Thanks! I love to schedule rest as needed. I think that helps me focus on listening to my body more and worrying about a scheduled workout less. Sounds good!
I'm going to do some reading on this in the wiki/forums, but I'm thinking about giving up swimming for a while. Now that I have a girlfriend I really like spending time with, the whole "maximizing training time ROI" is becoming more important (versus the old attitude of "I'll just train way more than everyone else and do everything" (insert laughing emoji)).
I've been swimming twice a week, focused entirely on drills (most swims are 50 yards or less) and doing about 3500-6000 yards per week total.
So I may be asking you about when I should start swimming again. But I'll try to find guidance in wiki first. :)
Sounds good! You can also ask the team for input. I think given some of the numbers that you have been throwing around that you certainly have the bandwidth to reduce swimming in the short term.
1) I am doing Ragnar Snowmass Ultra with Tim Sullivan. Right now, it is just him and me. A 2 person team was not my plan, but that is our status. He thinks we could do it as two people if we go very slowly (lots of power hiking). How bad of an idea is doing the event as 2 people vs. 3 or 4? I would rather do fewer miles & be able to try & go faster (not to mention dividing registration cost across more people). The only appeal to me is that it would be a pretty epic, badass thing to do it as 2 people, and it would be cool to do it with an awesome, badass teammate like Tim. I've tried to recruit EN and non-EN people to expand our team. I could branch out further to friends of friends if you think doing half those miles would be a bad for me (obviously not best IM training). And I do fully respect how hard it was on you guys last year. I mentioned it to Tim, but he said you guys went fast & we can go slowly. The follow-up is: If I am going to do ragnar ultra (as 2 person team, or 4 person team does advice for A and B below change?), do I need to take any preparatory/precautionary steps?
Examples of possible preparatory steps:
A) Build any high volume run weeks leading up o Ragnar (30-35 is my typical weekly run mileage now (540 miles for the year), with a 43, 52, 7, & 41 mpw this past month to pop volume for upcoming 25k race).
B) Back off on cycling volume at all during the week of Al camp? I really want to be able to go big that week on the bike & make it super epic. But knowing everyone but Tim will only be cycling makes me think that if I try to do all the biggest, baddest rides during the week with crazy people like Withrow & then do Ragnar ultra (as normal ultra, let alone, 2 person ultra), would i be asking for trouble?
2) I broke my hand in bike race Saturday 4/13 (brand new PT cleat broke & foot came off pedal at bad time & I lost control. I didn't crash, but my hand ended up in wheel.). Had surgery on Thursday 4/18. Dr. said 4-6 weeks healing. I can zwift & run in mean time. That means no swimming until 11-13 weeks out from my first 140.6. Should I be worried about that? Should I look into transferring into a later IM so I have more time to develop swimming? I don't even know if that is an option & what the costs are, but I could look into it. I'm guessing 11-13 weeks is a decent amount of time to build swim fitness to have a decent IM swim. I realize that my swim split will probably be slower because of the timing of this injury, but that is a relatively small issue in the big picture. (relevant BG: prior to accident on 4/13, I had swam ~62,200 yard this year of almost entirely drills to work on swim form).
@Larry Peters let me work in reverse to answer your questions.
First, 11 to 13 weeks of swimming is more than enough. Do you have a great foundation for form and your swim will come around quickly. That should be the least of your worries.
I agree that we want epic cycling volume it out camp. Given the Ragnar element of the equation, I would recommend that you do most of your riding at a pretty moderate clip. I know if you times last year that some of us shut off the front and attack the climb. You want to avoid doing that is much is possible. Sure, have fun on the descents and push the flats but don’t do any high and sprinting or acceleration‘s that you would in a race. That type of effort level really set you back within the context of the greater week. So, write it out, maybe one easy day after the Withrow stupid ride, and just watch the high intensity stuff.
I agree the whole Ragnar thing would be super epic. I hope it does anything wrong with doing a two-man team, but as tim mentioned it’s far less about running and more about pacing. For example, you could commit to running the flats in the down hills but powerwalking all of the ups. Remembered your day is significantly longer. Along those lines, fueling both during the run and then with protein and water as recovery after each run Sigmund will be critical. I did that last year and it was one of the differentiators in terms of me being able to be successful across the whole event. That will become really important to you. You might also want to invest in some kind of music if that’s allowed, since you’ll be out there So long.
At the end of the day, is really all about getting lots of running Endurance in. Worst case scenario you don’t complete the event but you still manage to run 40 miles. That would still be amazing. I think it will be a huge boost to your fitness presuming that you do it in a way that you don’t get damaged
Awesome, thanks a million @Coach Patrick ! That was a super fast reply! Thanks so much I appreciate the music recommendation too....you are right: that event will be so long & so hard 😂. I'm super excited!
Hey @Coach Patrick , quick question: what would you think about pacing one of my buddies on a flat course for 17 miles of trail running (in Michigan) 3 weeks after my 140.6? He wants to be running about 10 minute pace, but will be taking breaks (he needs to average 12 minute pace with breaks to get under 20 hours for 100 miles). It will be one of his last 4* ~17 mile laps of a 100 mile run (6 laps total).
