from now through X-mas what EN running plan would you have me follow?
My plan from now until Xmas is:
+ do a significant run block including a 30 minute EZ run on "rest" days.
+ Supplement with at least 2x per week unstructured CX, road or MTB rides with my hammerhead friends.
+ add in some ez 30 minute drainer recovery spins on run days
+ 2x per week strengthening programs
+ 2-3x per week swims as 2 Masters swims and one possible additional swim of 2500 yards of various drills
PR 70.3 - since travel arrangements must be made, I think i should be deciding on this sooner than later. I think I am going to punt given other things on the calendar and the distraction this would be.
other issue - Quassy HIM vs Al Camp. Right now I am signed up for Quassy 70.3. (again travel issues on Al camp are somewhat paramount)
+ I live less than an hour a way
+ I can pre-ride the course starting in about 2 weeks.
+ Issue is I am planning on doing Al camp which starts that weekend.
+ Plan A - do quassy HIM (good fitness test rolling up to placid as well as execution practice) and then fly out to Denver late that night.. (Road bike will be packed & ready to go.)
That is an excellent question. It seems like you've taken a fall where we could do a run focus and filled it with swimming, cycling, fun cycling, recovery running in recovery cycling. Not to mention some strength. Quite frankly I'm surprised you have time to actually work. :-) I appreciate what you're trying to achieve with your 2017, but you're going to have to do some prioritizing. I firmly believe in the run durability program, which has you running 5 to 6 times a week.
On top of that running you can add a second session a day as your life permits. For example, you could run 30 minutes the morning and then biking our an evening with your friends.Or you could run 30 minutes in the morning and then swim. Or you can swim, and then run later at lunch. But there's always a run.
If you do it daily run and add in your extracurricular activities, you will easily exceed 14 training sessions a week, which I feel is excessive for this time of year.
If you don't want to give up what you're doing, then I suggest four-week focus box. Four weeks where you do all the regular running and all the swimming you want… And maybe a bike or two. Then four weeks where you do all the running and biking an you want… And fit in the swimming when you can. But doing all of it now isn't a good idea.
In terms of next year, a lazy idea of you doing classy and getting on a plane. You're not going miss that much of Al's camp, Plus as a bonus badass points for racing. It's more important you get the gut check on your relative fitness first. Your performance at Quassy will help us determine any final changes we want to make into Placid.
This is great advice, as always Lately, I wonder the same thing about my work
as for sessions -
Swim - these are ridiculously low load sessions, while it is "masters" the focus is on drills, drills, drills, side glide, slow swim, slow swim w fins, etc... If I do nothing extra before class it is roughly 1500 yds, 2x per week. I am hoping to show up early, do a few 100s to turn it into 2000-2250 per session, 2x per week.
Bike - will be lucky if i get 2x per week on that, very rarely will I get to 3.
Run - haven't looked at the durability plan, but if i can run 1x per day, 7 days a week, this will add up to 11 sessions per week across SBR, again, not sure how much the swims really count given the low intensity of those sessions.
Like the Quassy plan :-) will book accordingly.
any thoughts on Puerto Rico 70.3?
and don't forget, when you come to visit Mrs Ps family, i am expecting a run session in Rockefellah w P!
Thanks man! I think we are on to something here...and good call on the swim, not a ton of actual "work" there (never easy to tell) so you should be okay. And the way your plan shakes out here as you write it sounds strangely reasonable! Note if the stars align and you can get in a bit more riding in a week, etc., go for it and check in with me here to square things with your following week.
IMPR703 is hard to reconcile. It will be a blast, but you won't really be in race shape...would be a fun way to recharge the winter batteries and we can make it happen (just cross fingers the ski season ends early!).
Notes from our call today Run - continue building fitness via increased volume, next step on the ladder is 35 mpw Bike - your thoughts on building 5 hr power? big doses of fitness coming from BRC, Al Camp, high volume mini camp week july 4 WE & WE of Berkshire camp create bigger riding opportunities by doing an hour or so pre-ride before my bi-weekly group rides work in APB sessions of 15/5 right away to start the longer duration build Swim - keep working with coach as volume builds
Great to talk as always. I went to update your consult sheet with these edits....
1. Yes to 35 mpw (really starting next week as you rebound and survive HoH)....these 35mpw are critical to get you to 40s in a few months...so stick with it!
2. Short term solution for 5hr power is ABP time. This is Sundays (your new 4th ride). In fact, at four rides, I'd prefer the following:
Tuesday HARD
Thursday HARD
Saturday AEROBIC time...Zone2, some standing. Can be MTP on fire trails...like 3 hours here, with a brick.
Sunday ABP for 2 to 2.5 hours. Warm up, then it's 15' @ ABP, 5' easy spin, repeat. Consider joining us on Zwift!
3. With all those long rides you have planned, I don't think you need to do a lot of long rides in training for LP until you recover from Al's Camp...call it end of June...I would "hack" your rides to more ABP on the weekends...The schedule has our original version but if you add them up, you'd get your normal long rides in the plan + 4 @ BRC, +6 @ VAIL, +BERK, etc...so that's already a ton. Thoughts on this?
4. Swim is just about consistency right now. Do you have a VASA or access to one...just a thought as I play with it.
3. yes, think I've got some big doses of riding coming, just have to make sure I get the ones i need in mid-late june & July, per your comment yesterday, 1 week on long, 1 week on medium... 4. step away from whatever the "it" is that you are playing with I have cords, not sure I invest in a Vasa, I literally live 1.5 miles and 2 traffic lights from my pool. Planning on getting in some "junk yards" 1-2x per week of 1000-1500 yards of long pull sets(500s), focus on stroke and ez volume.
when you update the consult sheet, it just hit me at lunch w Brad M that we need to re-jigger the planned weeks now that I am not doing Quassy HIM...
