suggest Sat isn’t running but maybe some hiking. It’s all Durability to me!!!
i expect pacing pics....
@Coach Patrick I believe I owe you a check in so we can sort out what’s next in the grand plan. I believe you have my plan updated to 9/16, so hopefully this will give you some time to ask questions and help formulate next steps.
As for the update, other than dealing with the heat (a temporary issue I hope), things have been progressing pretty well. A few things of note based on my current plan. First, I have largely taken Monday off. I have thought about a short shake out type of run, but haven’t done it yet. The zwift races on Tuesday have seemed a bit too much the last couple of weeks, so I have just ridden with a few pushes as the legs allow. Otherwise I feel like I have pretty much been able to stick to the script. I have been overall healthy (knocking on wood now), and only a bit tired feeling which is a win for me. I have been slimming down a bit as well, which should help. I’ve been working on sidelining indulgent Scott for a while.
I still like the combo of cycle and run as it just seems to work and help build the engine.
I have also been working on gear and nutrition to see what works for me. I feel like I’m rounding into an idea on that, but nothing set in stone just yet.
Let me know what you think, and as always thanks for the guidance!
@Scott Giljum Can't ask for more than you are doing right now; really. My thoughts:
So pumped for you!!!
~ Coach P
Back at you:
so reading into your comments on what it means going forward (which will update final surge I assume) is that the weekdays will likely look pretty similar to what they are now. True?
As for the weekends, I assume we start to get beefier? Not that what’s there isn’t, but I’m guessing it will be more?
if possible, you will want to longer warm up before the race. Try getting in at 20 to 25 minute spin before the next time you race and see if that helps. That may help you break through that initial fatigue and be able to handle the start.
I feel like the weekends are pretty sufficient, I’m not sure how you want to modify them more. I don’t want to get too aggressive given the good progress and you’re making right now. I am basically dropping the bike on Thursday to make room for the volume on the weekends. If you agree with that stuff that I can make you a template week you can follow out / copy.
I will try to add in more warm up time. It worked today so hopefully I can make it work going forward.
My thoughts on the weekend were not a drastic departure from the current plan to be honest. I figured Sundays continue as before with the long run that keeps growing as we get closer. Where I wasn’t sure was Saturday in that I wasn’t sure if we would keep the bike run combo or switch to all run to get in back to back long runs. I’m not advocating for anything as an FYI, more just a curiosity. Do we keep growing that run too or stick with the 2:30 block?
Lastly, as for the Thursday ride, I’m fine with whatever you think is best. That one hasn’t hurt as much, but the ABP format has allowed for that build up/work through the dead legs that the race hadn’t. I’m good with whatever you think is best. Thanks!
@Scott Giljum - okay, edits made. There is a transition to more Run Only weekends...But I do work in some rides As the weekend run volume goes up and down. Also added a bit of strides into the plan so you stay sharp.....czech it out.
Was the Czech intentional or talk to text? I laughed either way.
Only question I have for you is two off days? Looks like Monday and Friday. That had not been the case and just wanted to confirm.
Otherwise my only question is of myself, as in, what did I sign myself up for?!
Some of the off days are optional...or you can swim. But later on you might want them. You could put an easy spin in on Friday to stay loose...let's see how you feel at that point?
And it was intentional!
@Coach Patrick I just wanted to check in before the race. Training has gone well, only slight niggles to deal with, which doesn't worry me. Now I just need to avoid flu and colds until then and we will be good! My only question is do you have any last minute advice? I'm excited, nervous, etc. Basically all the normal pregame stuff. I fly out Thursday, will likely do a quick run on arrival to shake out the legs. I will find some pancackes the morning before, a solid lunch (subway is my typical with just meat and bread), and then a smaller pasta with protein dinner. At least that is my plan.
Other than last minute advice, my only other question is how to proceed after? I am planning on the Rattler next (though I haven't signed up yet, just want to make sure this race goes well before I start to get too race drunk and start signing up all over the place). I would like to keep as much running distance in place that I have built up, but do realize backing off a bit is likely a good idea. Oh, and I mean this in context of after some time for recovery (what does that look like as well?). I would like to add more Zwift back into my life, but realize I only have so much bandwidth. Obviously no rush on this, but curious what your thoughts are. As always, thanks for all you do!
