@Coach Patrick Oh, totally forget. Not just to tell/ask you, but forgot I was supposed to do it.
This Saturday a local cycling group has their annual Ride For Life, which has a 114 mile single loop ride available, including special needs bags if one wants. The elevation gain is very close to Choo. But more importantly, with a good number of 112 mile rides on the schedule in the EN Full plan, I was thinking it would be good to do a recon ride on the route to see if it is suitable for solo century rides as I could mark off where all the gas stations and such are along the way for refueling. Instead of doing triple loops on my normal 34 mile route that has a bit of in town riding near the car for refueling. Plus the 114 mile route starts about 4 miles from my house, so I could actually on training rides leave from my house and not even have to drive to it.
Advisable to do a 114 mile ride on Saturday or am I just being stupid? Tell me no and I will pass.
@Brian Terwilliger - Do it. 100% do it. Absolutely. But Thursday and Sunday are OFF so we can "make room" for this in your body. Ok? I like how that could work out for you logistically...and a catered ride, FUN.
As for the next five weeks, I don't think you need a full Get Fast plan to get better. I like the idea of you doing the Bike Focus plan instead, setting it to end on 7/16. That puts you, starting next week, on Week 2...there are three runs in the program, so I could see you add some brick fun on the weekends if they work.
Notice I said nothing about swimming. No need. You'll have 12 weeks to swim it out to CHOO...this is BIKE time, with some run consistency. I think that you can also just ride it out with friends or go long on any given Saturday...there's enough work during the week that I'll be okay with that.
@Coach Patrick Works for me on the Bike Focus block. I will probably throw in some swimming just for the hell of it. And then maybe not. Do I ride out the Bike Focus all the way to 07/16 or switch to the EN Full Advanced on 07/03 as is in my season road map?
@Brian Terwilliger - you are correct, July 2 should be the last day of your time as planned, and the new transition. Depending on what your availability is the weekend you might be able to get another long session in. At the end of the day it's not a ton of time, but it's how you use that time that matters.
Great 114.5 mile loop. Only 4,000 feet of climbing with the majority in the 2nd half. And majority on backwoods country roads with little traffic. +1 for safety. -1 for if crap goes wrong, you're stuck out in the middle of nowhere. Well spaced gas stations as well if I wanted to go and ride it solo and just get water to mix with my Infinit.
@Coach Patrick But I do have some real questions here. Decided to try some actual tri shoes. Got the Specialized Trivent Expert as they are on sale. I've searched the threads, and I'm sure the info is there somewhere, but I couldn't find it. There is so much to sift through. So the question is, cleat placement. I use SPD-SL cleats and Shimano pedals. Nothing fancy, just basic stuff. Works for me. I use the 'yellow' cleats so they have a good amount of float, which I guess I like. I don't get knee or ankle pain, so I suspect the float is doing its job. But to get to the question, where on the shoe should the cleat go? There has to be an optimum position for it. The shoe has 3 holes which unlike my road shoes are not adjustable. They are where they are and they are not moving. I put my cleats on them and knocked out yesterdays 3 x 10' Z4 (week 2 bike focus block Thursday session). All was good. But really, all I did was put the cleats on, lock em down with the bolts and get on the trainer. While riding my brain started thinking about this. For maximum power transfer efficiency there needs to be an optimum cleat placement on the shoe. Is there a way to determine this short of moving them around every ride till one thinks they have found the spot? Or is it basically, hey, my feet feel good, I'm comfortable, and the bike is going forward, good enough? That can't be it. Do I need to just move them forward toward the front of the foot for a ride or 2, then move them more toward the back for a few and do some comparison on how my feet feel and how the power numbers were? Maybe related, maybe not to helping with cleat position, I find if I have my heel higher up, creating more 'pressure' on my forefoot/toes my power numbers are a bit higher at the same RPM/Gear than if I drop my heel to 'scrap mud'. Would this lead to a moving the cleat more toward the front of the mounting range as likely better? Or would it actually be the opposite? No idea here. But obviously there are some real world physics that determine these things. Thoughts? Ideas? A link to a discussion on this that I couldn't find?
And now for a fun but serious question.
New bike. I currently ride a 2015 Felt B14 in a 54. All parts as it came from the factory (other than a Stages power meter and Flo 60/90 on race day). The only issue I have with it is that as I have become a better and stronger cyclist and able to maintain a more aggressive position for hours on end I think the 54 may have become a touch on the small side. Or maybe not, don't know.
My LBS has a 'deal' currently on the Cervelo P5 Six (Black not Red, link below to see all it comes with and how its set up). Possibly only with the 56 size left available as they have sold a gazillion of them at the price of $3,999. Apparently this is a great price. I may or may not get my 10% additional discount as a VIP Bike Customer on this discounted price. I believe you ride this bike. Yes? So questions. Will such a bike produce quantifiable and tangible performance benefits to such an extent to justify laying out $4K (plus a new power meter as my Stages won't transfer) assuming fit on a 56 works as I understand people often size down on the P5 Six. One of my immediate concerns with the bike though as someone who knows jack squat about being a bike mechanic is the hydraulic breaks. I fear these may be an issue for maintenance and performance, and well functioning breaks are probably something important. Or is my fear unwarranted? Selling my wife on a new bike is very hard. She is of two positions on it. I can only race full distance every other year unless I KQ, my bike works fine, so outside of a KQ at Chattanooga, there is no IM in 2018, just HIMs and shorter all I want. So 2019, she feels the bike will have enough mileage and wear and tear on it that a new bike is at least justified to some extent. Her other mind is "if someone shows me that you are at your performance limit with your current equipment and you need to upgrade to reach your potential, then a bike is likely an acceptable investment."
To make my ramble even worse for you, I also really like the Felt IA 14 and IA 10. But worry that in 2 years Felts may not be what they currently are with the new ownership.