@Scott Dinhofer - I think we're on the same page with the bike volume and the swimming. I'm not normally a fan of "junk miles" in the pool. Or rather, I think there are far more valuable closer to your race. Like those last two weeks are a great time to put in 15 to 20,000 yards. Because the bike and run is dropping. For now if your technique is coming around -- a lot of swimming is just building up swim specific strength which can be achieved with cords. It might be worthwhile firing up the swim cords video on the site and trying it for two weeks just to see if it affects your swimming.
I am 99% sure I updated the chart for you after we talked, but you can check it out and let me know.
Coach P - From the Sheet - you wrote this for the IM prep phase -
Run In Season (5 to 6 runs / wk): - Follow Basic Run Plan Mon to Sat. - Additional Sunday Brick run between 8 to 10 miles @ TRP pace.(you might need to shorten ABP ride). - Thursday Long run target is 8:30 pace (start at 9:00s & decrease, increasing time at 8:30s per week).
Modifications: - Happy to have you at TRP most of these runs depending on your fatigue, but will still want a negative split (TRP to Zone 2 / MP) when possible, even if just 1 mile of a strong finish.
SD->ok, with that in mind, here's what I'd like to do - -Long Run Thursday, would prefer to do many of these as 1 run only, not split runs. Sometimes its hard from a life perspective to do two runs. thoughts? -Sunday APB / Long Brick - thinking that APB goes to 1.5-2hrs with the 8-10mi brick on the back end? thoughts?
as a note, most of my long runs are on the bike path by my house, my area is on the center of a long slight hill, from north or south, coming home is a 1-2 mile series of 2-4% hills... thinking if I hold pace, that is essentially a GAP adjusted negative split, right? often though the shorter stride/higher turnover on the hills, results in a slightly faster actually pace...
Your plan is similar to what I put the beginner level plan folks on... A "twofer" long run week. The key here is that you can't really overachieve on these runs, otherwise you'll blow up after two weeks...so keep them strong and steady, just not flashy.
I am not worried about pace really for the longer runs, moreso the HR for the pacing..we want to see it build all run, left to right.
To be clear, your pacing should be pretty "set" by now. Instead of here you can save the pace for the interval run!
Ha! Agreed on touchdown emoji! I will take 60 to 90' main set @ ABP (not including warm up). So week 1 could be 15' warm up, 60' at ABP (short breaks optional), then transition and run. Next week could be 65.
Whatever time you lose on the bike is made up for by:
(1) you running more; and (2) you running off the bike.
P - hope your doing awesome and wrapping your head around the new baby that EN's becoming in the Post R departure world. Looking forward to seeing great things! You've got this!
now onto my micro question.. withrow sent me an email which I am sending you separately after LP last year. One of the suggestions he made is this -
JW said -> "Double
your number of weekend bike mileage from this yr. Yes, I said
that… If you can’t bang out back-to-back 5+ hour rides almost
every weekend in the meat of your IM training, you are not doing
enough… With at least a short run after every one. I think I
did thirteen 100+ miles in the 8 or 9 weeks in the meat of the IM
training.
...You are “fast” enough
to run a 3:45 IM marathon. But you have to set up the conditions for that
to be possible… Which means a ton of biking, and smart run
workouts."
so, my Q is this, I've recovered from Al camp.. This weekend I have no kids, Next weekend I have no kids, the following weekend I am doing my Berkshire Bash with Brad Marcus (86/112/50 mile rides planned for THr/Fri/Sat, sunday big swim/ run day) (this is 2 weeks prior to LP, after this I go straight to plan to execute a proper taper with lots of swimming)
If you were me trying to get to the best place possible for a KQ attempt, would you suggest I listen to our conservative JW here and load up this coming & the next weekend with a 5 hr ride on Sunday after doing a 5-6 hr ride on Saturday? I guess there are three options I am asking about 1-double up on big rides for the 3 remaining weekends I have 2-keep doing as planned with the Berky Bash 2 weeks prior to LP 3-Load up this weekend, do 1 long ride next weekend, then roll into the Berky Bash.. Lastly, I guess that the thing I am concerned about is my 5 hr power
As a note, where I am... I am assuming you've reviewed my stuff from time to time. Swim - punching the walls Bike - Lifetime high FTP, doing essentially a 2x20 FTP test every Wednesday. Looking around 268-273 and will refine. Body comp isn't going to get where we wanted (142) but I am betting I get to 146 for race day which will be 4.05 w/kg on race day. Run - doing well, hitting mid 40s per week, trying to get to high 40s for next three weeks. pretty much one speed wko on Tuesdays (2x1mi@Z4=6:50)
my current long rides (longer than 5 hrs) look like this 3/25 - Hell of Hunterdon - 80 4/27 - BRC 81 4/28 - Brc Mt Mitchell 5/27 - 110 "the Route" a 112 mile, 8000+ climbing route i have 6/3 - 6/8 - Al Camp, 75, 42, 84, 93, 111, 35 the 84 was 2x over Independence pass, 6+ hrs of mostly climbing at altitude!
we need to have an execution discussion at some point in the next few weeks. Like me coming to RI and taking to the Lobster place behind Todd's building for lunch... that kind of discussion!
@Scott Dinhofer - Sorry for the delay...had to digest all of this!!! IIRC you sent me that Withrow email last year as well, but I remember the gist. My coach-brain says two things here:
1. It's not what you can do, it's what you can absorb. 2. It's Withrow, which means that guy did EVERYTHING to recover, fuel and self-care...better than any elite.
Those two points ^above^ are what define my guidance moving forward. You have already been training, done IMPR 70.3®, Blue Ridge and Al Camp...tons of great work in your body. And despite your best of intentions, I think only Tony Stark could recover better than Withrow!
So, I like Option Three:
Load up this weekend with miles and food. Nothing spectacular here in terms of power, just great steady riding and keep the HR up at the end both days!
