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Rob Peters' Micro Thread
@Larry Peters - Great call today...sorry to force you to move so quickly, but I hope we'll connect again shortly with more time. You can schedule another one here: http://meetme.so/patrickmccrann (Please remember to include your phone number).
Your first question was about our training plans; you can learn more about them online here: EN Store. You might need to log out to be able to see the full page; we had to "hide" these from our members because people were signing up AND buying plans, and it got really confusing!
You also mentioned bike vs run HR; and I told you that I prefer you run TRP to pace and not to heart rate. The TRP effort isn't that costly so as to be worried about it.
Now as for that 25k, we'd need you to target about 7:00/mile pace for that event to feel like we are in the ball park...call it a 1:31:xx time.
Since you mentioned a sub 3:10 Boston, here's Peter's LA Marathon Race Report so you can see what he just did. You have a bit of a way to go, but nothing to say that you can't be there by Fall assuming everything goes to plan.
As for your training, I see you have a fair amount of stuff lined up already between swimming and commuting. Do you need any of my help arranging or prioritizing your week? Let me know!
~ Coach P
Your first question was about our training plans; you can learn more about them online here: EN Store. You might need to log out to be able to see the full page; we had to "hide" these from our members because people were signing up AND buying plans, and it got really confusing!
You also mentioned bike vs run HR; and I told you that I prefer you run TRP to pace and not to heart rate. The TRP effort isn't that costly so as to be worried about it.
Now as for that 25k, we'd need you to target about 7:00/mile pace for that event to feel like we are in the ball park...call it a 1:31:xx time.
Since you mentioned a sub 3:10 Boston, here's Peter's LA Marathon Race Report so you can see what he just did. You have a bit of a way to go, but nothing to say that you can't be there by Fall assuming everything goes to plan.
As for your training, I see you have a fair amount of stuff lined up already between swimming and commuting. Do you need any of my help arranging or prioritizing your week? Let me know!
~ Coach P
1
Comments
This is awesome, thanks a ton!
Just to make sure I"m following you: If I run the 25 k at ~7 min pace, then that would suggest I might be able to BQ in October? I was hoping to run ~7 min pace anyway. My half IM PR was ~6:45 pace (and I was pretty over trained that week & it was a poor performance) & I ran a hilly 10k at 6:18 pace without too much taper (but both of those were in 2010).
Thanks for the LA Marathon race report from Peter!
Yes, I'd love to talk again about weekly training. I'm running a lot of extra miles since I just came off a marathon program and I want to run fast for that 25k in May (I'm currently kinda blending a 25k specific program from my running club with the EN short course program). I also lift moderately hard ~2 days per week because if I don't, I seem to get chronic pains in various paces. Specific lifting exercises seems to correct the pains & hold them back for 7-12 days. This has been working since ~July through the marathon training so I feel pretty good about it.
I'll try to schedule an appointment soon.
Thanks!
-Rob
Nutrition question:
Gu's website suggests that nutrition for activities over 2 hours (which I routinely do now) should have a higher amino acid amount (such as that found in Gu Rocktane)
The Gu Roctane is a bit more expensive than the normal Gu, but if the extra amino acids are good for my performance, I can swing it.
What do you think? I did a search for "amino acid" in the nutrition wiki, and skimmed a nutrition video, but didn't see this addressed exactly.
Thanks!
-Rob
I'd like to see your strava profile link or something so I get a sense of those miles you are doing. Want to make sure we aren't doing more harm than good.
Strength is ok; out of curiosity (were pains brought on by marathon running or were they already there)?
As for the amino acid stuff, it's negligible for performance gains. We recommend powerbar gels (or Rocktane) for the SODIUM content that is a much more important factor!! Regular GU has almost no sodium...
Ok, great to know on the amino acids & sodium!
Thanks! Yes, I'm hoping for a ~7 min pace 25 k in May, but that may be a bit lofty of a goal. I ran a 7'16" pace 10 mile run on January 15th, race effort, but no taper & in week 15/20 of marathon training. We'll see. I'm glad to hear that a 7 min mile 25 k in May could translate into a ~7 min marathon in October. Also, the 25k will have some meaningful hills (for the midwest) & the marathon will not.
I am on strava as "Rob Peters" (that should be unique enough, right
I think this is my Strava link:
https://www.strava.com/athletes/19776378
I have Suunto GPS & that has more workouts on the "movescount" program Suunto makes: RRRAMBO is my profile name.
Some of the stats on Strava are wrong (for example: I ran a 5:53 mile in early January 2017, & it says my mile PR is 6:04), because I just created the account not that long ago.
The pains I've had on and off for a long time (before marathon training). Tendinitis, I think from strength imbalances. I had a pain in my left hip for 2 years, and I finally started doing weekly single-leg squats & single leg, leg press. As long as I do that every 7-12 days, my left hip has felt realtively good for 2 years. I have to watch it & stretch it out well from time to time, but it holds up well.