I asked some EN folks. Some (Danielle Santucchi notably) were concerned. They said if I race my 140.6 hard, that running 17 miles 3 weeks later may not be a good idea. But others suggested it shouldn't be a problem.
I've never race 140.6, but I would think I could do 17 miles at 10 minute pace 3 weeks after 140.6. What do you think?
PS. Al camp was epic! Wish you could've been there! You should totally come up for a day of Hoff camp! I am totally gung-ho to take on 6 gaps. With only 2-3 guys, I think it may be harder than our 211 mile day in Snowmass (which actually was surprisingly manageable for me, since I didn't pull much till the end, and I got to CO earlier than some other folks to acclimate).
PPS. I beat your time on the Ragnar Red loop as my 6th lap of ultra (ha ha ha!)! So you have to come to Al camp again next year to take that segment spot back ;).
@Larry Peters you are a beast. So impressed. I am humbled. 😂
I say you CAN do it but be ready to suffer. And recover between them both. Focus is 110% on the full, the long run with your friend is all about FUN. And don’t let me see you training between them. 😡
how is your body feeling after the camp + run? Remember absorption is your primary post camp priority!!!
Ok, cool, thanks for the input! I'll tell my friend.
Body feels good. I felt pretty strong all week. I've mostly been swimming. I've run a bit harder than I planned a couple times at the end of this week (including today), because I've been feeling fresh. But honestly, I had some niggles I was really concerned about going into camp, so I was pretty conservative. I didn't do anything on the first Friday and Saturday of camp. I only did 40 miles on Sunday of camp (instead of the 100 mile ride everyone else did) and I didn't ride or run at all on Thursday of camp. I was pretty acclimated cause I got there early which helped. My average HR for the 211 mile ride was 110 bpm. I was very conservative for that ride too because i was worried it would get hard, but it never got too hard. I even gave a strong 15 minute pull ~160 mile mark and the group had to ask me to slow down (granted, I had been sucking wheel the whole day before that).
Because I had some niggles, I did the first 5 ultra runs super conservatively with stretching and walking and peeing breaks. I did 11 mile hilly run today and kept HR mostly around TRP HR, but I did some hard ~20-90 second pushes up some hills & I feel a little tired out from that. But I have 3 more easy days scheduled before Hoff camp. The last 3 miles my HR decoupled from power because I was out of nutrition and getting light headed. But I kept power ~standard long run power which I hope to target for my IM run (~300 watts).
I think most of my niggles are due to changes in my weekly strength training routine caused by my broken hand. But it is healed now, and I think I'm getting my body back into balance.
Thanks for checking in and thanks for the shout out on weekly coach video!
Always happy to give you a shout out. I really appreciate how you balance your workout goals with how you feel that day. Blindly following a training plan “into a brick wall” doesn’t take skill or intelligence. What you’re doing is the right word, our goal now for the rest of the season just to keep you safe and healthy so your fitness can evolve! Hopefully you won’t mind your life being a little bit more boring 😂
Thanks so much @Coach Patrick ! BTW, I set up final surge. I put in power & HR zones for run and bike. But I want to wait to load the program till I can put in swim zones (based on The forum thread that said you cannot retroactively update your zones once a plan is loaded. ). I haven’t done a swim TT in a long time. I’m going to try to swim test week.
i have a solid 10 *100 on the 2’ yesterday FOLLowed by 5*200 on the 4’. NOt sure if I could extrapolate t-pace from this....
Yes, you can edit the zones after you load a plan or update the zones as well. Instructions are on the Health website which is at: www.endurancenation.us/help
I think you could easily go with 125 as your target teepees. Those are some really consistent in our roles. I like your progression so far this year, and to give you some perspective.
I want to remind you that part of our goal is not just the race improvement but also establishing a good 2 to 3 your foundation of endurance upon which we can put some really great performances. It’s balancing those two goals that gets tricky sometimes.
Hey @Coach Patrick , I'm really sorry to disappoint you with my recent accident. I'm obviously very disappointed too. I'll be honest, looking back, I still loved the adventure of that big, destination ride. Several lessons learned as I mentioned in group me.
I should be more hesitant to ride at night especially on a faster bike, and especially on unfamiliar roads/paths.
When and if i ride at night, I should take the time to properly adjust my headlights even if it delays my arrival, and I should remember to stay vigilant.
Remember, that even if you are on a bike path, you need to stay vigilant and you are not safe from danger.
I meet with the ortho surgeon tomorrow. I'll give you an update on recovery timeline and we can talk about next steps for training. At this point, I'm thinking this will be my "recovery/off" time and I will resume with RDP/OS type training.
As I said in group me, I'm still also very thankful for the awesome fitness adventures I had this summer and that in the big picture, this is relatively minor setback and I should be back to lots of fitness fun in the not-too-distant-future.
@Larry Peters don’t ever think that you have disappointed me! I empathize with you but only because I too have made many dumb mistakes and have suffered for them. That said, I have somehow always come back stronger.