Next steps is something we can talk about after the race. I just want to stand back and reflect for a minute but how awesome it is that we are even having this conversation. If you recall, wasn’t too long ago that you were planning your retirement from all things sweat related.
I know you are, but I just have to say, I strongly recommend you spend most of this race reflecting on what you have managed to achieve.
In terms of Race specific stuff, I think you’ll be fine. It’s more about that in the race come to you then chasing any particular performance. If I had to go for you, it would just to be present in the moment for all of those miles. Performance will absolutely follow!
P,
Well the race is done! It was a good learning experience (a lot like my first IM) and I feel at least a little better prepared going forward. With that in mind, I wanted to get your thoughts on what I do now as far as training. My basic outline is Rattler, Leadville camp in June and Leadville in August. I would like to still bike some, and maybe even still hit the vasa for some swim strength/upper body strength that will help in general. Let me know what you think and thanks again for all the guidance that got me to and through last weekend! (I don't now though if I should thank you or curse you based on how bad my legs feel!)
No rest for the wicked, Ha? Let’s be clear that I had nothing to do with signing you up for all this madness. You can Yellit someone, but it’s definitely not me. 😂
Your year needs a break, and the best place for it is now, not between rattler and the Leadville race. What distances are you doing at rattler?
Right now I want you riding on the bike easy 30 to 60 minutes a day. This weekend, I would like you to do a three hour ride but easy. We want to keep the aerobic fitness there, probably don’t want to run just yet. Also, can you please let me know what jim/strength options you have on a frequent basis. Thanks and happy new year!
P, I’m in New Zealand on vacation at this point and get home late Thursday. I will start riding like you lined out once I get home. I have been running here (kickr doesn’t pack well) but nothing long. As for the weekend, just one day or both for the long easy ride?
as to your other questions, I signed up for the 66 for Rattler though I could likely shift to 33 if needed. I’m not doing the bike, just the run. I live a few minutes from the gym I go to (though I haven’t lifted a weight in a good handful of years). It has the pool I use for swimming, and I used to lift when I played rugby. It should get the job done unless you have an idea with a particularly specialized piece of equipment. The last couple years I have used yoga as my weight lifting replacement. Keeping yoga in the mix would be good if possible, but I obviously trust your judgment.
I have been feeling “behind” for Rattler training. Based on your comments, I will stop worrying about that. That thinking tends to get me in trouble anyway. I look forward to what you put together! It looks to be a big year! (Now I just need to stay healthy, fingers crossed, knocking on wood, etc.)
@Scott Giljum I can’t believe how well behaved everyone has been in your absence! You are definitely not “behind“ in your training, that’s just your tiny lizard brain talking. You just had a double peak and one solid race… As far as I can tell, he seem to be ahead of most people.
If we are going to be successful at this transition, it will require using the bike to carry some fitness between that time when you can do some long runs again. Don’t underestimate what you built, just roll with what you’ve got for the short term. This weekend I’d like to see two long rides for sure, and let’s check in next week and see how you’re feeling once you have transitioned back. I hear the jet lag is pretty brutal.
@Coach Patrick weekend work complete. I need to keep building saddle time to use that tool better but I don’t think that will take a bunch of time. The jet lag will likely make this next week tough, but it likely always was going to be.
For this next week I was thinking this (unless you tell me different): M-yoga. Basically a rest day. T- race in the morning, 5 mile run over lunch. W-“long” run, say 1:15. Thur-same as Tues. F-yoga or full day off depending on how rough the week turns out to be. Sat-2 hour ride, 1 hour run. Sun-CNC ride, hour or less run.
So first, what do you think of that? Two, after that, let me know what you think makes sense. I’m assuming a similar style of build as last time (bike transitioning to run), but am up for whatever you think. Thanks!
That week looks great. I like that we are having Monday and Friday be days for recovery. If possible, I encourage you to sleep in on those days as well. And honestly, if you find yourself fatigued and one of the days you have a workout scheduled, take that day off as well. It’s simply not worth it to push it this soon. The quicker you recover the quicker you can get back to training. No amount of training will help you recover more quickly!
In terms of big picture yes, I am thinking of another builder as you have described. The key is defining what the big weekends will be over time. Before we dive in, are there any constraints to your time in the next two months that we should plan around?