I'm putting our recent discussion from the chat window in here, since it belonged here and so it is recorded here (NO NEED FOR YOU TO READ THIS AGAIN, but do please see the post that follows this one Coach P ):
Background: I had to miss last week's VO2 max bike interval workout, and my bike volume was a little low last week . Also, I ran in a 3 day relay race this weekend and ran "all out/race pace" 5 times this weekend (for a total of ~28 miles, mostly technical wet, muddy trails).
Question 1) Should I preemptively take it easy (i.e., similar volume, but reduced intensity) at all this week to make sure I"m recovered from 3 hard days of running/racing? I had a lot of sustained time at high HR this weekend. (Or should I attempt to stick with the workouts until I have signs of overtraining?)
Question 2) Since I ran so hard this weekend & missed the VO2 max intervals on the bike last week, should I replace this week's VO2 max running intervals with VO2 max biking intervals (and just do a lower intensity run)? If I did this, the additional VO2 max bike intervals could be a total bonus on top of the prescribed week of training, OR they could be in place of Wednesday's 80 min zone 4 interval bike workout (Week 17 of Intermediate HIM program). Suggestions?
My weekend runs: Day 1 (Friday): 10 miles, HR 147; Day 2 (Saturday) 3.14 miles HR 146; 6.63 miles HR 144; Day 3 (Sunday) 4.30 miles HR 149; 3.66 miles HR 149 (my zone 3 running HR is 140-146, zone 4 is 146-155)
Larry - Holy moly, you just sent me a different text messages. You do have a coaches throw it in the forum where you can type anything you want me to answer those every single day. That's probably a better use of our communication than individual messages. I'm gonna go back and read them and see if I can get all answers lined up for you. Stay tuned!
1) yes I would do today's, and work out through Friday, for time and not intensity. 28 miles I've done in a high intensity is a great work out and we want to give your body enough time to absorb it!
2) no one single session is that important to us. Your body doesn't really discern between VO2 running or do you want to cycling, it's still a VO2 stress on your system. Given the sheer amount of work you did last week I think you are fine; we need to focus on recovery purposes how to squeeze in more hard work.
3) no need to test in week 17, sorry for the mixup and I will fix it.
4) yes that's right you go under my plan and the navigation you can schedule a call when you want!
New Questions: 1) My 70.3 is coming up on 8/13 and I'm very excited. So obviously, I'm in taper time. I had a first date this morning that went well. She is just getting into mountain biking and asked if I wanted to go on a mountain biking date next week. I am totally up for that & enjoy mountain biking. But I want to make sure I am fully resting my body leading up to my 70.3. I see that next Tuesday's bike workout looks like this: Bike: Taper Total Work: TSS 79; IF 0.89 WU: 15' Easy, include 34 x 30" SpinUps.. MS:4 x 8' (2') @ Zone 3. WD: 5' Easy I don't think she goes too fast and I could tell her I want to take it easy. Would going mountain with this girl on a date the week before my 70.3 be a bad idea (assuming I take it easy). If so, should I try to incorporate these main sets into the mountain bike ride? I could easily see it going on for more like 1.5-2 hours rather than 1 hour. I don't think it would be a problem if I told her I would love to go mountain biking any other week, but not this week, if you think that would be better for my 70.3 performance.
2) Looking ahead to the week after my 70.3: I will have 8 weeks from my 70.3 until the Chicago Marathon. If it is possible, I would really like to break 3hr10min so I can BQ. Based on my 25K performance in May it sounded like you thought it might be possible for me to do that. I plan to switch to the EN marathon training program after my 70.3 on 8/13. Should I plan to go easy for a whole week after the 70.3, or wait and see how I perform and how my body feels during the first few workouts post IM?
@Larry Peters - thank you for the update and for consolidating this. You've done all the right work, now the hard part comes with resting and getting your head screwed on straight. If you have an already spent a ton of time there, I suggest you hit the race execution section of the website under the resources area to know about your training plan. I would also do some research on the forums to make sure you don't make any of the most common mistakes.
There's really nothing you can do this week that will make a break to race. I have no problem with you swapping out your training ride for a phone mail and bike ride. Being rested and happy heading into the race is ideal… Not a problem. Most of these workouts are here just to keep you sane and on track, not for some magical performance benefit. Do your best to stay loose every day, and continue to review that race plan so you can do a great job of executing.
Once you are through the race I want to full days off to recover. Then you can get back to send you the swimming and recycling just to get loose. Ideally we have you getting in some form of around the following weekend… But let's plan on connecting during the week about your performance the next steps.
Hey @Coach Patrick , thanks a million! I'm super pumped! I got my tri-bike back from the carbon repair shop just in time for the race!!
Ok, "two full days off to recover" That will be seriously tough! Can I do yoga during those two days? Maybe "slow flow" yoga (more stretching).
Great, we can connect next week. I will book a coach call if there is one available.
One question I'm going to try to get from the forums & stuff: when I do my open water swim practices/RR's, I am swimming alone (and pulling a visibility bouy for safety). How much faster might I be able to go if I get behind someone & draft? Also, some suggestions I read said to start steady on the swim (and not too fast), but I also would love to get in the slip stream of some faster swimmers if I can. I managed to draft ok during my last tri (an olympic tri in 2010).
Yes you can do yoga, anything is the same but the exercise sometimes isn't always the answer.