Next weekend is One Ride. Consider this your RR. Really want good steady riding here, but with RPP intervals. So one hour to warm up, then 20' on at 155-160 ish, and 10' back at 145. Repeat.
BerkyBash Time...again, not so much the watts as really steady all day long...looking for a good run at the end of it all. '
With your FTP numbers, you SHOULD be riding at 185W, not 149. 270*.7 = 189. So I am not sure what the delta is unless that's a new bounce and you aren't adapted to the miles. If you really believe in that number, then your RPP intervals from "Weekend 2" should be in the 180-185 zone. Only one way to find out if it will work..and that's next weekend.
With all of _that_ happening, you don't need to go higher than the 40s for this week or week three....next week with the one ride...that one can be higher run volume. IOW, alternate the bigger bike and bigger run weeks to make it more palatable. Good luck!
as an update - did a 104 miler w 8000' climbing on a new route with a friend who is doing IMLP for his first.
here are my NPs for 15' intervals for the 6 hrs... entire ride @ NP of 181 (VI of 1.10) 158 203 173 201 188 180 189 191 195 194 180 178 167 183 164 183 187 178 185 182 164 179 190 164 164 164 137 note the last few included some tough downhill segments with no pedalling.. (descending bear, etc) https://www.strava.com/activities/1052084363/overview (think you have access to the TP file (why doesn't FN strava use NP instead of AP?))
Sunday, I did a pre-ride run of 5.5 miles. I was time constrained on the back end, but then went out and did 3:22 hrs. @ 184NP (VI of 1.05) https://www.strava.com/activities/1053792926 these were the NP by Lap - 169 193 185 190 187 194 188 192 184 180 172 171 180 173
hopefully this helps us figure out 5 hr power :-) added edit - i think the Strava 5 hr power # is low simply because I haven't logged enough consistent 5hr +rides... one of them at Al Camp was broken into two 56 mile garmin files...
Strava shows a bump from 148 to 153 on 5 hr power from this weekend's work. FTP remains at 272!
doing my "normal" week, and planning on a 6 hr RR with hopefully better than 1.10 VI on Saturday!
not sure if there is a question here, so much as giving info and any fine tuning you might recommend for the RR? thinking the target 5 hr power # here is probably in the low - mid 180 range. which is only .68 of FTP (270ish)
as a note, last year i rode the 1st lap at 185 and the 2nd at 169, that was a conscious decision to depower for lap two.
@Scott Dinhofer - always great to see the data like that. Overall I think it was a very well executed ride. I suggest that you do more of a normal race rehearsal this weekend but I feel warm up. I would like in 185 for the first half and then try 195 in the second.
In general I want you to negative split it, and let's see what that harder effort brings as a true cost at the end.
I agree the five hour power is low because of how your sample size has been structured, so this is the best way to figure it out!
one other silly question (I don't use this thread enough) for logistical reasons i need to do the RR on Sunday this coming weekend what would you recommend on Saturday? I am thinking of a swim 4000-5000 yards (in addition to Friday's swim) 4x15 APB intervals (actually a helmet testing session), but I could adjust these.... followed by an EZ 5ish mile brick...
thoughts? don't want to take away from Sunday's needed strength...
Additionally, for the Berky Bash,
Day 1 plan is for a 85ish mile ride to get from home up to Mass, climbing roughly 4500-5500'. (brick run of up to 7.5 miles)
Day 2, plan is for a 100-112 mile ride, the question is, what is better for training 2 weeks out from LP? a ride that has 8000+ climbing including Greylock? Or as epic as Greylock is, are we better doing a route with something more like 5000ish' of climbing on that day 2? (Brick run of up to 7.5 miles) (may do as a pre-bike run)
Day 3 will be a 50ish mile ride with 3-4k' climbing Brick run
@Scott Dinhofer - there is no such thing as a silly question!
*Is there anyway that you can do that ADP session on Friday? It will be nice to have a little gap before your race rehearsal. I understand there may be some work related constraints around your time, but perhaps we could test the helmet another time? In my mind I am thinking that you do the ABP on Friday + a short swim, then a big swim Saturday of about 5K with maybe a short 30 minute run and then Sunday race rehearsal. Let me know.
* what you do on day two is really a function of two things. I think doing Greylock is fine, but the conditions have to be just right. First, you absolutely must ride it out I am in pacing… No overachieving here with the song through work or chasing straw the segments. This will just be a nice study long day with some pretty darn good TSS.
First, just how "hard" is day one? Since that's the new ride, it might prove to be more difficult than what you see on your computer. If that's the case, then I would plan on the later version on day two.
Second, do you have an even easier version of day three? I know there's a bike path of there that has minimal gain, that might be a nice way to add miles without crushing yourself after days one and two. Here is the one that I found:
* The only other at it I would have is perhaps shortening the run on Greylock day depending how epic it is. If you do a 7 1/2 hour day on the bike… Do you really need to also run 45 minutes? I think with everything else you have planned and two weeks out, a break from running on this day would be advised.
Friday - no problem! the day before July 4 weekend is a waste! can't reach anyone.. will adjust per above.
Day 1 - of Berky Bash - I did this ride last year, but made it 112 by throwing in extra distance. Brad & I are likely doing 80ish miles, this route, we each have about 12 miles to get to the beginning. of the route as we are coming from different locales, mine is pretty flatish TT segments. - https://ridewithgps.com/routes/22510499
Day 2 - I believe based on your advice we are going to NOT do Greylock and opt for something southwards from his house where we can get good TT related roads. Will check out your suggested route. Also, i would only do the entire ride at IM pacing, issue is the descent off greylock where you are just holding on and trying to invoke JW style descending skills!
Day 3 - what would your goal be for this? Brad definitely knows roads that will keep us flatter and focused... He uses them for FTP work when he's up there..
