I'm not 100% sure what you meant here: "I assume we would modify the bike for this plan, which continues to trend of high-quality so I can I have to go season, compounding effect, into your camp." But I think I get the overall message, and this helps clarify, I think: "Personally, I would like to see you do swim camp and recover from the outseason before you go to the rest of your year."
I like the sound of doing Swim camp after OS as a way to recover a bit. After the taper for my 70.3 combined with an easy 10-12 days, I was feeling super strong & fresh at that time. So I'll try to focus on that, so that I can feel super strong and fresh when I start the bike block on 3/26.
Yeah, I should've figured we would modify the bike plan to maintain swimming .
I'll be sure to add in Monday/Friday swims during the bike block. I may swim a bit extra if I have time and it isn't taking away from my running & biking. My swimming is coming along well & I'm excited about improving on that this season. After listening to your podcast with Ian Kurth, I took away the idea that swimming (or vasa) shouldn't impact your biking or running too much physically. It is really just the admin time. So if I am able to handle the admin time because I'm really close to a pool or something, then a 3rd swim per week shouldn't be too big of a problem & can help my swimming overall.
Would you advise against swimming a 3rd or 4th day per week if I can swing it with work/life/training balance? I also like meeting up with my local masters group periodically for the social aspect.
I will also be sure to extend the Saturday rides to ~3.5 hours.
We are 100% on the right page together, which is good. I’m all right with a third swim but anything beyond that this early would be questionable. I prefer to load up on the swimming in the last 2 to 3 weeks before your race. Now, if it’s a social thing, I get how that can help you sustain your focus when the weather is still crappy.
Remember you can use the pool buoy to make swim is even less physically costly if needed.
I've thought about swimming with a pull bouy more to help rest the legs. I don't usually, but I might use it more since you mentioned it. I know in most of the EN swim notes it says "don't kick much." Sometimes, when I'm trying to push the pace & meet a goal time for a swim split, it can be hard to tone down the legs though if I'm feeling good (so the bouy may help with that).
Good to know on avoiding a 4th swim per week. Is there a weekly swim yard volume you would recommend as a cap at this point in the season? At this point, I assume I'm not going to come near any cap (because I almost never get to the pool long enough to get a ton of yards in), but I might as well ask now.
I know during the old "intermediate 70.3" high volume weeks, it said 8-9000 weekly yards was the goal. I also know that the EN resources have said if you are meeting certain time criteria, your form is pretty good and to take your swimming to the "next level" requires a lot of work on swim fitness. So when I'm not working this summer and have extra time, I was thinking "a lot of swim fitness" would be shooting for like 9000-12,000 yards per week. What would really developing my swim this summer for a 70.3 athlete look like in weekly yardage goals? (I have June-mid August off = big tri focus summer).
I think my times are close to that point where I would need to focus on fitness to see dramatic improvements in my swim. But I still plan to focus on form during the swim camp sessions & hope I can get even more gains from form improvement.
I hope putting questions in bold & underline doesn't annoy you (please let me know if it does!). I like it to help focus my reading, but one of my coworkers takes it as an insult, so I never do it in emails to her.
I think your use of bold and underline is a micro aggression and I don’t like it one bit.
Are you kidding me? I love it. Anything to help me focus. You’re spoiling me too much!
When we talk about some improvement it’s important to separate frequency from volume. The quality of every single swim deteriorates as your session grows longer. So I wouldn’t want to give you a yardage number to hit but if swimming was the focus I would say three good swims a week will do the trick.
Remember we benchmark the fine line between swimming for skill and swimming for speed based off of your average time per hundred in a 1K or 10 x 100 set. What is your number?
Assuming you come off of a girl frequency build what are you swimming but don’t overtax yourself, you could be ready for a June to August build. I would like to see a baseline of about 1000 yards per week with bigger weeks at the 12,000 yard range. Bigger weeks or typically spaced three weeks apart. So think 8K, 8K., 12 K, repeat. And of course you can always add more sending him in your taper week.
Most of all, remember that we don’t typically focus on some games until we have really improved the bike and the run. An improved swim is always a cherry on top which allows me to push it back to the three years of consistent training and learning around race execution, making my job as a coach much easier! :-)
Ok, sweet, thanks a million @Coach Patrick ! Ha, "microaggressions!" Ok, great (regarding bold text)!
My number for 1K last year at my best test was 1:33/100. I need to retest. I think I can beat it soon if not now. Below is an image of a recent set of 100's (~20'') (9 of them, not 10). I purposely went "steady/medium" on the first 3, on the 2nd 3*100, I went steady/medium on the first 75 & sprinted the last 25. I did an easy 50 before the last 3 & really tried to steady hammer those last 3 (Oh, and I guess i rested 30'' for these too, to help focus on form). I experimented with focusing on cadence vs. form on the last 100. It was noticably slower. The slower split may have been both fatigue and poor form, but I'm thinking next time I will keep the focus on form & not worry about cadence & see how the last one goes (I know we are NOT supposed to increase cadence if it decreases form. I'm working on that.). This is the closest thing to a recent set of strong 10*100's.
I definitely won't forget about the form. I've listened to the podcast w/ Mark Roberts about taking swim to the next level twice, and a major take away is that it is better to swim shorter intervals with better form and to stop swimming when form breaks down. I just listened to it again, and it gave times based on full IM, and based on that, I might not be at the level I thought I was (my memory was off a bit). But I definitely want to get the time gains from improved form as much as possible before I worry about improved swim fitness.
What I really need to do is read the EN swim book and start doing the body position progressions & pull progressions. I will soon!
Yes, I completely agree and recognize that the run & bike are way more important! I'm just looking at my 3 disciplines and dreaming about how much time I could take off each one after a year of focused training.
