interesting - as per above, chiro is a big cyclist. Not the roadie testosterone type of guy, but conservative. Raised my position on the tri bike by roughly 2.5-3 inches (the P5 "high bar") he agreed with me that over time i have showed less issues with the tri bike than with the road bike. road bike i have had some fit issues, new saddle hasn't solved it, get very numb in groin.
he is advocating for tri bike, but stepping up volume on the trainer, to road by the weekend. agrees that next week doing multi hour spins in VA on vacation with the GF at HER speed with some rest stops will probably be a good thing. A long way away from IM form, but a good start if all holds out...
here is the logic. My pressure point is when upper body is at 180 degree angle to legs. Standing, walking, running, etc. my comfort point is at 90 degrees... thus the tri bike with a more acute angle than road bike AND more weight on my arms than on my spine, is a better option. That and frequent position changes between aero bars & bull horns.
that said, I am taking the road bike AND the tri bike on vacation...
thanks for your continued interest. I think you follow me on strava, all WKOs being posted there, anything not obvious being described in event name...
angle refers to angle of upper body(trunk) to Femur standing upright (for most people) = 180 imagine bent over at waist with legs perpendicular to ground and trunk parallel to ground = 90
Ah, got it! I (mistakenly) assumed that standing up straight would give the most relief. Keep me in the loop...I know the evaluation window is pretty small...
so... I am in a cool place you might consider taking the family, Massanutten VA, I have a timeshare and it ate up very few points to come here. Lots of activities for the kiddies. plus, the resort has a 25M indoor pool, Harrisonburg (20 minutes away) has a public outdoor 50M that I am checking out tomorrow. The really good news it that the valleys and mountains around here are robust with cycling: have made a bunch of routes up, but more ambitious than I am able. today I did a 50 miler, left early, rode up a hellacious climb to the entrance of the skyline drive and then went north to the next gap, met the GF for lunch, changed and drove down the skyline and did a quick hour or so hike..
on the biking front, the good news is that I did a 16ish mile ride at home on the roadie and that did seem to aggravate the back. So I took the tri bike here.. did 30 on day one, flat valley ride and then 20 yesterday in the heat, then todays 50 miler with 5000 climbing.... https://www.strava.com/activities/377119744
leg numbness getting better, but still have issues. Plan is to do a 112 mile valley ride as a RR on Thursday. I think the terrain is similiar to choo, so that will be telling
so... I could not resist the call of the mountains, apparently the hills around Harrisonburg are legendary, A great Grand Fondo route that I modified into a 61 mile ride, apparently doing two of the most epic climbs. (met three women at the end who gave me a ride back to town & they are coming to LP next year, small world.) https://www.strava.com/activities/379454748
Only managed one swim last week, the times the pools were available for lap swims sucked and I had an allergic reaction to something from the first swim..
sooo the big story is the back... Seems to be ok on the bike. I suspect I am getting another epidural shot, hopefully this week. Bottom line is that there is some residual inflammation that is clearly being raised by the riding. Running has been out of the question. Depending on docs thoughts, I am hoping to try a walk run program. Question (for doc) is if I can try to do Choo where I clearly can do the bike & Swim, with a modified run/walk program.
Plan from here for next 4 weeks: -swim & bike as per program, with more time put into the swim. -deep water running -if ok with doc, build run/walk program volume
Most of this post is an update, but here is a question: how much would you expect FTP to have dropped post LP. This basically means thinking about the taper week, followed by 4 weeks of nothing.
Why do Choo? thinking is that it is another notch in the belt (IM#6) towards the Legacy Lottery (which is still in place) and a good learning experience on S-B execution. Also, the possibility that a miracle happens and I can try to run, albeit at a slow pace... All of that said, I am also thinking rationally that this is more than likely not going to happen, I am just not ready to throw in the towel. Focusing on Choo helps me continue rebuilding my bike, focusing on swim and keeping an eye on Body Comp. I also have secured an entry to AZ...
SD, thanks for the update. And awesome you get to ride with your daughter!
I think your FTP will have probably dropped like 5% to 10%....but don't worry about that number being true as much as what you have seen on those long rides. Based on that longer carpetbagger ride, a 130-135 HR is your happy place, consistent with between 150 and 160 watts...
Even though you are laid up, a good bike is still the one where you slow down the least.
I hear you, biggest thing is not causing more damage...one day at a time brother!
It is clear that the muscles in my left leg are compensating for the ones that are not firing, which of course means the wrong muscles are doing the work and they are just the wrong muscles and are not equipped to do what I want them to do...
My physiatrist also thinks per my appointment yesterday that my nerve issues are actually getting worse, so I now have a surgical consult scheduled as well as a 2nd ESI (Epidural Steroid Injection)...
Will keep you posted, but I think the right thing to do here is to stand down, do as much maintenance work as I can on the bike & swim, solve the problem and rebuild for an excellent 2016...
I plan on coming up to TT bike fit this winter, so hopefully I can grab you for a lunch on the same trip..
ok... since I have really gotten my arms around this and now considering a "procedure" as defined in my thread in the off-topic forum. I do need to reset my training program. I AM able to ride, and swim, but not run. Wondering how you would structure a 7 day week. Presumably I can do plenty of trainer work (I did a nice 50 mile outside ride today). Thinking is to be on the bike 4-5x per week and in the pool 3-4x per week. Given that the shoulder is still recovering, I am going to stay away from hard short intervals and just focus on swimming 1 hr (3000 yds) 2-3x per week and 1.5hrs (4500 yds) 1x per week.