Yes drafting of someone is faster, but working harder to try and draft off someone has long-term negative consequences on your race. Your goal should be to swim just off the side of someone's hips so you are breathing around their knees. That's the safest place to be and if they pull away, you can always get on the feet.
Try to stay engaged on the swim but don't go nuts chasing every set of feet you see!
next week will be tough as I am racing in Canada, but I'm here alone if you need me.
Here is the thread in which I asked the team: "Can I BQ in Chicago on 10/8/17?" I added it to a relevant thread to see if anyone else on the team wanted to chime in (I didn't get any comments yet, so if I don't after a while, I may make my own thread for it, so it isn't buried at the bottom of someone else's thread):
Also, side note, I am running with the charity "Team Fox" in Chicago (for Parkinsons Disease). Amy Yok-Ming Wong is on that team with me and recognized my EN jersey in a pic/post about my 70.3 and said she knew you in Boston and ran the Boston Marathon the same year you did.
@Larry Peters - thanks for the note...and yes...that's the one...I modified it for you and am putting it here as an image so the forum plays nice. My edit for this week is to do 2 x 10 mile runs...one Sat, one Sunday...then it's game on. Week of 8/21 don't worry about exactly hitting zones...it might take a week to settle in!
Congrats on the great finish & KQ!! That's awesome!
I have a few questions. I tried to wait until at least a few days after IMMT so you had some time to get your feet on the ground .
Summary: 1) When to do weekly leg strength training during this marathon build? 2) When to follow HR and when to follow pace when trying to run in a given zone (my HR zones rarely match up with my pace zones)? 3) Would you have some advice for next season goals and my "2 year plan?" I wouldn't bring this up now, except registration is opening for some IM events.....
More Details & related thoughts:
Based on the last time I asked you and my understanding, I'm thinking Wednesday would be the best day. I'd have freshest legs for the 5k pace interval work on Mondays & tempo work on Tuesdays. This would probably mean I won't be able to run GRP on Thursdays, but hopefully my legs will be fresher for the Saturday GRP long runs if I lift on Wednesday instead of Thursday or Friday. Alternatively, I could try to lift on Mondays after speedwork. Actually, that may be the best time...? It would slow my tempo work, but I would be maximally recovered for Saturday's GRP run...What do you think?
I'm thinking I should run based on "pace" (and let the HR go where it will) for the 5k interval work and the GRP long run on Saturday. On the other days I'll keep my HR in check based on the guidelines. At the Austin Marathon last February, I averaged ~145 bpm (that maybe very slightly exaggerated, because the monitor gave an erroneous spike in HR right at the beginning of the race. See image below). 146 is the beginning of my zone 4, so I should be able to keep a high HR for a full marathon.
Goals I'm thinking about: How high could I score in the IM AWA program? If i do more than one 70.3 in a year, I should easily be able to get bronze. More exciting than that would be to see how high I could place in my AG in a 70.3 in a single race. I think I have a lot of room to improve. I only returned to biking and swimming after a multi-year hiatus in March 2017 and didn't have a real "get faster" out season. Next year I'll move to an older age group, which may help. Looking at this year's 35-39 AG results, I'm tempted to think I could break in the top 10. In the longer term, could I get a 3rd place in my AG? It is too soon to tell, but obviously I think about whether or not in 2 years I could have a shot at a 70.3 World Championship Qualification if it rolls down to 2nd or 3rd place in my age group? Another different goal would be to race a season of short course races put on by one of my local organizers. If you sign up for the season and score the most cumulative points based on *overall* classification, you win free races for life. In 2010, I looked at that and thought that might be something to shoot for, even if it is a stretch. But since I want to BQ, I thought a 70.3-related goal would be better than a season full of short course racing goal.
@Larry Peters - I don't recommend lifting during the marathon build. It's too much and your legs are being hammered....whatever you do it won't be beneficial to your performance.
I agree on pace for the intervals & GRP runs.... but still please track it. We'll want to go back and look at it.
Your AWA goal is great! I think that you'll be successful given your first race (well done!) but that will happen vs chasing. You'll want to have 3 70.3s on the schedule so you can score enough points. And those races will also give you chances to get a slot.
Your early start now is on the Run Durability program to start laying the foundation for all of your training. Onwards!!
Awesome, thanks a ton @Coach Patrick !! I appreciate your encouragement to pursue that AWA goal!
During my winter marathon build & most of my IM/2 build this summer, I typically had to do a leg strength training session ~once per week to stay injury free. (things like single leg squats & leg press, leg extensions, inner/outer thigh, calf/shin raises & single leg straight leg dead lift). Granted, my legs have a hell of a lot more training/durability in them now (compared to last winter), and probably more than during the earlier part of my IM/2 build. If I strength train for several consecutive weeks, I can usually skip a week or two without having the "spots/niggles" flare up. But when they do, strength training makes the pains go away.
I could skip the most strenuous leg lifts next week (squats & deadlifts, and maybe leg extensions), and do a powerflow yoga class instead and see how that goes. I will probably still do the calf/shin exercises (they are body weight anyway) and the inner/outer thigh exercises.
I may schedule a call with you in the coming week or two to discuss which 3*70.3's to pick and how much they should be spaced apart. Or maybe we can just discuss it here...