I have a pain on the inside of my right quad. As long as I do leg extensions ever 7-12 days it feels great. If it gets sore, leg extensions cure the pain.
I have a sore spot on the inside of my left shin that used to flare up every winter & go away every summer...now, I can control with with the same story with calf raises & shin raises.
I'm attaching the run training programs I'm tentatively following. Intermediate has more miles than Beginner. I've been doing something that is ~half way between. I cut out some of the easy runs from the intermediate (to have time for swimming, biking, yoga & lifting), but the last couple weeks, my "quality workouts" have been mostly the length of the intermediate workouts (examples 14 mile long run (intermediate) instead of 12 last weekend (beginner), 6 mile temp run instead of 4 on Saturday).
Awesome, thanks a ton!
-Rob
-RP
I think if you stop doing all those Fake Bike Workouts, you'll have the time to do more with your training.
Let me know when your changes are done!
~ Coach P
Ps love the trail running and you are doing them right in terms of effort / pacing.
Oops! Thanks for letting me know. I switched the training log visibility to everyone.
Ha! "Fake bike workouts?" Do you mean my commuting? (PS. Or did you mean something else by "fake bike workouts?").
I'm trying to commute by bike as much as possible these days. When I was last very fit & racing (2010), I think extensive bike-commuting greatly enhance my cycling performance (My olympic split was close to 1 hour for the 25k bike). So I am recording all my commutes, as a way to try to account for them in my weekly cycling mileage. I mean, if I commute 4.5-10 miles per day by bike * 5-6 days per week, that is an extra ~35+ miles per week. Wouldn't it be good to include that (and log it) in my weekly training volume (as a supplement to (in excess of) my program; not in place of any "quality miles" in the program)?
I did think that since Strava is so public that it might look lame to be logging all those ~2 mile bike rides. But I am such a huge fan of bicycle commuting, I like to promote it.
Thanks for the feedback on the trail runs! I love it too! The night before last Sunday's 14 mile trail run I was out drinking with buddies till 2 am (very rare for me), so that also contributed to my "comfortable" (aka slow) pace on that run.
-Rob
PS. I am already able to get my HR way higher with cycling sprints that I was able to a week or two ago.
When you said this in your first post: "Now as for that 25k, we'd need you to target about 7:00/mile pace for that event to feel like we are in the ball park...call it a 1:31:xx time. " (1:31:xx would be 7 min pace for a half marathon. You don't mean 1:31:xx for a 25k, right? That would be way under 7 min/mile pace)
Also, I read Peter Noyes' race report. It was very inspiring! Thanks!
-Rob
Commuting is fine, and yes, miles are miles..they add up...so do it.
I recommend drinking with buddies AS MUCH AS I recommend trail running. You are already becoming my hero.
Finally, yes, I mean 7:00/mi pace...sorry for the math madness!!!!
Have a great week!!
~ Coach P
Ah! Ok, thanks. That makes sense regarding my repeated commutes to work.
"I recommend drinking with buddies AS MUCH AS I recommend trail running. You are already becoming my hero." LOL! Thanks, I'll keep that in mind! And I'm flattered.
Thanks, you have a great week too!
-Rob
Nice chatting with you today. Thanks for the feedback!
Here is the run program I'm hybridizing with the EN short course program to help me prepare for my 25 k run in May (RiverBank run). If I feel up to it, I do the "quality workouts" from the intermediate program, but some days if I"m short on time, I only do the mileage of the beginner program. Both are attached.
-Rob
Since you have such a load from the Tri Training, I think that maybe just one of those quality speed sessions (1000s) per week is called for, and honestly I'd keep it to 4 x 1000. 6 seems a lot with what else you have plus the long run on the weekends.
Keep up the good work!
~ Coach P
Ok, cool. Thanks! Glad to hear that! A few questions & a clarification:
- So you recommend doing the 4*1000/600 progressions workout and NOT the 8 miles at race pace next week (and 1 quality speed workout per week instead of 2 in general), right? Keep in mind that every other week, we only have 1 speed workout instead of 2 in this running program. (I was kinda excited to see what I could do for the 8 miles at race pace). If I drop the 8 miles at race pace, maybe I'll try for a "fast finish" and negative splits on next weekend's long run.
- The recommended pacing for the progressions workout is -5" sec HM pace for the fast 1000 and +30" HM pace for the "moderate recovery" 600. I always thought these paces were a little slow, and I often try to go a bit faster than recommended (like last time I tried for and achieved ~6'30" pace for fast interval and ~7 min pace for recovery, even though I definitely cannot run a 6:35 pace HM right now. What do you think about pacing for that workout (or maybe you have recommendations based on HR zones instead)?