Bike - goal here is to focus on building watts, extended OS with anticipation of joining the jan OS, well maybe November and come up with an early season race for a change.
so, my question is, how would you structure the bike days? Thinking Monday - swim Tuesday - swim/bike Weds - FTP Bike Thrs swim Fri Bike Sat 1.5-2hr bike possible road bike, typical APB ride type of ride Sunday 1Hr bike
open to other ideas. don't need specific wko's but how you might structure the week? how many FTP sessions?APB? VO2? and on what days? how would you work in the swimming?
Coach: never heard from you on above.. I am now starting to settle in on the trainer with some outside rides. have Swagged my FTP to about 230/232. basically trying to follow a typical OS build, as I am not sure I can jump in and do the volumes of the bike focus plans, Though, I have to confess, I have not looked at beginner or intermediate yet, and will do that today. Goal is to do as much FTP building between now and NOV OS
Chatting with Cronk, he pointed out this plan on TR - https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/plans/110-40k-time-trial-high-volume wondering if you ever looked at the TR plans? just by my eye, this doesn't seem to have a lot of FTP work, wondering your thoughts on this vs the EN bike focus plan
Scott, sorry for not responding...I wasn't clear you wanted my input...now I am.
That said, what's the non-training strategy here? I get that you are asking me what you could do for working out, but I am unclear as to what your overall plan is....aka:
1) Just wait and see....
2) PT to get stronger + training and we'll see...
3) Fuggit my back is screwed, I am going to ride this bad boy train until it breaks and then get surgery...
Knowing that ^above^ will help me ascertain what you should do. Or at least, I should know...
In terms of a week built around swim and bike, I assume there will also be strength stuff or rehab, so that might affect your week. I like the idea of "until OS" for a few weeks....shorter blocks should be better for you. I am hesitant to put you into a full program without knowing your other limitations, but that said, I'd go something like this:
Mon - Day OFF Tues - Bike FTP Wed - Swim Thu - Bike VO2 (see 5 minute hack in wiki under Bike, but it's 110% FTP efforts) Fri - Swim Sat - Outside bike with FTP work. Sun - Easy bike outside, enjoy the fall.
thanks for asking that question... sorry I lacked clarity
here is where I am. Back is getting better. there are two issues:
1-nerve damage from the original impingement/herniation which caused me to have a numb lower leg & to not have muscles on inside of upper thigh firing. EG, top of bike pedal on left leg out of the saddle had nothing. The good news is that this has resolved itself 90%. I have almost complete feeling back in the lower leg, and the only weakness I now feel in upper leg is after working out, jut a little more sore, no issues on the bike, including out of the saddle, have actually now attacked some hills.
2-prevention of further injury. Back is still at risk and docs want me to continue PT/ rest. Rest in this case, means no running, they are afraid of the pounding. PT consists of trying to do general body strengthening at least every other day including core, back extensions, lunges, body weight squats, cable rows, cable pull downs, push ups (which i am not doing). Note Chiropractor is a big cyclist and a conservative thinker on this. He feels I am good to go on intensity, trainer or road. Is also ok with duration of 2-3 hours as tested thus far, or longer without causing harm to my back.
I seem to have done something to my shoulder (the rotator cuff one). I think it happened from pushups, so swimming on hold for a few weeks and probably longer.
what does this mean? it means I am basically stuck with only the bike for about the next four weeks. My goal is to do what I can to maximize bike fitness & cardio fitness via the bike from now until when I begin the OS. I am no longer focused on any race until IMLP 2016, maybe AmZof or Quassy along the way.
Current goal is to lift watts, focus on body comp and reintroduce running by hopefully mid-late October with a goal of being at full throttle OS run speeds by mid November. I will have to evaluate ability to do a November or January OS based on run ability. Right now, I am at full bike ability and want to utilize that in the best way possible to get to 260 watts by April. Peak wattage this year and last year was 247.
AWESOME. Thank you Scott. A PITA to type, I am sure, but really helps me understand as sometimes there's a gap between what we said last time and where you are right now.
There are two things to think of here: one is to boost FTP right now, the other is to do the work that will allow you to boost your FTP over the OS.
Or rather -- you can't boost your FTP now AND during the OS in the same way, as it will just be overload to your system. Given the OS is what it is with the FTP work in the colder weather / indoors, and the fact you are bike only right now, my bias is towards option 2…volume/strength now, then 14 week OS, then we’ll see what we come up with!
Here's what I suggest in that vein:
- Plan on riding both weekend days for sure. - Plan on mixing up your bikes -- I'd say road and MTB, assuming you have MTB. - Plan on mixing up your terrain -- variety is good, keeps you fit and sane. - Set some bigger cycling volume goal for the four weeks (for you, not what someone else did). - Plan on something cool like "biking in six states in four weeks" or "1 new route a week" to add some color. - Plan on "recovery biking" next to your GF or with GF and kids...all biking is good biking.
A basic week would have 2-3 days of midweek riding and two longer rides on the weekend. Basically a day of riding and a day off from riding to do your "homework" and keep up the requisite baseline. This early homework time will also stop you from blowing up in week 3.
