@Coach Patrick I wanted to just give you a more detailed update on what the story is at this point First, thanks for the quote and the article. I had read over the quote a few times when that injury happened (absolutely gruesome, makes me feel soft to even think I am in the same boat as that guy) and despite my strong dislike of Kobe, I took his words to heart. Some of it is true even to this point and I know I have a long way to go. Even though my riding is pathetic by any objective measure at this point, I don't care because it is fun to be able to get back in the saddle and be part of the group again. By the time I am actually allowed to run come March or April, I have a feeling I will be giddy like a kid at Christmas.
OK, so here are the details now. I just saw the doctor last week where I was told I could put weight on the foot as long as I keep it in the boot. I don't start PT or any of that until at least another month when I go back to the doctor. I was told I could swim, though the doctor and I agreed getting on and off the pool deck is probably a little too dicey right now, so I will stick with straight vasa. (On a side note, I am curious to see what I can do in the pool at this point as I generally feel much stronger and wonder how that will translate). I can bike, as long as it is only the trainer and no standing on the peddles or pressing where it will put stress on the ankle. Basically, if it is going to engage the calf muscle in any significant way, don't do it. And I don't get to run at all until about 6 months post surgery, which is the March/April time frame. On the biking, as with many of the things, the doctor basically said I could do it to pain. Basically if it hurts, stop.
So now I am trying to temper my new found freedom knowing that I am far from back. I am thinking I will swim three or four days (which is pretty much what I have been doing since the surgery) and add in biking three or four times a week. I don't really plan to do much more than an hour in any given sitting, at least for the next week or two. I figure just adding that stress back in will be enough to wipe me out for now. Again, at this point I don't know that I need any true coach advise, though I will always be happy to receive feedback. I am still very much playing it by feel until the New Year when I am more likely to be cut a bit more loose.
Ok P, I wanted to get a little feedback. I can now basically do everything but run. Ride, elliptical, swim, yoga, etc., should all be good, to pain of course. I will still be doing exercises daily to build strength, but I wanted some thoughts on how best to proceed. I’m wanting to just get in a good groove with the option of adding in as I feel. I also was thinking about using the elliptical as a placeholder for when I eventually can start to run again.
At at this point just to let you know where I’m at, I feel pretty good on the bike, have been haphazard with the swim and feel fine on the elliptical, though I am just at the start of that. Let me know what you think and Ride On!
The journey continues!!! You’ve been super patient and smart as well, both of which don't come easily to anyone.
I like what you are dong on Zwift, and want you to keep that as 75% to 80% of your training.
Basically I see you using our Return to Running Protocol.
Basically this is three runs a week...so in your case, weeks 1-3 are elliptical time. Week 4-6 are elliptical to start, then finish on the treadmill. Weeks 7 and 8 are all treadmill.
Otherwise continue with your Zwift plan and add in 1 to 2 longer walks a week. Lunch break or even family hike. Time on your feet is good and strength building...
Okay, so a possible week looks like this: Monday - “run” Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday-zwift Wednesday likely a “run” Friday - “run” weekend - zwiftapalooza
Just so I’m clear, I am planning for the first few weeks to just use the time mentioned and go on the elliptical. I wasn’t planning on breaking it up into run/walk as I don’t think I need to at this point. I will plan on that until I get the green light to run from PT, which hopefully will time out like you have set out here. I think they have a return to running protocol too, so once I see what that’s all about we can see what makes the most sense.
Last, should I worry about swimming/vasa or yoga or maybe just as I feel up for it? This program seems light (which probably means it’s right) and I was curious about those two. All that sound good?
The plan sounds great. No expectations on that elliptical time whatsoever. Especially on Wednesday. It’s more about getting 18 of those sessions in in six weeks if you know what I mean. That’s very it’s up to you about the other swim stuff. There is certainly no urgency there whatsoever so I leave it to you. Be sure to track time and speed on the elliptical so you can see how that evolves.
P, Just a quick update. I am now in the week of 6 on 6 off on the run, I’m biking around 9 to 10 hours a week, and I’m committing to swimming 2-3 times a week. Now the details and questions.
First the run. I would say it feels ok. Not great but not awful. After each run I roll out everything now (with quite a humorous range of noises I might add) and follow that with 1-2 more rolling sessions that day and everyday to try to reduce the soreness/tightness/pain. It doesn’t fully solve it, but it gets me far enough I think. My question here, assuming no dramatic setbacks (I’m knocking on wood now) what is a realistic timeframe to be running a 10k, half Mary, and then longer? I’m not tied to any race or date, but want to try and set some realistic markers of progress.
