What has helped me with neck strain is to lead with the crown of my head versus the chin. This position still gives you a descent field of view while staying in aero. And as per Al, use sunglasses with no top frame or a helmet visor.
I need a critique on my bike fit in prep for IMCDA. I feel like I could get slightly more aggressive and flatten out slightly. I'm uploading a picture from Rev3 Anderson in October (2:40 bike split) and I look like I could get lower and have less curve or arch in my back. Hopefully the pic loads correctly so ya'll can pick me apart!
Steven, hard to say given that pic isn't directly from the side nor are you at the bottom of your pedal stroke. It looks from the pic that you're a little stretched out which could be remedied by moving either you or your saddle more forward (probably your saddle). Does that Shiv have an integrated or standard stem? Getting lower could be as easy as removing spacers or could be as complicated as getting a whole new integrated stem. Lowering your front end would also require the saddle (or you) to come more forward as well.
Good point, probably not the best picture since i'm in the middle of a peddle stroke. The stem isn't integrated so I know I have a set of spacers that can come out to get me a bit lower. I'm switching seats this weekend to an Adamo for comfort reasons so I'll see how more forward feels. I'll try to get some better pics in the mean time.
So, I'm a newby and couldn't figure out how to put a picture here. My files are too large it says. I have never used my google drive before, but I wlll try it here with a link. This is my trainer set up. I have an adamo seat that is as far forward as it can go. I used this set up last year for my IM Wisconsin and felt good in aero. I don't have the capacity to stay in aero nearly as long as I was able to at the end of last year. I'm also 10 lbs heavier. Overall comfortable, I wonder if my seat is too high. I also had my wife make a little video of me. It's actually quite large as well. Sorry I don't smile. I'm just not a very nice guy.
I'm open to any feedback. I'm actually enjoying my indoor training this year and have been seeing a lot more power output this year than last, following the OS. I don't really have a big budget this year, with a 25th anniversary Europe trip coming up.
My main races are a Half in June, and IM Louisville in October.
Your seat is a bit high. Try lowering it about 1/2". You're also high and stretched out. Try lowering the front end by removing spacers and getting a shorter stem or flipping the stem. Removing spacers (lowering) will stretch you out more so that's why you'd need a shorter stem... but you need a shorter stem regardless. The shorter stem will move you to a less stretched out position either at the current bar height or at a lower one. You said the saddle is as far forward as possible but are you as far forward as possible? Doesn't look like it.
Stephan ... Please review the comments about the value of a good bike fit a little earlier in this thread. You've got 1,000s of $ of cycling equipment in those photos. To get the most out of it, spend a couple hundred on a professional bike fit. ( Not to disparage Bob' s comments at all, he's probably spot on in his assessment, but the devil is in the details.)
I do agree with Al because my advice is a little more than just lowering your saddle. He needs to lower the saddle, then get a shorter stem, then lower the front end, and then learn to sit more forward on the saddle. That's hard to do for someone not super familiar with fit and bike wrenching. Pay someone $200 to do that for you. :-)
Stephan, just like Al and Bob already said, I would encourage setting up an appointment to get a bike fit done. Your elbow pads are too far forward, putting you in the outstretched position, making it much harder to stay aero and requiring extra energy to support yourself of your elbows. This also puts your scapulae in a too much protracted position, fatiguing your scapular stabilizers and stressing your neck too much.
Doug, you have IM CDA in 2-3 weeks, right? Here's my critique: Don't mess with your bike position until AFTER the race. Don;t even think about it. You know the rule: don;t change anything just before a race. Here;s the cautionary tale from Ironman lore: in 2001, Dave Scott (6 time Kona champ) decided to "come back" and see what he could do at age 47 on the Big Island. So he trained for months, got in great shape, and was ready to try and break 9 hours or something. BUT ... [to quote Wikipedia] "2001 was his last foray into the Ironman. The 47-year-old Scott had back problems due to some last minute bike changes, which forced him out of the race.[2]"
Coach R and Al: I posted this because I have had some L hamstring issues, nothing terrible, but I wondered if seat length was off (which was originally set by a local tribike outfit). Also, I am slow. Want to be faster. Aero seems to matter to peeps, so I figure I have 3 weeks to try a more aggressive position without committing to it before CDA (and I have a RR to test too). Will post update later.