Oh and one major point: I'll be taking college students to Costa Rica for 2 weeks in early May 2018 (first half). It will probably be difficult for me to bike and swim during that time. I guess I could take a bike and a trainer? But swimming will probably be harder. So we'll need to consider that in picking dates for races.
My thoughts:
Definitely Steelhead 70.3 in Benton Harbor, MI (early/mid August) - Reasons: It is a great time of year for me with work/training balance, I can practice on the course, I've raced it before, its economical for me (1.5 hour drive) and the conditions are similar to what I can train on regularly. (and it doesn't sell out)
Something in late June maybe? Buffalo Lake Texas? They say the course is very tough. Probably because it is so hot? It sounds like it has some climbing too, which I'm hesitant about because we have hills around where I live, but not mountains and I'd like to play to my strengths. I guess 1000 feet of climbing over 56 miles isn't any hillier than some places where I live...but it would be way hotter. Also that time of year is IM 70.3 MT & Coure d'Alene, which sound like epic and beautiful races/courses. But I don't know how much of a disadvantage I'd be at not having mountains to climb around here...thoughts?
Then 1-2 events in the fall? Maybe Lake Placid or Atlantic City if they about 1 month after Steelhead (early-mid September)
Another possible time slot: I could do something the 3rd week in October, because it is my fall break and I don't have to teach for a week. North Carolina, Miami (flat and probably not too hot that time of year), New Orleans (ditto).
I would say a race in July, like Ohio or Muncie but I like to do a 3 day relay running race in mid-July (Great Lakes Relay), which I imagine would make it tough to do a 70.3 in July and have a proper taper or recovery.
So I guess two season options would be:
1) June race (Buffalo lake, M Tremblanc 70.3, or Ceour d'Alene 70.3), 2) early/mid August (Steelhead), & 3) fall race (September or October, lots of choices) (this allows me to race twice during the summer when my schedule is more flexible & less demanding. I normally do research in the summer, but I could potentially take all next summer off to train full time. But I'd lose a 6% bonus.).
1) Steelhead (early/mid August) 2) early/mid September (Lake Placid of Atlantic City) 3) 3rd week in October (several choices) (this requires me to race twice during the "school year" when my schedule is less flexible and more demanding. But I should be tenured next fall, so that takes some pressure off. I normally do research in the summer, but I could potentially take all next summer off to train full time. But I'd lose a 6% bonus.)
Thoughts on those season options? I guess option 2 is probably best for performance, since I won't have to compete on mountains with guys who live in the mountains, and option 2 would give more time to rebuild fitness after my 2 week Costa Rica work trip in early May. But I also love Quebec and the mountains, so M Tremblanc and Ceour d'Alene sound exciting!
@Larry Peters - under your two season choice section, I like the one where you do June, August, and then the fall. That's enough time to recover from Costa Rica and get fit enough. The trip to Costa Rica will also be a nice break for you mentally from all the winter training.
The biggest thing will be setting some intermediary goals over the winter, we do this with the entire team at the start of the outs season, to keep you motivated without a race on the calendar. You have made some good progress and the next step here is to keep up the consistency when everyone else starts fading.
Don't worry so much about hilly course versus flat course, as long as you are a smart triathlete you will be OK! And you might as will race an awesome places, right?
So, if I plan to do Steelhead for August 12th, how many weeks would I want before a September 70.3 (if I go for a September instead of an October race) to have the best performance? Would 3 weeks be too little? Would 4 weeks be enough?
@Larry Peters - three weeks would be the shortest window, anything from 4 to 6 weeks is not a problem. Whichever when you choose we can make it work, your job is to make sure it works for your schedule and family.
Maybe start brainstorming those winter goals, the time will come to set them soon enough!
Swim (I know swimming is not a focus of the EN OUTseason, but I figure I"ll need to swim at some point this winter).
Improve stroke form & endurance. Improve 1000 yard TT time; maybe 14’30’’ is a good goal (1:27 pace)?
Establish PRs for 100 & 200 yard sprints?
1 mile US Master's postal swim?
A Masters swim meet?
Run
If I don't qualify for Boston in Chicago, my original idea (before hearing about how marathon racing was not a great compliment for ironman training/racing in an EN podcast) was to run an early season marathon & try to qualify there. But another marathon would not be ideal for triathlon season performance....I'm just going to have to BQ this October.
1 mile PR (could i ever break 5 minutes? I never did in high school track, so it may not be realistic). This is an existing goal.
Break 18 minutes in a 5k. This is an existing goal.
Can I break my old 10k record? 6:18 pace (it was a somewhat hilly course).
Half marathon PR?
Bike
KOM on as many local strava segments as possible!! I've gotten a couple already and I'm drooling over several. I'm pretty sure I was within striking distance this summer. But I wasn't always doing 1-2 min intervals (which is the length of many segments around me). If the EN OUTseason program is all about short, fast sprints, I will LOVE that and love trying to take as many KOMs as possible. This will be limited when the roads get wet or snowy this winter...
Barry Roubaix is supposedly the "largest gravel road race in the world." I've done it before, is near me & it is fun. I won the beginner race in 2010. 4/21/18. I could train for this with hopes of placing well in my age group, maybe?
During spring break 2018 (early March) go out west (or to Appalachia) for a big cycling trip in the mountains?
Ideal would be using power & getting a higher “FTP”
*Should* not get power till I have enough money to buy a new car and a bigger “emergency fund.” I had $8000 in non-elective dental surgery this year....