The bike next. I’m digging zwift and I’m biking a lot. My quads are paying for it and I started to roll those now too after a PT visit revealed how jacked up they were. The early wake up calls are taking a toll and I’m trying to figure out how best to manage the desire to ride longer with work responsibilities and family activities. You know, the standard balance issues we all face. Here my question is have I built it up too fast? And do I need to consider scaling back some to accommodate the reintroduction of running?
Lastly Vasa. I’m in week 3 of just doing 30 minutes on DD2. I promised myself not to rush it, largely because I don’t have to. Likely next week I will start to mix in DD2 to get back to that as my standard as well as some intervals to work on adding gears/some pop.
Let me know now what you think on the above. I am starting to look at some half’s in the back half of the year, but until my running is just that, it’s likely just a fantasy exercise.
@Scott Giljum - Thanks for the check in and sorry for the delay here...no power and then this injury thing have set me off plan.
The Run - I think that pain and tolerance will continue to be your guide. There are two things happening here. First you are returning from surgery. Second your body is "ramping back up" the fitness. They are both challenging...IOW you are rehabbing, you are rebuilding. So I don't want to be too aggressive.
According to Strava you have gone from 0 miles to 10 miles in six weeks. That's pretty good. I recommend the following progression. Lower run weeks = more biking. And lower mileage doesn't mean all slow running, but it should give you room to run faster as you go. You shouldn't need 4 runs a week until the week of 4/9...unless you think that capping runs at 3 miles might get you more "good" running...your call!
3/05: 10 miles
3/12: 12 miles
3/19: 14 miles
3/26: 10 miles
4/02: 14 miles
4/09: 16 miles
4/16: 10 miles
4/23: 15 miles
4/30: 18 miles
5/07: 20 miles
The Bike - Yes, you need to limit the early wake ups to 2x a week and maybe 1x on weekend. It's easy to over achieve here but honestly, think you can get in about 200 miles a week (GREAT for this time of year) without too much work. On the "down" run weeks you can bike a bit longer (but not harder).
So I say you "fix" the race stuff to 3 hard efforts a week...the rest are just endurance miles in the 2.5 to 3.0 range. Work, but not HARD work. Based on Strava you are already there right now.
The Vasa - Your secret weapon! I say keep it at 3 x 30...this is great maintenance and should (hopefully) be fairly low cost. Now the only think is to make sure that you are consistent here. Some time at DD2 is great.
Overall - I think the run is moving more than you think, but since you are in it, it feels too slow. Just turn that part of your brain off and instead focus on doing everything you can through say 6/1. There will always be a race that you can get in to...no need to force anything. It's not like you are missing motivation!!!!
Ok @Coach Patrick but one clarifying question. I am still following the return to running protocol with this week the 7 walk 7 run. I am planning on continuing to follow that for the remaining three weeks (unless you suggest I change). After that, I assume I can just straight run, but what is a reasonable time for the run, 30 minutes, 45, whatever? Part of this process for me is also about redefining what is “normal “ at least for now. But it’s been so long since my run fitness was this poor that I don’t know what makes sense.
Also I am happy to report the running does continue to feel better. I agree with your assessment on that front but patience has never been a strong suit. This injury has helped me better develop that, but now that I’m so close (at least relatively) I’m wanting more pace to it. I’m dealing with that, but I also am acknowledging that it’s there.
Let me know now your thoughts on the run progression when you get a chance. I hope the back feels better and it appears you have officially reached the point where you can tell your kids they are too big for you to pick them up!
Sorry I missed this earlier! I will be OK with you doing several 30 minute runs in the first week. It’s more a function of looking at your total time spent actually running from the run walk protocol and then carry that forward.
Again, frequency is your friend here. Maybe you can find happiness in running often even if it isn’t “fast” yet.
Ok @Coach Patrick another quick check in. Two questions for you as I am now on my own (no more PT) and I’m through the return to running protocol. With that in mind, what should my running program look like? I ran Monday and will tomorrow and Sunday like you suggested. What about next week (as you have mentioned the first couple of weeks are particularly sensitive time) and then what after that?
Second, now that I’m getting back, and considering what my work has been the last few months, what would a reasonable week look like? I still have no set races or end game, so we don’t have to create a set build but wanted some feedback there.