@Scott Dinhofer - OK, I'm glad that you have some level of familiarity with that day one route. Makes me feel more comfortable with it.
And your day two sounds good...don't worry about holding watts downhill, it's not worth it.
The goals for day three are to refine your ability to stay in goal watts despite fatigue – both muscular and mental. That is a discipline, a skill that separates The best from the rest. I would prefer a flat course, or one with long steady grades of 1 to 2% that you could really sit on good Watts.
check on all of above next question - format for my week giving the adjustment what do you want me to see doing on the mon - weds segment given that the week shapes up like this? Monday [Plan calls for swim] thinking swim + 40 min run Tuesday [plan calls for long run, 2hrs] - thinking to just do this (possibly longer?) Wednesday - [plan calls for Swim + FTP bike] - thinking to do Swim + 5-7 mile run Thursday - B 87 / Run 4-7 brick Friday - Bike 112, possible early AM 4 mile run b4 bike Saturday - Bike 50, Run 5-7 brick, possible 2500 Swim Sunday - run 7.5 - 15; swim 4000+ OWS
ok - bike report from Sunday, it was HOT... Did i say Hot?? no, it was really HOT!!
left Vassar college at 0850 ahead of schedule. Mapped out a good 95 mile route, including some climbs, some bike paths, some familiar roads, some unfamiliar roads. Rode to Canaan CT, stopped at a great bake shop for a snack, lemonade, returned, stopped a freind's house to say hi for 10' & pick up a gatorade.. btw, had 6 top 10 efforts on these roads including a DH KOM!
way out, 185, no problem, way back, even 185 was hard to hold. I did this ride wearing my new giro Aerohead helmet. Damn, that thing is HOT... Did i mention that it was Hot out??? Just want to be clear on that. I think I was on hydration & nutrition well. Probably a bottle less hydration than I'd have liked on the way out, but I caught up by having the lemonade & snack inside an ACd bake shop...
headwinds on the way back...
here's the NPs from the 15' laps for 5 1/2 hrs.. per your newly posted video, HR is the 2nd row
1st & last had a bit of admin getting in/ out
of Poughkeepsie.
The 155 (6th) was a misroute over a pretty bad
chip seal/dirt/gravel road.. wasn’t willing to push the downhills here and risk
a wipe out #notworthit
Was wearing giro aerohead.. very hot, sweat seemed lots more
than normal. Didn’t really have extra water to douse head that I would have in
a race situation.. Also makes me question value of this helmet over the Scott
Cadence+ aero road helmet… (kienle wears that
one)
More importantly If I had to guess, the analysis may be in
last year’s IMLP ride. If i had to guess based on THIS ride, 185 is my number.. that said... I have a big week coming up of putting the last hay in the barn...
FWIW - Strava 5 hr power also creeped up from 153 - 155
5000 yard OWS done this AM.. Question on preferred swim. Have been doing a fare bit of OWS as my pool has been closed. Can swim at other club location, not as convenient. have a group doing OWS. Pool re-opens tomorrow. would you prefer me in the pool or doing OWS for other swims.. Sunday swim will be 5000 OWS
@Scott Dinhofer - sounds like it might've been hot out! As tough as those sessions are, they are huge for preparing you for Race day. Remember that last year in Lake Placid it was super hot, now you know.
Based on this ride I would set you at 180, so that you could be a champ over that last hour. Early lap power doesn't matter as much as late lap power. Remember, everyone in your age group is overachieving early so that was good Watts don't get you as much as they would later. This tells me that if it's going to be that hot on race day, you might want to dial Watts back another 5w less. . That type of "decoupling" is typically a result of poor nutrition. So if it will be that hot, we drop the effort a little bit we increase your first our bottles, and we make sure we use that other helmet.
Basically, we need to take every single step possible to make sure that you are 100% ready to run to your potential. So I'm great I thought, just some lessons learned.
As for the swimming, I vote as much open water as you can stand. It will make you that much better on race day, even though you can't measure your performance as much as you would like.
Some additional data... I have my thoughts on the "number," wondering what your thoughts are after digesting this. and if it changes your view on the target NP for LP...
did the week as structured above underlines below are links to strava files on runs & bikes Thursday Brad & I biked up to his Berkshire house, 90 miles, lots of really good false flat TT terrain, followed it up with a 4.5 mile run at 7:47 w hills! Friday - waited out the rain, Brad swam, I ran 7.2 (7:51/mi) then we biked around 30 miles Saturday - 100 mile strong ride, lots of good TT terrain, stayed away from the temptation to ride the hills... Comment on both bikes, on most long rides, for the last hour, I can't wait for it to be over, on both of these rides, I was enjoying the whole ride, afterwards, Brad was expressing his soreness, I felt more tired than sore. btw, all three days were pretty humid... not horribly hot, but definite humidity Sunday - opened up with a 11 mile run at 7:58s and then did a 4400 yd OWS
Data from 3 Bikes top line is Lap NP, most laps 15', some as long as 45' 2nd line is AvgHR- Lap
Additionally the 2016 LP bike data where I consciously slowed down on lap 2. Note that FTP was 262 (10 watts lower than today) Loop 1 = 2:49 @185NP 133HR Loop 2= 2:58 @163NP 136HR
@Scott Dinhofer - OK, officially back at work this morning! As I know you are too… Good luck with that inbox.
I think perhaps I'm the only person as equally as excited about your weekend as you are. That is a great block of training and the fact that you're able to back up with that ride on Saturday is phenomenal.
Maybe that rainstorm on Friday was actually the best thing that could've happened. :-) Really excited to see the numbers you've laid out in the corresponding heart rates. I think you can definitely go with the higher number if you want - 190NP Target would probably give you 185 at the end of the day… That's usually how the numbers roll out.
It will all come down for the day. If it's going to be a wicked hot run, then we have to be conservative on the bike even though you can go stronger. If it looks like optimal conditions for Racing then perhaps we can be a little more aggressive.