During the week you can do all the harder work you want, but keep it to segments on Strava, not for time. I personally have a 30 mile loop with 5 segments that I ride at least 1x a week to push myself. So make ^that^ option for you so you can just go out and hammer those sections.
On the weekends, I would plan on a longer ride one day on your road bike…not hard in terms of gain (unless you set a vertical climbing goal) but just time in the saddle…4 to 5 hours, load up on tunes, routes, etc…this is great for your overall endurance, etc.
The other weekend day is an MTB / offroad day. Again, not super technical, just time on the bike in new places…you could do up to 3 hours on fire trail stuff or mix it up…an hour next to GF running, then your time, or some ride time with, some ride time separate.
I hope this all making sense. Basically I don’t want to put you in a plan box now as you’ll be in that box come late OCT…
Yes I have an MTB(doing leadville MTB 100 next year!) - GREAT idea
"bigger cycling goals" what do you mean by bigger volume "for me?" vs "other people?" I am thinking that if I can get 3-4 hrs during the week with another 4 hrs on the weekend. I am doing well.. what were you thinking for the "long rides" on the weekends? The "recovery" rides with daughter & GF actually have a bit of work as I normally go ahead of them, then circle back every few miles...
It is getting difficult to ride outdoors during the week due to daylight. That said, I do want to try to do more bike commuting to the office.
I was thinking of doing this on the MTB (takes more work, though I have no powermeter on it) the route is here
that I can expand on to pick up more time, lots of good segments in there. Plus I have the new 520 that will alert me to the start of the segment :-) (note that the activity link was when I did that ride with my daughter, for me it is normally under an hour) I used to use this as a weekly TT, time to get back to that!
Scott, perfect!!! I like how you can use the MTB and I like the balance of 4 hours during the week and 4 on the weekend. No need to do the rides with GF/Daughter if they are no bueno, just thought it was an easy fit.
Your commute option looks great. Just dial in those epic flashing lights (front and back) so you are super visible and can see the road....you should be pretty durable on the MTB as well.
I can't commit to a ride as I am flat out here (and leaving early for "camp" in Kona) but you have the right idea...just get out and ride baby.
The best damn protocol is whatever gets you out the door.
Shoulder- meh... the swimming block I embarked on after the herniated disc problem resulted in a pretty bad case of Tendinitis. I had an MRI to confirm that there was no re-tear of the rotator cuff and all is good. RX is to not swim at all, get some PT & once pain free, wait at least a month to start swimming, and do a proper build focused on building endurance and not speed for at least the first month.
Herniated Disc- healing well. Issue is still some residual nerve damage. This has improved. Over the summer and September when out of the saddle, left leg coming around from 2 O'clock to 10 o'clock had nothing when out of the saddle. Now I don't even think about it. On the run, I am still having some issues with my abductor and inside thigh just above the knee. RX is to start running 1 mile every other day and building from there as soon as it feels right (Similar to the biking) basically by using the nerves more, we are getting them to regenerate.
Training- right now I am closely following (but hacking) the Trainer Road 40k TT Advanced plan. I've gotten into a good groove, am now in week 6 of 8 weeks. I definitely feel some gains, but am also feeling some accumulated fatigue. My TR history here
I will have about 6 weeks after this plan ends to decompress, absorb the training and reset my head for the JOS. Plan is that if leg is good on running to do a build on the running side..I’d like to work up to about 20 - 25 miles (or more in the later weeks) if the leg can handle it. Based on what I witnessed on the bike build I am hopeful. I will mix this with some cold road rides, MTB commute rides (with new P1 Pedals) and some pure MTB rides and some trainer rides focused on both recovery spins & tempo (the only time I watch my shows is on the trainer)
I’d like to hear your thoughts, considerations, questions.
Btw, next season as of now loosely planned as follows:
May – Possible NC camp
May – TOC Camp
June 6 – Wilmington/Whiteface 100(k) MTB – to get a better LV MTB100 corral
Scott, I am having a really tough time connecting where you are with the year you have just presented me at the end. You can't run, you can't swim. You are biking but you have residual nerve damage and are really tired. This puts me in a really tough place as you are in a tough place...not much you can do right now, and it's really hard to draw a straight line to such a year -- a year that most healthy EN folks would have a tough time completing.
I like to think in incremental chunks:
1) Close out the Adv TT plan. Continue self care. 2) Recover, maybe a flexibility / strength focus 3) Start the OS, normal bike and very very small running. Continue self care. 4) Every four weeks of the OS we bump up the run a bit while maintaining the bike. Continue self care. 5) Based on the OS work (and recovery), we aim for some kind of a bike volume weekend (weather nicer) to see how that volume treats you at that time. You will also be back in the pool here.
And so on...you want to roll with something more like that version ^above^? It's not as sexy as saying Placid -- Leadville -- Wisco, but that magic has to start somewhere!!!!
hmmm. I guess this might fit under "man plans, God laughs..."
I guess my thinking is based on the optimism that I will be healthy in time to make things work... The reality is that I feel healthy now, save for one minor nerve issue that should disappear by the time I hit the OS, the important thing is that I have made all of these decisions in consultation with the docs. They all seem to think I am well on the mend. I know my ability to "bounce back" is good. When I had to stand down in 2012, everything came back very nicely from essentially a nice rest. I am basing my assumptions on run fitness, that the nerve issue will go away as quickly as it did on the bike and that bike fitness will spillover to run fitness. btw, I view Leadville as a very big bike training day... Assuming I can handle the volume, I intend on some longer "long" bikes in my LP build, not going to be "racing" an MTB for 100 miles :-)
Scott, I hear you. You can't _not_ plan...but thanks for understanding my perspective.