Lastly, take this as proof I still know where the forums are located!
@Scott Giljum - So pumped for you now that you’re out of your “run jail” time. Yes, this period is still critical for transition. I would love to see 3 to 4 runs a week (three for the first two weeks) in that 4 to 4 1/2 mile range. Nothing flashy.
In fact, you might even want to just put heart rate on the dial and make sure you peg that certain number. That will allow your pieces to drop on their own without you forcing them that is the number one thing we have to watch out for – chasing paces!
In terms of a basic week, I see three runs, four bikes, and two swims.
The runs are as I have outlined above, the bikes are too hard short races with the total workout no longer than an hour. One ABP-like race with a good warm-up such as the MGCC ride. And then just one study easy ride. Something like the night train but without the mountain. Two Point Five all day long Lalala. No goals here and there’s nothing to be gained by pushing it. If you hit that first day of the week and you’re tired, then I would just take Sunday off. We still need to give enough room to your body to allow the run to reenter the picture so that’s why this easier for thrive become so important as well as the need to make it optional. Feel free to map out how you would space things and we can go from there.
@Coach Patrick I had a quick question for you. What would be a recommended progression to build back up run mileage? I did 19 this week which (sadly) is the most post surgery. With that distance, my legs have been a bit sore but nothing off the charts.
On the broader level, I wasn’t seeing the progress on leg strength and flexibility I was hoping for at this point so I have been doing a lot of yoga hoping to get both. I’ve kept up the running so that I don’t have to start that process again. I’m hoping to start to add back in some bike, but right now the yoga and running seems like just enough stress, certainly not too much.
@Scott Giljum - I know 19 miles sounds terrible, but you should know that I’ve only run longer than 19 miles once this year myself! And I’m healthy!
I went to your Strava profile, image below. We have three weeks of building so now it’s a week of rest. I really want you to get into that mindset of run work phase / run recovery phase.
This week should be something like 12 miles, or four 3 mile runs. This is just a maintenance. For the run but should give you an opportunity to push the bike a little bit more. And maybe double down on yoga for this one week.
Next week he would run 18, then 20 and 20. Then we rest again, this time at 15 miles. Get the idea? Would love to have you around 25 miles a week for the “work” phase when we had July. No need for you to run more than 25 miles a week this season.
I was thinking I needed a lighter week, but wasn’t sure what that number looked like so thanks for the clarity there. I swear I’m fighting the antsy urge to dial things up; I know that won’t end well. I’m good with that plan, basically a few 5k type runs.
So question. I can only imagine how many of these dumb “can I” type of questions you deal with, but I bet a lot. As with many of these, someone is trying to talk me into an event in mid-November. The event is a trail race deal with pretty much every distance from 5k up to 50 miles. With that in mind, what distance would be possible by that point? I’m assuming no hitches as we go (a possibility I recognize). I also am willing to say no, it’s just not a good idea yet. I am asking honestly because my ability to properly manage training volume increases smartly by myself has never been my strong suit and I have a hard time picturing what I can do while being reasonable about it. Basically I need a sanity/reasonability check before I answer. And don’t worry about how tactful you are with your response, I’m ready for everything from here’s how we go forward to what the hell have you been smoking (and worse, just not appropriate for type). Thanks as always.
Going easier isn’t easy, and believe me, I get it. I think it’s important to remember that there is still some basic fragility here that we have to continue to manage until we reach the point where you’re strong. I bet there’s a great quote out there somewhere where someone says “there is a fine line between strong and broken“ but you get the idea.
I’m certainly not against you doing some kind of epic event like that. After all, why the hell did you do the surgery and take care of yourself in the first place?
The big? For me it’s just how it’s going to affect you. I don’t know how much trail running you’ve done, but my guess is not very much at this point. Maybe after this next phase of building recovery, we start working in some easier runs on the trails so you have a chance to see what that feels like for you. It would also be helpful to know just how technical this trail series is.
If it’s easier for you we can kind a map out a progression for the run across the year that’s a little bit longer than just the next month. Once you give me some dates on that run as well as what other events you have planned between now and then. Don’t forget to include some solid biking as that’s the best complementary activity for aerobic development but you have in your toolkit right now.
P, First, mapping out a plan would be great. The event is Nov 17-18 (the 50k and 50 miler are the first day I believe with the other events the next day). I have been trying to find more info on the trail itself, but so far the most I see is a 2 out of 5 stars, so not bad.