Here is the link to the P5. Also, I currently run a 50/34. Would the 52/36 be a plus or minus? Will have an 11/28 cassette on race days. Also, I believe the P5 is a good bit heavier than the B14. Increased weight negate possible aero improvement? I'm a good size guy, 175 pounds. Hoping to be 165 by Choo, but not banking on it.
You can skip over the cleat thing, think I have it figured out. Spent way too much time on google and youtube last night. So I'll throw a new and easy question at you to replace it. Saturday July 15th (week 10 EN Full Advanced), should I race a local Sprint Tri? Pretty big bike day on the calendar so I am leaning against it. Seems like a poor use of time as IM Choo gets closer. Could swap out the Sunday ABP for the Saturday RPP ride though. But still leaning toward the combination of the RPP + ABP weekend work being better. Or is the small test of a sprint and race experience worth it in the big picture?
And you should want your athletes to graduate from EN with a PhD in Triathlon!
@Brian Terwilliger - you are right, I want everyone to graduate with a PhD. No worries, I have a few minutes now so let's get this done!
Working in reverse order, here we go…
1. you have plenty of time until Chattanooga, let's keep things fun by having you do the Sprint on Saturday and then do the RPP ride on Sunday. That'll be a great combination of both fun and Hardwork that will keep you motivated and help continue your progression the season.
2. assuming the bike is well fit, and you've done things improperly, yes you will be faster. Your Felt is a good bike, the Cervelo P5 is a great bike. I don't think there will be a shelf life on how long you can ride it, as long as you maintain the components. I've had mine for several years now and don't plan on changing anytime soon. It is heavier but aerodynamic gains outweigh any such cost.
I can't answer your question about the hydraulic brakes as I do not have that model. From what I understand though, they're not that difficult to take care of. And if your local shop is selling it, then they know how to work on it. Hopefully you can transfer most of your components outside of your power meter.
I think you're strong enough to ride a 52/36, but the 50/34 is not hurting you. It's not just a bike, it is also better execution. Simply having the right gears on the bike doesn't mean that work for you unless you can get your bike up to speed and keep pushing those numbers.
Remember to, you can sell your felt to offset the cost and perhaps transfer some of the components as well. That is a great deal on a gray bike, as they make room for all of the crazy superbikes getting your hands on a good Cervelo at a great price is pretty sweet.
3. cleat placement should always be as far back towards your arches possible. There should be no thought to pushing down on your toes when pedaling a bicycle. You should only think about it as pushing your quads down; since your foot is attached to the pedal it drives the pedal around, done. The further forward the cleats, the more work you need to intentionally do with your calf muscles to keep the pressure on which is not worth it.
I've got problems. Big problems. And need big help. I can not do any of the run workouts as written or even close to how they are written. Why? As an example, yesterdays run off the bike was supposed to be Z2 out, Z3 Back, 4 x Strides, 35 minutes run time. It was 103 degrees with a dew point of 80. Ain't no way in hell I'm coming close to those paces. I did a 5K in Z1 while staving off death. Tuesdays 3 x 1 mile repeats in Z4? HA! It was 102 with a dew point of 74.
Seriously. I will end up in an ambulance if I attempt this stuff. It truly is all I can do to waffle between Z1 and TRP for any length of time. I know! Run in the morning! Ya. Todays split run at 5 AM it was 80 with 100% humidity. TRP for 50 minutes felt like a huge victory. Was supposed to go 70 with some Z2 and Z3 in there. Wasn't happening.
So here is my question. How much of this can/should I do on the treadmill and/or are there specific runs that may be best done on the treadmill so I can get in some fast running and higher cadence leg turnover? Obviously a good amount of running needs to be done out in this brutal heat because IM Choo may end up being an oven like last year. I don't mind running in the heat. It is what it is. But I don't see slogging along at Z1 over and over and over as the best option or best route to race day success. So what suggestions/guidance can you provide?
And I hear you are getting a Ventum. Lost the P5 love?
I'm having my local LBS price out a P5 Six all tricked out how I want it for me, though I may end up going with the new Premier Tactical. I'm intrigued by that thing.
On Edit: Forgot to add. Aug 4-13 I will likely not be able to swim What if anything should I add or modify during that time frame?
@brian Terwilliger - thanks for the update. I saw your dashboard pussy other day that made me smile. I think you and I are built very similarly we just happen to live in different parts of the country.
Bottom line is it's not just the effort that you want to do, it's the effort that your body experiences. Zone one in those types of conditions is the equivalent of an all out run. You may feel like you're not getting the muscular development you need, but truth be told your system is already running so hot that It can't do anymore. To put it another way, if you are exhausted and hurting at the end of the run, it was a good work out even if you couldn't hit some zone that a guy in New England said you should hit.
Actually, zone 1/ TRP running is fine. Many of our athletes simply do that without any of the "flash" in the arm and build. In your case I would plan on all zone one to TRP running except for your Tuesday interval run. That day you should get the treadmill and see what you can do it some air-conditioning or a fan.
One of the main reasons we created the run durability protocol is that help to make people faster without speed work. We are by no means Capping your speed - we are helping you dial-in a great pace and giving you room to excel at the bike just like on race day.
Yes I'm going with addendum, I still love my P5. Bottom line is I had not written in 18 months and I bet you can guess what happens to a bike that you don't ride for 18 months that lives in a basement that got flooded during a burst pipe disaster. The entire bike is seized and friggin toast. I am excited for my bedtime, but it's also the smart financial decision!
As you know, the last thing I'm worried about is you being away from this wind! You're already a great summer, and Chattanooga is so so unfriendly that you should have zero concerns. To compensate for a lack of swim time, you should make sure you hit the runs on Monday and Friday - usually those two days have both a swim in a run, so make sure you just get the run and maybe extending it by 15 minutes. At the end of the day swimming is not a massive place of training stress. You do NOT need to add in swim chords or do anything crazy.