I love the perspective you have about appreciating the adventure you are on even if it didn’t work out the way that you had intended. You are young, strong, and focused. If we can combine that with some good planning in the future, you will be practically unstoppable.
it’s almost like you were on a crash course of becoming insanely strong and fast but also had to get in all of the mistakes that the rest of us made at the same time, just on a compressed timeline!
The only other advice I have for you right now is to remember that keeping that incision clean and your shoulder dry is critical. If you recall, my incision became infected, and I had to have a second surgery to get the plate removed. That effectively doubled my time out of action. It’s very hard not to get it sweaty early on so be patient and let’s stay in touch!!
Thanks a ton for the kind, encouraging & cautionary words @Coach Patrick !
yikes, I didn’t realize your collarbone surgery got infected!
I have to ask: Were you on preventative antibiotics when your collarbone incision got infected? I hate the idea of taking preventative antibiotics, but every time I go for an incision or stitches, they seem to want to give Me preventative antibiotics.
Honestly I don’t remember. I think I might’ve been on something but I definitely got carried away with the Exercise stuff, especially on the stationary bike. It also could’ve been something arbitrary from the surgery itself but always better to be safe than sorry.
Thanks a ton @Coach Patrick !! Surgery went well. I got 15 screws, surprisingly. He said there were eight or nine different pieces of bone he found and it was one of the worst ones he’s ever seen. Yikes!
Surprisingly they did not prescribe me preventative antibiotics even after I asked about it. I am actually glad because I don’t want to take them unless absolutely necessary, but it also means I will be more cautious with sweating on the incision. Your extra words of caution really help too. Thanks!!
Hey @Coach Patrick , I've been thinking about trying to get 2* 140.6 next season on one build. I know an athlete learns so much about execution and racing in each race, and I am sad I didn't get to do any big races this year. I'm hoping to double my learning with one build next year. Unless you think that is a terrible idea. I know many athletes on the team do it (like people doing Kona and IMCoz or Kona and IMAZ). I also don't know how easily I'll be able to do an IM in 2021. If work goes as planned, it will probably be a bad year to do an IM, so I may focus on running that year.
I thought doing 2*140.6 would drag out my season too much, but I see other people doing it without too much time in between races. I don't really feel comfortable committing to a full IM build during the school year. But in this case, I can get another race early in the fall semester mostly off my summer training. Danielle Santucchi thought 3 weeks was a perfect time (but that sounds short to me). I remember Al T saying something about 4-6 weeks (or some number) being a very bad period to race again.
I've read the wiki and a couple threads on this. Paul H said this:
"The accepted guidance is that if you are going to leverage 2 IMs off one build, then the optimal time frame is 3 weeks apart, 4 at most. I've done 20 days apart and it worked very well. If you go with 7 wks, then you cannot float the 2nd Ironman off the 1st, but will require a solid build block in between (say 2 wks recover, 3 wks full build and 2 wks taper). It's not ideal because 4 of the 7 weeks are lower TSS at a critical period."
You had 6 weeks between Kona and IMCoz, but you are pro....
I am doing IMMT 2020. I am registered for it through deferral.
1) IMMD 2020 is 4 weeks after IMMT (and is FLAT!! :) ). I would love to see how racing a flat course and hillier course (like IMMT) compares in general and for me personally. 13 hour drive. I would probably have to fly....
2) IMMoo is 3 weeks after IMMT (but is very hilly I hear). Only a 5 hour drive.
3) IMLV is 7 weeks after IMMT (6 hour drive). This would be long enough I would have to do a few weeks of serious work, but I think that would be manageable early in the fall semester, unlike most other times during the academic year.
4) IMLP 4 weeks before IMMT, but that is early in the summer and summer is critical training time for me. I think I would be rushed to be ready by late July. But I could probably do it and IMLP is supposed to be an awesome course (to hell with being worried about racing on hilly mountainous courses).
In the 3-4 weeks, I wouldn't expect to gain any fitness in between races (except maybe some swim fitness). In the 7 weeks, I could potentially gain a little fitness, or lose some (but hopefully maintain at the worst). What I'm really looking to gain is more experience with execution.
I figure either 1) I'll nail IMMT, and have a chance to take that fitness and experience and tweak some variables just to see how it plays out in a 2nd race. Learning lessons. or 2) I'll make an execution mistake and want a revenge race. This way I'll have one in the pipeline and I'll get lower tier pricing, and I won't have to worry about it selling out. 3) I'll execute well, but conditions may suck on race 1. Race 2 would give me a chance to apply what I did in race 1 and maybe have better conditions...
I would MOST LOVE to do an EN Key race, but IMSG is a terrible time of year for me to do an IM, and with recent changes in work schedule, it is even worse to try and race anything big that time of year.
What do you think?!?! I'm guessing this is generally discouraged. And I'm guessing it can go badly. But I am younger than many on the team...so that might help? ha ha ha.
Rob,It's not as bad and ideas you think.The key is that you are training for the first race. And not focused on the second one. Then we modify the transition. Training based on your first race performance. The MathWorks for everyone, the key is how healthy can you stay all year? You can get double the benefit, but you could lose twice as well. Only you can do the math on the risk/reward equation.