This is partly (or largely?) due to the fact that my foot is still keeping me from running much and running hard. It is frustrating, and I thinking about what I can do on the swim helps me (it is almost a subconscious thing, I think).
Yes, I also recognize the value of another year of consistent training and racing experience and that is a dreamy thought too....
Thanks for the screenshot. I agree, next time you test try to keep as many variables consistent. It’s good to try that variation on days when you aren’t worried about a particular outcome.
Don’t worry so much about not being able to run fast. That is not as important as being able to run consistently. You will have a window eventually or you will be able to put in the good miles and it will all come together!
I'm still feeling very mild pain/soreness in my foot once in a while, so I'm still only running about every other day, and always with walking breaks (and trying to elliptical or pool run on the other days). But I think it is still slowly getting better.
I had cancelled my PCP appointment when I had my first run back pain-free, but think I overestimated how "recovered" the injury was. I'm thinking about rescheduling the Dr.'s appt, to see if they see signs of a stress fracture (which will probably require referral to a specialist).
Always better to punch that appointments two weeks in the future “just in case“ you need it. I agree, if you’re making smart decisions and you still have an issue, then something ain’t right. Please keep me posted.
Hey @Coach Patrick , I was going to schedule a coach call like we discussed at Al Camp and the link at the very beginning of this micro forum (that worked in the past) is not working anymore (see error image below).
What is the best way to schedule a coach call?
I clicked the 1 year anniversary coach call link and that worked.
I booked a coach call there for Thursday 6/21 at 12:30 pm Mountain time. Please let me know if that is a problem. 989-245-0333 (I included my number in the appointment too). I'm happy to do the coach call after the race too if that works better for you.
Great to talk with you today. You sound rested and ready to race. I appreciate the balance you are striking between data and perceived exertion. If you do it right, you’ll be all set.
More importantly, this early-season race is a great chance for us to get a handle on your current fitness and what it means in terms of a race. Moving forward we will be much more informed.
Remember to eat and drink like a pro, and if it’s hot get and stay wet on the run
Hey @Coach Patrick , I hope your summer is going well! I"m thinking about 2019 season, especially since popular races fill up quickly. I wanted to get your thoughts.
Races:
1) A-race - BQ marathon attempt mid March 2019 (my spring break week). This is a good time for me to race because the 8 weeks after spring/fall break is always more demanding at work. So I can focus over the winter and then back off a little when work ramps up. I assume I can find a flat course without many turns the week of my spring break, but I haven't looked yet. I can travel, so I imagine I must be able to find one.
Unlike my last BQ attempt, I'm hoping to keep some bike fitness during most of this marathon build (if you think that is possible/smart). Last time I lost so much bike fitness and I'd prefer not to lose so much. I'm totally ok giving up swimming during that time.
Also relevant, my last 2018 A-race is late September. So October-March should give me a lot of time to build running fitness/durability.
2) B-race - A 70.3 mid-summer (thinking about Muncie, since, if it was early July as it was this year, it would be good timing for an August 140.6, it is flat and close to home).
3) A-race - A mid-August 140.6 - I'm getting very excited about the idea of "taking the 140.6 plunge." Unless someone convinces me otherwise, I'd like to do a flat course since I'm a bigger guy. It would play to my strengths and my time and place would be better (I imagine). I'm looking at Sweden or Copenhagen if they are the same time in 2019 as they were in 2018. I'm planning to post in course selection thread to get feedback from team. I know racing in Europe would mean less team mojo and that is a disappointment (I know IMMT is around the same time, which would also be an awesome race to do, but it has a lot of climbing from what I can see). But my competitive side would really like to set myself up for the most competitive race I could muster.
Also, I'm planning on Al camp 2019 if it happens and I'm invited again.
Awesome, thanks Coach P! I knew with Lake Placid team key race , you would be pretty slammed, so I totally understand. So exciting about so many teams successes! Look forward to hearing from you when you are able to respond.
Hey @Coach Patrick , that is awesome, thanks! My responses below:
My BQ pace is really fast. I am 35 year old and 3hr10min is my cutoff, I think if I break 3:05, I get guaranteed spot. So just over 7 min pace. Based on how I'm running right now, I feel like it is a long, long shot. But in some ways that takes pressure off: if I plan to go for a marathon PR and a fun race and see how running shapes up between now and December. I've run some races in the past that suggest it might be possible (I think) like a 6:18 pace 10k with some hills and a 6:45 pace half marathon with insufficient taper/rest, a 7:08 pace 25 k (more recently). Body comp will be a huge factor. I got really lean for my last BQ attempt at the 2017 Chicago Marathon, but I was terribly under rested and had poor execution resulting in a slow & painful race. I will have to be really light to have a shot, but if I don't try I'll never do it.
Thanks for plotting out that rough TSR. That looks good!
"Caveat 1 -- Marathon training in the winter is ROUGH." I agree and realize this will be a pain. But winter marathon training is way more manageable for my work schedule than winter IM training. I have access to a free 200 meter indoor track at work. My first ever marathon was Austin Texas in February. That was a mild winter, but the training and race went really well. So have some experience with this and I am ready to take it on.
"Caveat 2 -- all of this is predicated on you staying healthy, which gets harder from year to year." Yes, I know we all struggle with injuries. So if an injury comes up, we'll adjust the plan accordingly. I'm hoping with regular strength training and a bit more caution and maturity than last winter, I can avoid an injury this winter.
@Coach Patrick , I've had a pretty big conversation with some teammates about IM course selection for my first IM in August 2019. Some people are really pushing IMMT for great course, easier logistics, bigger team presence and less $$$. John Withrow said he had a lot more success on IMMT than pancake flat courses & seems like he is suggesting that I would do better on IMMT than a flat course (since he and I have somewhat similar sizes). But I"m thinking that is more of an exception than a rule.