Well here is a situation I have never encountered. Tomorrow is a "Big Day". 1 hour swim, 4 hour bike, 1 hour run. So here is the issue. The temp of the lake where I do my OWS (where IM Raleigh70.3 takes place) is 90 degrees! Yes. 90! In fact the 1 and 2 mile open water championships taking place there this weekend just sent out an email saying the races will be cancelled if the temp is above 88. So, question #1. At 90 degrees, ashcan the swim? Or just go super easy and put in the time without a care for pace and effort to still get some pre-fatigue on the body before the bike? I was planning on doing it at the lake vs pool. Because pool would require a 30 to 40 minute drive after the swim. And the outdoor pools are 90 anyway.
Question #2, jumping ahead a little. I always read well ahead of where I am in the training plan so my schedule and life can be somewhat planned out around whats coming up. Throughout the plan (EN Advanced Full) it says Zone 1 is race pace goal AND TRP is race pace goal. It flip flops between the two repeatedly. Which is actually the one that is the correct race pace goal during Ironman? Obviously I would be thrilled beyond belief to actually run the marathon with an average pace at my TRP (7:46 currently). Plus that would get me to my goal of a sub 3:30 IM marathon. Z1 is 8:24. But with both of them being called race day pace goal, and various runs being based on that in the plan, I'm a bit confused as to which one actually is.
I do think my zones are pretty accurate. Will likely skip the 5K test next week and do the split long run instead. Unless weather cooperates and its not 100 degrees with a dew point in the 80s. Running a 5K test in that is pretty risky I believe. Though I have pretty well acclimated to the heat and am running pretty strong in it without much issue. Maybe I could drop my zones a little. But likely only by a couple seconds, which is really a wash.
Also, went and got a new bike. New Cervelo P5 Six with a fancy upgrade to Rotor INPower 3D+ Crankset/Powermeter and 52/36 Q-Rings. Can't remember if it has an 11/23 or 11/25. Likely not enough gearing for Chattanooga. My race wheel has an 11/28. Should I swap in an 11/28 on the training wheel as well, or go with whichever of those it has and just muscle through the lower gearing on climbs during training? Or might an 11/25 be enough gears for Chattanooga? If it does have the 11/23, that's not good for Chattanooga for sure.
Big Day #2 report. Did the proscribed swim yesterday morning at indoor pool. Nailed it. Did 30 minutes easy in the 90 degree lake this morning to get swim time and some OWS in. 4 hour bike went great. Especially in 100 degree heat. New 20 minute power record for street riding according to my Garmin 520. 229 for one of the 25' repeats. Obviously do higher on trainer. But no intersections, downhills, turns, or cars on the trainer. Still rode my Felt as the Cervelo isn't set up yet. I do plan on flip flopping between them based on planned ride and using the Felt on the trainer most of the time.
When I finished the ride it was 107 degrees! Hey, lets go run for an hour! Well, I tried. I called it quits 30 minutes in. Just wasn't safe.
Looking forward to your answers/thoughts on the other stuff.
And on the new P5 Six. Looking at selling one of my guitars to fund either wheels or eTap. Which one would be best to go for? Or Just throw my Flo 90/60 set on it for race day with the Wheel Builder Aero Jacket on the rear? Or take the aero jacket off for Chattanooga?
@brian terwilliger - I saw your note on the dashboard about your day, and I was wondering if the water temperature was an error! That is ridiculous. I don't think I can sit in a bathtub that warm.
Based on my observations, I think you made a great set a decision for the big day. Our goal is to get the work in and to have you be studying… Hopefully on earthing any positional or nutritional issues regarding your current state of fitness. Given what you achieved, I think we are all systems go.
Overall, I want to make sure you are continuing to improve your ability to function in the heat. This isn't just to improve your training sessions but more so because it will give you one more tool in your arsenal on race day. If it's hot, you will be ready. If it's not hot, you'll know that it could've been worse!
OK, time to talk about the bike. Man that thing sounds like a race car! with the proximity to race day being what it is, I do not see a need to run test. I agree it is too risky.
Also, I think you should have the 28 on the back. You could survive with the 25, but why risk it? I would much rather have a gear that you can easily spin up any hill – 36/28 sounds like the best failsafe option.
I think you will be fine with your flow 60 on the front and the disc cover on the rear. If you do have that extra money, I would allocated the $$ to ETap although I'm not sure if you'll find anyone who has experience setting that up on a rotor crank? But I'm sure you can find someone to figure it out.
Thanks. Ya missed one though. Zone 1 or TRP. Which is actually the proscribed race pace for the marathon? The EN Full Advanced training plan says both and has runs based on whichever one it says that day.
There is a world of difference between running 7:46 plus 30 for the first 6 miles and 8:24 plus 30. If proscribed pace is Z1, going out at TRP would likely lead to disaster. If TRP, going out at Z1 wouldn't be bad, but would leave a ton of time on the table.
Wait did you mean I missed part of your 17 part question! Not sure how I did that.
Will vary the different efforts in training to challenge and to accommodate the other load that we have in both biking and swimming.
We don't recommend that you run with Pace on race day. I suggest you go to resources/Racing member Central/race execution for the half & full distance… When you get down to the run portion of the Iron Man section you will see that we recommend running by heart rate.
Basically you will run the first 6 miles of your Iron Man At the rate which you exit the bike. This will allow you to eat and drink without accumulating additional Heat when changing from cycling to running. After that point in time you can begin to work harder and bring the heart rate up. And the heart rate also increases simply due to fatigue and dehydration.
To be clear, we train with pace but we race with heart rate. You do not have any control over your pace on race day and it is a poor indicator of future performance within an Ironman.