Picture below is after: Seat post down 1inch. 3 spacers moved above stem, stem flipped, seat down about 8 degrees.
Your posture does look better with those changes - shoulder and elbow angles are more open, knees a touch more flexed in full extension. When riding, think of keeping your head tucked below, or at least even with your shoulders. Head is the leading edge into the wind, and the lower it goes (even without a flat back), the less air you have to move.
I'm going to the Retül factory in two days to get a fit tune-up myself... 7 weeks before IM LP. So I understand the desire.
The reason aero "matters', of course, is pure physics - 80% of the work done on the flats @ 20 mph is simply to move air out of the way. And as speed increases arithmetically, the work required to move air increases geometrically.
Doug you look faster now! the important thing now is how to get used to that position, specially the pain in the back and neck, as it's a really new setup...
In '05 I was training for IMCDA. My final RR (or some other ride very close to my RR) I discovered that my right hamstring had tightened up significantly during a high volume cycling block in May such that I was good for a normal ~70mi ride in the bars but at 80+ I was in a nightmare. I dropped my saddle and went on to have a good race. If I had (1) not validated my position via a 112mi, locked in the bars ride and (2) hesitated to drop my saddle, I would have had a very, very bad day.
So:
Lowering your saddle is rarely not a bad thing for triathletes, as it frees up your hamstring allowing you (generally) to be more comfortable in the aero position.
When you drop the front end of your bike, as you have, you should also side the saddle forward so you can retain your original hip angle. My personal preference is to slam the saddle all the way forward and then I ride on the nose of the saddle. This allows me to be pretty low in the front while still retaining a good/feels good to me hip angle.
I then adjust the saddle height to be comfortable for me within ^these^ primary measurements.
Like Al said, you can gain a lot of speed by keeping your head low, not looking up so much like you are in the picture above. I think about basically collapsing my shoulders into my chest and my head collapses/lowers with my shoulders.
This is a race photo from my sprint tri on Saturday. I'm looking for constructive criticism. I have Wildflower in a few weeks and IMCA in July. I plan to have hydration between aero bars. Not sure if I want to go with straw or just bottle. I'm pretty flexible and have strong upper body strength. Looking to upgrade helmet as well.
Brian - given this is a static picture, things look pretty good. Getting the best fit is a dynamic process, viewed from front and sides while pedaling. The best fitters have that video capability, and may even attach sensors to key spots on your body to aid in computer analysis of movements/position.
Despite what someone said on the dashboard, I think your head is in a good spot, fairly low with the ears at your shoulders. I complain about people riding along with their chins at or above their shoulder level.
As to between the aerobars, yes a bottle there is more aero than anywhere else. There is a thread somewhere else in the forums which covers bike set up for best aero results, maybe someone can provide a link as I can't quickly find it.
I'm starting to make adjustments to my position and would appreciate any advice from the group.
Here is my original position. This was set up by an experienced local PT and bike fitter, who has a reputation for being very thorough but also pretty conservative with his positions. The only discomfort I've had is adapting my neck muscles initially.
Here is the position after my first set of adjustments -- dropping 15 mm of spacers, pads and bars forward another 16 mm, seat forward 23 mm. If I did the math right my hip angle should be about the same.
That still looks to me like it could be a lot more aero. I could drop the front by 2 cm more by moving spacers, and the seat can come forward another 1 cm. To move the front end forward any more I'll probably need a longer stem.
I'm 14 weeks out from IMC so aiming to settle on a position in the next 4-6 weeks.