As for my trail running, I had done a fair amount before the surgery but only a couple so far since. And the trail I was on was pretty easy/not very technical. I have been looking to add it back in the mix more because I like it and will need to build the confidence again.
And im planning on adding back in the biking for just that reason. My hope at this point is three or four times a week until the running gets a bit larger. Then adjust as needed.
We have time, let me know what you think longer term when you can. Thanks P!
OK, I have put this in the hopper and will take a look at it this week. I don’t think we need to do anything amazing, but it would be nice to have a little bit more of a deliberate progression!
Sorry to take so long to get to this. You have about 24 weeks to go...and that's plenty of time.
So what I am thinking is 8 weeks of "prep" and then 16 weeks of the Ultraplan (we'd have to modify it).
The prep phase should be the Bike Focus plan (6 weeks). I'd like a bit more biking as you build up to transition to a more run focused program.
We then hack the runs to be:
Mon = OFF / Swim
Tue = Brick
Wed = Run an hour Steady
Thu = Brick
Fri = Strides (optional swim)
Sat = Bike, no run. I like a longer bike here in 3 to 4 hours.
Sun = Long Run day.
Targets are two-fold:
#1 - Mileage between 18 and 24 (18 for recovering). #2 - The long run building to 90 minutes...split long run could be best on the weekend if you can. Especially as you build up.
Then we get to the Ultra plan, and we can hack as we get there.
First, no worries on getting back now. As you said, we have plenty of time.
Ok, so just to be clear/I make sure we are on the same page. For the next six weeks, we are looking at using the bike focus as the basis, as I see it as something like this: Mon - Swim/Yoga/Off (just one) Tue - Kiss race, run over lunch (say, 30 minutes or so) Wed - Hour run Thur - See Tuesday Friday - Run with strides, probably similar to Tuesday and Thursday time/distance. Swim as I want/need Sat - Bike day, 3-4 hours. Are you thinking steady riding? Or does it matter much? Sunday - Long run day, start with 60 minutes. Maybe something like 60 for two weeks then split 40, 40 for two weeks, then 60 and 30 for two weeks.
A few questions: 1. I would assume I should try and get as much of the running on trails as possible. That said, those miles are slower and harder to get to (since it isn't right out my door). Is that a safe assumption? I can probably make the Friday and Sunday runs trail based with some consistency. The lunch runs maybe, depending on schedule.
2. Based on the training plan you have me on, I assume we are looking for some intensity from the rides, which is why I put in the kiss races. If that should be steady instead, let me know.
3. Next week I am out of town leaving Thursday morning (I should be able to get in a ride, probably long, before I go), and not getting back until later on Sunday. Should I just shift things around to accommodate?
4. After the six weeks, I assume we will back it down for a week, safe to assume?
5. Fairly unrelated to all of this (though it is swim related), When I vasa, or to be more accurate, after I vasa, the inside of my right elbow hurts. I have never had tennis elbow, but I assume this is what it feels like. Any thoughts on what is going on there (other than I am getting old)?
As always, thanks for the help with this. It feels good to have a bit of a goal again.
You can limit your trail running to the weekends or times during the week when you were closer to a trail. Otherwise you can run on the grass next to the sidewalk. The key here is to remember that we’re not trying to run with speed, you are just ultra running and getting the time in.
Yes, we want the intensity on the bike, not the run. Those kiss races or the equivalent are perfect.
Do what you can to shift things around as you travel. I’m OK if you run more frequently during that time, just remember to keep the intensity fairly low. Enjoy running some new places!
I am undecided as to whether or not we will back things down after six weeks. Let’s see how you feel.
Your voss a question it’s a good one. Sounds to me like you are catching with the elbow, but also pulling with it. Might be a good idea for you to stretch your lats a bit before you Vasa and as part of your warm-up make sure that your catch transfers to you back before you pull. Make sense?
Got it, slow running and intense biking. A few follow up questions then: 1. Is a 50 mile race on that November day too much or possible? All caveats apply on how things go, stay healthy etc., but can I build to that without significant risk of injury by trying too much too fast? 2. The Saturday bike- intensity here as well? 3-4 hours last weekend had me hurting (in a good way) at fairly steady. I can work in intensity, just wanted to determine priority. 3. I will google to see what I find, but if you have a lay stretch or two you like, if you could let me know what that is, I would appreciate it.
Glad and to see you and the gang demolished the week in CO. Now I suspect you will have to demolish the honey do and Mariah do lists! Thanks again as always!