IM Los Cabos on Nov 12th. How realistic is it to actually "race" this after racing Chattanooga on Sept 24th?
My aunt and uncle own a house on the bike course. So I have a place to stay. My cousin owns Sufferfest Beer and is at the event promoting her beer. They suggested I come down and do the race. But I don't want to go and just finish. My wife, in a moment of weakness said to go do it, but only if I'm going to try and win my AG.
The other part of the equation is getting my bike there! As you know, just got a new P5. From what I hear, its a nightmare to work on and take apart and put together. And Tribike Transport seems to be sold out for the race. Is there a particularly good bike case for it that will also hold the wheels?
How will you race down there will be a function of how Chattanooga goes. If you go all out across yourself on the run in Chattanooga. Technically it will be a good race for you as a strong swimmer, but you would likely have to revisit your nutrition plan to account for the heat and your peace and plan to account for the wind. The run is pretty straightforward and three loops and much friendlier than Chattanooga.
Maybe find out what the deferral options are first?
Past years Cabo hasn't come close to selling out. But this is the last year for the race so they might see a bump in registrations. With it being a less than popular race, may check my situation after Choo and decide my body isn't up to the challenge, or Damn, I feel awesome, lets go to Cabo.
Running by HR after the bike question. MY HR is super low on the bike. Like really low. I can hammer out a strong upper Z3 effort (or even be in the gap between Z3 and 4) and have an HR average of 120-122. To keep my HR at this level running, there will be no running. There will be walking. How much of a bump to HR is acceptable for the first 6 miles to hour of the run? A light jog puts me at 130-135 depending on terrain.
I have never ran by HR. I've always used pace. The only time I have used HR is as a limiter. I know my max HR I can sustain for hours during long training runs, marathons, and half marathons. @150-152. When its 100+ degrees and I hit 150, I know thats my max pace for the day, even if its Z1.
So with Camp Week and RR#1 coming up next weekend, is there a good window on the HR I should utilize for the running off the bike other than Avg HR for the last hour?
@brian terwilliger - I agree with your plan for Cabo, sounds like the best possible option.
Your question about the HR varilability on the bike and run is an interesting one.
I went back and looked at your Strava and I can see what you're saying. I don't know whether it's a function of being very efficient on the bike or very inefficient on the run or a desire to suffer on the run.
and I appreciate your openness to trying to use heart rate. I recommend we do some kind of a step system. Looking at your past runs those early miles do you have a fairly low heart rate as you get into it before it ramps up. So my thought is this:
*3 miles sub 130,
*3 miles sub 135,
* now you can start running between 135 and 140, or even 140 to 145 if the weather is cooperative.
* save that jet engine/hard work and effort for the last 6.2 miles when everyone else is running super slow.
If that works out, you will be a runaway freight train!
Let's test those initial steps in your next few workouts…
@brian terwilliger - I agree with your plan for Cabo, sounds like the best possible option.
Your question about the HR varilability on the bike and run is an interesting one.
I went back and looked at your Strava and I can see what you're saying. I don't know whether it's a function of being very efficient on the bike or very inefficient on the run or a desire to suffer on the run.
and I appreciate your openness to trying to use heart rate. I recommend we do some kind of a step system. Looking at your past runs those early miles do you have a fairly low heart rate as you get into it before it ramps up. So my thought is this:
*3 miles sub 130,
*3 miles sub 135,
* now you can start running between 135 and 140, or even 140 to 145 if the weather is cooperative.
* save that jet engine/hard work and effort for the last 6.2 miles when everyone else is running super slow.
If that works out, you will be a runaway freight train!
Let's test those initial steps in your next few workouts…
Running off the bike at 130BPM has been working great! Floating between Z1 and Z1+30 depending on the terrain. Letting it drift up to 135 and I'm sub 8 after a 100 mile bike! Awesome! But I think that may be a bit too much too soon on race day if I'm actually able to pull off such numbers. Unless you say otherwise and if I can run sub 8 at the proscribed HR to run sub 8. Here is my initial thoughts after having done some runs at 130BPM. Looking at the Choo run course, with the first 6-7 miles being the somewhat flat, I think I'll do my best to maintain 130 for that and when the hills for the second half of the loop arrive, then drift to 135 with a hard cap of 140. 2nd loop, try to maintain 135 to 140 for the flat. Hit mile 20 and drain the tank. But as Tyson said, everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face.
If you get this in time, great, if not, no worry.
Thursday, 3 hour long run. The write up is two totally different runs. One has 6 miles Z1, 9 miles TRP, 3 miles Z2. Then in the coaches notes, is 6 miles TRP, 9 miles Z2, 3 miles Z3. Which is it? Or is it pick and choose?
Weather is looking super horrible for the rest of the week. I may have to do the Thursday long run on a treadmill. If that is the case, I will go with the faster intervals. Plus running for 3 hours in a pouring rain, while not something I oppose, may lead to foot issues that could impact the weekends long rides. Soaking wet sneakers can tear your feet up. That would be bad. And with the horrible forecast, if it holds, looks like an awesome 4+ hour trainer ride on Saturday! Though honestly, its a far better workout than doing it on the road, so I'm kinda looking forward to it in a sick and twisted way. And if there is the projected thunderstorms, the swim for Fri, Sat, or Sunday may get ash canned. Stupid pools close for thunder. And I'm not swimming in a lake during a Thunderstorm. But will try to get it in Friday morning if possible before work. And if either weekend day allows a swim, do it again.
2nd Race Rehearsal coming up next weekend. My first one was a shit show total waste of a weekend. Hopefully this one goes way better.
Oh, and I'm sure you can see them, but incase you can't and so you don't have to look for them, my run zones are as follows.
@brian terwilliger - thanks for the update! I know you been working out for a while so I'm glad it's coming together.