Either way, we need to keep you under control until the top of the descent with some specific type of power power numbers so you don't overdo it once you get to the bottom you can get to work.
As you know, it's all about so me right now and getting in some consistent aerobic activity. Nothing flashy anymore time to get you set up all dialed in and everything you need purchased for the trip. You and I can talk in more detail on Thursday.
Just nudging up the race selection issue as Choo is on its last 10 regular price entries before I have to hit a foundation slot... Can read my rationale for each race on this thread (maybe you can post your thoughts for others to see?) My Race Report with Data is here
@Scott Dinhofer - The input you've received on your race election is incredible! I can't imagine adding much more. I honestly think that Louisville is the best choice for you. Well you might not think of it now, your ability to run well in a second are made of the year will be reduced. This will likely make the hills of Chattanooga just a little too hard.
and while you're running in Placid was so strong, I would like to see improvement over the second half as your heart rate really drop there. Whether that's nutrition or what, I think there's room to improve and LOU will let you do that. Remember, you need to have a great race and order a cake you. Don't put the end goal in front of the process itself… You're right process will yield the results you want.
I support you no matter which race you choose, this is just my advice. I think being ready to race in Chattanooga requires a full 12 week block with rest… I put them on the same level as Placid in terms of difficulty. For the run.
Comments
from now through X-mas what EN running plan would you have me follow?
My plan from now until Xmas is:
+ do a significant run block including a 30 minute EZ run on "rest" days.
+ Supplement with at least 2x per week unstructured CX, road or MTB rides with my hammerhead friends.
+ add in some ez 30 minute drainer recovery spins on run days
+ 2x per week strengthening programs
+ 2-3x per week swims as 2 Masters swims and one possible additional swim of 2500 yards of various drills
PR 70.3 - since travel arrangements must be made, I think i should be deciding on this sooner than later. I think I am going to punt given other things on the calendar and the distraction this would be.
other issue - Quassy HIM vs Al Camp. Right now I am signed up for Quassy 70.3. (again travel issues on Al camp are somewhat paramount)
+ I live less than an hour a way
+ I can pre-ride the course starting in about 2 weeks.
+ Issue is I am planning on doing Al camp which starts that weekend.
+ Plan A - do quassy HIM (good fitness test rolling up to placid as well as execution practice) and then fly out to Denver late that night.. (Road bike will be packed & ready to go.)
+ Plan B - skip Quassy and just do Al camp
On top of that running you can add a second session a day as your life permits. For example, you could run 30 minutes the morning and then biking our an evening with your friends.Or you could run 30 minutes in the morning and then swim. Or you can swim, and then run later at lunch. But there's always a run.
If you do it daily run and add in your extracurricular activities, you will easily exceed 14 training sessions a week, which I feel is excessive for this time of year.
If you don't want to give up what you're doing, then I suggest four-week focus box. Four weeks where you do all the regular running and all the swimming you want… And maybe a bike or two. Then four weeks where you do all the running and biking an you want… And fit in the swimming when you can. But doing all of it now isn't a good idea.
In terms of next year, a lazy idea of you doing classy and getting on a plane. You're not going miss that much of Al's camp, Plus as a bonus badass points for racing. It's more important you get the gut check on your relative fitness first. Your performance at Quassy will help us determine any final changes we want to make into Placid.
I hope that helps!
~ Coach P
This is great advice, as always
Lately, I wonder the same thing about my work
as for sessions -
Swim - these are ridiculously low load sessions, while it is "masters" the focus is on drills, drills, drills, side glide, slow swim, slow swim w fins, etc... If I do nothing extra before class it is roughly 1500 yds, 2x per week. I am hoping to show up early, do a few 100s to turn it into 2000-2250 per session, 2x per week.
Bike - will be lucky if i get 2x per week on that, very rarely will I get to 3.
Run - haven't looked at the durability plan, but if i can run 1x per day, 7 days a week, this will add up to 11 sessions per week across SBR, again, not sure how much the swims really count given the low intensity of those sessions.
Like the Quassy plan :-) will book accordingly.
any thoughts on Puerto Rico 70.3?
and don't forget, when you come to visit Mrs Ps family, i am expecting a run session in Rockefellah w P!
Thanks man! I think we are on to something here...and good call on the swim, not a ton of actual "work" there (never easy to tell) so you should be okay. And the way your plan shakes out here as you write it sounds strangely reasonable! Note if the stars align and you can get in a bit more riding in a week, etc., go for it and check in with me here to square things with your following week.
IMPR703 is hard to reconcile. It will be a blast, but you won't really be in race shape...would be a fun way to recharge the winter batteries and we can make it happen (just cross fingers the ski season ends early!).
~ Coach P
Run - continue building fitness via increased volume, next step on the ladder is 35 mpw
Bike - your thoughts on building 5 hr power?
big doses of fitness coming from BRC, Al Camp, high volume mini camp week july 4 WE & WE of Berkshire camp
create bigger riding opportunities by doing an hour or so pre-ride before my bi-weekly group rides
work in APB sessions of 15/5 right away to start the longer duration build
Swim - keep working with coach as volume builds
looking for your more detailed thoughts on above.
Great to talk as always. I went to update your consult sheet with these edits....
1. Yes to 35 mpw (really starting next week as you rebound and survive HoH)....these 35mpw are critical to get you to 40s in a few months...so stick with it!
2. Short term solution for 5hr power is ABP time. This is Sundays (your new 4th ride). In fact, at four rides, I'd prefer the following:
- Tuesday HARD
- Thursday HARD
- Saturday AEROBIC time...Zone2, some standing. Can be MTP on fire trails...like 3 hours here, with a brick.
- Sunday ABP for 2 to 2.5 hours. Warm up, then it's 15' @ ABP, 5' easy spin, repeat. Consider joining us on Zwift!