1) Close out the Adv TT plan. Continue self care as you wrap it up.
2) During the recovery period, begin working on your run. I suggest a frequency goal (6 x 20’, for example) and a mix of traditional running with the elliptical or even stair master. We are just looking for aerobic time here.
An example progression would be as follows. Note weeks 1-4 are a “mix” of modalities, weeks 5-6 are about doing more running than elliptical, etc.
Wk 1 - 6 x 15’ Wk 2 - 6 x 20’ Wk 3 - 6 x 25’ Wk 4 - 6 x 30’ Wk 5 - 6 x 30’ - more run sessions… Wk 6 - 6 x 30’ - all run sessions?
3) Start the OS, normal bike and maintain your 6 x 30’ run plan; continue towards all run sessions. When you are at 6 x 30’ running no issues, we can re connect to adjust goals. One option might be to bump up the run a bit every four weeks while maintaining the bike. Continue self care.
4) Based on the OS work (and recovery), we aim for some kind of a bike volume weekend (weather nicer) to see how that volume treats you at that time. You will also be back in the pool here.
This is good! thank you! I know that you know I am a bit bullheaded, this time around I am working with my Chiro, the conservative cyclist dude and most importantly heeding his advice and erring on the side of caution.
Question on above, between now and JOS start - are you looking for me to start the elliptical/ cardio fitness as an addition to the cardio fitness I am getting from 6-8 hrs/week of biking, mostly on the trainer?
Scott, I know...and honestly you have to keep pushing onwards, so I get that too. I'd be doing the same thing...
Yes, I want that aerobic time basically building up the run or as close to running as possible. I wasn't sure if you were taking a break after the TR plan...
some good news, I think. just did my first run, 1.5 miles... pace was ok, but it was a lot of work to maintain it.. but, damn it felt good to be running! now, just going to try 1.5 miles every day, see how everything feels, and then do a slow buildup from there.
As for the bike, i am now feeling the accumulated fatigue of the TR plan... that ends in another week and a half. I have good cold weather riding gear and plan to do more weekend outdoor rides and the week or two after the TR plan, bike commuting 1-3 days per week on the MTB to & from work.
the biggest thing for me, is that I roll into a testing week the week after the TR plan and do a solid FTP test, then I would like to work on doing something to maintain that fitness through the beginning of JOS. Wondering what thoughts you have on this?
I can see myself easily doing 30-60 minute recovery spin per day, every day on the drainer just to keep things moving. I think the MTB commute (9 miles with 1000' of climbing in the first 7) will be very helpful and i will have my P1 pedals in a week or two, so i will see the work and be able to get a real effort here.
any advice you have for basically the 2nd half of November & December would be great... Thinking I should do some random TR Wko's or possibly following another of their plans. Ideally i will give myself a week or so of reset after the current plan ends and then I will have a week of reset on a cruise with my kids Xmas where i hope to hit the dreadmill daily and get in some spin classes.
btw, as far as docs go, i was just reviewing this thread, in Mid sept I wrote: " Current goal is to ... reintroduce running by hopefully mid-late October with a goal of being at full throttle OS run speeds by mid November." By taking it easier & listening to my body, it is now early November & I am only really "reintroducing running" now. Guess I am getting better at listening to experts in my old age
Before we go crazy planning the post test transition based on a good test, let's see what you get.
Regardless, a two week reset would be nice. I like a daily spin (either to work or drainer), with a short run at lunch or in PM...keep it simple and stay active!!!
Finished up the TR plan and did a few runs. Tired my legs out pretty quick, but have seen really good crossover effect from Biking to running. I am assuming you have looked on strava? maybe not.
Notable is that I did a couple of back to back 6 mile runs at a 8:15ish pace and both felt good. Plan for this past week was to do 3-4 mile runs ez (9min mile) and perhaps a few recovery spins, but a low grade virus wiped me out..
After 5 days of rest i just did a 2x20(2) FTP test and had a nice 7watt bump. In actuality, I think that this is approaching or even is just about my all time high for indoor FTP(current 239), so it would be great to get another 15 watts in the JOS if possible (or more)
plan for December:
- maintain bike fitness through a combo of outdoor rides on weekends, MTBs, MTB bike commute 1-2x per week, tempo trainer rides.
- build running base via 4mile runs 3-4 days per week and 5-7 mile runs on weekends.
- xmas week on a cruise ship, plan on treadmill work ever day and some spin classes.
Scott, yes I see you on strava...those 8:15s were eye-popping for sure. In a way you are further along than I imagined...very positive. Now we just have to keep this month rolling (minimum get those runs in) and stay healthy for the start of the OS.
Scott, I want pictures man!!! So pumped you are doing this well...kudos to you for gutting it out. That said, I think your week looks solid except for the Thursday..I'd keep that ride short and sweet..like 30' of spin in Zone 0, then 5 x 1' on @ Z5 / 3' off in Z1 -- so sharp but not too hard...then manage the travel and stay loose, etc!!!
to the degree it matters, I've done the NYMary in 3:35 as a stand alone(blew up trying to run a 3:23 for a BQ when the "should" run was a 3:30 per Jack Daniels..