Honestly I don't care what the pace is as long as your heart rate is happy. That will dictate a lot of the day. I assume at the end of 116-mile bike ride that your heart rate might be a little more elevated than normal which would again, by default, keep you in the right space.
So remember that heart rate is your primary metric, peace shouldn't even be on the watch unless it shows up when it auto laps and you glance at it with total emotional detachment as to what the number says. How you execute the bike, the conditions of the day, and the quality of your nutritional process will determine the best heart rate for you. Your job is just to keep it inside the happy space at the start of the run so you can eat. Eat eat eat.
Can you tell me which plan you run so I can fix that issue? I want you to do the first workout that ends with zone two as the peak pace, no zone three thank you.
I am looking forward to hearing about your second rehearsal. The first one is supposed to totally suck for a variety of reasons, so it's nice you have that out-of-the-way. Remember our focus is on the nutrition and how you feel in the last hour of the bike so plan accordingly.
I did use and optimized chain in Mont tremblant but my friend did it. As long as you're comfortable manipulating it and installing it, it's a free 5 W!
Also, its 3 hours or 18 miles, whichever comes first. 18 should be @ 2:20 or faster if its not crazy humid and proscribed paces are able to be maintained. OK to extend to 20 miles, or all 3 hours if 18 comes in well under 3 hours? Or is that just adding unneeded stress and fatigue?
On the chain, I'd have to have my bike shop install it and then ride it however it is. I'm no bike mechanic and wouldn't attempt to even adjust or manipulate the chain after they put it on. Still good to go with race chain or asking for trouble?
RR #1 was horrible not because I was doing stuff wrong but because I got sick 40 miles in on Friday and at 50 decided it wasn't safe for me to continue, then limped another 14 miles back to the car, packed it in and went home. Saturday however was going very well until mile 45 when a dropped chain got so jammed between the frame and chain rings that I had to get a ride home then take the bike to the LBS to have the cranks and chain rings removed to get the chain out! Did get in a good run though on Saturday. And Sunday's 2 hour run went very well. Just upset about missing over 100 miles of hard work on the bike.
And if there is one thing I am good at, its eating. My concern is actually over eating and having to slow down because of that, or vomit to clear some of it out to get running again.
I don't want you running longer than 18 miles you have enough weekly mileage that you don't have to do that. Not worth it. Just do your best to simulate racing heart rate and race heart rate build.
yes you should be fine with the chain. They say you get 500 miles out of it after you change it so get it done like on Monday of race week so you get a few spins in.
Theoretically Renata fluid you consume shit out paste the food. So the first pushback should be liquid not solid. That liquid pushback should be within the first hour and if you had that, you should never have too much solids in your gut because the fluids will take care of it.
"Theoretically Renata fluid you consume shit out paste the food."
I gotta say, I love the voice to text typos that are regularly in your posts. They crack me up and keep me entertained.
Got in 16.3 hot, humid, hilly and rainy miles last night. 85 degrees, 100% humidity, dew point off the chart. Just slogged along at Z1 and snagged some sub TRP miles where I could.
@brian terwilliger in my defense I was on the trainer starting at 4:45am doing that. Could have been my brain.
I was trying to say that theoretically if you drink enough you can't run into a solid food problem. But maybe you will shit out your retina if you mess it all up. My guess is that you'll be okay given all the good work you've been doing !!!
Alright, race rehearsal weekend is coming up. Hopefully Irma does not impact us here and it can be done as planned.
Questions. Swim is listed on Friday, but suggested for Saturday as best. My long ride route for both days starts/ends at Jordan Lake where IM Raleigh 70.3 is raced. So I can swim either day, or both. Would both be too much? My long ride for Sunday is same location as well. I can throw in 3 swims! That seems like overkill though. Would a short swim on Friday and Sunday of like 1,000 to 1,500 yards prior to the bike be good with the full swim on Saturday? Or am I just over doing/thinking this and leave it at 1 full swim and no more?
Saturday's run off the bike is listed as 30 minutes and no more because there is a longer run on Sunday. Yet Sunday is a 56-100 mile bike and no run. ??????
Would it be wrong to do another 30 minute run at target HR off Sunday's bike assuming Sunday is a long bike and not a long run?
Comments
As for the next five weeks, I don't think you need a full Get Fast plan to get better. I like the idea of you doing the Bike Focus plan instead, setting it to end on 7/16. That puts you, starting next week, on Week 2...there are three runs in the program, so I could see you add some brick fun on the weekends if they work.
Notice I said nothing about swimming. No need. You'll have 12 weeks to swim it out to CHOO...this is BIKE time, with some run consistency. I think that you can also just ride it out with friends or go long on any given Saturday...there's enough work during the week that I'll be okay with that.
What say you?
Great 114.5 mile loop. Only 4,000 feet of climbing with the majority in the 2nd half. And majority on backwoods country roads with little traffic. +1 for safety. -1 for if crap goes wrong, you're stuck out in the middle of nowhere. Well spaced gas stations as well if I wanted to go and ride it solo and just get water to mix with my Infinit.