@Larry Peters - For the swim, it’s not so much about what you do (if you are going to swim in the winter) but how often you do it. So, set up a schedule you can commit too….even if it’s 1x per week, etc. Consistency matters. I vote swim towards the Postal TT, and a set target…60k in 3 months (5k a week)…and after that, we can target some speed work, etc…perhaps in alignment with the end of your OS.
For the Run, I like the 5k goal. This would sit well with our OS training (but might be hard to do in the winter). I bet after your marathon and about 4 weeks of rest, 2 being light running, you could run a pretty damn fast 5k. Just a thought. 10k could be end of OS target (vs the typical 13.1).
For the bike, I am okay with you Strava hunting until the OS begins. Remember OS riding is about riding in the same place the whole OS…so we don’t want 5 weeks outside 9 inside. If you’ll be inside…then start inside. But for now, ride to warm up and then go hunting…probably 3 to 4 different ones in a go…worth it to see at least which ones you are close to getting and you can plot more for 2018!
I vote yes to the Barry (easy post OS) and yes to the Spring Break ride..even if it’s just 3 to 4 days…long hours on the bike add up and make you stronger, and the Spring is a great time to do it! I hope the training is going well!!
Awesome, thanks @Coach Patrick ! I appreciate the feedback!
Training is going very well! I'll post some updates in the "Qualify for Boston" thread soon. I'm pretty much hitting pace targets for a 3hr8min marathon, with some hills...maybe a bit faster, maybe a bit slower.
Ugh. It will be tough to ride inside when the weather is still ok for riding outside. And it will be hard to monitor progress without power. But I could try to watch cadence (if I get my old CatEye working again) and notice what gear I'm in. That was one very rough measure of progress I used to notice indoors. Obviously, it is pretty large scale. Depending on finances, I MAY be able to hunt for a power meter on Cyber Monday or something. But then I would probably need a new bike computer (a lot more $$$) unless my Suunto Ambit 2 GPS watch can record the power data. I have some big dental surgery bills that I need to check on and a couple other things to check on financially, so we'll see. I did cancel my $60 a month hot yoga membership (starting in October). It was a 5 pass per month membership. I think the regular hot yoga is really good for me and the location of the studio is super convenient, but I'm going to try practicing at home 4-5 times a month with a DVD (or maybe the EN outseason core exercises), and see if I can get similar benefits.
Regarding Strava hunting: With the BQ focus right now, I'm cutting weight & not biking much at all (except for some commuting), so I probably won't be fit/strong enough to really be a contender for local strava segments until after a solid OutSeason. So I could always have the Strava segments be carrots waiting in the post-outseason spring.
One important typo for the "Postal Swim Goal." I typed "1 mile," but the race is really a 1 hour time trial in the pool. So it ends up being over 2 miles race distance. Is that too long of a swim race to focus on given my 70.3 race focus only requiring a 1.2 mile swim?
I'm cutting weight pretty effectively and body fat is dropping (more slowly than weight). I'm below 180 lbs this morning for only the 2nd time I've ever recorded (I'm 6'2.5''). That is incredibly empowering and exciting! EN resources like discussions w/ teammates & a podcast from Coach Rich really gave me the inspiration, motivation (and suggested phone app) to do it. I really think this has been critical in me hitting my long run target paces.
@Larry Peters - Thanks for the check in! I'm pleased to hear the running is going well and I agree that the body composition is a huge part of it. Continue to be as disciplined as you can, but remember after the race it's OK to let it go a little bit. At that size being able to manipulate your body composition is a super power and can only be used a few times a year.
You know there are some services, like our partners at Trainer Road, that do "virtual" power. Based on the Friction curve of your trainer, if him roughly predict your power. That in and of it's self can be a good tool in is a heck of a lot cheaper than a real power meter. It's only good for the indoors, but for right now that will be good enough.
You can absolutely do the postal swim. Nothing wrong with swimming big yards even if it's more than your race. Side note, I already knew it was a one hour swim but I didn't want to say anything!
Aside from a 3:15 to ~3:45 pm today, I should be pretty flexible today if you can talk another time today. I know you are really focused on Kona right now, but I'm very eager to look over the data from my build and talk about (hopefully) BQ pacing for Chicago. I have some availability other days/evenings this week too. My work schedule is more flexible than some (as long as I'm not teaching or in a meeting at a certain time).
I am currently finishing some spreadsheet summaries in google sheets. I will share them when they are finished. (I've been pretty slammed, so I haven't had a chance to post in the Aspire to BQ forum yet, but should soon.)
I could do a lot of (or all of) our discussion here in the forum if that works better for you.
Also, just to include here an update in my training we discussed in the RDP Group me: I totally hit the wall on Saturday 9/23/17 (last "long run" of my build, technically already start of the taper: 15 miles instead of 18 or 20). I had a couple weeks that stretched me too thin w/ some mild & some acute sleep deprivation, some more work stress, and the cumulative fatigue of 4 weeks of hard running. So you told me to take Sunday and Monday off. I cut the Saturday 15 miler to 10.8. I honestly had to push, really, really hard to get that far with some breaks (granted it was 90-95 deg F, and I was running in uncovered areas for a fair bit). Monday's run was a little speed work that I skipped completely.