Thanks, Robin. Yeah, no issues so far with this position on rides up to 4 hours, so after this weekend's race I think I'll try something more aggressive. Probably bringing the seat forward another cm (as far as it will go), slamming the stem, and going from an 80 to 110 mm stem.
thanks to the EN support team for getting this thread fixed & postable to again!
so my bike fit review. I did go to Todd at TT bike fit & the evolution of how i got there is presented below. I am curious what the various smart people in the haus view the fit. I had been thinking of jumping on the Ventum deal and have been seduced by the P5X which I saw a presentation of in my LBS yesterday by the Cervelo rep, but with my oldest heading off to college next year, i don't see either of these bikes as anything but a nice new toy(which is not a bad thing), but given that I have a P5, it's hard to argue for a move, so it is time to focus on optimizing the P5. Aside from fit, I will be investing in a ceramic Speed BB & OPS, and a wheelcover. I am also interested in any other setup comments/ suggestions people have.
In the gear department, I have an 808 rear, both a 404 and 808 front(depending on wind conditions), running the conti Limited edition TTs with Latex tubes, have my storage & hydration to a minimum. In these pics there is a spare tube w 2 tire irons wedged under the seat, another spare tube, 2 CO2s, crack pipe & 2 allen keys in the hard sided bento. Xlab torpedo in a cage btb mount & one bottle behind the seat. I do run with a 3rd cage on the downtube in training so i can stop less for refills.
The bike is a 2013 Cervelo P5 w 10 Spd Di2, w the hacked shift buttons on the bullhorns . For those of you who don't know the bike, the front end has a few adjustability points. First there are .5 & 1 CM spacers below the bar, these raise the entire base & aero bar assembly. On the base bar, you can mount the aerobars with a low V spacer or High V mount, the latter of which is 3.5 CM above the low V (approximate & I am checkin on that exact #, it may be 4.5)
My original set up shown in this first pic is with the high V and 3.5CM in spacers below the base bars as shown in IMMT 2014
after seeing how upright i was set up, I took out the high V and inserted the low V, which i then ran in IMAZ 2014(self fitting attempt here)
In both of the photos above, I am running the original 172.5 crank.
I trained with this setup for IMLP 2015, but herniated a disc 3 days before the race. I do wonder if the lower set up contributed to my back issues. My Chiro who is a huge cyclist says no. In my recovery from the disc issue, we went back to the high V and determined that my back was most comfy riding the Tri bike than a road bike, in the higher position(for recovery purposes). I have now become a core training junky to prevent any further issues in this department
in my quest to get it right, I visited Todd at TTbike fit for a day at his shop in Rhode Island. Using his test mule, we came up with an optimal position and tried different crank lengths as well. It was great to immediately feel the difference between a 172.5 & a 165 crank as well as what was comfortable & what wasn't.
Todd dialed everything into my P5, which had us using the High V mount. He felt that the optimal position would have me remove 2 spacers from below the bars and get me down another 2 CM. Effectively, half way between the high & low V mounts. The P5 is an incredibly complicated machine in this issue as you need to cut the hydraulic brake lines to get the spacers out, and depending how many you remove, possibly cut the steering tube. Todd was not equipped to deal with the brake lines. So I rode the bike with this setup at LP.
After my visit with Todd, I also procured a new crankset at 167.5 (couldn't find a 165 available that fit the bike and my budget)
After LP, I brought the bike to my LBS and he performed the surgery to the brake cables, pulling one spacer out and was able to get it back together without cutting the steerer tube. The only question remains is if I should go another spacer down. Looking for critique on current positioning. The two pics below show me at IMWI (top pic with the 1CM lower setup) and IMLP (bottom pic - note also about 6-8lbs leaner) The IMWI is current setup. Only possible change is that I do feel a little "reachy" and with the bars coming down, i will probably trim 1/4" - 3/8" from the aerobars to pull the in a drop. Something Todd & I discussed.
scott, just a thought on what you already may be attempting - working on getting the head down with turtling and relaxing at the shoulders. and practicing looking up the road with eyes and not the head.
