hooray everybody is back from vacation... are you kidding me "what to read?" why without you Nemo, we have no idea where anything is!!! perhaps it is not the 4.0 forum that has been so confusing but the lack of our onsite go to gal!! oh yeah, the vibes of the forum have been confusing and we are glad to have you back to figure it out!!!! no really, the forum is progressing quite nicely and some changes have even been made to the plans,
although to be honest I can't tell cuz the last 1.5 weeks I have done no training! so who knows for me what got changed!! but I did print it off!!
oh yeah, we talk nail polish in the forum and I am still an OPI gal and nope don't do them myself either, are you kidding?, I would have red nail polish all over my little piggies!!! a little luxury for me
yes the health industry took over the posts for awhile and it got terribly gross!!! and I knew none of that stuff.... but I have some gross "kid" stories but I am gonna keep some of them to myself as I know some of you don't have kids (yet) and don't wanna scare you off!
sorry about the family stuff, and yes been there on that one and troublesome and stressful....
well listen two sons watching Brett Favre on TV, one girl in the shower, one downstairs with friend and husband STILL sick with vertigo/?? and so I am signing off.... m
Yay!!! Nemo's back!!!! Can't wait for pix and a full report. I hope you loved it. And if you tell us you're moving there, I'm going too.
. . .
You'll be happy to know, I have not been involved in any further dust ups with the NOS men. I don't really check in there or post much anymore. Just no community vibe for me overall. Plugging away on all the workouts, and doing the best I can. The OS is a LOT more reasonable than our first year. Remember that? 10K tests, and FTP test every month. This is almost enjoyable.
I agree on both points--glad that Nemo is back and also happy about the changes made to the OS (even from last year--thank God I missed the first year's 10k tests!). Testing every 8 weeks as opposed to every month is so much better!
Happy rest day tomorrow, ladies. This week feels like a good one to have in the books, training wise. On to the next.
I've heard lots of you mention this happening, but powermeter -- I had not quite made my peace with that little yellow whip on my bike yet. Yesterday, I totally murdered myself on intervals. I worked hard. I hit big numbers. I worked like I didn't know how to work before. And I hated it! I hated it a lot less today when I went out running and was perfectly fine. I guess I can work harder on the bike and that tiny yellow computer is going to help me.
Beth--you're working off and FTP test, right? And not just going as hard as you can, right? Just making sure.
Oh, the little dust up in the OS--Rich posted an ammendment to the Adv bike plan, saying that 3x12 was a mistake, and that 2x12 was the correct workout. Becasue some people had already done the bike workout, there was this whole hew and cry (think Braveheart going into battle) of "yeah, so what, crush it anyway"..."who cares, we're doing 3x12 no matter what"...So my point was, wow, coach takes the time to tell you it's a mistake, tells you what to do, and you all just want to do what you want anyway. There was a whole culture over there that more is more, you have to have big balls and to crush yourself into a pulp...blah, blah, blah. This whole energy was taking over about "if we do this much, more is better--more and harder is better yet." I have been here since day one, and while working hard is a big part of EN,we're smarter than that. It's a balance. So I called them out on it. Let's just say it didn't go over to well with a lot of the guys. Thank heavens for Nemo and Josh Weiss stepping up to get my back. It felt like it was about to turn ugly. But I was right, and that bravado is counterproductive in the long run. There's a difference between enthusiasm and being stoopid. So that's the story.Don't get me started on people in the Adv plan who shouldn't be.
Linda, Not sure what happened in the Nov OS. I started to go in and post numbers, but felt a little swallowed up by all the guys and their big, big metrics. Im just not that into all the numbers all the time, so I have kind of lost interest in the forum. But, to be fair, the guys seem friendly and ready to help. I can understand your frustration though when others don't see what you are "seeing".
This font thing drives me crazy!! Oh and speaking of crazy and frustrated, got my pt back on Friday, tried it on Sunday.....Still not working!!!!So, back on the phone this morning to Saris. This is ridiculous, you'd think they could fix it the first time around, since it cost me $75 to get it ready (take casseste off, which I still don't know how to do, but will be forced to learn soon because going to the lbs every time I need to take the casseste off costs me $20!) boxed up and finally ship!! I am so frustrated with this whole thing I could cry Anyone else have a pt that didn't zero the torque automatically between intervals and then had to get off the bike during the ride to zero the darn thing Sorry girls, this is a venting day
Posted By Linda Patch on 07 Dec 2009 06:09 AM Don't get me started on people in the Adv plan who shouldn't be.