I suspect my Vdot is one or two points higher than the 47. I've never done great in testing, I seem to do better holding the TRP pace or faster on long runs, but not so much on Z4/Z3 with built up fatigue..
below are my three long runs on strava & Garmin for HR reference...garmin actually presents this better
Comments
he is advocating for tri bike, but stepping up volume on the trainer, to road by the weekend. agrees that next week doing multi hour spins in VA on vacation with the GF at HER speed with some rest stops will probably be a good thing. A long way away from IM form, but a good start if all holds out...
here is the logic. My pressure point is when upper body is at 180 degree angle to legs. Standing, walking, running, etc. my comfort point is at 90 degrees... thus the tri bike with a more acute angle than road bike AND more weight on my arms than on my spine, is a better option. That and frequent position changes between aero bars & bull horns.
that said, I am taking the road bike AND the tri bike on vacation...
thanks for your continued interest. I think you follow me on strava, all WKOs being posted there, anything not obvious being described in event name...
Onwards!
standing upright (for most people) = 180
imagine bent over at waist with legs perpendicular to ground and trunk parallel to ground = 90
have made a bunch of routes up, but more ambitious than I am able.
today I did a 50 miler, left early, rode up a hellacious climb to the entrance of the skyline drive and then went north to the next gap,
met the GF for lunch, changed and drove down the skyline and did a quick hour or so hike..
on the biking front, the good news is that I did a 16ish mile ride at home on the roadie and that did seem to aggravate the back. So I took the tri bike here.. did 30 on day one, flat valley ride and then 20 yesterday in the heat, then todays 50 miler with 5000 climbing.... https://www.strava.com/activities/377119744
leg numbness getting better, but still have issues. Plan is to do a 112 mile valley ride as a RR on Thursday. I think the terrain is similiar to choo, so that will be telling
I could not resist the call of the mountains, apparently the hills around Harrisonburg are legendary, A great Grand Fondo route that I modified into a 61 mile ride, apparently doing two of the most epic climbs. (met three women at the end who gave me a ride back to town & they are coming to LP next year, small world.)
https://www.strava.com/activities/379454748
Now back home
put up two rides today - an hour+ on the bike path, probably similar terrain to Choo - https://www.strava.com/activities/380896808
and then a hillier 90 min ride with my daughter, as with the GF, frequent turnarounds to check on the slower rider, but always working - https://www.strava.com/activities/381072867
Only managed one swim last week, the times the pools were available for lap swims sucked and I had an allergic reaction to something from the first swim..
sooo the big story is the back... Seems to be ok on the bike. I suspect I am getting another epidural shot, hopefully this week. Bottom line is that there is some residual inflammation that is clearly being raised by the riding. Running has been out of the question. Depending on docs thoughts, I am hoping to try a walk run program. Question (for doc) is if I can try to do Choo where I clearly can do the bike & Swim, with a modified run/walk program.
Plan from here for next 4 weeks:
-swim & bike as per program, with more time put into the swim.
-deep water running
-if ok with doc, build run/walk program volume
Most of this post is an update, but here is a question: how much would you expect FTP to have dropped post LP. This basically means thinking about the taper week, followed by 4 weeks of nothing.
Why do Choo? thinking is that it is another notch in the belt (IM#6) towards the Legacy Lottery (which is still in place) and a good learning experience on S-B execution. Also, the possibility that a miracle happens and I can try to run, albeit at a slow pace...
All of that said, I am also thinking rationally that this is more than likely not going to happen, I am just not ready to throw in the towel. Focusing on Choo helps me continue rebuilding my bike, focusing on swim and keeping an eye on Body Comp. I also have secured an entry to AZ...
Welcome your thoughts...
I think your FTP will have probably dropped like 5% to 10%....but don't worry about that number being true as much as what you have seen on those long rides. Based on that longer carpetbagger ride, a 130-135 HR is your happy place, consistent with between 150 and 160 watts...
Even though you are laid up, a good bike is still the one where you slow down the least.
I hear you, biggest thing is not causing more damage...one day at a time brother!
https://www.strava.com/activities/383855678
It is clear that the muscles in my left leg are compensating for the ones that are not firing, which of course means the wrong muscles are doing the work and they are just the wrong muscles and are not equipped to do what I want them to do...
My physiatrist also thinks per my appointment yesterday that my nerve issues are actually getting worse, so I now have a surgical consult scheduled as well as a 2nd ESI (Epidural Steroid Injection)...
Will keep you posted, but I think the right thing to do here is to stand down, do as much maintenance work as I can on the bike & swim, solve the problem and rebuild for an excellent 2016...
I plan on coming up to TT bike fit this winter, so hopefully I can grab you for a lunch on the same trip..
Thinking is to be on the bike 4-5x per week and in the pool 3-4x per week.
Given that the shoulder is still recovering, I am going to stay away from hard short intervals and just focus on swimming 1 hr (3000 yds) 2-3x per week and 1.5hrs (4500 yds) 1x per week.
Bike - goal here is to focus on building watts, extended OS with anticipation of joining the jan OS, well maybe November and come up with an early season race for a change.
so, my question is, how would you structure the bike days?
Thinking
Monday - swim
Tuesday - swim/bike
Weds - FTP Bike
Thrs swim
Fri Bike
Sat 1.5-2hr bike possible road bike, typical APB ride type of ride
Sunday 1Hr bike
open to other ideas. don't need specific wko's but how you might structure the week? how many FTP sessions?APB? VO2? and on what days? how would you work in the swimming?