I like the idea of Maryland for you. It is not an easy race, but it will be about a straightforward as you could hope for coming off of another Iron Man. Let me know what the next step is for you!
Awesome, thanks a million @Coach Patrick ! I love the idea of adding IMMD!! Yes, it is a risk. But I really like the idea of not having all my eggs in one race basket. I’m probably going to pull the trigger pretty soon.
now the next crazy idea is....can I do ghost train 5 weeks after IMMD? 😂🤷🏻♂️😄🦄 I would love to be at a key race (Snowmass Ragnar is an option too...but I think there will be more team mojo at ghost train.)
PS. And what about adding Steelhead 70.3 on June 28th to my season (good idea, bad idea)? Kinda my back yard. 2-3 weeks after Al camp. And it will help get rid of pre-triathlon jitters after not having raced a tri since June 2018? I'm happy to do it with minimal taper. It seems like it is far away from IMMT enough that it would be ok? (Steelhead is 8 weeks prior to IMMT).
I don't think I should try to squeeze in Ghost train. Ghost train is a Saturday race. I have the week that follows off from teaching, but if I do IMMD (a saturday race), I don't think I can do another Saturday race out of town. It is really hard for me to miss a class (so hard for me to travel to a race on a Friday). Unless, by some miracle, I don't teach on Fridays (which has never happened).
Big Sugar is at the end of my fall break on a Saturday. So that would work really well. But I'm thinking if I do 2 fall IMs, I should avoid any other big events just for general life stress/balance.
But I'm still interested to hear what you think about adding Steelhead 70.3 on 6/28 (8 weeks prior to IMMT). It is in my backyard and I've raced it before. Good idea/bad idea?
Hey @Coach Patrick , I am officially registered for IMMD 2020. I got permission to miss Friday from the boss. Then I realized you had to check in on Thursday, so I then asked for permission to miss Thursday too :) (insert laughing emoji). He said we could probably work around that. I'm super excited about this! I did pay for registration protection, so I'm hoping that will be the umbrella I don't need. ;)
Also, I know you've been slammed, "But I'm still interested to hear what you think about adding Steelhead 70.3 on 6/28 (8 weeks prior to IMMT). It is in my backyard and I've raced it before. Good idea/bad idea?"
If you think Steelhead 70.3 is a good idea or neutral idea, it may actually be my year to do 3 IM branded events and have another shot at AWA status (if I can actually make it to each race). One of my major goals in 2017 was to try and get AWA gold status, but with the hotel accident that year, I missed 2 of my 3 A races. (insert eyes rolled emoji).
@Larry Peters I got your Check-In update, and have pasted it below. This is part of our monthly process to stay connected, so thanks for filling it out!
Thanks for the kudos on the scientific stuff. I'm doing my best to shout out, and your feedback makes it worthwhile. If there's something that were missing I focus upon, I'm counting on you to let me know. Looking at your rankings, I feel like it's totally representative of where you're at: no swimming, but dominating everything else!
I love how you continue to challenge yourself physically, and that you are focusing on the bike. I feel like a former version of you might've tried to do too much running, but you seem to be wiser now. Your epic bike adventure sounds incredible. I think that something like an average of 162 miles a day. At that speed you won't even have to pack a tent because who needs to stop.
In terms of preparation for that, you will definitely want to do a small block of back to back days. If you have 10 days to prepare, I would do to three day cycles. Day one will "pre load" some fatigue and be focused.
Day One: ABP ride day, to create fatigue. Call this a 3h ride with up to 2h (4 x 30?) chunks of Zone 3 effort.
Day Two: Long Day here...call it 120 miles or 7 to 8 hours. Ride ride ride.
Day Three: 60 mile day at same pace. Backing up Day 2 and stressing your body/position/etc.
Then you can rest two full days...repeat...and then go for it.
Let me know if I can help more!
~ Coach P
As a reminder, Rob Gronk Peters Is on the TeamEN (Coaching + Community Level) and is following the Other Plan / DIY Training.
His Rankings are as follows:
- Swim Fitness vs Last Month: 1
- Bike Fitness vs Last Month: 3
- Run Fitness vs Last Month: 3
- Body Comp vs Last Month: 3
Next month's focus: Contemplating a ~1300 mile, ultra light bike tour around lake MI with a buddy. We would be attempting to do it in pretty epic fashion (8 day’s or so). (It would be in early August. Gives me 2 weeks to bike a ton, then about 10 day’s to taper)
Extra help request: Keep being awesome! I love it when you post recent studies about endurance performance.
Comments
Thanks! I love to schedule rest as needed. I think that helps me focus on listening to my body more and worrying about a scheduled workout less. Sounds good!
I'm going to do some reading on this in the wiki/forums, but I'm thinking about giving up swimming for a while. Now that I have a girlfriend I really like spending time with, the whole "maximizing training time ROI" is becoming more important (versus the old attitude of "I'll just train way more than everyone else and do everything" (insert laughing emoji)).