LP, you're awesome. would love to hear your take on this one. I always giggle at the plan selection period because it's always this big to do over where you belong and it comes down to IM/HIM finish times which... really?? so inaccurate based on where you are currently on the fitness spectrum. just because you raced a 10:15 six months ago doesn't mean come day 1 of the OS you'll be ready for that workload. likewise (and I'll use myself as an example here) I have no business using an advanced IM plan based on finish times etc, but from a fitness persepective, I came into the OS with 1-2 months of solid fitness and lots of speed work under my belt due to 1/2 mary prep and cross racing. definitely made me ponder and ultimately ask rnp, hence the bump up. I did however, get lots of questions from other OS'ers and whether they should be up there to. very weird.
Linda - I'm going off ftp numbers with a heart rate check as back up. I was just having the week where it was hard to do anything on the bike.
Although I hear you about understanding what work is most productive. Last year, I spent a lot of last winter probably running too hard. This year I seem to be understanding the different varieties of running fast. TP is that lovely part of hard where it just starts to get uncomfortable; IP is fast and fun; 5k pace is the part where I remember I was holding back on TP and finally get to run at the speed I think I can run.
I never know if my definition of "crushing it" is too hard or not hard enough,
What are all of your definitions of TP/IP/ and crushing it? What are your perceived effort cues?
Leigh--I think "shouldn't" is likely too strong a word. People can do what they want. But I do think that many believe that training is a straight line, i.e. Adv plan means the fastest IM race outcome. That's so not necessarily true. Look at Norton. He got a whopping PR on the beginner plan, and a sub 12. He was able to train 100% at that level, recover, train again, and race 100%. I think many people--men especially, and living in a house full I see it all the time--can be very bad at assessing the more nuanced elements in things like asking, "is this REALLY right for me? Am I really living up to this 100%? Would backing down be the smarter choice and ultimately a more powerful choice?" It's so much easier to say--if it's Adv, it's better. If it's harder, it's better. If it's more, it's better. Growwwwl, growwwwl, more, more, let's tear our eyes out!. That' what I mean. People work beyond their abilities because of ego. You can already see some fraying around the edges with folks at week freakin' 5. Will they back down? No way. Should they? Maybe, maybe not. If they need too, bet you they dig a hole rather than back off. It's rare to find someone at Mancona's ability that can nail this puppy from beginning to end, and truly belong there.But in the end, I have to stop talking about this stuff, and sticking my neck out. It's not recognized for what it is--a well-meaning counterpoint. I just sound like a nag and a bitch. Instead of being truthful about a lot of stuff here, I'm jumping on the rah-rah bandwagon. Easier.
Beth--I just go by metrics. I work off FT, and Vdot. Some days I hit it, some days I get to 95%. It's all good. If I see my running really hitting the intervals solidly for 4 weeks ala Daniels, I'll then up my Vdot by 1. If I'm really, really pooped sometimes I adjust time or rest. Some weeks are just hard, and they suck.
Kathy--I think it's hard for me there because I keep living in the last and remember the first Oct OS group. Unbelievable spirit and fun. Oh well, that was what was. The whole numbers overload there is too much for me. Totally sucks about the PT! I don't have one of the newer models, so I have to zero the torque manually anyway. I hope it resolves soon!
Linda- thanks for responding! My theory is that realistically, most people can survive 1 over the top season. it may not be pretty and it may impact results, but can they get away with it in the short term?? probably. it's the people entering seasons 2 and 3 in the house that I really pay attention to, the long term peeps. Without true down times and rest, cumulative fatigue (physical and mental) will be front and center by then.
Kathy - I should have clarified - 5k testing pace when I need a new 5k. When I reviewed the power seminar, Rich said something about TP being the pace you could hold for an hour, with a gun to your head. I have been liking going out, running intervals and thinking there are at a pace I could run for an hour. I like trying to figure out what the charts, paces, and graphs feel like. Last winter, I went from just running to learning what easy, fast, and medium speeds were. Now, it is fun to learn how different varieties of fast feel. It is cool like of my body has getting more "gears."