This was my conclusion of my most recent post after digesting lots of team feedback:
"I will more seriously consider the course & experience rather than the amount of climbing as a result of this conversation. I will say a few other factors: the allure of an overseas IM is real, IM Sweden rides over a 6+ km bridge twice & that sounds cool, my brother and sister in law are interested in supporting me in a destination race and Sweden appeals to them (I'll ask them about Quebec). And, in a long term view, being able to do different courses over time does appeal to me. Right now I'm single and have no children. Therefore it is probably easier for me to do an overseas IM than it would be in the future (if I do get married and start a family one of these days). If I have a family one day, doing an IM course I can drive to (like IMMT) would be preferred over something like Europe (at least with my current financial situation). Doing a European IM with kids and a spouse sounds much more complicated and expensive.
In terms of team mojo Scott Dinhofer , I get the impression a lot of EN's (at least the ones I talk to regularly on Group me) are doing Leadville in August. So there may be less EN presence at IMMT? On the plus side for IMMT, Francis Picard , said he would sherpa for me and be my big spoon if I did IMMT. So that is pretty tempting.
I am hoping/thinking I can see how Steelhead and AC go relative to CdA and still be able to get in an early registration tier. If I really crush one of those flatter races, that will be a factor to push me toward a flatter (not perfectly flat) IM course."
One more question while I've got you "on the line:" In planning a 70.3 in the run-up to a 140.6 is there a difference in having the 70.3 4-5 weeks before the 140.6 vs. 7-8 weeks before the 140.6 ?
Is one situation preferred over the other? Thanks!
After posting this I have an update as of 8/7/18: "I found this guidance in the wiki which provides some insight to my post above:
"During Race Prep: Now you have made the mental shift from “training to train” to “training to race.” Time to have less fun and get down to work. For this reason, we highly recommend you race very little or not at all during Race Prep. Why? The opportunity cost of a race, particularly a Half Ironman within an Ironman schedule, can be very large. Between the need to rest on the front end, the race weekend itself and the lost opportunity to do IM specific long rides, and the need to recover on the back end, even a vanilla, C-priority can punch a 10+ day hole into your schedule. Not a “hole,” per se, but rather a lost opportunity to do the key workouts we’ve scheduled for you due to the need to accommodate the race, front and back ends." http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/91/Default.aspx?topic=Self-Coaching+Manual+-+DIY+Guide+for+Adjusting+You
So, to answer my own question, it probably would be better to pick a 70.3 further from my 140.6 than the Muncie 70.3 (~6 weeks from 140.6). So I guess CdA (maybe 8 weeks), BSLT (7 weeks) or a non-IM brand race in late June."
Do you agree that 8 weeks from 140.6 is better than 4-5 weeks for racing HIM? Or would it be best to skip any 70.3 altogether during the final 12 weeks. I know the quote above says to avoid it, but I'm wondering if the fitness and age of a given athlete is a factor? I also wonder if that advice should be more strongly applied as the 140.6 gets closer (i.e., 8 weeks out not as big of a deal as 4 weeks out)? THANKS!
@Larry Peters - thanks for doing your research and linking it all here! To me it comes down to what you want your 140.6 experience to be like. If you are totally into having the best possible race, then those final 5 weeks of training really need to be IM Specific (in my mind). If you want to just "do" an IM and aren't worried about speed / performance, you could "compromise" your training a bit for the Half.
Caveat - Some folks do very well with racing as "hard training" vs a hard session. It's time effective, just expensive.
I vote for option 1 unless life conspires against you!
Hey @Coach Patrick , thanks a ton! It sounds like you are commenting on my most recent post created 8/3 about timing of 70.3 . I want to have the best possible race, so I will look for a 70.3 further back than that critical 5 week window.
I am also very eager to hear your thoughts on the post just before my post on timing of a 70.3 in 140.6 build. That other post is on 140.6 course selection. What do you think about a flatter course in Sweden/Copenhagen vs. IMMT (lots of background in the post above)? The other post I would love feedback on is dated 8/2 with a slight edit on 8/3.
@Larry Peters Even your posts have posts!!!! You are a blackbelt, I don't care what you say.
So, the bigger picture is race accessibility ($$$$, TIME, etc, vs SPEED). I think your first IM in Europe would be one to remember but not for any of the right reasons. I say that you plan on staying closer to home and reducing the logistics by 50%.
Yes, hilly courses are more challenging, but:
What goes up must come down. You will fly on the down hill portions.
You can solve for hills with fitness, gearing and experience.
MT is built for Ironman. The course, venue, etc...it's all great.
Finally, no such thing as an EASIER IM.
Sure, I've had faster races just because of a bike course (Texas anyone) but it all comes down to the run anyway. Fire it up!
Ok, that sounds smart. Interestingly I just listened to the Triathlon Taren interview you did & you two discussed the added challenges of an international IM. And I am attracted to the idea of saving some $$$.
I actually am really excited about the idea of doing IMMT too! I love Quebec, and I actually like climbing, so I guess I'll get to train more on hills. I'll also have to try even harder to be super lean, so I can have the best W/kg possible.
If my summer schedule works out, I may even be able to go do a big week/weekend on course in June or July! That would be sweet.
Thanks a million @Coach Patrick ! I’m mostly staying in good spirits. Glad that I will hopefully get some compensation. I’m eager to see podiatrist for further eval, eager to meet attorney in person & eager to see the degree of healing each day brings.