I've been swimming twice a week, focused entirely on drills (most swims are 50 yards or less) and doing about 3500-6000 yards per week total.
So I may be asking you about when I should start swimming again. But I'll try to find guidance in wiki first. :)
Thanks!
Sounds good! You can also ask the team for input. I think given some of the numbers that you have been throwing around that you certainly have the bandwidth to reduce swimming in the short term.
Hey @Coach Patrick , welcome back from Mallorca!!
I have 2 questions:
1) I am doing Ragnar Snowmass Ultra with Tim Sullivan. Right now, it is just him and me. A 2 person team was not my plan, but that is our status. He thinks we could do it as two people if we go very slowly (lots of power hiking). How bad of an idea is doing the event as 2 people vs. 3 or 4? I would rather do fewer miles & be able to try & go faster (not to mention dividing registration cost across more people). The only appeal to me is that it would be a pretty epic, badass thing to do it as 2 people, and it would be cool to do it with an awesome, badass teammate like Tim. I've tried to recruit EN and non-EN people to expand our team. I could branch out further to friends of friends if you think doing half those miles would be a bad for me (obviously not best IM training). And I do fully respect how hard it was on you guys last year. I mentioned it to Tim, but he said you guys went fast & we can go slowly. The follow-up is: If I am going to do ragnar ultra (as 2 person team, or 4 person team does advice for A and B below change?), do I need to take any preparatory/precautionary steps?
Examples of possible preparatory steps:
A) Build any high volume run weeks leading up o Ragnar (30-35 is my typical weekly run mileage now (540 miles for the year), with a 43, 52, 7, & 41 mpw this past month to pop volume for upcoming 25k race).
B) Back off on cycling volume at all during the week of Al camp? I really want to be able to go big that week on the bike & make it super epic. But knowing everyone but Tim will only be cycling makes me think that if I try to do all the biggest, baddest rides during the week with crazy people like Withrow & then do Ragnar ultra (as normal ultra, let alone, 2 person ultra), would i be asking for trouble?
2) I broke my hand in bike race Saturday 4/13 (brand new PT cleat broke & foot came off pedal at bad time & I lost control. I didn't crash, but my hand ended up in wheel.). Had surgery on Thursday 4/18. Dr. said 4-6 weeks healing. I can zwift & run in mean time. That means no swimming until 11-13 weeks out from my first 140.6. Should I be worried about that? Should I look into transferring into a later IM so I have more time to develop swimming? I don't even know if that is an option & what the costs are, but I could look into it. I'm guessing 11-13 weeks is a decent amount of time to build swim fitness to have a decent IM swim. I realize that my swim split will probably be slower because of the timing of this injury, but that is a relatively small issue in the big picture. (relevant BG: prior to accident on 4/13, I had swam ~62,200 yard this year of almost entirely drills to work on swim form).
Thanks!
@Larry Peters let me work in reverse to answer your questions.
First, 11 to 13 weeks of swimming is more than enough. Do you have a great foundation for form and your swim will come around quickly. That should be the least of your worries.
I agree that we want epic cycling volume it out camp. Given the Ragnar element of the equation, I would recommend that you do most of your riding at a pretty moderate clip. I know if you times last year that some of us shut off the front and attack the climb. You want to avoid doing that is much is possible. Sure, have fun on the descents and push the flats but don’t do any high and sprinting or acceleration‘s that you would in a race. That type of effort level really set you back within the context of the greater week. So, write it out, maybe one easy day after the Withrow stupid ride, and just watch the high intensity stuff.
I agree the whole Ragnar thing would be super epic. I hope it does anything wrong with doing a two-man team, but as tim mentioned it’s far less about running and more about pacing. For example, you could commit to running the flats in the down hills but powerwalking all of the ups. Remembered your day is significantly longer. Along those lines, fueling both during the run and then with protein and water as recovery after each run Sigmund will be critical. I did that last year and it was one of the differentiators in terms of me being able to be successful across the whole event. That will become really important to you. You might also want to invest in some kind of music if that’s allowed, since you’ll be out there So long.
At the end of the day, is really all about getting lots of running Endurance in. Worst case scenario you don’t complete the event but you still manage to run 40 miles. That would still be amazing. I think it will be a huge boost to your fitness presuming that you do it in a way that you don’t get damaged
Awesome, thanks a million @Coach Patrick ! That was a super fast reply! Thanks so much I appreciate the music recommendation too....you are right: that event will be so long & so hard 😂. I'm super excited!
😎
Hey @Coach Patrick , quick question: what would you think about pacing one of my buddies on a flat course for 17 miles of trail running (in Michigan) 3 weeks after my 140.6? He wants to be running about 10 minute pace, but will be taking breaks (he needs to average 12 minute pace with breaks to get under 20 hours for 100 miles). It will be one of his last 4* ~17 mile laps of a 100 mile run (6 laps total).
I asked some EN folks. Some (Danielle Santucchi notably) were concerned. They said if I race my 140.6 hard, that running 17 miles 3 weeks later may not be a good idea. But others suggested it shouldn't be a problem.