- In terms of next week's running: would it be better for me to do the two quality speed work sessions & shorten the long run? Which, I guess is really two questions:
- Would 2 "speed work" (including 8 miles at race pace) sessions next week & no really long run next week be better for my 25 K in May?
- Would 2 "speed work" (including 8 miles at race pace) sessions next week & no really long run be better for my June olympic tri and/or August half IM?
After next week, this running program recovers (only 1 fast quality workout, and only 30 miles for the week) & then starts to taper anyway (until the 25 k race on Saturday 5/13). So after 5/13, I'll follow the EN program exclusively, unless you suggest otherwise.Starting about 20 weeks from the Chicago marathon (which, surprisingly is 5/21), however, I was thinking about slowly dialing up my running volume a bit more than the 70.3 program (I assume the 70.3 program has less weekly miles than an intermediate marathon program). What do you think about that? We could edit the EN runs accordingly, or I could hybridize the fall marathon plan from my local running club with the EN 70.3 program (obviously we will probably want to discuss this further at a later date, but I wanted to put it on your radar now).
Or maybe it would be better for keep running miles at a moderate level until closer to the 70.3 in August & then dial them up?
Thanks!
-Rob
PS. Bummer, I can't find a way to indent in a bulleted list in this forum. Like have points 'a' and 'b' under number 3 in this list.
Sorry if I went overboard on that last message.
One quick, more pressing question: If I failed to get my HR up during today's bike ride, should I (I was in the mountains of West Virginia this weekend, and pushed it pretty hard because I was having tons of fun backpacking & mountain biking, and I did my scheduled runs on top of it, oh and I got lost on my 12 mile run making it a 14.2 mile run...
- Do only "recovery" level efforts for a couple days (i.e., only low HR training)?
- Do workouts that are modifications of the normally scheduled workouts at reduced intensity and duration for a couple days?
- Take a day off completely?
Thanks!-(Larry) Rob
AND on Saturday I improved my mile time trial by 15 seconds since early January! 5:53 --> 5:38!
-RP
Overboard isn't bad...it's kind of the point as long as you recover!
Yes to easier workouts...usually takes about "a" day for every hard Day like that...so two hard days = two easy days.
Ideal modification is for INTENSITY first (so do the time prescribed but in Zone 1-ish) and if that's too much, just shut it down.
I'd rather you take a day of rest now and we build you back up.
Awesome, thanks a ton! That sounds good!
Lol, I love the rest-day cartoon!
-Rob
I know you are at camp, so if you can't respond, no big deal. If I had to skip 83% of my long bike ride last Sunday (really bad, I know), should I try to make up for it this weekend? For example, I could add time (maybe an hour) to my long (2 hr) ride this weekend, or do an extra long ride on Sunday (so two long rides total this weekend), or just not worry about it.
I did get some extra riding this week with commuting, and last Sunday, I did do a 6 min warm up and one hard set for 14 minutes, but I was supposed to have a 2 hour ride...
Thanks!
-Rob
PS. Camp looks sweet, have a blast!
Don't worry about missing a bike like that; it happens and 9 times out of 10 it's because you had no choice. We'll get you back!
~ Coach P
It was a very windy day, but I was in a forested area, so I think I was mostly sheltered from the wind.
My HR monitor was being unreliable during most of warm up and during 2.29 (start) to 4.11 miles of pace test/tempo run. But it flattened out after that. So the avg HR for the first half of the run was probably a bit lower.
Good news: I kept under 7 min pace & my HR was pretty consistent. It was difficult, but felt pretty good and steady. I was pushing on the way back, because I was feeling good, but toward the end, I had to slow down a couple times to hold back the urge to go to the bathroom (I ate too much this morning, I guess).
Considerations: I actually was hoping to be faster, since a month ago I ran 7 miles at 6:55 pace with hills (4/4/17). But I think I was more rested for that run. HR for that run was 144 out & 150 back. So that was probably a better performance.
This is the link to that previous run:
https://www.strava.com/activities/930009769
I did bike ~23 miles lightly and ran ~3.8 miles lightly late the night before this 5/7/17 run, I also biked ~5.8 miles on my commuter (as gently as I could, but the headwind was a beast), to the place where I ran the 5/7/17 run. I took a break & stretched out between the bike & run. And I had a big leg lift on Thursday evening.
What do you think?
Thanks!
The easiest (on my body) plan would be just doing light runs w/ strides (Maybe Tue, Wed, Fri)?
But do you think I should do any other speed work? Like some 400's at mile race pace? Or a couple miles at 25 k race pace on Wednesday?
I still plan to do the full bike workout on Tuesday (maybe toned down a bit), and do the full swim workouts, maybe toned down a bit (on Mon, Wed, Thur).
PS. I booked a tentative phone appointment for Thursday in case that might be useful to discuss final race execution details. My biggest question is: What should my goal HR and goal pace be for the 25K? If you would prefer to address that in my micro forum, I would be happy to cancel the phone appointment.