@Coach Patrick
But I do have some real questions here. Decided to try some actual tri shoes. Got the Specialized Trivent Expert as they are on sale. I've searched the threads, and I'm sure the info is there somewhere, but I couldn't find it. There is so much to sift through. So the question is, cleat placement. I use SPD-SL cleats and Shimano pedals. Nothing fancy, just basic stuff. Works for me. I use the 'yellow' cleats so they have a good amount of float, which I guess I like. I don't get knee or ankle pain, so I suspect the float is doing its job. But to get to the question, where on the shoe should the cleat go? There has to be an optimum position for it. The shoe has 3 holes which unlike my road shoes are not adjustable. They are where they are and they are not moving. I put my cleats on them and knocked out yesterdays 3 x 10' Z4 (week 2 bike focus block Thursday session). All was good. But really, all I did was put the cleats on, lock em down with the bolts and get on the trainer. While riding my brain started thinking about this. For maximum power transfer efficiency there needs to be an optimum cleat placement on the shoe. Is there a way to determine this short of moving them around every ride till one thinks they have found the spot? Or is it basically, hey, my feet feel good, I'm comfortable, and the bike is going forward, good enough? That can't be it. Do I need to just move them forward toward the front of the foot for a ride or 2, then move them more toward the back for a few and do some comparison on how my feet feel and how the power numbers were? Maybe related, maybe not to helping with cleat position, I find if I have my heel higher up, creating more 'pressure' on my forefoot/toes my power numbers are a bit higher at the same RPM/Gear than if I drop my heel to 'scrap mud'. Would this lead to a moving the cleat more toward the front of the mounting range as likely better? Or would it actually be the opposite? No idea here. But obviously there are some real world physics that determine these things. Thoughts? Ideas? A link to a discussion on this that I couldn't find?
And now for a fun but serious question.
New bike. I currently ride a 2015 Felt B14 in a 54. All parts as it came from the factory (other than a Stages power meter and Flo 60/90 on race day). The only issue I have with it is that as I have become a better and stronger cyclist and able to maintain a more aggressive position for hours on end I think the 54 may have become a touch on the small side. Or maybe not, don't know.
My LBS has a 'deal' currently on the Cervelo P5 Six (Black not Red, link below to see all it comes with and how its set up). Possibly only with the 56 size left available as they have sold a gazillion of them at the price of $3,999. Apparently this is a great price. I may or may not get my 10% additional discount as a VIP Bike Customer on this discounted price. I believe you ride this bike. Yes? So questions. Will such a bike produce quantifiable and tangible performance benefits to such an extent to justify laying out $4K (plus a new power meter as my Stages won't transfer) assuming fit on a 56 works as I understand people often size down on the P5 Six. One of my immediate concerns with the bike though as someone who knows jack squat about being a bike mechanic is the hydraulic breaks. I fear these may be an issue for maintenance and performance, and well functioning breaks are probably something important. Or is my fear unwarranted? Selling my wife on a new bike is very hard. She is of two positions on it. I can only race full distance every other year unless I KQ, my bike works fine, so outside of a KQ at Chattanooga, there is no IM in 2018, just HIMs and shorter all I want. So 2019, she feels the bike will have enough mileage and wear and tear on it that a new bike is at least justified to some extent. Her other mind is "if someone shows me that you are at your performance limit with your current equipment and you need to upgrade to reach your potential, then a bike is likely an acceptable investment."
To make my ramble even worse for you, I also really like the Felt IA 14 and IA 10. But worry that in 2 years Felts may not be what they currently are with the new ownership.
Here is the link to the P5. Also, I currently run a 50/34. Would the 52/36 be a plus or minus? Will have an 11/28 cassette on race days. Also, I believe the P5 is a good bit heavier than the B14. Increased weight negate possible aero improvement? I'm a good size guy, 175 pounds. Hoping to be 165 by Choo, but not banking on it.
http://www.insideoutsports.com/bike/triathlon-bikes/cervelo/cervelo-p5-six-6800-special.html#.WUPOlWeGM_w
Specifications:
And you should want your athletes to graduate from EN with a PhD in Triathlon!
Working in reverse order, here we go…
2. assuming the bike is well fit, and you've done things improperly, yes you will be faster. Your Felt is a good bike, the Cervelo P5 is a great bike. I don't think there will be a shelf life on how long you can ride it, as long as you maintain the components. I've had mine for several years now and don't plan on changing anytime soon. It is heavier but aerodynamic gains outweigh any such cost.
I can't answer your question about the hydraulic brakes as I do not have that model. From what I understand though, they're not that difficult to take care of. And if your local shop is selling it, then they know how to work on it. Hopefully you can transfer most of your components outside of your power meter.
I think you're strong enough to ride a 52/36, but the 50/34 is not hurting you. It's not just a bike, it is also better execution. Simply having the right gears on the bike doesn't mean that work for you unless you can get your bike up to speed and keep pushing those numbers.
Remember to, you can sell your felt to offset the cost and perhaps transfer some of the components as well. That is a great deal on a gray bike, as they make room for all of the crazy superbikes getting your hands on a good Cervelo at a great price is pretty sweet.
3. cleat placement should always be as far back towards your arches possible. There should be no thought to pushing down on your toes when pedaling a bicycle. You should only think about it as pushing your quads down; since your foot is attached to the pedal it drives the pedal around, done. The further forward the cleats, the more work you need to intentionally do with your calf muscles to keep the pressure on which is not worth it.
I hope this helps!
~ Coach P
@Coach Patrick
I've got problems. Big problems. And need big help. I can not do any of the run workouts as written or even close to how they are written. Why? As an example, yesterdays run off the bike was supposed to be Z2 out, Z3 Back, 4 x Strides, 35 minutes run time. It was 103 degrees with a dew point of 80. Ain't no way in hell I'm coming close to those paces. I did a 5K in Z1 while staving off death. Tuesdays 3 x 1 mile repeats in Z4? HA! It was 102 with a dew point of 74.
Seriously. I will end up in an ambulance if I attempt this stuff. It truly is all I can do to waffle between Z1 and TRP for any length of time. I know! Run in the morning! Ya. Todays split run at 5 AM it was 80 with 100% humidity. TRP for 50 minutes felt like a huge victory. Was supposed to go 70 with some Z2 and Z3 in there. Wasn't happening.