Visiting family this week and that is like medicine.
i wanted to do super epic 3 day cycling pop over Labor Day. Was hoping for 100+ miles each day. Day 1 & 3 flat, but day 2 was thinking of 200k route that has about 10,000 feet of climbing (all small hills in northern MI). So as healing progresses, if I think I can do it still, I would probably seek your input. I tapered pretty hard & early, so my bike bolume was already really low for 3 week’s. But I know you and the team repeatedly say that your body can handle a pretty huge ramp in cycling with limited injury risk.
so that is a preview....but I guess we’ll see if and when I’m walking comfortably without crutches.
That sounds like a good plan on paper, let’s see how quickly you heal. The placement of the cut is pretty awkward so I’m not sure how your cycling shoes are going to like it. I’m sure we can get pretty creative though as needed, and if anyone is going to heal quickly it’s you. I will follow along on group me!
Hey @Coach Patrick , here is the update: The cut got infected and I went on antibiotics starting last Wednesday (8/22/18). The antibiotics are helping a lot. Last appointment was last Wednesday 8/22/18 & P.A. said no activity for one week (I specifically asked him about whether I could ride a stationary bike with no shoe on right foot if there was no pain in area of injury. He thought that was too much activity for foot (🙄. rolling eyes emoji, ugh!) I disagree with that, but I've been following his recommendations). Antibiotics will be done next Wednesday 8/29, follow-up appointment is scheduled for same day & stitches are scheduled to come out that day too (8/29). I figure as soon as stitches come out, biking and swimming should be no problem. We'll see about running. I'm still planning to try and do a big bike weekend over Labor Day and just see how my body reacts. I did get two days of Z4 intervals on stationary bike (last weekend) before I was ordered to stop (~60-75 minutes with 3-4*12'(4')), but I will have gone 15 days with pretty minimal biking, running or swimming. I have been doing something like strength training or a hand cycle every day. Does that sound like a terrible idea?
I would rather try the big bike weekend over labor day and need to slow down or cut mileage down rather than cancel it. I am dying to get out and ride, we started planning this a while ago and the buddy I'm planning on riding with will probably be ok if we ride less or ride slower. I will still honestly want to try and get monster volume if I can, but I will also try to listen to my body and pull back if necessary. The scenery will be beautiful and we've got 3 separate cool routes planned in Northern Michigan.
From my past experience and what I"ve learned from the team, the thing I'll have to be most precautious about is rebuilding running consistency. I'll use EN protocol and plan on rebuilding weekly volume with frequent, short, low-intensity runs.
I'm still planning to go to AC 70.3 on 9/23. I figure at the worst, I can spectate, but hopefully I can at least swim and bike. We'll see how the following couple weeks go after stitches come out.
If you have any thoughts or input, please share! I just wanted to update you. Thanks a million!
I think we need to be really cautious with your return to exercise. It’s not only the incision, which by then should be resistant to infection, but how your body reacts to having training load again. There are many variables here. The first 6 to 10 days need to be easy just to allow your body to ramp up again. If your first session is a 90 minute break your body is going to be in a world of hurt and you won’t necessarily be any better off for it
I advise that you plan on several short spins very aerobic on the bike. Something like 30 to 45 minutes not hard at all. You can also work in some swimming without fins and without pushing off the walls. He might even want to get in one or two longer walks with some hills. I would not try actually running until 10 days after you get some kind of a greenlight.
Another words, focusing on the process of rehab is more important then targeting any special volume piece for your season. I successful return to training will mean no more hiccups or problems.
I must admit: this was a difficult email to get. I had a big weekend of cycling planned up north with a good friend. But I immediately told him your words of caution, and he seems pretty understanding. We are still going up north, but I obviously won't do the huge bike rides we had planned.
I highly value your knowledge and experience, so I am I ready to concede that I was being unrealistic about how quickly I could resume normal training. I am also trying to reset my expectations for what training I can do in the coming 6-10 days. The long term perspective is the most important one. So thank you for that reminder and sharing your wisdom and experience!I am totally up for doing some long walks ( @"Laura Becker" rehab style :) ) . I love that suggestion. I plan on being up north this weekend, so hopefully I can OWS instead of swimming in a pool, so no walls to push off anyway :).
However, I also have to say that I have to question the prediction that my body will be in "a world of hurt" from a 90 minute aerobic bike ride (Z1-2 bike effort). Here are some workouts I did semi-recently that make me think that I could still go out & bike a decent amount at a low effort:
Friday 8/17 spin: 12, 14, 12, 8 min @ Z4 for a total of ~97 minutes & 97 hr TSS, followed by leg press and glute kick back (8 sets total), and my legs felt fine the next day. https://www.strava.com/activities/1779100162
On Wednesday 8/22, the doctor/PA instructed me to "not bike," to help my foot heel (it was infected at that point) so I followed his orders. But I feel like those workouts listed above were a reasonable amount of bike work and it did not seem to wear me out.
Friday 8/24 single leg press and glute kick back (~4 sets of 8-12 of each).
I also did leg extensions once a week during this time, and I did some sore of core work or upper body lifting every day during this time, including some "hand cycle" sessions to try and get some aerobic work after I was told I couldn't bike.
So how about something like this: (assuming I get "green light" today, 8/29) Wednesday 8/29 and/or Thursday 8/30, try a 30-45 minute super easy spin and see how that feels. If those short easy efforts feel fine, then Saturday 9/1 try a longer, super easy aerobic effort as much for the enjoyment of riding around northern Michigan with my friend as for any training benefits, and see how that feels the next day?
I am willing to wait a while on the running. I would be most nervous about the rubbing of my heel on the back of a running shoe (much more friction from running shoe than in a biking shoe, I think).