I've never race 140.6, but I would think I could do 17 miles at 10 minute pace 3 weeks after 140.6. What do you think?
PS. Al camp was epic! Wish you could've been there! You should totally come up for a day of Hoff camp! I am totally gung-ho to take on 6 gaps. With only 2-3 guys, I think it may be harder than our 211 mile day in Snowmass (which actually was surprisingly manageable for me, since I didn't pull much till the end, and I got to CO earlier than some other folks to acclimate).
PPS. I beat your time on the Ragnar Red loop as my 6th lap of ultra (ha ha ha!)! So you have to come to Al camp again next year to take that segment spot back ;).
Thanks!!
@Larry Peters you are a beast. So impressed. I am humbled. 😂
I say you CAN do it but be ready to suffer. And recover between them both. Focus is 110% on the full, the long run with your friend is all about FUN. And don’t let me see you training between them. 😡
how is your body feeling after the camp + run? Remember absorption is your primary post camp priority!!!
maybe a bit extra mustard and swim time.
Patrick
Hey @Coach Patrick , ha ha ha! Thanks!
Ok, cool, thanks for the input! I'll tell my friend.
Body feels good. I felt pretty strong all week. I've mostly been swimming. I've run a bit harder than I planned a couple times at the end of this week (including today), because I've been feeling fresh. But honestly, I had some niggles I was really concerned about going into camp, so I was pretty conservative. I didn't do anything on the first Friday and Saturday of camp. I only did 40 miles on Sunday of camp (instead of the 100 mile ride everyone else did) and I didn't ride or run at all on Thursday of camp. I was pretty acclimated cause I got there early which helped. My average HR for the 211 mile ride was 110 bpm. I was very conservative for that ride too because i was worried it would get hard, but it never got too hard. I even gave a strong 15 minute pull ~160 mile mark and the group had to ask me to slow down (granted, I had been sucking wheel the whole day before that).
Because I had some niggles, I did the first 5 ultra runs super conservatively with stretching and walking and peeing breaks. I did 11 mile hilly run today and kept HR mostly around TRP HR, but I did some hard ~20-90 second pushes up some hills & I feel a little tired out from that. But I have 3 more easy days scheduled before Hoff camp. The last 3 miles my HR decoupled from power because I was out of nutrition and getting light headed. But I kept power ~standard long run power which I hope to target for my IM run (~300 watts).
I think most of my niggles are due to changes in my weekly strength training routine caused by my broken hand. But it is healed now, and I think I'm getting my body back into balance.
Thanks for checking in and thanks for the shout out on weekly coach video!
Always happy to give you a shout out. I really appreciate how you balance your workout goals with how you feel that day. Blindly following a training plan “into a brick wall” doesn’t take skill or intelligence. What you’re doing is the right word, our goal now for the rest of the season just to keep you safe and healthy so your fitness can evolve! Hopefully you won’t mind your life being a little bit more boring 😂
~ Coach P
Thanks a ton @Coach Patrick ! Good skill at Placid camp! Hoff camp is a blast so far!!
Thanks you are a beast!!! 💪
Thanks so much @Coach Patrick ! BTW, I set up final surge. I put in power & HR zones for run and bike. But I want to wait to load the program till I can put in swim zones (based on The forum thread that said you cannot retroactively update your zones once a plan is loaded. ). I haven’t done a swim TT in a long time. I’m going to try to swim test week.
i have a solid 10 *100 on the 2’ yesterday FOLLowed by 5*200 on the 4’. NOt sure if I could extrapolate t-pace from this....
Update: I read more & it sounds like zones CAN be edited afternoon loading a plan (AS bill eckert describes).
Yes, you can edit the zones after you load a plan or update the zones as well. Instructions are on the Health website which is at: www.endurancenation.us/help
I think you could easily go with 125 as your target teepees. Those are some really consistent in our roles. I like your progression so far this year, and to give you some perspective.
I want to remind you that part of our goal is not just the race improvement but also establishing a good 2 to 3 your foundation of endurance upon which we can put some really great performances. It’s balancing those two goals that gets tricky sometimes.
Awesome, thanks a ton @Coach Patrick !
Hey @Coach Patrick , I'm really sorry to disappoint you with my recent accident. I'm obviously very disappointed too. I'll be honest, looking back, I still loved the adventure of that big, destination ride. Several lessons learned as I mentioned in group me.
I should be more hesitant to ride at night especially on a faster bike, and especially on unfamiliar roads/paths.
When and if i ride at night, I should take the time to properly adjust my headlights even if it delays my arrival, and I should remember to stay vigilant.
Remember, that even if you are on a bike path, you need to stay vigilant and you are not safe from danger.
I meet with the ortho surgeon tomorrow. I'll give you an update on recovery timeline and we can talk about next steps for training. At this point, I'm thinking this will be my "recovery/off" time and I will resume with RDP/OS type training.
As I said in group me, I'm still also very thankful for the awesome fitness adventures I had this summer and that in the big picture, this is relatively minor setback and I should be back to lots of fitness fun in the not-too-distant-future.