@Robin - open to all suggestions. -trying to figure out if I should be getting a more aggressive aero helmet? EG, would that cause me to ride with head in different position? Hadn't thought about positioning vs "is the helmet really that much more aero?" -explain turtling better if you would
@SD: check Dave Tallo race plan (bike section) where he explains his "turtle head position" +pix and movie here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l8zU4N8tFg think of it like getting your head/chin down (and out of the wind), instead of up to look at the road
The way I monitor whether my head is low enough, relative to my shoulders: when I'm too high, I can hear the wind whistling by my ears. Tucked down with my ears at shoulder level, the wind sound and feel goes dramatically down.
Helmet: for an IM at least, IMO, a tail-less aero helmet (eg Giro Air Attack, Kask, etc) avoids the penalty you get when you drop your chin and the tail hits the wind. Also, no tail penalty when moving rotating head to get the kinks out. Long tail may be good for a shorter race, like Oly, but for the 5-6+ hour TT, it may be best to just go for a sleek look all round. Lets me rest my neck muscles by tucking my chin way down on flat, straight sections with no one in my way.
Re the helmet, I'm thinking about the Gyro Aerohead MIPS as my next upgrade. The newer models have a truncated tail but leave some protrusion for drag reduction and are generally much faster than rounder helmets like the Air Attack or Bambino.
Comments
@Jeff
What has helped me with neck strain is to lead with the crown of my head versus the chin. This position still gives you a descent field of view while staying in aero. And as per Al, use sunglasses with no top frame or a helmet visor.
So, I'm a newby and couldn't figure out how to put a picture here. My files are too large it says. I have never used my google drive before, but I wlll try it here with a link. This is my trainer set up. I have an adamo seat that is as far forward as it can go. I used this set up last year for my IM Wisconsin and felt good in aero. I don't have the capacity to stay in aero nearly as long as I was able to at the end of last year. I'm also 10 lbs heavier. Overall comfortable, I wonder if my seat is too high. I also had my wife make a little video of me. It's actually quite large as well. Sorry I don't smile. I'm just not a very nice guy.
I'm open to any feedback. I'm actually enjoying my indoor training this year and have been seeing a lot more power output this year than last, following the OS. I don't really have a big budget this year, with a 25th anniversary Europe trip coming up.
My main races are a Half in June, and IM Louisville in October.
HOpe these links work.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7xoTiK9GOCKT2dzVkd2c0hzVFU/view?usp=sharing This is a picture.
another picture: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7xoTiK9GOCKU0xQTzVoMjM0dUE/view?usp=sharing
a video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7xoTiK9GOCKemdGSXJXQ0pGeEk/view?usp=sharing
Stephan, just like Al and Bob already said, I would encourage setting up an appointment to get a bike fit done. Your elbow pads are too far forward, putting you in the outstretched position, making it much harder to stay aero and requiring extra energy to support yourself of your elbows. This also puts your scapulae in a too much protracted position, fatiguing your scapular stabilizers and stressing your neck too much.
Per J Withrow's advice, please consider attacking my aero position. This has been hacked several times and not professionally done for over 1 year:
Doug, you have IM CDA in 2-3 weeks, right? Here's my critique: Don't mess with your bike position until AFTER the race. Don;t even think about it. You know the rule: don;t change anything just before a race. Here;s the cautionary tale from Ironman lore: in 2001, Dave Scott (6 time Kona champ) decided to "come back" and see what he could do at age 47 on the Big Island. So he trained for months, got in great shape, and was ready to try and break 9 hours or something. BUT ... [to quote Wikipedia] "2001 was his last foray into the Ironman. The 47-year-old Scott had back problems due to some last minute bike changes, which forced him out of the race.[2]"
Coach R and Al: I posted this because I have had some L hamstring issues, nothing terrible, but I wondered if seat length was off (which was originally set by a local tribike outfit). Also, I am slow. Want to be faster. Aero seems to matter to peeps, so I figure I have 3 weeks to try a more aggressive position without committing to it before CDA (and I have a RR to test too). Will post update later.
Picture below is after: Seat post down 1inch. 3 spacers moved above stem, stem flipped, seat down about 8 degrees.