@Coach Patrick detailed post from me with lots of data in a google spreadsheet & links to key strava workouts now in the "Aspire to BQ in 2018 thread." The post has more than what is below, but here are the keys:
Hey @Coach Patrick , cool, thanks! On Monday, 9/18, I clicked "book a coach call" under "Training Plan," and booked a coach call " 02:30pm (Eastern Time - US & Canada) on September 26, 2017 is scheduled." I got a Calendly confirmation (see attached). First I tried the "Need a longer call / more time? Book a Consult with Coach Patrick" under "book a coach call." That required a payment, so then I booked the appointment with: "Schedule a FREE 15-minute call with Coach Patrick (unlimited to new Trials), all other Members are Limited to One Call Every Three Months" under the prominent "Book a Coach Call" heading under the "Coach Patrick" bio. It said "week 2 Coach Call," so I figured there was something wrong with the system that needed to be updated after the transition of the 2 coach system to 1 coach system & corresponding website updates. But I figured that I got the calendly confirmation, so I would be on your calendar, and we could talk about current stuff.
I should've messaged you to confirm it sooner, but I figured the Calendly confirmation was enough.
Now I tried the "Free 15' Call every 3 months" under the side bar "additional help" menu, under "Members."
Does the ""Schedule a FREE 15-minute call with Coach Patrick (unlimited to new Trials), all other Members are Limited to One Call Every Three Months." link not work for members? If that doesn't work, it may be helpful to indicate that more clearly somehow.
Did the 10/19 appointment I set up today work?
Is there anyway we can chat before the race on 10/8?
Regardless, I look forward to hearing your feedback in the forum.
I noticed another member posted this today in the general feed, which is very relevant to my questions:
“The Boston Marathon entry cutoff got even harder this year! To get in for 2018 you had to be at least 3:23 below your age group's qualifying time.”
@Larry Peters - sorry for the mixup on the call, my calendar is not easy open that late and I was in physical therapy… Never saw it .
I usually do between 35 and 50 calls a week with our members, so it’s more a function of bandwidth, esp with new members coming on. This is why I ask people to try and use the forums instead of frequently calling me. Those links work for all members, but depending on how Endurance Nation evolves, I may have to move some flavor of future calls to a paid model (even if it’s just an incentive for people to use the forums instead!).
The next time we have a call, if I don’t call you within five minutes you’re welcome to call and text me to see what’s up.
One of the reasons my calendar is limited is because I leave for Hawaii next week for industry meetings, supporting the team, and of course Racing. I should have some time available this Monday, so text me in the morning and we will set something up: 6175133830
@Larry Peters - Across the forms with different people I see you repeatedly asking the same question: what do you think I can run. Ultimately, only you know that number. No one has spent more time running with you within yourself. That and apparently a ton of poop has all of your reports mention the word poop.
As others have mentioned, there are plenty of constraints on the course that is Chicago simply due to the crowds and of course the potential for weather. You’ve done a ton of great training and good focus on your body composition as well. Now you have to be able to go out and run that race day according to how we recommend you pay Saturday. This is no small task in a marathon given how easy the early miles are, and how hard the late Miles can be.
The biggest mistake you could make us going out to aggressively. If you’re going to move from the 307 to a 303, that will simply happen starting after mile six with some good pacing. If you get aggressive at the start and try and make something magical happen you will likely run into trouble. Another words, you just can’t force it. When your race and that this let’s fall where they may. At some point in time you’re going to have to decide how hard you want to work in maintaining the piece that you are running relative to the finish. Despite all the spreadsheets and data, the decision is a very binary one and only you know what happens during that conversation.
I look forward to talking with you more this week if you still want to.
Hey @Coach Patrick , cool, thanks a ton! No sweat on the phone call. It happens to us all. I didn't realize I had your direct number. I saved it and I'll do that next time.
I am also trying to not abuse the phone appointments, but I can understand that it adds a ton to your work load. It is a really nice feature of Team EN. Since I'm a first year, I imagine I have more questions than I would after I've been on the team for a season. But if you have to go to a pay-per-call model at some point, I understand.
Thanks for the advice. Yeah, I guess I was getting caught up a bit in thinking that I'll really be able to have the exact control over running 7:03 pace or 7:08 pace. But I then remembered what my 25k was like in May. I'm going to shoot for a goal pace, and I'll have to see what my legs can do. Its not like I'll be able to carefully adjust mile-by-mile from 7:03 pace to 7:08 pace.
But I would love to chat about target heart rate and just hear your thoughts.
Yeah, sorry about all the poop talk. I have active bowels and eat a lot of fruits & veggies (I eat a lot less while training & racing) & managing them for endurance racing is one of my big challenges.
I got some good feedback from Al & Peter this weekend on the thread. I am going to reply soon and think about their suggestions.
Regarding Monday, I could chat between 9-9:30 am, 10:30-10:50 am, 11:35-11:55 am or anytime after ~4:40 pm. I'll text you tomorrow morning. Thanks!
Comments
Your responses:
Larry - Holy moly, you just sent me a different text messages. You do have a coaches throw it in the forum where you can type anything you want me to answer those every single day. That's probably a better use of our communication than individual messages. I'm gonna go back and read them and see if I can get all answers lined up for you. Stay tuned!