Yes, I think you will be able to handle the 50 miler. You won’t be sitting in a land speed record, but I don’t think that’s the point. We need to have a big carrots out there as motivation for you. The trick is to not get too aggressive with your training, and do anything that will prevent you from being ready yet another case of how you are your own worst enemy.
For right now, I don’t really recommend a high intensity on the weekend. The endurance is what you need. If you had a mountain bike, I would be sending you all onto the fire roads for lots of good aerobic time with some short bursts as you climb hills. Consider this cycling the work that’s laying the foundation which your run will eventually pick up. At the very least, give it until the July before we do anything aggressive on the weekend.
I personally don’t have any stretches dealing with my elbow. Like I said, it sounds to me like you’re leading the pool with the elbow first versus executing the catch. In other words, if we looked at you from the side as you were pulling back your elbow will be the first thing to come back and your fingers would be trailing it. We need to execute a catch where your fingers are down and your forearm is perpendicular to the ground... and then you pull back. This might be a good question for the team and the general discussion forum so you get some input from actual swimmers. Yes, I’ll pull into your homework for me right now, just trying to keep my head above water after 31+ hours of training last week. 😱
@Coach Patrick , so things have been going fairly well. I am feeling some fatigue, but that will happen when you are coming back from not much. I have been running 5 days a week, biking 3 (with a long one on Saturday) and swim once or twice a week. I have been trying to get in more trails than road, but time on the feet is the more important part. I have also started to take the stairs (all 4 plus flights of them) and have been trying to stand more in general. Again, all in all, things seem to be going well.
I'm writing to see what is next. I am planning on finishing this week and then executing next. I will be on vacation the 14th to the 21st, but should have plenty of time to run. I know when we first talked, you thought some modification of the 50 mile plan as likely what was needed. So I am planning on loading up the 50 mile plan, but what modifications do you suggest? As always, thanks for the help and have a great 4th!
I think the first modification we should make us some downtime. Can you run frequently on vacation but not for much time? Sounds like your body could use a little break. Let me know what you think about that. I will take a look at the larger plan over the weekend for you. Happy fourth.
My plan had been to have a lighter run week next week before we leave while trying to keep bike equal. I figured that would serve two needs. One, I need a “backed off” week on running (I was thinking around 20 miles only) and two would allow for more miles on vacation since no bike. Either way, I can do less on vacation if needed. That would not be an issue.
Yes, let's take it down to 20miles this week. That means next week could be a 30-mile week. I'd like to see that as 6 x 5 miles or 5 x 6 miles. That's pretty beefy for you at this point. Note you might need to do 3 days, off day, 3 days...and even take a light run week next week (25 would be ok). Remember you'll still have a few weeks of "prep" before the 16 week plan itself...so that would mean a few 30 mile weeks if we can (you might not need that lighter week back).
The Ultra plan is biased to two long weekend runs...I would likely split that up for now to Wed / Sat so you have recovery time afterwards. I would also factor in two days off (after long runs) in the early block of 4 weeks. We can talk about weekend hike time as a compliement to running (hiking still builds durability) as well as what some longer rides might do for you in terms of total exercise / training prep.
You said "orally". That would have touched of quite a flurry of comments on the GroupMe. I have jumped into Final Surge and added the ultra plan with my target end date. I will plan on running light this week and then pick it up next week as you laid out. I won't have access to the bike, so hopefully the crossover will work well enough to get me through the week.
In general, when should I be thinking about specificity versus just getting in time/miles? I am good with whatever you lay out. I'm sure it will get me to the start line in relatively good shape and ready to roll.
Sorry man, too much multitasking! What do you mean when you say specificity versus just running? In many ways, there is not very much of a distraction when training for a 50 mile run!
No worries. Sorry I wasn't very clear. What I mean by specificity is running trails vs just running (road, trails, whatever). Is there a point where I should make extra efforts to get to the trails vs just thinking I need to go run, even if that means road miles because it is easier (I have roads right out my door, trails I have to drive to). Hopefully that clears up what I am asking.
Comments
OK, so here are the details now. I just saw the doctor last week where I was told I could put weight on the foot as long as I keep it in the boot. I don't start PT or any of that until at least another month when I go back to the doctor. I was told I could swim, though the doctor and I agreed getting on and off the pool deck is probably a little too dicey right now, so I will stick with straight vasa. (On a side note, I am curious to see what I can do in the pool at this point as I generally feel much stronger and wonder how that will translate). I can bike, as long as it is only the trainer and no standing on the peddles or pressing where it will put stress on the ankle. Basically, if it is going to engage the calf muscle in any significant way, don't do it. And I don't get to run at all until about 6 months post surgery, which is the March/April time frame. On the biking, as with many of the things, the doctor basically said I could do it to pain. Basically if it hurts, stop.