Thanks P!
thanks P!!
never heard from you on above.. I am now starting to settle in on the trainer with some outside rides. have Swagged my FTP to about 230/232. basically trying to follow a typical OS build, as I am not sure I can jump in and do the volumes of the bike focus plans, Though, I have to confess, I have not looked at beginner or intermediate yet, and will do that today. Goal is to do as much FTP building between now and NOV OS
Chatting with Cronk, he pointed out this plan on TR - https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/plans/110-40k-time-trial-high-volume
wondering if you ever looked at the TR plans? just by my eye, this doesn't seem to have a lot of FTP work, wondering your thoughts on this vs the EN bike focus plan
That said, what's the non-training strategy here? I get that you are asking me what you could do for working out, but I am unclear as to what your overall plan is....aka:
1) Just wait and see....
2) PT to get stronger + training and we'll see...
3) Fuggit my back is screwed, I am going to ride this bad boy train until it breaks and then get surgery...
Knowing that ^above^ will help me ascertain what you should do. Or at least, I should know...
In terms of a week built around swim and bike, I assume there will also be strength stuff or rehab, so that might affect your week. I like the idea of "until OS" for a few weeks....shorter blocks should be better for you. I am hesitant to put you into a full program without knowing your other limitations, but that said, I'd go something like this:
Mon - Day OFF
Tues - Bike FTP
Wed - Swim
Thu - Bike VO2 (see 5 minute hack in wiki under Bike, but it's 110% FTP efforts)
Fri - Swim
Sat - Outside bike with FTP work.
Sun - Easy bike outside, enjoy the fall.
here is where I am. Back is getting better. there are two issues:
1-nerve damage from the original impingement/herniation which caused me to have a numb lower leg & to not have muscles on inside of upper thigh firing. EG, top of bike pedal on left leg out of the saddle had nothing. The good news is that this has resolved itself 90%. I have almost complete feeling back in the lower leg, and the only weakness I now feel in upper leg is after working out, jut a little more sore, no issues on the bike, including out of the saddle, have actually now attacked some hills.
2-prevention of further injury. Back is still at risk and docs want me to continue PT/ rest. Rest in this case, means no running, they are afraid of the pounding. PT consists of trying to do general body strengthening at least every other day including core, back extensions, lunges, body weight squats, cable rows, cable pull downs, push ups (which i am not doing). Note Chiropractor is a big cyclist and a conservative thinker on this. He feels I am good to go on intensity, trainer or road. Is also ok with duration of 2-3 hours as tested thus far, or longer without causing harm to my back.
I seem to have done something to my shoulder (the rotator cuff one). I think it happened from pushups, so swimming on hold for a few weeks and probably longer.
what does this mean? it means I am basically stuck with only the bike for about the next four weeks. My goal is to do what I can to maximize bike fitness & cardio fitness via the bike from now until when I begin the OS. I am no longer focused on any race until IMLP 2016, maybe AmZof or Quassy along the way.
Current goal is to lift watts, focus on body comp and reintroduce running by hopefully mid-late October with a goal of being at full throttle OS run speeds by mid November. I will have to evaluate ability to do a November or January OS based on run ability. Right now, I am at full bike ability and want to utilize that in the best way possible to get to 260 watts by April. Peak wattage this year and last year was 247.
Hope that is helpful
There are two things to think of here: one is to boost FTP right now, the other is to do the work that will allow you to boost your FTP over the OS.
Or rather -- you can't boost your FTP now AND during the OS in the same way, as it will just be overload to your system. Given the OS is what it is with the FTP work in the colder weather / indoors, and the fact you are bike only right now, my bias is towards option 2…volume/strength now, then 14 week OS, then we’ll see what we come up with!
Here's what I suggest in that vein:
- Plan on riding both weekend days for sure.
- Plan on mixing up your bikes -- I'd say road and MTB, assuming you have MTB.
- Plan on mixing up your terrain -- variety is good, keeps you fit and sane.
- Set some bigger cycling volume goal for the four weeks (for you, not what someone else did).
- Plan on something cool like "biking in six states in four weeks" or "1 new route a week" to add some color.
- Plan on "recovery biking" next to your GF or with GF and kids...all biking is good biking.
A basic week would have 2-3 days of midweek riding and two longer rides on the weekend. Basically a day of riding and a day off from riding to do your "homework" and keep up the requisite baseline. This early homework time will also stop you from blowing up in week 3.
During the week you can do all the harder work you want, but keep it to segments on Strava, not for time. I personally have a 30 mile loop with 5 segments that I ride at least 1x a week to push myself. So make ^that^ option for you so you can just go out and hammer those sections.
On the weekends, I would plan on a longer ride one day on your road bike…not hard in terms of gain (unless you set a vertical climbing goal) but just time in the saddle…4 to 5 hours, load up on tunes, routes, etc…this is great for your overall endurance, etc.
The other weekend day is an MTB / offroad day. Again, not super technical, just time on the bike in new places…you could do up to 3 hours on fire trail stuff or mix it up…an hour next to GF running, then your time, or some ride time with, some ride time separate.