New Questions:
1) My 70.3 is coming up on 8/13 and I'm very excited. So obviously, I'm in taper time. I had a first date this morning that went well. She is just getting into mountain biking and asked if I wanted to go on a mountain biking date next week. I am totally up for that & enjoy mountain biking. But I want to make sure I am fully resting my body leading up to my 70.3. I see that next Tuesday's bike workout looks like this: Bike: Taper Total Work: TSS 79; IF 0.89 WU: 15' Easy, include 34 x 30" SpinUps.. MS:4 x 8' (2') @ Zone 3. WD: 5' Easy I don't think she goes too fast and I could tell her I want to take it easy. Would going mountain with this girl on a date the week before my 70.3 be a bad idea (assuming I take it easy). If so, should I try to incorporate these main sets into the mountain bike ride? I could easily see it going on for more like 1.5-2 hours rather than 1 hour. I don't think it would be a problem if I told her I would love to go mountain biking any other week, but not this week, if you think that would be better for my 70.3 performance.
2) Looking ahead to the week after my 70.3: I will have 8 weeks from my 70.3 until the Chicago Marathon. If it is possible, I would really like to break 3hr10min so I can BQ. Based on my 25K performance in May it sounded like you thought it might be possible for me to do that. I plan to switch to the EN marathon training program after my 70.3 on 8/13. Should I plan to go easy for a whole week after the 70.3, or wait and see how I perform and how my body feels during the first few workouts post IM?
Thanks!
(Larry) Rob
Do your best to stay loose every day, and continue to review that race plan so you can do a great job of executing.
Ok, "two full days off to recover" That will be seriously tough! Can I do yoga during those two days? Maybe "slow flow" yoga (more stretching).
Great, we can connect next week. I will book a coach call if there is one available.
One question I'm going to try to get from the forums & stuff: when I do my open water swim practices/RR's, I am swimming alone (and pulling a visibility bouy for safety). How much faster might I be able to go if I get behind someone & draft? Also, some suggestions I read said to start steady on the swim (and not too fast), but I also would love to get in the slip stream of some faster swimmers if I can. I managed to draft ok during my last tri (an olympic tri in 2010).
Thanks!
-Rob
next week will be tough as I am racing in Canada, but I'm here alone if you need me.
Exciting! Good luck next week! If you are too busy to respond or chat for a while next week, I will understand. I hope you have a great race!
Good luck again!
Was this the run build wiki article you were thinking about (either way, it sounds relevant, so I'll check it out)?
"Final 12 Weeks to BQ Marathon: Volume & Specificit"
http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/91/Default.aspx?topic=Final+12+Weeks+to+BQ+Marathon:+Volume+&+Specificit
Bummer I don't have 12 weeks, but we'll see what we can do!
Thanks!
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/23671/larrys-steelhead-70-3-detailed-race-report#latest
Here is the thread in which I asked the team: "Can I BQ in Chicago on 10/8/17?" I added it to a relevant thread to see if anyone else on the team wanted to chime in (I didn't get any comments yet, so if I don't after a while, I may make my own thread for it, so it isn't buried at the bottom of someone else's thread):
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/23576/aspire-to-bq-in-2018#latest
Also, side note, I am running with the charity "Team Fox" in Chicago (for Parkinsons Disease). Amy Yok-Ming Wong is on that team with me and recognized my EN jersey in a pic/post about my 70.3 and said she knew you in Boston and ran the Boston Marathon the same year you did.
Congrats on the great finish & KQ!! That's awesome!
I have a few questions. I tried to wait until at least a few days after IMMT so you had some time to get your feet on the ground
Summary:
1) When to do weekly leg strength training during this marathon build?
2) When to follow HR and when to follow pace when trying to run in a given zone (my HR zones rarely match up with my pace zones)?
3) Would you have some advice for next season goals and my "2 year plan?" I wouldn't bring this up now, except registration is opening for some IM events.....
More Details & related thoughts:
I agree on pace for the intervals & GRP runs.... but still please track it. We'll want to go back and look at it.
Your AWA goal is great! I think that you'll be successful given your first race (well done!) but that will happen vs chasing. You'll want to have 3 70.3s on the schedule so you can score enough points. And those races will also give you chances to get a slot.
Your early start now is on the Run Durability program to start laying the foundation for all of your training. Onwards!!
During my winter marathon build & most of my IM/2 build this summer, I typically had to do a leg strength training session ~once per week to stay injury free.
I could skip the most strenuous leg lifts next week (squats & deadlifts, and maybe leg extensions), and do a powerflow yoga class instead and see how that goes. I will probably still do the calf/shin exercises (they are body weight anyway) and the inner/outer thigh exercises.
I may schedule a call with you in the coming week or two to discuss which 3*70.3's to pick and how much they should be spaced apart. Or maybe we can just discuss it here...
Oh and one major point: I'll be taking college students to Costa Rica for 2 weeks in early May 2018 (first half). It will probably be difficult for me to bike and swim during that time. I guess I could take a bike and a trainer? But swimming will probably be harder. So we'll need to consider that in picking dates for races.