So now I am trying to temper my new found freedom knowing that I am far from back. I am thinking I will swim three or four days (which is pretty much what I have been doing since the surgery) and add in biking three or four times a week. I don't really plan to do much more than an hour in any given sitting, at least for the next week or two. I figure just adding that stress back in will be enough to wipe me out for now. Again, at this point I don't know that I need any true coach advise, though I will always be happy to receive feedback. I am still very much playing it by feel until the New Year when I am more likely to be cut a bit more loose.
At at this point just to let you know where I’m at, I feel pretty good on the bike, have been haphazard with the swim and feel fine on the elliptical, though I am just at the start of that. Let me know what you think and Ride On!
I like what you are dong on Zwift, and want you to keep that as 75% to 80% of your training.
Basically I see you using our Return to Running Protocol.
Basically this is three runs a week...so in your case, weeks 1-3 are elliptical time. Week 4-6 are elliptical to start, then finish on the treadmill. Weeks 7 and 8 are all treadmill.
Otherwise continue with your Zwift plan and add in 1 to 2 longer walks a week. Lunch break or even family hike. Time on your feet is good and strength building...
Thoughts?
~ Coach P
Monday - “run”
Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday-zwift
Wednesday likely a “run”
Friday - “run”
weekend - zwiftapalooza
Just so I’m clear, I am planning for the first few weeks to just use the time mentioned and go on the elliptical. I wasn’t planning on breaking it up into run/walk as I don’t think I need to at this point. I will plan on that until I get the green light to run from PT, which hopefully will time out like you have set out here. I think they have a return to running protocol too, so once I see what that’s all about we can see what makes the most sense.
Last, should I worry about swimming/vasa or yoga or maybe just as I feel up for it? This program seems light (which probably means it’s right) and I was curious about those two. All that sound good?
Just a quick update. I am now in the week of 6 on 6 off on the run, I’m biking around 9 to 10 hours a week, and I’m committing to swimming 2-3 times a week. Now the details and questions.
First the run. I would say it feels ok. Not great but not awful. After each run I roll out everything now (with quite a humorous range of noises I might add) and follow that with 1-2 more rolling sessions that day and everyday to try to reduce the soreness/tightness/pain. It doesn’t fully solve it, but it gets me far enough I think. My question here, assuming no dramatic setbacks (I’m knocking on wood now) what is a realistic timeframe to be running a 10k, half Mary, and then longer? I’m not tied to any race or date, but want to try and set some realistic markers of progress.
The bike next. I’m digging zwift and I’m biking a lot. My quads are paying for it and I started to roll those now too after a PT visit revealed how jacked up they were. The early wake up calls are taking a toll and I’m trying to figure out how best to manage the desire to ride longer with work responsibilities and family activities. You know, the standard balance issues we all face. Here my question is have I built it up too fast? And do I need to consider scaling back some to accommodate the reintroduction of running?
Lastly Vasa. I’m in week 3 of just doing 30 minutes on DD2. I promised myself not to rush it, largely because I don’t have to. Likely next week I will start to mix in DD2 to get back to that as my standard as well as some intervals to work on adding gears/some pop.
Let me know now what you think on the above. I am starting to look at some half’s in the back half of the year, but until my running is just that, it’s likely just a fantasy exercise.
The Run - I think that pain and tolerance will continue to be your guide. There are two things happening here. First you are returning from surgery. Second your body is "ramping back up" the fitness. They are both challenging...IOW you are rehabbing, you are rebuilding. So I don't want to be too aggressive.
According to Strava you have gone from 0 miles to 10 miles in six weeks. That's pretty good. I recommend the following progression. Lower run weeks = more biking. And lower mileage doesn't mean all slow running, but it should give you room to run faster as you go. You shouldn't need 4 runs a week until the week of 4/9...unless you think that capping runs at 3 miles might get you more "good" running...your call!