Linda - Thank you. The ladies and smart peeps of this haus are briliant. Cramer's discussion of why I should get a power tap before a fancy bike or race wheels? So smart and intelligent. John Stark's assessment of powertap computer v. 310xt? Classic. Nemo giving me solid advice on how those of us with 3+ hour 1/2 ironman bike splits probably need to add some time to our projected run paces? Helped me have an awesome first 1/2 last year.
Please, keep being cool and smart and brilliant! We need you.
Linda: I remembered when you jumped right into the feeding frenzy of NOS/more is moremoremore. First, I thought what big brass ones you had to do it. Second, I don't think you sounded like a nag or bitch at all. In fact, you were the voice of reason among the zeal of over-training. I was surprised that RnP didn't jump in, but then it is the OS thread where that they don't frequent often. I was just about to bring up Norton (Bill Russell) too---beating a 21 year old PR and going sub-12 doing the Beginner plan and being consistent. Too bad there's no VI for consistency in training.
Kathy: Sorry to hear about your PT woes. It IS frustrating to have to monkey with this technology. Concerning removing a cassette, it's really quite easy. Take that $20 and get yourself a cassette tool and chain whip. Here's a how-to video: http://bicycletutor.com/replace-cassette-cluster/
Beth: My perception of my effort depends on the loudness of my inner whiny voice or how much testosterone my ego had for breakfast. So thank goodness for Garmins and PM's! Like Linda I go strictly by the numbers according to my Vdot and FTP.
Well, the DH and I probably drink 6 alcoholic beverages a year each. Yep, we're cheap dates! On Sat night, we went on a double date with a friend and his new girlfriend. The started with champagne to toast the holidays, then proceed to drink one glass of red wine with our dinner (steak). So that's 1 flute of champagne and 1 glass of wine for each of us. The next morning we both woke up with pounding headaches. DH spent most of the day in bed hungover. On the other hand, I made plans with 7 friends to go mountain biking in the morning before the ground thawed (so early and cold!). I couldn't miss it as it was my idea to drag everyone out on a chilly Sun morning to ride. So the cold air did help my headache, but the hangover did little for my climbing. Ha! I believe I told a similiar story around this time last year which means I apparently didn't learn my lesson back then. Note to self: Do not consume 1/3 of annual alcohol intake in one night.
Leigh--exactly. Maybe I shouldn't care so much what others do, but I can see long-term negatives for EN from the actions of people being too aggressive on their own. Eventually, that approach stops working. It always does--sooner or later. Then, instead of looking in the mirror at the problem, people start saying EN "doesn't work long term." In my crystal ball, I can see it happening. Once that takes root, people in the same place can jump on that bandwagon. This is not my business, nor my livelihood, but like you, RnP have done a lot for me, and I'd like them succeed with a long-term crew, not a revolving door. Even Norton will tell you he was getting down on EN because it was beating him into the ground, and he had a sub-par CdA. He figured out he was in over his head, backed it down and soared. It's just not a straight line, and being an independent thinker is always best--as you are.
Also, remember, I had an elite development triathlete son. I lived first hand, the "how hard to train" dilemma watching what happened to him. Ryan was recrutied by an elite tri development team with the goal of getting a spot on the US team. He trained for two seasons with Jarrod Shoemaker. My son is very talented, and very fast. As the coach said, he "came out of nowhere" to qualify for collegiate nationals--and in the top 5 too. But you know what...the coach actually took my son DOWN a notch or two in training. As fast and as talented as he is, he just stopped absorbing at a certain point. The gains started to go backwards. So for him, he did less than some on the team who couldn't seem to absorb enough (ala Mancona, my hero ). It was hard--at first--for Ryan to swallow it when teammates were doing more. Then his racing got crazy good. Collegiate nationals qualification followed. It's just not a straight line--no matter how talented one is are, think one is, or want to be. I learned a lot from watching that. Ryan went on to save the world, but it was a fascinating, and very cool three years.
Can't wait to read the marathon thread coming up. Staying out of that one.