So here is my question. How much of this can/should I do on the treadmill and/or are there specific runs that may be best done on the treadmill so I can get in some fast running and higher cadence leg turnover? Obviously a good amount of running needs to be done out in this brutal heat because IM Choo may end up being an oven like last year. I don't mind running in the heat. It is what it is. But I don't see slogging along at Z1 over and over and over as the best option or best route to race day success. So what suggestions/guidance can you provide?
And I hear you are getting a Ventum. Lost the P5 love?
I'm having my local LBS price out a P5 Six all tricked out how I want it for me, though I may end up going with the new Premier Tactical. I'm intrigued by that thing.
On Edit: Forgot to add. Aug 4-13 I will likely not be able to swim What if anything should I add or modify during that time frame?
Bottom line is it's not just the effort that you want to do, it's the effort that your body experiences. Zone one in those types of conditions is the equivalent of an all out run. You may feel like you're not getting the muscular development you need, but truth be told your system is already running so hot that It can't do anymore. To put it another way, if you are exhausted and hurting at the end of the run, it was a good work out even if you couldn't hit some zone that a guy in New England said you should hit.
Actually, zone 1/ TRP running is fine. Many of our athletes simply do that without any of the "flash" in the arm and build. In your case I would plan on all zone one to TRP running except for your Tuesday interval run. That day you should get the treadmill and see what you can do it some air-conditioning or a fan.
Yes I'm going with addendum, I still love my P5. Bottom line is I had not written in 18 months and I bet you can guess what happens to a bike that you don't ride for 18 months that lives in a basement that got flooded during a burst pipe disaster. The entire bike is seized and friggin toast. I am excited for my bedtime, but it's also the smart financial decision!
As you know, the last thing I'm worried about is you being away from this wind! You're already a great summer, and Chattanooga is so so unfriendly that you should have zero concerns. To compensate for a lack of swim time, you should make sure you hit the runs on Monday and Friday - usually those two days have both a swim in a run, so make sure you just get the run and maybe extending it by 15 minutes. At the end of the day swimming is not a massive place of training stress. You do NOT need to add in swim chords or do anything crazy.
Well here is a situation I have never encountered. Tomorrow is a "Big Day". 1 hour swim, 4 hour bike, 1 hour run. So here is the issue. The temp of the lake where I do my OWS (where IM Raleigh70.3 takes place) is 90 degrees! Yes. 90! In fact the 1 and 2 mile open water championships taking place there this weekend just sent out an email saying the races will be cancelled if the temp is above 88. So, question #1. At 90 degrees, ashcan the swim? Or just go super easy and put in the time without a care for pace and effort to still get some pre-fatigue on the body before the bike? I was planning on doing it at the lake vs pool. Because pool would require a 30 to 40 minute drive after the swim. And the outdoor pools are 90 anyway.
Question #2, jumping ahead a little. I always read well ahead of where I am in the training plan so my schedule and life can be somewhat planned out around whats coming up. Throughout the plan (EN Advanced Full) it says Zone 1 is race pace goal AND TRP is race pace goal. It flip flops between the two repeatedly. Which is actually the one that is the correct race pace goal during Ironman? Obviously I would be thrilled beyond belief to actually run the marathon with an average pace at my TRP (7:46 currently). Plus that would get me to my goal of a sub 3:30 IM marathon. Z1 is 8:24. But with both of them being called race day pace goal, and various runs being based on that in the plan, I'm a bit confused as to which one actually is.
I do think my zones are pretty accurate. Will likely skip the 5K test next week and do the split long run instead. Unless weather cooperates and its not 100 degrees with a dew point in the 80s. Running a 5K test in that is pretty risky I believe. Though I have pretty well acclimated to the heat and am running pretty strong in it without much issue. Maybe I could drop my zones a little. But likely only by a couple seconds, which is really a wash.
Also, went and got a new bike. New Cervelo P5 Six with a fancy upgrade to Rotor INPower 3D+ Crankset/Powermeter and 52/36 Q-Rings. Can't remember if it has an 11/23 or 11/25. Likely not enough gearing for Chattanooga. My race wheel has an 11/28. Should I swap in an 11/28 on the training wheel as well, or go with whichever of those it has and just muscle through the lower gearing on climbs during training? Or might an 11/25 be enough gears for Chattanooga? If it does have the 11/23, that's not good for Chattanooga for sure.
Looking forward to your answers/thoughts on the other stuff.
OK, time to talk about the bike. Man that thing sounds like a race car!
Also, I think you should have the 28 on the back. You could survive with the 25, but why risk it? I would much rather have a gear that you can easily spin up any hill – 36/28 sounds like the best failsafe option.
I think you will be fine with your flow 60 on the front and the disc cover on the rear. If you do have that extra money, I would allocated the $$ to ETap although I'm not sure if you'll find anyone who has experience setting that up on a rotor crank? But I'm sure you can find someone to figure it out.
Let me know what what you decide!!
Thanks. Ya missed one though. Zone 1 or TRP. Which is actually the proscribed race pace for the marathon? The EN Full Advanced training plan says both and has runs based on whichever one it says that day.
There is a world of difference between running 7:46 plus 30 for the first 6 miles and 8:24 plus 30. If proscribed pace is Z1, going out at TRP would likely lead to disaster. If TRP, going out at Z1 wouldn't be bad, but would leave a ton of time on the table.
Will vary the different efforts in training to challenge and to accommodate the other load that we have in both biking and swimming.
* save that jet engine/hard work and effort for the last 6.2 miles when everyone else is running super slow.
Running off the bike at 130BPM has been working great! Floating between Z1 and Z1+30 depending on the terrain. Letting it drift up to 135 and I'm sub 8 after a 100 mile bike! Awesome! But I think that may be a bit too much too soon on race day if I'm actually able to pull off such numbers. Unless you say otherwise and if I can run sub 8 at the proscribed HR to run sub 8. Here is my initial thoughts after having done some runs at 130BPM. Looking at the Choo run course, with the first 6-7 miles being the somewhat flat, I think I'll do my best to maintain 130 for that and when the hills for the second half of the loop arrive, then drift to 135 with a hard cap of 140. 2nd loop, try to maintain 135 to 140 for the flat. Hit mile 20 and drain the tank. But as Tyson said, everyone has a plan till they get punched in the face.