Another critical discussion point: What does this mean for my planned Atlantic City 70.3 on 9/23? Should I mentally prepare to skip it altogether? Should I just plan to build fitness continually up until the race & treat the race like a workout (i.e., minimal taper)? If I cannot do any real training for the next 6-10 days, it will be time to taper at that point and that does not seem like a good long term plan. Assuming I don't have more problems with my foot between now and then, should I plan to try and swim and bike and DNF (i.e., skip the run), since the run is the most "dangerous" from an injury perspective? Obviously, progress over the next few weeks will influence your answer, but I'm wondering what you are thinking at this point.
Also, I will hopefully get the sutures out today (Wed 8/29) and I'll see what the PA has to say when he sees my foot. I will certainly account for that advice in any plan moving forward.
I will do my best to focus on these words: "A successful return to training will mean no more hiccups or problems."
Thanks for any additional insight Coach P! I wish I could indent some of these paragraphs to make the formatting of my message more reader friendly (but I couldn't find that option).
Comments
I'm not 100% sure what you meant here: "I assume we would modify the bike for this plan, which continues to trend of high-quality so I can I have to go season, compounding effect, into your camp." But I think I get the overall message, and this helps clarify, I think: "Personally, I would like to see you do swim camp and recover from the outseason before you go to the rest of your year."
I like the sound of doing Swim camp after OS as a way to recover a bit. After the taper for my 70.3 combined with an easy 10-12 days, I was feeling super strong & fresh at that time. So I'll try to focus on that, so that I can feel super strong and fresh when I start the bike block on 3/26.
Yeah, I should've figured we would modify the bike plan to maintain swimming
I'll be sure to add in Monday/Friday swims during the bike block. I may swim a bit extra if I have time and it isn't taking away from my running & biking. My swimming is coming along well & I'm excited about improving on that this season. After listening to your podcast with Ian Kurth, I took away the idea that swimming (or vasa) shouldn't impact your biking or running too much physically. It is really just the admin time. So if I am able to handle the admin time because I'm really close to a pool or something, then a 3rd swim per week shouldn't be too big of a problem & can help my swimming overall.
Would you advise against swimming a 3rd or 4th day per week if I can swing it with work/life/training balance? I also like meeting up with my local masters group periodically for the social aspect.
I will also be sure to extend the Saturday rides to ~3.5 hours.
Thanks!
I've thought about swimming with a pull bouy more to help rest the legs. I don't usually, but I might use it more since you mentioned it. I know in most of the EN swim notes it says "don't kick much." Sometimes, when I'm trying to push the pace & meet a goal time for a swim split, it can be hard to tone down the legs though if I'm feeling good (so the bouy may help with that).
Good to know on avoiding a 4th swim per week. Is there a weekly swim yard volume you would recommend as a cap at this point in the season? At this point, I assume I'm not going to come near any cap (because I almost never get to the pool long enough to get a ton of yards in), but I might as well ask now.
I know during the old "intermediate 70.3" high volume weeks, it said 8-9000 weekly yards was the goal. I also know that the EN resources have said if you are meeting certain time criteria, your form is pretty good and to take your swimming to the "next level" requires a lot of work on swim fitness. So when I'm not working this summer and have extra time, I was thinking "a lot of swim fitness" would be shooting for like 9000-12,000 yards per week. What would really developing my swim this summer for a 70.3 athlete look like in weekly yardage goals? (I have June-mid August off = big tri focus summer).
I think my times are close to that point where I would need to focus on fitness to see dramatic improvements in my swim. But I still plan to focus on form during the swim camp sessions & hope I can get even more gains from form improvement.
I hope putting questions in bold & underline doesn't annoy you (please let me know if it does!). I like it to help focus my reading, but one of my coworkers takes it as an insult, so I never do it in emails to her.
Thanks!
Assuming you come off of a girl frequency build what are you swimming but don’t overtax yourself, you could be ready for a June to August build. I would like to see a baseline of about 1000 yards per week with bigger weeks at the 12,000 yard range. Bigger weeks or typically spaced three weeks apart. So think 8K, 8K., 12 K, repeat. And of course you can always add more sending him in your taper week.
My number for 1K last year at my best test was 1:33/100. I need to retest. I think I can beat it soon if not now. Below is an image of a recent set of 100's (~20'') (9 of them, not 10). I purposely went "steady/medium" on the first 3, on the 2nd 3*100, I went steady/medium on the first 75 & sprinted the last 25. I did an easy 50 before the last 3 & really tried to steady hammer those last 3 (Oh, and I guess i rested 30'' for these too, to help focus on form). I experimented with focusing on cadence vs. form on the last 100. It was noticably slower. The slower split may have been both fatigue and poor form, but I'm thinking next time I will keep the focus on form & not worry about cadence & see how the last one goes (I know we are NOT supposed to increase cadence if it decreases form. I'm working on that.). This is the closest thing to a recent set of strong 10*100's.
I definitely won't forget about the form. I've listened to the podcast w/ Mark Roberts about taking swim to the next level twice, and a major take away is that it is better to swim shorter intervals with better form and to stop swimming when form breaks down. I just listened to it again, and it gave times based on full IM, and based on that, I might not be at the level I thought I was (my memory was off a bit). But I definitely want to get the time gains from improved form as much as possible before I worry about improved swim fitness.
What I really need to do is read the EN swim book and start doing the body position progressions & pull progressions. I will soon!
Yes, I completely agree and recognize that the run & bike are way more important! I'm just looking at my 3 disciplines and dreaming about how much time I could take off each one after a year of focused training.
This is partly (or largely?) due to the fact that my foot is still keeping me from running much and running hard. It is frustrating, and I thinking about what I can do on the swim helps me (it is almost a subconscious thing, I think).
Yes, I also recognize the value of another year of consistent training and racing experience and that is a dreamy thought too....