3. With all those long rides you have planned, I don't think you need to do a lot of long rides in training for LP until you recover from Al's Camp...call it end of June...I would "hack" your rides to more ABP on the weekends...The schedule has our original version but if you add them up, you'd get your normal long rides in the plan + 4 @ BRC, +6 @ VAIL, +BERK, etc...so that's already a ton. Thoughts on this?4. Swim is just about consistency right now. Do you have a VASA or access to one...just a thought as I play with it.
~ Coach P
4. step away from whatever the "it" is that you are playing with
when you update the consult sheet, it just hit me at lunch w Brad M that we need to re-jigger the planned weeks now that I am not doing Quassy HIM...
I am 99% sure I updated the chart for you after we talked, but you can check it out and let me know.
From the Sheet - you wrote this for the IM prep phase -
- Follow Basic Run Plan Mon to Sat.
- Additional Sunday Brick run between 8 to 10 miles @ TRP pace.(you might need to shorten ABP ride).
- Thursday Long run target is 8:30 pace (start at 9:00s & decrease, increasing time at 8:30s per week).
Modifications:
- Happy to have you at TRP most of these runs depending on your fatigue, but will still want a negative split (TRP to Zone 2 / MP) when possible, even if just 1 mile of a strong finish.
SD->ok, with that in mind, here's what I'd like to do -
-Long Run Thursday, would prefer to do many of these as 1 run only, not split runs. Sometimes its hard from a life perspective to do two runs. thoughts?
-Sunday APB / Long Brick - thinking that APB goes to 1.5-2hrs with the 8-10mi brick on the back end? thoughts?
as a note, most of my long runs are on the bike path by my house, my area is on the center of a long slight hill, from north or south, coming home is a 1-2 mile series of 2-4% hills... thinking if I hold pace, that is essentially a GAP adjusted negative split, right? often though the shorter stride/higher turnover on the hills, results in a slightly faster actually pace...
Your plan is similar to what I put the beginner level plan folks on... A "twofer" long run week. The key here is that you can't really overachieve on these runs, otherwise you'll blow up after two weeks...so keep them strong and steady, just not flashy.
I am not worried about pace really for the longer runs, moreso the HR for the pacing..we want to see it build all run, left to right.
To be clear, your pacing should be pretty "set" by now. Instead of here you can save the pace for the interval run!
Make sense?
~ Coach P
only thing you didn't answer was the Q about the APB ride... I am looking for 2 numbers
in this context on Sundays when mixed in with a 10-12 mile run? (1:25-1:42 running time)
need the "touchdown" emoji for beating the weekend!
Whatever time you lose on the bike is made up for by:
(1) you running more; and
(2) you running off the bike.
Good luck!
~ Coach P
hope your doing awesome and wrapping your head around the new baby that EN's becoming in the Post R departure world. Looking forward to seeing great things! You've got this!
now onto my micro question..
withrow sent me an email which I am sending you separately after LP last year. One of the suggestions he made is this -
JW said -> "Double your number of weekend bike mileage from this yr. Yes, I said that… If you can’t bang out back-to-back 5+ hour rides almost every weekend in the meat of your IM training, you are not doing enough… With at least a short run after every one. I think I did thirteen 100+ miles in the 8 or 9 weeks in the meat of the IM training.
...You are “fast” enough to run a 3:45 IM marathon. But you have to set up the conditions for that to be possible… Which means a ton of biking, and smart run workouts."
so, my Q is this, I've recovered from Al camp.. This weekend I have no kids, Next weekend I have no kids, the following weekend I am doing my Berkshire Bash with Brad Marcus (86/112/50 mile rides planned for THr/Fri/Sat, sunday big swim/ run day) (this is 2 weeks prior to LP, after this I go straight to plan to execute a proper taper with lots of swimming)
If you were me trying to get to the best place possible for a KQ attempt, would you suggest I listen to our conservative JW here and load up this coming & the next weekend with a 5 hr ride on Sunday after doing a 5-6 hr ride on Saturday?
I guess there are three options I am asking about
1-double up on big rides for the 3 remaining weekends I have
2-keep doing as planned with the Berky Bash 2 weeks prior to LP
3-Load up this weekend, do 1 long ride next weekend, then roll into the Berky Bash..
Lastly, I guess that the thing I am concerned about is my 5 hr power
As a note, where I am... I am assuming you've reviewed my stuff from time to time.
Swim - punching the walls
Bike - Lifetime high FTP, doing essentially a 2x20 FTP test every Wednesday. Looking around 268-273 and will refine. Body comp isn't going to get where we wanted (142) but I am betting I get to 146 for race day which will be 4.05 w/kg on race day.
Run - doing well, hitting mid 40s per week, trying to get to high 40s for next three weeks. pretty much one speed wko on Tuesdays (2x1mi@Z4=6:50)
my current long rides (longer than 5 hrs) look like this
3/25 - Hell of Hunterdon - 80
4/27 - BRC 81
4/28 - Brc Mt Mitchell
5/27 - 110 "the Route" a 112 mile, 8000+ climbing route i have
6/3 - 6/8 - Al Camp, 75, 42, 84, 93, 111, 35
the 84 was 2x over Independence pass, 6+ hrs of mostly climbing at altitude!
we need to have an execution discussion at some point in the next few weeks. Like me coming to RI and taking to the Lobster place behind Todd's building for lunch... that kind of discussion!
1. It's not what you can do, it's what you can absorb.
2. It's Withrow, which means that guy did EVERYTHING to recover, fuel and self-care...better than any elite.
Those two points ^above^ are what define my guidance moving forward. You have already been training, done IMPR 70.3®, Blue Ridge and Al Camp...tons of great work in your body. And despite your best of intentions, I think only Tony Stark could recover better than Withrow!