- 3/05: 10 miles
- 3/12: 12 miles
- 3/19: 14 miles
- 3/26: 10 miles
- 4/02: 14 miles
- 4/09: 16 miles
- 4/16: 10 miles
- 4/23: 15 miles
- 4/30: 18 miles
- 5/07: 20 miles
The Bike - Yes, you need to limit the early wake ups to 2x a week and maybe 1x on weekend. It's easy to over achieve here but honestly, think you can get in about 200 miles a week (GREAT for this time of year) without too much work. On the "down" run weeks you can bike a bit longer (but not harder).So I say you "fix" the race stuff to 3 hard efforts a week...the rest are just endurance miles in the 2.5 to 3.0 range. Work, but not HARD work. Based on Strava you are already there right now.
The Vasa - Your secret weapon! I say keep it at 3 x 30...this is great maintenance and should (hopefully) be fairly low cost. Now the only think is to make sure that you are consistent here. Some time at DD2 is great.
Overall - I think the run is moving more than you think, but since you are in it, it feels too slow. Just turn that part of your brain off and instead focus on doing everything you can through say 6/1. There will always be a race that you can get in to...no need to force anything. It's not like you are missing motivation!!!!
Also I am happy to report the running does continue to feel better. I agree with your assessment on that front but patience has never been a strong suit. This injury has helped me better develop that, but now that I’m so close (at least relatively) I’m wanting more pace to it. I’m dealing with that, but I also am acknowledging that it’s there.
Let me know now your thoughts on the run progression when you get a chance. I hope the back feels better and it appears you have officially reached the point where you can tell your kids they are too big for you to pick them up!
Second, now that I’m getting back, and considering what my work has been the last few months, what would a reasonable week look like? I still have no set races or end game, so we don’t have to create a set build but wanted some feedback there.
Lastly, take this as proof I still know where the forums are located!
In fact, you might even want to just put heart rate on the dial and make sure you peg that certain number. That will allow your pieces to drop on their own without you forcing them that is the number one thing we have to watch out for – chasing paces!
In terms of a basic week, I see three runs, four bikes, and two swims.
The runs are as I have outlined above, the bikes are too hard short races with the total workout no longer than an hour. One ABP-like race with a good warm-up such as the MGCC ride. And then just one study easy ride. Something like the night train but without the mountain. Two Point Five all day long Lalala. No goals here and there’s nothing to be gained by pushing it. If you hit that first day of the week and you’re tired, then I would just take Sunday off. We still need to give enough room to your body to allow the run to reenter the picture so that’s why this easier for thrive become so important as well as the need to make it optional. Feel free to map out how you would space things and we can go from there.
On the broader level, I wasn’t seeing the progress on leg strength and flexibility I was hoping for at this point so I have been doing a lot of yoga hoping to get both. I’ve kept up the running so that I don’t have to start that process again. I’m hoping to start to add back in some bike, but right now the yoga and running seems like just enough stress, certainly not too much.
Thanks as always P!
I went to your Strava profile, image below. We have three weeks of building so now it’s a week of rest. I really want you to get into that mindset of run work phase / run recovery phase.
This week should be something like 12 miles, or four 3 mile runs. This is just a maintenance. For the run but should give you an opportunity to push the bike a little bit more. And maybe double down on yoga for this one week.
Next week he would run 18, then 20 and 20. Then we rest again, this time at 15 miles. Get the idea? Would love to have you around 25 miles a week for the “work” phase when we had July. No need for you to run more than 25 miles a week this season.
So question. I can only imagine how many of these dumb “can I” type of questions you deal with, but I bet a lot. As with many of these, someone is trying to talk me into an event in mid-November. The event is a trail race deal with pretty much every distance from 5k up to 50 miles. With that in mind, what distance would be possible by that point? I’m assuming no hitches as we go (a possibility I recognize). I also am willing to say no, it’s just not a good idea yet. I am asking honestly because my ability to properly manage training volume increases smartly by myself has never been my strong suit and I have a hard time picturing what I can do while being reasonable about it. Basically I need a sanity/reasonability check before I answer. And don’t worry about how tactful you are with your response, I’m ready for everything from here’s how we go forward to what the hell have you been smoking (and worse, just not appropriate for type). Thanks as always.
The big? For me it’s just how it’s going to affect you. I don’t know how much trail running you’ve done, but my guess is not very much at this point. Maybe after this next phase of building recovery, we start working in some easier runs on the trails so you have a chance to see what that feels like for you. It would also be helpful to know just how technical this trail series is.