I hope this all making sense. Basically I don’t want to put you in a plan box now as you’ll be in that box come late OCT…
I LIKE this plan!
some answers & questions
Yes I have an MTB(doing leadville MTB 100 next year!) - GREAT idea
"bigger cycling goals" what do you mean by bigger volume "for me?" vs "other people?" I am thinking that if I can get 3-4 hrs during the week with another 4 hrs on the weekend. I am doing well.. what were you thinking for the "long rides" on the weekends? The "recovery" rides with daughter & GF actually have a bit of work as I normally go ahead of them, then circle back every few miles...
It is getting difficult to ride outdoors during the week due to daylight. That said, I do want to try to do more bike commuting to the office.
I was thinking of doing this on the MTB (takes more work, though I have no powermeter on it) the route is here
To work - https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/735175356
way home - https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/735525419
thoughts on that 2x in a day 1-2 days per week..? I could certainly do it on the road bike as well, though it will be much faster than 50 minutes...
6 states in four weeks? wanna do a slow(for you) pre Kona ride if I come up to visit you for a day???
LOVE the hammer strava segments idea. I have a 18 mile loop https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/797316616
that I can expand on to pick up more time, lots of good segments in there. Plus I have the new 520 that will alert me to the start of the segment :-) (note that the activity link was when I did that ride with my daughter, for me it is normally under an hour) I used to use this as a weekly TT, time to get back to that!
thoughts & comments?
Your commute option looks great. Just dial in those epic flashing lights (front and back) so you are super visible and can see the road....you should be pretty durable on the MTB as well.
I can't commit to a ride as I am flat out here (and leaving early for "camp" in Kona) but you have the right idea...just get out and ride baby.
The best damn protocol is whatever gets you out the door.
Coach:
update & planning
first the update on the body:
Shoulder - meh... the swimming block I embarked on after the herniated disc problem resulted in a pretty bad case of Tendinitis. I had an MRI to confirm that there was no re-tear of the rotator cuff and all is good. RX is to not swim at all, get some PT & once pain free, wait at least a month to start swimming, and do a proper build focused on building endurance and not speed for at least the first month.
Herniated Disc - healing well. Issue is still some residual nerve damage. This has improved. Over the summer and September when out of the saddle, left leg coming around from 2 O'clock to 10 o'clock had nothing when out of the saddle. Now I don't even think about it. On the run, I am still having some issues with my abductor and inside thigh just above the knee. RX is to start running 1 mile every other day and building from there as soon as it feels right (Similar to the biking) basically by using the nerves more, we are getting them to regenerate.
Training - right now I am closely following (but hacking) the Trainer Road 40k TT Advanced plan. I've gotten into a good groove, am now in week 6 of 8 weeks. I definitely feel some gains, but am also feeling some accumulated fatigue. My TR history here
I will have about 6 weeks after this plan ends to decompress, absorb the training and reset my head for the JOS. Plan is that if leg is good on running to do a build on the running side..I’d like to work up to about 20 - 25 miles (or more in the later weeks) if the leg can handle it. Based on what I witnessed on the bike build I am hopeful. I will mix this with some cold road rides, MTB commute rides (with new P1 Pedals) and some pure MTB rides and some trainer rides focused on both recovery spins & tempo (the only time I watch my shows is on the trainer)
I’d like to hear your thoughts, considerations, questions.
Btw, next season as of now loosely planned as follows:
May – Possible NC camp
May – TOC Camp
June 6 – Wilmington/Whiteface 100(k) MTB – to get a better LV MTB100 corral
July 24 – IMLP
Aug 16 – Leadville MTB100
Sept 11 – IMWI
Oct – Hilton Head 70.3(if they make this event)
Nov 6 –NYC Marathon
I like to think in incremental chunks:
1) Close out the Adv TT plan. Continue self care.
2) Recover, maybe a flexibility / strength focus
3) Start the OS, normal bike and very very small running. Continue self care.
4) Every four weeks of the OS we bump up the run a bit while maintaining the bike. Continue self care.
5) Based on the OS work (and recovery), we aim for some kind of a bike volume weekend (weather nicer) to see how that volume treats you at that time. You will also be back in the pool here.
And so on...you want to roll with something more like that version ^above^? It's not as sexy as saying Placid -- Leadville -- Wisco, but that magic has to start somewhere!!!!
I guess my thinking is based on the optimism that I will be healthy in time to make things work... The reality is that I feel healthy now, save for one minor nerve issue that should disappear by the time I hit the OS, the important thing is that I have made all of these decisions in consultation with the docs. They all seem to think I am well on the mend.
I know my ability to "bounce back" is good. When I had to stand down in 2012, everything came back very nicely from essentially a nice rest.
I am basing my assumptions on run fitness, that the nerve issue will go away as quickly as it did on the bike and that bike fitness will spillover to run fitness.
btw, I view Leadville as a very big bike training day... Assuming I can handle the volume, I intend on some longer "long" bikes in my LP build, not going to be "racing" an MTB for 100 miles :-)
1) Close out the Adv TT plan. Continue self care as you wrap it up.
2) During the recovery period, begin working on your run. I suggest a frequency goal (6 x 20’, for example) and a mix of traditional running with the elliptical or even stair master. We are just looking for aerobic time here.
An example progression would be as follows. Note weeks 1-4 are a “mix” of modalities, weeks 5-6 are about doing more running than elliptical, etc.
Wk 1 - 6 x 15’
Wk 2 - 6 x 20’
Wk 3 - 6 x 25’
Wk 4 - 6 x 30’
Wk 5 - 6 x 30’ - more run sessions…
Wk 6 - 6 x 30’ - all run sessions?