I'm still feeling very mild pain/soreness in my foot once in a while, so I'm still only running about every other day, and always with walking breaks (and trying to elliptical or pool run on the other days). But I think it is still slowly getting better.
I had cancelled my PCP appointment when I had my first run back pain-free, but think I overestimated how "recovered" the injury was. I'm thinking about rescheduling the Dr.'s appt, to see if they see signs of a stress fracture (which will probably require referral to a specialist).
What is the best way to schedule a coach call?
I clicked the 1 year anniversary coach call link and that worked.
http://members.endurancenation.us/Support/ENStaff.aspx
I booked a coach call there for Thursday 6/21 at 12:30 pm Mountain time. Please let me know if that is a problem. 989-245-0333 (I included my number in the appointment too). I'm happy to do the coach call after the race too if that works better for you.
THANKS!
http://meetme.so/patrickmccrann
I didn't sleep super well on Monday & Tuesday night, but I did sleep well last night. Hopefully I can get 2 more really quality nights of sleep
Have fun at Lake Placid Camp!
Also, I can't say enough how awesome it was to ride and hang out with you at Al camp! Thanks again for the advice & being a part of that!
Races:
1) A-race - BQ marathon attempt mid March 2019 (my spring break week). This is a good time for me to race because the 8 weeks after spring/fall break is always more demanding at work. So I can focus over the winter and then back off a little when work ramps up. I assume I can find a flat course without many turns the week of my spring break, but I haven't looked yet. I can travel, so I imagine I must be able to find one.
- Unlike my last BQ attempt, I'm hoping to keep some bike fitness during most of this marathon build (if you think that is possible/smart). Last time I lost so much bike fitness and I'd prefer not to lose so much. I'm totally ok giving up swimming during that time.
- Also relevant, my last 2018 A-race is late September. So October-March should give me a lot of time to build running fitness/durability.
2) B-race - A 70.3 mid-summer (thinking about Muncie, since, if it was early July as it was this year, it would be good timing for an August 140.6, it is flat and close to home).3) A-race - A mid-August 140.6 - I'm getting very excited about the idea of "taking the 140.6 plunge." Unless someone convinces me otherwise, I'd like to do a flat course since I'm a bigger guy. It would play to my strengths and my time and place would be better (I imagine). I'm looking at Sweden or Copenhagen if they are the same time in 2019 as they were in 2018. I'm planning to post in course selection thread to get feedback from team. I know racing in Europe would mean less team mojo and that is a disappointment (I know IMMT is around the same time, which would also be an awesome race to do, but it has a lot of climbing from what I can see). But my competitive side would really like to set myself up for the most competitive race I could muster.
Also, I'm planning on Al camp 2019 if it happens and I'm invited again.
What do you think?
Thanks!!!
I like the layout...the rub is I don't know what your BQ pace is or what you need to run. So five months is enough, and it rolls like this:
- A Race ends
- Two weeks off
- Run Durability Begins...ideally 6 weeks but might be more like 4. The idea here is to get the run stabilized.
- We then roll in the NOV OutSeason® and do the first 8 weeks thru XMAS. We modify the runs a bit so...
- You can transition into the final 12 weeks of the Balanced Marathon plan.
Caveat 1 -- Marathon training in the winter is ROUGH. Ask anyone who runs Boston each year. So it's a mental game.Every thing else follows, but it's pretty easy to put together. Rest post marathon, then you become a proper triathlete again.
Caveat 2 -- all of this is predicated on you staying healthy, which gets harder from year to year.
I hope that answers your question!!!
~ Coach P
My BQ pace is really fast. I am 35 year old and 3hr10min is my cutoff, I think if I break 3:05, I get guaranteed spot. So just over 7 min pace. Based on how I'm running right now, I feel like it is a long, long shot. But in some ways that takes pressure off: if I plan to go for a marathon PR and a fun race and see how running shapes up between now and December. I've run some races in the past that suggest it might be possible (I think) like a 6:18 pace 10k with some hills and a 6:45 pace half marathon with insufficient taper/rest, a 7:08 pace 25 k (more recently). Body comp will be a huge factor. I got really lean for my last BQ attempt at the 2017 Chicago Marathon, but I was terribly under rested and had poor execution resulting in a slow & painful race. I will have to be really light to have a shot, but if I don't try I'll never do it.
Thanks for plotting out that rough TSR. That looks good!
"Caveat 1 -- Marathon training in the winter is ROUGH."
I agree and realize this will be a pain. But winter marathon training is way more manageable for my work schedule than winter IM training. I have access to a free 200 meter indoor track at work. My first ever marathon was Austin Texas in February. That was a mild winter, but the training and race went really well. So have some experience with this and I am ready to take it on.
"Caveat 2 -- all of this is predicated on you staying healthy, which gets harder from year to year."
Yes, I know we all struggle with injuries. So if an injury comes up, we'll adjust the plan accordingly. I'm hoping with regular strength training and a bit more caution and maturity than last winter, I can avoid an injury this winter.
THANKS Coach P!
-RP
Here is the thread:
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/comment/266598#Comment_266598
Do you have any insights/comments on me doing a flatter 140.6 course (not pancake flat, but flatter) in Europe vs. IMMT in August 2019?