My thoughts:
- Definitely Steelhead 70.3 in Benton Harbor, MI (early/mid August) - Reasons: It is a great time of year for me with work/training balance, I can practice on the course, I've raced it before, its economical for me (1.5 hour drive) and the conditions are similar to what I can train on regularly. (and it doesn't sell out)
- Something in late June maybe? Buffalo Lake Texas? They say the course is very tough. Probably because it is so hot? It sounds like it has some climbing too, which I'm hesitant about because we have hills around where I live, but not mountains and I'd like to play to my strengths. I guess 1000 feet of climbing over 56 miles isn't any hillier than some places where I live...but it would be way hotter. Also that time of year is IM 70.3 MT & Coure d'Alene, which sound like epic and beautiful races/courses. But I don't know how much of a disadvantage I'd be at not having mountains to climb around here...thoughts?
- Then 1-2 events in the fall? Maybe Lake Placid or Atlantic City if they about 1 month after Steelhead (early-mid September)
- Another possible time slot: I could do something the 3rd week in October, because it is my fall break and I don't have to teach for a week. North Carolina, Miami (flat and probably not too hot that time of year), New Orleans (ditto).
- I would say a race in July, like Ohio or Muncie but I like to do a 3 day relay running race in mid-July (Great Lakes Relay), which I imagine would make it tough to do a 70.3 in July and have a proper taper or recovery.
So I guess two season options would be:Thoughts on those season options? I guess option 2 is probably best for performance, since I won't have to compete on mountains with guys who live in the mountains, and option 2 would give more time to rebuild fitness after my 2 week Costa Rica work trip in early May. But I also love Quebec and the mountains, so M Tremblanc and Ceour d'Alene sound exciting!
Thanks!
-Rob
The biggest thing will be setting some intermediary goals over the winter, we do this with the entire team at the start of the outs season, to keep you motivated without a race on the calendar. You have made some good progress and the next step here is to keep up the consistency when everyone else starts fading.
Don't worry so much about hilly course versus flat course, as long as you are a smart triathlete you will be OK! And you might as will race an awesome places, right?
So, if I plan to do Steelhead for August 12th, how many weeks would I want before a September 70.3 (if I go for a September instead of an October race) to have the best performance? Would 3 weeks be too little? Would 4 weeks be enough?
Yes, some winter goals sound great!
Thanks!
M Tremblanc 70.3 is sold out
Without thinking too much about it:
Swim (I know swimming is not a focus of the EN OUTseason, but I figure I"ll need to swim at some point this winter).
Improve stroke form & endurance. Improve 1000 yard TT time; maybe 14’30’’ is a good goal (1:27 pace)?
Establish PRs for 100 & 200 yard sprints?
1 mile US Master's postal swim?
A Masters swim meet?
Run
If I don't qualify for Boston in Chicago, my original idea (before hearing about how marathon racing was not a great compliment for ironman training/racing in an EN podcast) was to run an early season marathon & try to qualify there. But another marathon would not be ideal for triathlon season performance....I'm just going to have to BQ this October.
1 mile PR (could i ever break 5 minutes? I never did in high school track, so it may not be realistic). This is an existing goal.
Break 18 minutes in a 5k. This is an existing goal.
Can I break my old 10k record? 6:18 pace (it was a somewhat hilly course).
Half marathon PR?
Bike
KOM on as many local strava segments as possible!! I've gotten a couple already and I'm drooling over several. I'm pretty sure I was within striking distance this summer. But I wasn't always doing 1-2 min intervals (which is the length of many segments around me). If the EN OUTseason program is all about short, fast sprints, I will LOVE that and love trying to take as many KOMs as possible. This will be limited when the roads get wet or snowy this winter...
Barry Roubaix is supposedly the "largest gravel road race in the world." I've done it before, is near me & it is fun. I won the beginner race in 2010. 4/21/18. I could train for this with hopes of placing well in my age group, maybe?
During spring break 2018 (early March) go out west (or to Appalachia) for a big cycling trip in the mountains?
Ideal would be using power & getting a higher “FTP”
*Should* not get power till I have enough money to buy a new car and a bigger “emergency fund.” I had $8000 in non-elective dental surgery this year....
For the Run, I like the 5k goal. This would sit well with our OS training (but might be hard to do in the winter). I bet after your marathon and about 4 weeks of rest, 2 being light running, you could run a pretty damn fast 5k. Just a thought. 10k could be end of OS target (vs the typical 13.1).
For the bike, I am okay with you Strava hunting until the OS begins. Remember OS riding is about riding in the same place the whole OS…so we don’t want 5 weeks outside 9 inside. If you’ll be inside…then start inside. But for now, ride to warm up and then go hunting…probably 3 to 4 different ones in a go…worth it to see at least which ones you are close to getting and you can plot more for 2018!
I vote yes to the Barry (easy post OS) and yes to the Spring Break ride..even if it’s just 3 to 4 days…long hours on the bike add up and make you stronger, and the Spring is a great time to do it! I hope the training is going well!!
~ Coach P
Training is going very well! I'll post some updates in the "Qualify for Boston" thread soon. I'm pretty much hitting pace targets for a 3hr8min marathon, with some hills...maybe a bit faster, maybe a bit slower.