@Larry Peters don’t ever think that you have disappointed me! I empathize with you but only because I too have made many dumb mistakes and have suffered for them. That said, I have somehow always come back stronger.
I love the perspective you have about appreciating the adventure you are on even if it didn’t work out the way that you had intended. You are young, strong, and focused. If we can combine that with some good planning in the future, you will be practically unstoppable.
it’s almost like you were on a crash course of becoming insanely strong and fast but also had to get in all of the mistakes that the rest of us made at the same time, just on a compressed timeline!
The only other advice I have for you right now is to remember that keeping that incision clean and your shoulder dry is critical. If you recall, my incision became infected, and I had to have a second surgery to get the plate removed. That effectively doubled my time out of action. It’s very hard not to get it sweaty early on so be patient and let’s stay in touch!!
Thanks a ton for the kind, encouraging & cautionary words @Coach Patrick !
yikes, I didn’t realize your collarbone surgery got infected!
I have to ask: Were you on preventative antibiotics when your collarbone incision got infected? I hate the idea of taking preventative antibiotics, but every time I go for an incision or stitches, they seem to want to give Me preventative antibiotics.
thanks!
Honestly I don’t remember. I think I might’ve been on something but I definitely got carried away with the Exercise stuff, especially on the stationary bike. It also could’ve been something arbitrary from the surgery itself but always better to be safe than sorry.
Thanks a ton @Coach Patrick !! Surgery went well. I got 15 screws, surprisingly. He said there were eight or nine different pieces of bone he found and it was one of the worst ones he’s ever seen. Yikes!
Surprisingly they did not prescribe me preventative antibiotics even after I asked about it. I am actually glad because I don’t want to take them unless absolutely necessary, but it also means I will be more cautious with sweating on the incision. Your extra words of caution really help too. Thanks!!
Good god @Larry Peters Is there anything that you don’t do “full send?” Here’s to hoping you heal quickly.
Hey @Coach Patrick , I've been thinking about trying to get 2* 140.6 next season on one build. I know an athlete learns so much about execution and racing in each race, and I am sad I didn't get to do any big races this year. I'm hoping to double my learning with one build next year. Unless you think that is a terrible idea. I know many athletes on the team do it (like people doing Kona and IMCoz or Kona and IMAZ). I also don't know how easily I'll be able to do an IM in 2021. If work goes as planned, it will probably be a bad year to do an IM, so I may focus on running that year.
I thought doing 2*140.6 would drag out my season too much, but I see other people doing it without too much time in between races. I don't really feel comfortable committing to a full IM build during the school year. But in this case, I can get another race early in the fall semester mostly off my summer training. Danielle Santucchi thought 3 weeks was a perfect time (but that sounds short to me). I remember Al T saying something about 4-6 weeks (or some number) being a very bad period to race again.
I've read the wiki and a couple threads on this. Paul H said this:
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/25532/racing-2-ironmans-in-a-matter-of-weeks-your-thoughts#latest
"The accepted guidance is that if you are going to leverage 2 IMs off one build, then the optimal time frame is 3 weeks apart, 4 at most. I've done 20 days apart and it worked very well. If you go with 7 wks, then you cannot float the 2nd Ironman off the 1st, but will require a solid build block in between (say 2 wks recover, 3 wks full build and 2 wks taper). It's not ideal because 4 of the 7 weeks are lower TSS at a critical period."
You had 6 weeks between Kona and IMCoz, but you are pro....
I am doing IMMT 2020. I am registered for it through deferral.
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/25383/coach-p-1-ironman-cozumel-0-or-something-like-that
Options I'm considered:
1) IMMD 2020 is 4 weeks after IMMT (and is FLAT!! :) ). I would love to see how racing a flat course and hillier course (like IMMT) compares in general and for me personally. 13 hour drive. I would probably have to fly....
2) IMMoo is 3 weeks after IMMT (but is very hilly I hear). Only a 5 hour drive.
3) IMLV is 7 weeks after IMMT (6 hour drive). This would be long enough I would have to do a few weeks of serious work, but I think that would be manageable early in the fall semester, unlike most other times during the academic year.
4) IMLP 4 weeks before IMMT, but that is early in the summer and summer is critical training time for me. I think I would be rushed to be ready by late July. But I could probably do it and IMLP is supposed to be an awesome course (to hell with being worried about racing on hilly mountainous courses).
In the 3-4 weeks, I wouldn't expect to gain any fitness in between races (except maybe some swim fitness). In the 7 weeks, I could potentially gain a little fitness, or lose some (but hopefully maintain at the worst). What I'm really looking to gain is more experience with execution.
I figure either 1) I'll nail IMMT, and have a chance to take that fitness and experience and tweak some variables just to see how it plays out in a 2nd race. Learning lessons. or 2) I'll make an execution mistake and want a revenge race. This way I'll have one in the pipeline and I'll get lower tier pricing, and I won't have to worry about it selling out. 3) I'll execute well, but conditions may suck on race 1. Race 2 would give me a chance to apply what I did in race 1 and maybe have better conditions...