Copenhagen bike:
https://www.strava.com/activities/184818455
Sweden bike:
https://www.strava.com/activities/76283840
IMMT bike (which I know you know well):
https://www.strava.com/activities/181762734
This was my conclusion of my most recent post after digesting lots of team feedback:
"I will more seriously consider the course & experience rather than the amount of climbing as a result of this conversation. I will say a few other factors: the allure of an overseas IM is real, IM Sweden rides over a 6+ km bridge twice & that sounds cool, my brother and sister in law are interested in supporting me in a destination race and Sweden appeals to them (I'll ask them about Quebec). And, in a long term view, being able to do different courses over time does appeal to me. Right now I'm single and have no children. Therefore it is probably easier for me to do an overseas IM than it would be in the future (if I do get married and start a family one of these days). If I have a family one day, doing an IM course I can drive to (like IMMT) would be preferred over something like Europe (at least with my current financial situation). Doing a European IM with kids and a spouse sounds much more complicated and expensive.
In terms of team mojo Scott Dinhofer , I get the impression a lot of EN's (at least the ones I talk to regularly on Group me) are doing Leadville in August. So there may be less EN presence at IMMT? On the plus side for IMMT, Francis Picard , said he would sherpa for me and be my big spoon if I did IMMT. So that is pretty tempting.
I am hoping/thinking I can see how Steelhead and AC go relative to CdA and still be able to get in an early registration tier. If I really crush one of those flatter races, that will be a factor to push me toward a flatter (not perfectly flat) IM course."
THANKS!
4-5 weeks before the 140.6
vs.
7-8 weeks before the 140.6
?
Is one situation preferred over the other?
Thanks!
After posting this I have an update as of 8/7/18:
"I found this guidance in the wiki which provides some insight to my post above:
"During Race Prep: Now you have made the mental shift from “training to train” to “training to race.” Time to have less fun and get down to work. For this reason, we highly recommend you race very little or not at all during Race Prep. Why? The opportunity cost of a race, particularly a Half Ironman within an Ironman schedule, can be very large. Between the need to rest on the front end, the race weekend itself and the lost opportunity to do IM specific long rides, and the need to recover on the back end, even a vanilla, C-priority can punch a 10+ day hole into your schedule. Not a “hole,” per se, but rather a lost opportunity to do the key workouts we’ve scheduled for you due to the need to accommodate the race, front and back ends."
http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/91/Default.aspx?topic=Self-Coaching+Manual+-+DIY+Guide+for+Adjusting+You
According to this, race prep phase is final 12 weeks:
http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/RacingMemberCentral/RacePrep[Final12Weeks].aspx
So, to answer my own question, it probably would be better to pick a 70.3 further from my 140.6 than the Muncie 70.3 (~6 weeks from 140.6). So I guess CdA (maybe 8 weeks), BSLT (7 weeks) or a non-IM brand race in late June."
Do you agree that 8 weeks from 140.6 is better than 4-5 weeks for racing HIM? Or would it be best to skip any 70.3 altogether during the final 12 weeks. I know the quote above says to avoid it, but I'm wondering if the fitness and age of a given athlete is a factor? I also wonder if that advice should be more strongly applied as the 140.6 gets closer (i.e., 8 weeks out not as big of a deal as 4 weeks out)? THANKS!
Caveat - Some folks do very well with racing as "hard training" vs a hard session. It's time effective, just expensive.
I vote for option 1 unless life conspires against you!
~ Coach P
I am also very eager to hear your thoughts on the post just before my post on timing of a 70.3 in 140.6 build. That other post is on 140.6 course selection. What do you think about a flatter course in Sweden/Copenhagen vs. IMMT (lots of background in the post above)? The other post I would love feedback on is dated 8/2 with a slight edit on 8/3.
Thanks!
-Rob
So, the bigger picture is race accessibility ($$$$, TIME, etc, vs SPEED). I think your first IM in Europe would be one to remember but not for any of the right reasons. I say that you plan on staying closer to home and reducing the logistics by 50%.
Yes, hilly courses are more challenging, but:
- What goes up must come down. You will fly on the down hill portions.
- You can solve for hills with fitness, gearing and experience.
- MT is built for Ironman. The course, venue, etc...it's all great.
- Finally, no such thing as an EASIER IM.
Sure, I've had faster races just because of a bike course (Texas anyone) but it all comes down to the run anyway. Fire it up!~ Coach P
Ok, that sounds smart. Interestingly I just listened to the Triathlon Taren interview you did & you two discussed the added challenges of an international IM. And I am attracted to the idea of saving some $$$.
I actually am really excited about the idea of doing IMMT too! I love Quebec, and I actually like climbing, so I guess I'll get to train more on hills. I'll also have to try even harder to be super lean, so I can have the best W/kg possible.
If my summer schedule works out, I may even be able to go do a big week/weekend on course in June or July! That would be sweet.
-Rob
Visiting family this week and that is like medicine.
i wanted to do super epic 3 day cycling pop over Labor Day. Was hoping for 100+ miles each day. Day 1 & 3 flat, but day 2 was thinking of 200k route that has about 10,000 feet of climbing (all small hills in northern MI). So as healing progresses, if I think I can do it still, I would probably seek your input. I tapered pretty hard & early, so my bike bolume was already really low for 3 week’s. But I know you and the team repeatedly say that your body can handle a pretty huge ramp in cycling with limited injury risk.
so that is a preview....but I guess we’ll see if and when I’m walking comfortably without crutches.
thanks so much Coach P!!
Hey @Coach Patrick , here is the update: The cut got infected and I went on antibiotics starting last Wednesday (8/22/18). The antibiotics are helping a lot. Last appointment was last Wednesday 8/22/18 & P.A. said no activity for one week (I specifically asked him about whether I could ride a stationary bike with no shoe on right foot if there was no pain in area of injury. He thought that was too much activity for foot (🙄. rolling eyes emoji, ugh!) I disagree with that, but I've been following his recommendations). Antibiotics will be done next Wednesday 8/29, follow-up appointment is scheduled for same day & stitches are scheduled to come out that day too (8/29). I figure as soon as stitches come out, biking and swimming should be no problem. We'll see about running. I'm still planning to try and do a big bike weekend over Labor Day and just see how my body reacts. I did get two days of Z4 intervals on stationary bike (last weekend) before I was ordered to stop (~60-75 minutes with 3-4*12'(4')), but I will have gone 15 days with pretty minimal biking, running or swimming. I have been doing something like strength training or a hand cycle every day. Does that sound like a terrible idea?