If you get this in time, great, if not, no worry.
Thursday, 3 hour long run. The write up is two totally different runs. One has 6 miles Z1, 9 miles TRP, 3 miles Z2. Then in the coaches notes, is 6 miles TRP, 9 miles Z2, 3 miles Z3. Which is it? Or is it pick and choose?
Weather is looking super horrible for the rest of the week. I may have to do the Thursday long run on a treadmill. If that is the case, I will go with the faster intervals. Plus running for 3 hours in a pouring rain, while not something I oppose, may lead to foot issues that could impact the weekends long rides. Soaking wet sneakers can tear your feet up. That would be bad. And with the horrible forecast, if it holds, looks like an awesome 4+ hour trainer ride on Saturday! Though honestly, its a far better workout than doing it on the road, so I'm kinda looking forward to it in a sick and twisted way. And if there is the projected thunderstorms, the swim for Fri, Sat, or Sunday may get ash canned. Stupid pools close for thunder. And I'm not swimming in a lake during a Thunderstorm. But will try to get it in Friday morning if possible before work. And if either weekend day allows a swim, do it again.
2nd Race Rehearsal coming up next weekend. My first one was a shit show total waste of a weekend. Hopefully this one goes way better.
Oh, and I'm sure you can see them, but incase you can't and so you don't have to look for them, my run zones are as follows.
Z1 8:24, TRP 7:46, Z2 7:09, Z3 6:52, Z4 6:44, Z5 6:19.
And yes, I love to suffer. I strive on the suffer. I chew on agony.
Also, race day chain such as the ceramic speed UFO or Premier Optimized chain. Worth the money?
So remember that heart rate is your primary metric, peace shouldn't even be on the watch unless it shows up when it auto laps and you glance at it with total emotional detachment as to what the number says.
How you execute the bike, the conditions of the day, and the quality of your nutritional process will determine the best heart rate for you. Your job is just to keep it inside the happy space at the start of the run so you can eat. Eat eat eat.
I am looking forward to hearing about your second rehearsal. The first one is supposed to totally suck for a variety of reasons, so it's nice you have that out-of-the-way. Remember our focus is on the nutrition and how you feel in the last hour of the bike so plan accordingly.
I did use and optimized chain in Mont tremblant but my friend did it. As long as you're comfortable manipulating it and installing it, it's a free 5 W!
I am on the 2017 EN Full Advanced plan week 17.
Also, its 3 hours or 18 miles, whichever comes first. 18 should be @ 2:20 or faster if its not crazy humid and proscribed paces are able to be maintained. OK to extend to 20 miles, or all 3 hours if 18 comes in well under 3 hours? Or is that just adding unneeded stress and fatigue?
On the chain, I'd have to have my bike shop install it and then ride it however it is. I'm no bike mechanic and wouldn't attempt to even adjust or manipulate the chain after they put it on. Still good to go with race chain or asking for trouble?
RR #1 was horrible not because I was doing stuff wrong but because I got sick 40 miles in on Friday and at 50 decided it wasn't safe for me to continue, then limped another 14 miles back to the car, packed it in and went home. Saturday however was going very well until mile 45 when a dropped chain got so jammed between the frame and chain rings that I had to get a ride home then take the bike to the LBS to have the cranks and chain rings removed to get the chain out! Did get in a good run though on Saturday. And Sunday's 2 hour run went very well. Just upset about missing over 100 miles of hard work on the bike.
And if there is one thing I am good at, its eating. My concern is actually over eating and having to slow down because of that, or vomit to clear some of it out to get running again.
yes you should be fine with the chain. They say you get 500 miles out of it after you change it so get it done like on Monday of race week so you get a few spins in.
Theoretically Renata fluid you consume shit out paste the food. So the first pushback should be liquid not solid. That liquid pushback should be within the first hour and if you had that, you should never have too much solids in your gut because the fluids will take care of it.
I gotta say, I love the voice to text typos that are regularly in your posts. They crack me up and keep me entertained.
Got in 16.3 hot, humid, hilly and rainy miles last night. 85 degrees, 100% humidity, dew point off the chart. Just slogged along at Z1 and snagged some sub TRP miles where I could.
I was trying to say that theoretically if you drink enough you can't run into a solid food problem. But maybe you will shit out your retina if you mess it all up.
~ Coach P
Alright, race rehearsal weekend is coming up. Hopefully Irma does not impact us here and it can be done as planned.
Questions. Swim is listed on Friday, but suggested for Saturday as best. My long ride route for both days starts/ends at Jordan Lake where IM Raleigh 70.3 is raced. So I can swim either day, or both. Would both be too much? My long ride for Sunday is same location as well. I can throw in 3 swims! That seems like overkill though. Would a short swim on Friday and Sunday of like 1,000 to 1,500 yards prior to the bike be good with the full swim on Saturday? Or am I just over doing/thinking this and leave it at 1 full swim and no more?
Saturday's run off the bike is listed as 30 minutes and no more because there is a longer run on Sunday. Yet Sunday is a 56-100 mile bike and no run. ??????
Would it be wrong to do another 30 minute run at target HR off Sunday's bike assuming Sunday is a long bike and not a long run?
1- Friday, chillax and prep.
2- Saturday swim+bike+run 6 miles at target HR. Big day!!!!
3- Sunday ride long as you can and then run 30' off the bike at target HR.
if ^that^ plan has you really low on run mileage you. Od do a 30' to 40' TPR run on Friday AM to stay sane.