I would MOST LOVE to do an EN Key race, but IMSG is a terrible time of year for me to do an IM, and with recent changes in work schedule, it is even worse to try and race anything big that time of year.
What do you think?!?! I'm guessing this is generally discouraged. And I'm guessing it can go badly. But I am younger than many on the team...so that might help? ha ha ha.
Rob,It's not as bad and ideas you think.The key is that you are training for the first race. And not focused on the second one. Then we modify the transition. Training based on your first race performance. The MathWorks for everyone, the key is how healthy can you stay all year? You can get double the benefit, but you could lose twice as well. Only you can do the math on the risk/reward equation.
I like the idea of Maryland for you. It is not an easy race, but it will be about a straightforward as you could hope for coming off of another Iron Man. Let me know what the next step is for you!
Awesome, thanks a million @Coach Patrick ! I love the idea of adding IMMD!! Yes, it is a risk. But I really like the idea of not having all my eggs in one race basket. I’m probably going to pull the trigger pretty soon.
now the next crazy idea is....can I do ghost train 5 weeks after IMMD? 😂🤷🏻♂️😄🦄 I would love to be at a key race (Snowmass Ragnar is an option too...but I think there will be more team mojo at ghost train.)
PS. And what about adding Steelhead 70.3 on June 28th to my season (good idea, bad idea)? Kinda my back yard. 2-3 weeks after Al camp. And it will help get rid of pre-triathlon jitters after not having raced a tri since June 2018? I'm happy to do it with minimal taper. It seems like it is far away from IMMT enough that it would be ok? (Steelhead is 8 weeks prior to IMMT).
Follow-up.
I don't think I should try to squeeze in Ghost train. Ghost train is a Saturday race. I have the week that follows off from teaching, but if I do IMMD (a saturday race), I don't think I can do another Saturday race out of town. It is really hard for me to miss a class (so hard for me to travel to a race on a Friday). Unless, by some miracle, I don't teach on Fridays (which has never happened).
Big Sugar is at the end of my fall break on a Saturday. So that would work really well. But I'm thinking if I do 2 fall IMs, I should avoid any other big events just for general life stress/balance.
But I'm still interested to hear what you think about adding Steelhead 70.3 on 6/28 (8 weeks prior to IMMT). It is in my backyard and I've raced it before. Good idea/bad idea?
Hey @Coach Patrick , I am officially registered for IMMD 2020. I got permission to miss Friday from the boss. Then I realized you had to check in on Thursday, so I then asked for permission to miss Thursday too :) (insert laughing emoji). He said we could probably work around that. I'm super excited about this! I did pay for registration protection, so I'm hoping that will be the umbrella I don't need. ;)
Also, I know you've been slammed, "But I'm still interested to hear what you think about adding Steelhead 70.3 on 6/28 (8 weeks prior to IMMT). It is in my backyard and I've raced it before. Good idea/bad idea?"
If you think Steelhead 70.3 is a good idea or neutral idea, it may actually be my year to do 3 IM branded events and have another shot at AWA status (if I can actually make it to each race). One of my major goals in 2017 was to try and get AWA gold status, but with the hotel accident that year, I missed 2 of my 3 A races. (insert eyes rolled emoji).
Thanks for answering on coach office hours today!! @Coach Patrick have an awesome time with your daughter in Florida!! ❤️❤️❤️🎉🎉🎉
You got it and thanks for your patience!
~ Coach P
#RobDoesIMMD #lookoutEastCoast
@Larry Peters I got your Check-In update, and have pasted it below. This is part of our monthly process to stay connected, so thanks for filling it out!
Thanks for the kudos on the scientific stuff. I'm doing my best to shout out, and your feedback makes it worthwhile. If there's something that were missing I focus upon, I'm counting on you to let me know. Looking at your rankings, I feel like it's totally representative of where you're at: no swimming, but dominating everything else!
I love how you continue to challenge yourself physically, and that you are focusing on the bike. I feel like a former version of you might've tried to do too much running, but you seem to be wiser now. Your epic bike adventure sounds incredible. I think that something like an average of 162 miles a day. At that speed you won't even have to pack a tent because who needs to stop.
In terms of preparation for that, you will definitely want to do a small block of back to back days. If you have 10 days to prepare, I would do to three day cycles. Day one will "pre load" some fatigue and be focused.
Then you can rest two full days...repeat...and then go for it.
Let me know if I can help more!
~ Coach P
As a reminder, Rob Gronk Peters Is on the TeamEN (Coaching + Community Level) and is following the Other Plan / DIY Training.
His Rankings are as follows:
- Swim Fitness vs Last Month: 1
- Bike Fitness vs Last Month: 3
- Run Fitness vs Last Month: 3
- Body Comp vs Last Month: 3
Next month's focus: Contemplating a ~1300 mile, ultra light bike tour around lake MI with a buddy. We would be attempting to do it in pretty epic fashion (8 day’s or so). (It would be in early August. Gives me 2 weeks to bike a ton, then about 10 day’s to taper)
Extra help request: Keep being awesome! I love it when you post recent studies about endurance performance.