Your posture does look better with those changes - shoulder and elbow angles are more open, knees a touch more flexed in full extension. When riding, think of keeping your head tucked below, or at least even with your shoulders. Head is the leading edge into the wind, and the lower it goes (even without a flat back), the less air you have to move.
I'm going to the Retül factory in two days to get a fit tune-up myself... 7 weeks before IM LP. So I understand the desire.
The reason aero "matters', of course, is pure physics - 80% of the work done on the flats @ 20 mph is simply to move air out of the way. And as speed increases arithmetically, the work required to move air increases geometrically.
Doug you look faster now! the important thing now is how to get used to that position, specially the pain in the back and neck, as it's a really new setup...
Looking sharp!
Another story:
In '05 I was training for IMCDA. My final RR (or some other ride very close to my RR) I discovered that my right hamstring had tightened up significantly during a high volume cycling block in May such that I was good for a normal ~70mi ride in the bars but at 80+ I was in a nightmare. I dropped my saddle and went on to have a good race. If I had (1) not validated my position via a 112mi, locked in the bars ride and (2) hesitated to drop my saddle, I would have had a very, very bad day.
So:
Like Al said, you can gain a lot of speed by keeping your head low, not looking up so much like you are in the picture above. I think about basically collapsing my shoulders into my chest and my head collapses/lowers with my shoulders.
This is a race photo from my sprint tri on Saturday. I'm looking for constructive criticism. I have Wildflower in a few weeks and IMCA in July. I plan to have hydration between aero bars. Not sure if I want to go with straw or just bottle. I'm pretty flexible and have strong upper body strength. Looking to upgrade helmet as well.
Brian - given this is a static picture, things look pretty good. Getting the best fit is a dynamic process, viewed from front and sides while pedaling. The best fitters have that video capability, and may even attach sensors to key spots on your body to aid in computer analysis of movements/position.
Despite what someone said on the dashboard, I think your head is in a good spot, fairly low with the ears at your shoulders. I complain about people riding along with their chins at or above their shoulder level.
As to between the aerobars, yes a bottle there is more aero than anywhere else. There is a thread somewhere else in the forums which covers bike set up for best aero results, maybe someone can provide a link as I can't quickly find it.
I'm starting to make adjustments to my position and would appreciate any advice from the group.
Here is my original position. This was set up by an experienced local PT and bike fitter, who has a reputation for being very thorough but also pretty conservative with his positions. The only discomfort I've had is adapting my neck muscles initially.
Here is the position after my first set of adjustments -- dropping 15 mm of spacers, pads and bars forward another 16 mm, seat forward 23 mm. If I did the math right my hip angle should be about the same.
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXz5p8wMHxI
That still looks to me like it could be a lot more aero. I could drop the front by 2 cm more by moving spacers, and the seat can come forward another 1 cm. To move the front end forward any more I'll probably need a longer stem.
I'm 14 weeks out from IMC so aiming to settle on a position in the next 4-6 weeks.
Thanks, Robin. Yeah, no issues so far with this position on rides up to 4 hours, so after this weekend's race I think I'll try something more aggressive. Probably bringing the seat forward another cm (as far as it will go), slamming the stem, and going from an 80 to 110 mm stem.
Test test
so my bike fit review. I did go to Todd at TT bike fit & the evolution of how i got there is presented below. I am curious what the various smart people in the haus view the fit. I had been thinking of jumping on the Ventum deal and have been seduced by the P5X which I saw a presentation of in my LBS yesterday by the Cervelo rep, but with my oldest heading off to college next year
, i don't see either of these bikes as anything but a nice new toy(which is not a bad thing), but given that I have a P5, it's hard to argue for a move, so it is time to focus on optimizing the P5. Aside from fit, I will be investing in a ceramic Speed BB & OPS, and a wheelcover. I am also interested in any other setup comments/ suggestions people have.