Ugh. It will be tough to ride inside when the weather is still ok for riding outside. And it will be hard to monitor progress without power. But I could try to watch cadence (if I get my old CatEye working again) and notice what gear I'm in. That was one very rough measure of progress I used to notice indoors. Obviously, it is pretty large scale. Depending on finances, I MAY be able to hunt for a power meter on Cyber Monday or something. But then I would probably need a new bike computer (a lot more $$$) unless my Suunto Ambit 2 GPS watch can record the power data. I have some big dental surgery bills that I need to check on and a couple other things to check on financially, so we'll see. I did cancel my $60 a month hot yoga membership (starting in October). It was a 5 pass per month membership. I think the regular hot yoga is really good for me and the location of the studio is super convenient, but I'm going to try practicing at home 4-5 times a month with a DVD (or maybe the EN outseason core exercises), and see if I can get similar benefits.
Regarding Strava hunting: With the BQ focus right now, I'm cutting weight & not biking much at all (except for some commuting), so I probably won't be fit/strong enough to really be a contender for local strava segments until after a solid OutSeason. So I could always have the Strava segments be carrots waiting in the post-outseason spring.
One important typo for the "Postal Swim Goal." I typed "1 mile," but the race is really a 1 hour time trial in the pool. So it ends up being over 2 miles race distance. Is that too long of a swim race to focus on given my 70.3 race focus only requiring a 1.2 mile swim?
I'm cutting weight pretty effectively and body fat is dropping (more slowly than weight). I'm below 180 lbs this morning for only the 2nd time I've ever recorded (I'm 6'2.5''). That is incredibly empowering and exciting! EN resources like discussions w/ teammates & a podcast from Coach Rich really gave me the inspiration, motivation (and suggested phone app) to do it. I really think this has been critical in me hitting my long run target paces.
I am looking forward to your update!
I am currently finishing some spreadsheet summaries in google sheets. I will share them when they are finished. (I've been pretty slammed, so I haven't had a chance to post in the Aspire to BQ forum yet, but should soon.)
I could do a lot of (or all of) our discussion here in the forum if that works better for you.
Also, just to include here an update in my training we discussed in the RDP Group me:
I totally hit the wall on Saturday 9/23/17 (last "long run" of my build, technically already start of the taper: 15 miles instead of 18 or 20). I had a couple weeks that stretched me too thin w/ some mild & some acute sleep deprivation, some more work stress, and the cumulative fatigue of 4 weeks of hard running. So you told me to take Sunday and Monday off. I cut the Saturday 15 miler to 10.8. I honestly had to push, really, really hard to get that far with some breaks (granted it was 90-95 deg F, and I was running in uncovered areas for a fair bit). Monday's run was a little speed work that I skipped completely.
Thanks!
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/23576/aspire-to-bq-in-2018#latest
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d1qytIktcqToE-eCxJCdLanBLyTVXA_jwEoBZbZON2k/edit#gid=0
I should've messaged you to confirm it sooner, but I figured the Calendly confirmation was enough.
Now I tried the "Free 15' Call every 3 months" under the side bar "additional help" menu, under "Members."
Does the ""Schedule a FREE 15-minute call with Coach Patrick (unlimited to new Trials), all other Members are Limited to One Call Every Three Months." link not work for members? If that doesn't work, it may be helpful to indicate that more clearly somehow.
Did the 10/19 appointment I set up today work?
Is there anyway we can chat before the race on 10/8?
Regardless, I look forward to hearing your feedback in the forum.
I noticed another member posted this today in the general feed, which is very relevant to my questions:
“The Boston Marathon entry cutoff got even harder this year! To get in for 2018 you had to be at least 3:23 below your age group's qualifying time.”
Thanks!
The next time we have a call, if I don’t call you within five minutes you’re welcome to call and text me to see what’s up.
As others have mentioned, there are plenty of constraints on the course that is Chicago simply due to the crowds and of course the potential for weather. You’ve done a ton of great training and good focus on your body composition as well. Now you have to be able to go out and run that race day according to how we recommend you pay Saturday. This is no small task in a marathon given how easy the early miles are, and how hard the late Miles can be.
The biggest mistake you could make us going out to aggressively. If you’re going to move from the 307 to a 303, that will simply happen starting after mile six with some good pacing. If you get aggressive at the start and try and make something magical happen you will likely run into trouble. Another words, you just can’t force it. When your race and that this let’s fall where they may. At some point in time you’re going to have to decide how hard you want to work in maintaining the piece that you are running relative to the finish. Despite all the spreadsheets and data, the decision is a very binary one and only you know what happens during that conversation.
I am also trying to not abuse the phone appointments, but I can understand that it adds a ton to your work load. It is a really nice feature of Team EN. Since I'm a first year, I imagine I have more questions than I would after I've been on the team for a season. But if you have to go to a pay-per-call model at some point, I understand.
Thanks for the advice. Yeah, I guess I was getting caught up a bit in thinking that I'll really be able to have the exact control over running 7:03 pace or 7:08 pace. But I then remembered what my 25k was like in May. I'm going to shoot for a goal pace, and I'll have to see what my legs can do. Its not like I'll be able to carefully adjust mile-by-mile from 7:03 pace to 7:08 pace.
But I would love to chat about target heart rate and just hear your thoughts.
Yeah, sorry about all the poop talk. I have active bowels and eat a lot of fruits & veggies (I eat a lot less while training & racing) & managing them for endurance racing is one of my big challenges.
I got some good feedback from Al & Peter this weekend on the thread. I am going to reply soon and think about their suggestions.
Regarding Monday, I could chat between 9-9:30 am, 10:30-10:50 am, 11:35-11:55 am or anytime after ~4:40 pm. I'll text you tomorrow morning. Thanks!