I would rather try the big bike weekend over labor day and need to slow down or cut mileage down rather than cancel it. I am dying to get out and ride, we started planning this a while ago and the buddy I'm planning on riding with will probably be ok if we ride less or ride slower. I will still honestly want to try and get monster volume if I can, but I will also try to listen to my body and pull back if necessary. The scenery will be beautiful and we've got 3 separate cool routes planned in Northern Michigan.
From my past experience and what I"ve learned from the team, the thing I'll have to be most precautious about is rebuilding running consistency. I'll use EN protocol and plan on rebuilding weekly volume with frequent, short, low-intensity runs.
I'm still planning to go to AC 70.3 on 9/23. I figure at the worst, I can spectate, but hopefully I can at least swim and bike. We'll see how the following couple weeks go after stitches come out.
If you have any thoughts or input, please share! I just wanted to update you. Thanks a million!
I think we need to be really cautious with your return to exercise. It’s not only the incision, which by then should be resistant to infection, but how your body reacts to having training load again. There are many variables here. The first 6 to 10 days need to be easy just to allow your body to ramp up again. If your first session is a 90 minute break your body is going to be in a world of hurt and you won’t necessarily be any better off for it
I advise that you plan on several short spins very aerobic on the bike. Something like 30 to 45 minutes not hard at all. You can also work in some swimming without fins and without pushing off the walls. He might even want to get in one or two longer walks with some hills. I would not try actually running until 10 days after you get some kind of a greenlight.
Another words, focusing on the process of rehab is more important then targeting any special volume piece for your season. I successful return to training will mean no more hiccups or problems.
Hey @"Coach Patrick" ,
I must admit: this was a difficult email to get. I had a big weekend of cycling planned up north with a good friend. But I immediately told him your words of caution, and he seems pretty understanding. We are still going up north, but I obviously won't do the huge bike rides we had planned.
I highly value your knowledge and experience, so I am I ready to concede that I was being unrealistic about how quickly I could resume normal training. I am also trying to reset my expectations for what training I can do in the coming 6-10 days. The long term perspective is the most important one. So thank you for that reminder and sharing your wisdom and experience! I am totally up for doing some long walks ( @"Laura Becker" rehab style :) ) . I love that suggestion. I plan on being up north this weekend, so hopefully I can OWS instead of swimming in a pool, so no walls to push off anyway :).
However, I also have to say that I have to question the prediction that my body will be in "a world of hurt" from a 90 minute aerobic bike ride (Z1-2 bike effort). Here are some workouts I did semi-recently that make me think that I could still go out & bike a decent amount at a low effort:
Friday 8/17 spin: 12, 14, 12, 8 min @ Z4 for a total of ~97 minutes & 97 hr TSS, followed by leg press and glute kick back (8 sets total), and my legs felt fine the next day. https://www.strava.com/activities/1779100162
Saturday 8/18 spin 3*12'(4') @Z4 for 66 min & 77 hr TSS and I felt fine the next day. https://www.strava.com/activities/1781639749
Monday 8/20 spin 44 minutes @ Z1 hr 30 hr TSS (very sleep deprived, but legs were not hurting or anything)
Tuesday 8/21 spin 3*12' (4') for total of 70 minutes & 84 hr TSS with 3*1' hard single leg spins. https://www.strava.com/activities/1788594554
On Wednesday 8/22, the doctor/PA instructed me to "not bike," to help my foot heel (it was infected at that point) so I followed his orders. But I feel like those workouts listed above were a reasonable amount of bike work and it did not seem to wear me out.
Friday 8/24 single leg press and glute kick back (~4 sets of 8-12 of each).
I also did leg extensions once a week during this time, and I did some sore of core work or upper body lifting every day during this time, including some "hand cycle" sessions to try and get some aerobic work after I was told I couldn't bike.
So how about something like this: (assuming I get "green light" today, 8/29) Wednesday 8/29 and/or Thursday 8/30, try a 30-45 minute super easy spin and see how that feels. If those short easy efforts feel fine, then Saturday 9/1 try a longer, super easy aerobic effort as much for the enjoyment of riding around northern Michigan with my friend as for any training benefits, and see how that feels the next day?
I am willing to wait a while on the running. I would be most nervous about the rubbing of my heel on the back of a running shoe (much more friction from running shoe than in a biking shoe, I think).
Another critical discussion point: What does this mean for my planned Atlantic City 70.3 on 9/23? Should I mentally prepare to skip it altogether? Should I just plan to build fitness continually up until the race & treat the race like a workout (i.e., minimal taper)? If I cannot do any real training for the next 6-10 days, it will be time to taper at that point and that does not seem like a good long term plan. Assuming I don't have more problems with my foot between now and then, should I plan to try and swim and bike and DNF (i.e., skip the run), since the run is the most "dangerous" from an injury perspective? Obviously, progress over the next few weeks will influence your answer, but I'm wondering what you are thinking at this point.
Also, I will hopefully get the sutures out today (Wed 8/29) and I'll see what the PA has to say when he sees my foot. I will certainly account for that advice in any plan moving forward.
I will do my best to focus on these words: "A successful return to training will mean no more hiccups or problems."
Thanks for any additional insight Coach P! I wish I could indent some of these paragraphs to make the formatting of my message more reader friendly (but I couldn't find that option).