In the gear department, I have an 808 rear, both a 404 and 808 front(depending on wind conditions), running the conti Limited edition TTs with Latex tubes, have my storage & hydration to a minimum. In these pics there is a spare tube w 2 tire irons wedged under the seat, another spare tube, 2 CO2s, crack pipe & 2 allen keys in the hard sided bento. Xlab torpedo in a cage btb mount & one bottle behind the seat. I do run with a 3rd cage on the downtube in training so i can stop less for refills.
The bike is a 2013 Cervelo P5 w 10 Spd Di2, w the hacked shift buttons on the bullhorns . For those of you who don't know the bike, the front end has a few adjustability points. First there are .5 & 1 CM spacers below the bar, these raise the entire base & aero bar assembly. On the base bar, you can mount the aerobars with a low V spacer or High V mount, the latter of which is 3.5 CM above the low V (approximate & I am checkin on that exact #, it may be 4.5)
My original set up shown in this first pic is with the high V and 3.5CM in spacers below the base bars as shown in IMMT 2014
after seeing how upright i was set up, I took out the high V and inserted the low V, which i then ran in IMAZ 2014(self fitting attempt here)
In both of the photos above, I am running the original 172.5 crank.
I trained with this setup for IMLP 2015, but herniated a disc 3 days before the race. I do wonder if the lower set up contributed to my back issues. My Chiro who is a huge cyclist says no. In my recovery from the disc issue, we went back to the high V and determined that my back was most comfy riding the Tri bike than a road bike, in the higher position(for recovery purposes). I have now become a core training junky to prevent any further issues in this department
in my quest to get it right, I visited Todd at TTbike fit for a day at his shop in Rhode Island. Using his test mule, we came up with an optimal position and tried different crank lengths as well. It was great to immediately feel the difference between a 172.5 & a 165 crank as well as what was comfortable & what wasn't.
Todd dialed everything into my P5, which had us using the High V mount. He felt that the optimal position would have me remove 2 spacers from below the bars and get me down another 2 CM. Effectively, half way between the high & low V mounts. The P5 is an incredibly complicated machine in this issue as you need to cut the hydraulic brake lines to get the spacers out, and depending how many you remove, possibly cut the steering tube. Todd was not equipped to deal with the brake lines. So I rode the bike with this setup at LP.
After my visit with Todd, I also procured a new crankset at 167.5 (couldn't find a 165 available that fit the bike and my budget)
After LP, I brought the bike to my LBS and he performed the surgery to the brake cables, pulling one spacer out and was able to get it back together without cutting the steerer tube. The only question remains is if I should go another spacer down. Looking for critique on current positioning. The two pics below show me at IMWI (top pic with the 1CM lower setup) and IMLP (bottom pic - note also about 6-8lbs leaner) The IMWI is current setup. Only possible change is that I do feel a little "reachy" and with the bars coming down, i will probably trim 1/4" - 3/8" from the aerobars to pull the in a drop. Something Todd & I discussed.
-trying to figure out if I should be getting a more aggressive aero helmet? EG, would that cause me to ride with head in different position? Hadn't thought about positioning vs "is the helmet really that much more aero?"
-explain turtling better if you would
think of it like getting your head/chin down (and out of the wind), instead of up to look at the road
The way I monitor whether my head is low enough, relative to my shoulders: when I'm too high, I can hear the wind whistling by my ears. Tucked down with my ears at shoulder level, the wind sound and feel goes dramatically down.
Helmet: for an IM at least, IMO, a tail-less aero helmet (eg Giro Air Attack, Kask, etc) avoids the penalty you get when you drop your chin and the tail hits the wind. Also, no tail penalty when moving rotating head to get the kinks out. Long tail may be good for a shorter race, like Oly, but for the 5-6+ hour TT, it may be best to just go for a sleek look all round. Lets me rest my neck muscles by tucking my chin way down on flat, straight sections with no one in my way.
@ Scott - Dave posted a link in his Kona race report picture here of himself I believe #984 with a good front profile picture.
http://members.endurancenation.us/F...fault.aspx
@ Paul - exactly the helmet i am thinking of.