This is the elevation profile of the 25k. It is pretty flat, but most of the small hills are at the end:
https://www.53riverbankrun.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/25K-Elevation-Chart-1.pdf
Thanks!
-Rob
One more question to add to the pile: If I do this hard 25 k race this Saturday 5/13, can I do a full tri race rehearsal on this Sunday 5/14 if I feel up to it?: 1500 M open water swim, 75 min hard bike: (15' @ Zone 3 45' @ Zone 4 FAST transition straight to run), and 3 mile run as race pace?
The brick is scheduled for this weekend & it suggests to do the open water swim prior to the brick if you are able. I would love to do this and I'm really excited about it.
I just want to check: Would it be too much to do this the day after my 25 k hard race?
Thanks!
-Rob
You can do the swim and bike, but no need to run after. I know weekends are your "time" so I want to respect that...but after Sat, it would be muscle-crushing to go for the 3 miler. Okay?
Thanks!
-Rob
Biggest mistake: I started back by the 11 min/mile pace group (just got into the corral too late). I didn't lose too much time getting around people, but that was a factor. On the other hand, it may have helped me go out at a more relaxed, comfortable pace. The race course was definitely crowded, even after I passed a lot of people.
So now I/we have to think about what this means for my chances of a BQ in October (side note - 7:08 pace is 3:06:54 for a marathon; Craig's running calculator translates this performance to a 3:15:07 marathon (7:26 pace), but doesn't account for the fact that Chicago is flatter than today's course). Obviously, I need to keep building stamina and speed for the next 5 months. I'm happy I have 5 months, because I am hopeful that I can show significant improvement in those 5 months.
PS. West Michigan native and former Olympian Dathan Ritzenhein was there to win it all with a blazing 4:48 pace!
Some extra details: I felt a bit like I had a minor cold this morning (kinda soar throat & coughed up a little stuff last night), but it may have just been allergies and the feeling went away about halfway thought the race. I've been pretty congested all week, which I attributed to allergies and swimming (I'm allergic to the pool). I did get my allergy shot Thursday to help with this. But I don't think that was a big factor. My nose was clear today & my lungs felt clear for the race.
My own personal race reflection: I woke at 5:30 am for the 8:30 am race start (~5-5.25 hours sleep), had a green GT's kombucha, ~50% of a Cool Mint Chocolate cliff bar (caffeinated), and 1 chocolate with ~2-3 cocoa beans. Significant amounts of Gatorade & water. 2 times at the house. I had 1 * B-complex earlier in the morning getting ready, and then 2 more late (right before leaving the house, I think). I had a ~85% of a chocolate peanut butter (non-caffeinated) cliff bar ~90-75 minutes before race start. I left the house ~7:30 am, I believe. The Monroe street parking structure was closed off at that time (not surprisingly). I drove up North of Boardwalk condos & got a free spot ~0.8 miles from the gear check. 1 more small time just before race start. I had a big squeeze of strawberry banana gu (not rocktane, not caffeinated) ~10-15 min before race start. I ran in my black new balance shorts & new balance synthetic socks with my Aquinas tech shirt. I took an old Gatorade bottle filled with water to the start to be sure I had something to drink if I was thirsty, then I ditched it when we started. I wish I had a hat, because it was really sunny. It was not windy at all.
Weather was great, it was a beautiful day.
I felt like Nutrition went really well. Hydration went pretty well. I probably should've had more water at the early aid stations (I had 1-2 glasses, but I probably should've made sure to have 2 solid glasses at each station). I felt like I was starting to get a bit dehydrated later in the race, so I slowed down at 2 of the later aid stations to completely drink 3+ water cups.
https://www.strava.com/activities/984739517
Based off your HR data, you kinda were all out because of how you responded to the hills (mile 11) and after (mile 13) where your pace suffered a bit. All that means is you ran right up to your fitness, which is all we can ask for.
Now it's time to recover a bit so we can make sure you get well and stay on track. No workout today or Tuesday please. Wednesday is an EASY bike...your call thursday...I'd be happy if you were back on track by Saturday, no pushing it!
~ Coach P
I am glad to see the data support the feeling that I was "all out." I was definitely pushing hard. Great analyses of the hills on mile 11 & mile 13. I agree
Awesome!
Ok, thanks! I'm glad I saw this message now (based on your rest recommendation). I feel pretty good today, but still feel a little run down & cough a little bit. I already did the swim workout today (it was cut a bit short because I didn't get to the pool early enough). I still swam pretty solid times, so that is good (3*500 & 1*250: 7:45 (34), 7:39 (51), 7:37 (1:21), 3:55).
I was about to go do my leg lift, but I will postpone that workout based on your recommendation. Thanks! Some recovery time sounds good.
Thanks!
-Rob
~ Coach P