3) Start the OS, normal bike and maintain your 6 x 30’ run plan; continue towards all run sessions. When you are at 6 x 30’ running no issues, we can re connect to adjust goals. One option might be to bump up the run a bit every four weeks while maintaining the bike. Continue self care.
4) Based on the OS work (and recovery), we aim for some kind of a bike volume weekend (weather nicer) to see how that volume treats you at that time. You will also be back in the pool here.
I know that you know I am a bit bullheaded, this time around I am working with my Chiro, the conservative cyclist dude and most importantly heeding his advice and erring on the side of caution.
Question on above, between now and JOS start - are you looking for me to start the elliptical/ cardio fitness as an addition to the cardio fitness I am getting from 6-8 hrs/week of biking, mostly on the trainer?
Yes, I want that aerobic time basically building up the run or as close to running as possible. I wasn't sure if you were taking a break after the TR plan...
Glad you get it!
some good news, I think. just did my first run, 1.5 miles... pace was ok, but it was a lot of work to maintain it.. but, damn it felt good to be running!
now, just going to try 1.5 miles every day, see how everything feels, and then do a slow buildup from there.
As for the bike, i am now feeling the accumulated fatigue of the TR plan... that ends in another week and a half. I have good cold weather riding gear and plan to do more weekend outdoor rides and the week or two after the TR plan, bike commuting 1-3 days per week on the MTB to & from work.
the biggest thing for me, is that I roll into a testing week the week after the TR plan and do a solid FTP test, then I would like to work on doing something to maintain that fitness through the beginning of JOS. Wondering what thoughts you have on this?
I can see myself easily doing 30-60 minute recovery spin per day, every day on the drainer just to keep things moving. I think the MTB commute (9 miles with 1000' of climbing in the first 7) will be very helpful and i will have my P1 pedals in a week or two, so i will see the work and be able to get a real effort here.
any advice you have for basically the 2nd half of November & December would be great... Thinking I should do some random TR Wko's or possibly following another of their plans. Ideally i will give myself a week or so of reset after the current plan ends and then I will have a week of reset on a cruise with my kids Xmas where i hope to hit the dreadmill daily and get in some spin classes.
btw, as far as docs go, i was just reviewing this thread, in Mid sept I wrote: " Current goal is to ... reintroduce running by hopefully mid-late October with a goal of being at full throttle OS run speeds by mid November." By taking it easier & listening to my body, it is now early November & I am only really "reintroducing running" now. Guess I am getting better at listening to experts in my old age
Regardless, a two week reset would be nice. I like a daily spin (either to work or drainer), with a short run at lunch or in PM...keep it simple and stay active!!!
Good luck on that test...
Finished up the TR plan and did a few runs. Tired my legs out pretty quick, but have seen really good crossover effect from Biking to running. I am assuming you have looked on strava? maybe not.
Notable is that I did a couple of back to back 6 mile runs at a 8:15ish pace and both felt good. Plan for this past week was to do 3-4 mile runs ez (9min mile) and perhaps a few recovery spins, but a low grade virus wiped me out..
After 5 days of rest i just did a 2x20(2) FTP test and had a nice 7watt bump. In actuality, I think that this is approaching or even is just about my all time high for indoor FTP(current 239), so it would be great to get another 15 watts in the JOS if possible (or more)
plan for December:
- maintain bike fitness through a combo of outdoor rides on weekends, MTBs, MTB bike commute 1-2x per week, tempo trainer rides.
- build running base via 4mile runs 3-4 days per week and 5-7 mile runs on weekends.
- xmas week on a cruise ship, plan on treadmill work ever day and some spin classes.
- continued (better) diligence on body comp
Very promising!!!!
I am doing the Austin Rattler 100MTB (62Mile) on April 9 (a week from Saturday)
trying to think about a taper for the race, here at the end of the JAN OS
Thinking something like this:Tuesday - normal RXd wkos
Wednesday - do the Long Run, but really back off on pace, EG slower than TRP(I have been doing these all at roughly 20-30"/mile faster than TRP
Thursday - do I do my VO2 work here? or perhaps load up a TR Tempo ride of 45 minutes at around 65-75%??
Again, do the run - but back off the volume
Friday is travel day, maybe an early AM swim...
planning on a one hour brick in downtown Austin after the race on Saturday (we'll see how that goes!) and an early morning Sunday run there as well.
trying to dial in my IMLP Run plan
to the degree it matters, I've done the NYMary in 3:35 as a stand alone(blew up trying to run a 3:23 for a BQ when the "should" run was a 3:30 per Jack Daniels..
overall race plan listed here - http://members.endurancenation.us/Forums/tabid/57/aft/21263/Default.aspxnote Mike Roberts comments there as well.
I suspect my Vdot is one or two points higher than the 47. I've never done great in testing, I seem to do better holding the TRP pace or faster on long runs, but not so much on Z4/Z3 with built up fatigue..
below are my three long runs on strava & Garmin for HR reference...garmin actually presents this better
https://www.strava.com/activities/633072728
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1245218438
https://www.strava.com/activities/623431712
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1232556962
https://www.strava.com/activities/618224569
https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/1225538211
thanks!
as an FYI, ran a 4:16 in IMMT 2014 after getting a huge chafe issue on both legs in the groin. Fully believed that cost me 18 - 20 mins on that run.