So, I like Option Three:
- Load up this weekend with miles and food. Nothing spectacular here in terms of power, just great steady riding and keep the HR up at the end both days!
- Next weekend is One Ride. Consider this your RR. Really want good steady riding here, but with RPP intervals. So one hour to warm up, then 20' on at 155-160 ish, and 10' back at 145. Repeat.
- BerkyBash Time...again, not so much the watts as really steady all day long...looking for a good run at the end of it all. '
With your FTP numbers, you SHOULD be riding at 185W, not 149. 270*.7 = 189. So I am not sure what the delta is unless that's a new bounce and you aren't adapted to the miles. If you really believe in that number, then your RPP intervals from "Weekend 2" should be in the 180-185 zone. Only one way to find out if it will work..and that's next weekend.With all of _that_ happening, you don't need to go higher than the 40s for this week or week three....next week with the one ride...that one can be higher run volume. IOW, alternate the bigger bike and bigger run weeks to make it more palatable. Good luck!
~ Coach P
Ps - clam shack execution talk sounds good, keep me posted!
did a 104 miler w 8000' climbing on a new route with a friend who is doing IMLP for his first.
here are my NPs for 15' intervals for the 6 hrs... entire ride @ NP of 181 (VI of 1.10)
158 203 173 201 188 180 189 191 195 194 180 178 167 183 164 183 187 178 185 182 164 179 190 164 164 164 137
note the last few included some tough downhill segments with no pedalling.. (descending bear, etc) https://www.strava.com/activities/1052084363/overview (think you have access to the TP file (why doesn't FN strava use NP instead of AP?))
Sunday, I did a pre-ride run of 5.5 miles.
I was time constrained on the back end, but then went out and did 3:22 hrs. @ 184NP (VI of 1.05)
https://www.strava.com/activities/1053792926
these were the NP by Lap - 169 193 185 190 187 194 188 192 184 180 172 171 180 173
hopefully this helps us figure out 5 hr power :-) added edit - i think the Strava 5 hr power # is low simply because I haven't logged enough consistent 5hr +rides... one of them at Al Camp was broken into two 56 mile garmin files...
Strava shows a bump from 148 to 153 on 5 hr power from this weekend's work. FTP remains at 272!
doing my "normal" week, and planning on a 6 hr RR with hopefully better than 1.10 VI on Saturday!
not sure if there is a question here, so much as giving info and any fine tuning you might recommend for the RR? thinking the target 5 hr power # here is probably in the low - mid 180 range. which is only .68 of FTP (270ish)
as a note, last year i rode the 1st lap at 185 and the 2nd at 169, that was a conscious decision to depower for lap two.
for logistical reasons i need to do the RR on Sunday this coming weekend
what would you recommend on Saturday? I am thinking of a swim 4000-5000 yards (in addition to Friday's swim)
4x15 APB intervals (actually a helmet testing session), but I could adjust these....
followed by an EZ 5ish mile brick...
thoughts? don't want to take away from Sunday's needed strength...
Additionally, for the Berky Bash,
- Day 1 plan is for a 85ish mile ride to get from home up to Mass, climbing roughly 4500-5500'. (brick run of up to 7.5 miles)
- Day 2, plan is for a 100-112 mile ride, the question is, what is better for training 2 weeks out from LP? a ride that has 8000+ climbing including Greylock? Or as epic as Greylock is, are we better doing a route with something more like 5000ish' of climbing on that day 2? (Brick run of up to 7.5 miles) (may do as a pre-bike run)
- Day 3 will be a 50ish mile ride with 3-4k' climbing Brick run
- Day 4 - big swim & longish run. (12 mi)
aside from Day 2, any tweaks you'd recommend?* what you do on day two is really a function of two things. I think doing Greylock is fine, but the conditions have to be just right. First, you absolutely must ride it out I am in pacing… No overachieving here with the song through work or chasing straw the segments. This will just be a nice study long day with some pretty darn good TSS.
First, just how "hard" is day one? Since that's the new ride, it might prove to be more difficult than what you see on your computer. If that's the case, then I would plan on the later version on day two.
Second, do you have an even easier version of day three? I know there's a bike path of there that has minimal gain, that might be a nice way to add miles without crushing yourself after days one and two. Here is the one that I found:
* The only other at it I would have is perhaps shortening the run on Greylock day depending how epic it is. If you do a 7 1/2 hour day on the bike… Do you really need to also run 45 minutes? I think with everything else you have planned and two weeks out, a break from running on this day would be advised.
will adjust per above.
Day 1 - of Berky Bash - I did this ride last year, but made it 112 by throwing in extra distance. Brad & I are likely doing 80ish miles, this route, we each have about 12 miles to get to the beginning. of the route as we are coming from different locales, mine is pretty flatish TT segments. - https://ridewithgps.com/routes/22510499
Day 2 - I believe based on your advice we are going to NOT do Greylock and opt for something southwards from his house where we can get good TT related roads. Will check out your suggested route. Also, i would only do the entire ride at IM pacing, issue is the descent off greylock where you are just holding on and trying to invoke JW style descending skills!
Day 3 - what would your goal be for this? Brad definitely knows roads that will keep us flatter and focused... He uses them for FTP work when he's up there..
next question - format for my week giving the adjustment
what do you want me to see doing on the mon - weds segment given that the week shapes up like this?
Monday [Plan calls for swim] thinking swim + 40 min run
Tuesday [plan calls for long run, 2hrs] - thinking to just do this (possibly longer?)
Wednesday - [plan calls for Swim + FTP bike] - thinking to do Swim + 5-7 mile run
Thursday - B 87 / Run 4-7 brick
Friday - Bike 112, possible early AM 4 mile run b4 bike
Saturday - Bike 50, Run 5-7 brick, possible 2500 Swim
Sunday - run 7.5 - 15; swim 4000+ OWS
Tue - 2 hours is enough. Make the last 30' on hills to challenge yourself...Any longer is dangerous.