If it’s easier for you we can kind a map out a progression for the run across the year that’s a little bit longer than just the next month. Once you give me some dates on that run as well as what other events you have planned between now and then. Don’t forget to include some solid biking as that’s the best complementary activity for aerobic development but you have in your toolkit right now.
As for my trail running, I had done a fair amount before the surgery but only a couple so far since. And the trail I was on was pretty easy/not very technical. I have been looking to add it back in the mix more because I like it and will need to build the confidence again.
And im planning on adding back in the biking for just that reason. My hope at this point is three or four times a week until the running gets a bit larger. Then adjust as needed.
We have time, let me know what you think longer term when you can. Thanks P!
Sorry to take so long to get to this. You have about 24 weeks to go...and that's plenty of time.
So what I am thinking is 8 weeks of "prep" and then 16 weeks of the Ultraplan (we'd have to modify it).
The prep phase should be the Bike Focus plan (6 weeks). I'd like a bit more biking as you build up to transition to a more run focused program.
We then hack the runs to be:
- Mon = OFF / Swim
- Tue = Brick
- Wed = Run an hour Steady
- Thu = Brick
- Fri = Strides (optional swim)
- Sat = Bike, no run. I like a longer bike here in 3 to 4 hours.
- Sun = Long Run day.
Targets are two-fold:#1 - Mileage between 18 and 24 (18 for recovering).
#2 - The long run building to 90 minutes...split long run could be best on the weekend if you can. Especially as you build up.
Then we get to the Ultra plan, and we can hack as we get there.
Ok, so just to be clear/I make sure we are on the same page. For the next six weeks, we are looking at using the bike focus as the basis, as I see it as something like this:
Mon - Swim/Yoga/Off (just one)
Tue - Kiss race, run over lunch (say, 30 minutes or so)
Wed - Hour run
Thur - See Tuesday
Friday - Run with strides, probably similar to Tuesday and Thursday time/distance. Swim as I want/need
Sat - Bike day, 3-4 hours. Are you thinking steady riding? Or does it matter much?
Sunday - Long run day, start with 60 minutes. Maybe something like 60 for two weeks then split 40, 40 for two weeks, then 60 and 30 for two weeks.
A few questions:
1. I would assume I should try and get as much of the running on trails as possible. That said, those miles are slower and harder to get to (since it isn't right out my door). Is that a safe assumption? I can probably make the Friday and Sunday runs trail based with some consistency. The lunch runs maybe, depending on schedule.
2. Based on the training plan you have me on, I assume we are looking for some intensity from the rides, which is why I put in the kiss races. If that should be steady instead, let me know.
3. Next week I am out of town leaving Thursday morning (I should be able to get in a ride, probably long, before I go), and not getting back until later on Sunday. Should I just shift things around to accommodate?
4. After the six weeks, I assume we will back it down for a week, safe to assume?
5. Fairly unrelated to all of this (though it is swim related), When I vasa, or to be more accurate, after I vasa, the inside of my right elbow hurts. I have never had tennis elbow, but I assume this is what it feels like. Any thoughts on what is going on there (other than I am getting old)?
As always, thanks for the help with this. It feels good to have a bit of a goal again.
Yes, we want the intensity on the bike, not the run. Those kiss races or the equivalent are perfect.
1. Is a 50 mile race on that November day too much or possible? All caveats apply on how things go, stay healthy etc., but can I build to that without significant risk of injury by trying too much too fast?
2. The Saturday bike- intensity here as well? 3-4 hours last weekend had me hurting (in a good way) at fairly steady. I can work in intensity, just wanted to determine priority.
3. I will google to see what I find, but if you have a lay stretch or two you like, if you could let me know what that is, I would appreciate it.
Glad and to see you and the gang demolished the week in CO. Now I suspect you will have to demolish the honey do and Mariah do lists! Thanks again as always!
I'm writing to see what is next. I am planning on finishing this week and then executing next. I will be on vacation the 14th to the 21st, but should have plenty of time to run. I know when we first talked, you thought some modification of the 50 mile plan as likely what was needed. So I am planning on loading up the 50 mile plan, but what modifications do you suggest? As always, thanks for the help and have a great 4th!
- Also, please make the upgrade to Final Surge (https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/sso?Target=/discussion/24803/endurance-nation-training-plans-have-a-new-interactive-home-with-final-surge) as I can modify your plan in there vs just "orally" here.
~ Coach PIn general, when should I be thinking about specificity versus just getting in time/miles? I am good with whatever you lay out. I'm sure it will get me to the start line in relatively good shape and ready to roll.