Wed - same as Monday. Plenty to do in the weekend!!!!
left Vassar college at 0850 ahead of schedule. Mapped out a good 95 mile route, including some climbs, some bike paths, some familiar roads, some unfamiliar roads. Rode to Canaan CT, stopped at a great bake shop for a snack, lemonade, returned, stopped a freind's house to say hi for 10' & pick up a gatorade.. btw, had 6 top 10 efforts on these roads including a DH KOM!
way out, 185, no problem, way back, even 185 was hard to hold. I did this ride wearing my new giro Aerohead helmet. Damn, that thing is HOT... Did i mention that it was Hot out??? Just want to be clear on that.
I think I was on hydration & nutrition well. Probably a bottle less hydration than I'd have liked on the way out, but I caught up by having the lemonade & snack inside an ACd bake shop...
headwinds on the way back...
here's the NPs from the 15' laps for 5 1/2 hrs.. per your newly posted video, HR is the 2nd row
166 188 185 182 182 155 180 185 176 188 171 179 181 188 156 170 179 172 164 163 159 149
110 115 113 110 110 99 109 113 115 120 114 123 129 136 120 124 130 129 126 126 124 120
1st & last had a bit of admin getting in/ out of Poughkeepsie.
The 155 (6th) was a misroute over a pretty bad chip seal/dirt/gravel road.. wasn’t willing to push the downhills here and risk a wipe out #notworthit
Was wearing giro aerohead.. very hot, sweat seemed lots more than normal. Didn’t really have extra water to douse head that I would have in a race situation.. Also makes me question value of this helmet over the Scott Cadence+ aero road helmet… (kienle wears that one)
More importantly If I had to guess, the analysis may be in last year’s IMLP ride. If i had to guess based on THIS ride, 185 is my number.. that said... I have a big week coming up of putting the last hay in the barn...
FWIW - Strava 5 hr power also creeped up from 153 - 155
5000 yard OWS done this AM.. Question on preferred swim. Have been doing a fare bit of OWS as my pool has been closed. Can swim at other club location, not as convenient. have a group doing OWS. Pool re-opens tomorrow. would you prefer me in the pool or doing OWS for other swims.. Sunday swim will be 5000 OWS
Based on this ride I would set you at 180, so that you could be a champ over that last hour. Early lap power doesn't matter as much as late lap power. Remember, everyone in your age group is overachieving early so that was good Watts don't get you as much as they would later.
This tells me that if it's going to be that hot on race day, you might want to dial Watts back another 5w less. . That type of "decoupling" is typically a result of poor nutrition. So if it will be that hot, we drop the effort a little bit we increase your first our bottles, and we make sure we use that other helmet.
So I'm great I thought, just some lessons learned.
did the week as structured above
underlines below are links to strava files on runs & bikes
Thursday Brad & I biked up to his Berkshire house, 90 miles, lots of really good false flat TT terrain, followed it up with a 4.5 mile run at 7:47 w hills!
Friday - waited out the rain, Brad swam, I ran 7.2 (7:51/mi) then we biked around 30 miles
Saturday - 100 mile strong ride, lots of good TT terrain, stayed away from the temptation to ride the hills...
Comment on both bikes, on most long rides, for the last hour, I can't wait for it to be over, on both of these rides, I was enjoying the whole ride, afterwards, Brad was expressing his soreness, I felt more tired than sore. btw, all three days were pretty humid... not horribly hot, but definite humidity
Sunday - opened up with a 11 mile run at 7:58s and then did a 4400 yd OWS
Data from 3 Bikes
top line is Lap NP, most laps 15', some as long as 45'
2nd line is AvgHR- Lap
Friday
5:02; 92mi; 255TSS; NP 187; AP 177; VI 1.06; Elev 3900
155 177 191 187 174 193 189 197 177 190 198 183
111 105 109 107 100 121 119 122 114 127 132 122
Saturday
1:35; 28.2mi; 78TSS; NP 183 ;AP 168; VI 1.09; Elev 1500 (a couple of no pedal steep downhills on unfamiliar choppy roads)
173 186 178 180 189 198 179 187 189 182 193 204 201
109 114 110 112 115 119 103 107 108 111 114 120 120
Sunday
Additionally the 2016 LP bike data where I consciously slowed down on lap 2. Note that FTP was 262 (10 watts lower than today)5:19; 101mi; 282 TSS; NP 190; AP 182; VI 1.04; Elev 4300
NP 189 195 181 186 191 186 191 183 194 197 181 192 174 183 196 180 195 192 200 178 217
HR 110 112 109 108 112 109 111 109 114 116 113 117 113 117 124 118 123 123 120 115 126
Loop 1 = 2:49 @185NP 133HR
Loop 2= 2:58 @163NP 136HR
Maybe that rainstorm on Friday was actually the best thing that could've happened. :-) Really excited to see the numbers you've laid out in the corresponding heart rates. I think you can definitely go with the higher number if you want - 190NP Target would probably give you 185 at the end of the day… That's usually how the numbers roll out.
It will all come down for the day. If it's going to be a wicked hot run, then we have to be conservative on the bike even though you can go stronger. If it looks like optimal conditions for Racing then perhaps we can be a little more aggressive.
Either way, we need to keep you under control until the top of the descent with some specific type of power power numbers so you don't overdo it once you get to the bottom you can get to work.
As you know, it's all about so me right now and getting in some consistent aerobic activity. Nothing flashy anymore time to get you set up all dialed in and everything you need purchased for the trip. You and I can talk in more detail on Thursday.
Can read my rationale for each race on this thread (maybe you can post your thoughts for others to see?)
My Race Report with Data is here
Remember, you need to have a great race and order a cake you. Don't put the end goal in front of the process itself… You're right process will yield the results you want.