Well ladies, re-entry into the "real world" isn't easy!!! Michele- you and I need a support group!!! I'm almost through my work emails and I think I'll be ready to actually have a "normal" work day tomorrow.
RE the "more is more" threat. I beleive I recall an old podcast where Coach P said something like people hire a coach because they say they need someone there to crack the whip for them and keep them on task, but he finds most of his time is spent telling people to back it down. I think we see a little of that here too.
I'll start the OS officially in Jan and until then I'm just gonna back out of the OS chatter so I can keep my head strait. Besides, I've been having some calf tightness issues (I'm just a little worried it might be compression syndrom) and so I am more concerned with being healthy and consistent this year than trying to "one up" anyone else. In fact, Bill's race report has made me start to think long an hard about if I should back down to Beginner and leave the Intermediate plan behind.
I'm working on Joe to get our pictures together so I can post something tonight. I've already written the summary (which is 6 pages long- not much of a summary) to go with the pics when we finally pair them down to a slideshow that's much more reasonable!
Linda--Ugh. Sorry to hear about your run-in with the testosterone-laden. It's just this sort of ridiculous "more is more" talk that made me stop reading Slowtwitch. Whenever I read something like this, I think "yeah, but will you still be racing and training when you're 46 or will you be burned out/chronically injured/too busy to fit your massive training schedule into your life?" I suspect that the answer is probably no.
Colleen--now there's the long view, GF! It's likely the reason why there are so few of us in my 50-55 age group! It's all I can go not to say--"Yeah people, talk to me literally 25 years from where you are now, and tell me what you think about all that nonsense!" I've been training and racing almost as long as sweet Mancona has been alive! Man, I'm gettin' up there!
Kathy: Sorry to hear about your PT woes. It IS frustrating to have to monkey with this technology. Concerning removing a cassette, it's really quite easy. Take that $20 and get yourself a cassette tool and chain whip. Here's a how-to video: http://bicycletutor.com/replace-cassette-cluster/
Done!! Thanks Kitima awesome video By the time I am done with this bike journey, I will not be afraid to take that wrench to the ole bike! Oh and just for the record, called Saris again this morning and they are paying for me to send my wheel back...again! Hopefully, for the last time
Nemo- Welcome back! I can NOT wait for your vacation summary. NZ is totally a dream destination for me! As for the forum- I was in the same boat. Everything was new. I spent 2 hours on this thread alone and a total of another 6 on the rest of the forum (divided over several days). I did NOT read everything, I couldn't. But based on thread names, many were not pertinent. As for my work e-mail... over 300. Between patients today I whittled it down to about 70 to go through over this week. I will be with you in Jan OS. I am doing the preseason workouts, some "Get Insanity" videos, and hoping that if it is gonna snow, then it will be enough to X-C ski. So sorry about your BIL. That is distressing.
Linda- Based on the summary of the Nov OS issue that you posted here, I think you called it perfectly. Those with OS experience know that more does not always equal better. I am sorry that you took a virtual beating. I really respect your experience. As for advanced vs. intermediate- testosterone and ego are a deadly combination. You and Leigh make great points.
Marianne- Is DH making any progress? So sorry for how he feels. Hang in there.
OK- I really hate not having the ability to look back while in typing mode. I know there was more to say....
Whew- what a weekend!! First things first.... welcome back Nemo & Michele! I think Oliva is on vaca now if I remember right. Kit is Feb and so is M's mission trip, and Beth skiing is still out there too I think? We're going to have to start a EN chicka calendar! I'm so glad we have the email feature to follow threads so I can keep up with "As the En chicks turn" have to tune in everyday!!
Linda- I know what you mean abt the first Oct OS. Such a blast and great positive vibes. I didn't mess much with the group last year- just kinda kept my nose to the grindstone and not too chatty. I am proud of you for standing your ground and not letting those mean ole boyz get to ya! And it's not just the 50 somethings that are affected. I can tell you at 42, my body knows it's limits and as my ortho said.. you can be faster than your 20's, stronger than your 20's but it WILL take longer for you to recover. There is a cost for everything and when your body overpays, the piper will be paid somewhere down the line.
Ok- back to this weekend- got down to Memphis Fri afternoon. Swung by the expo and picked up a sweet long sleeve dri fit shirt. Not in the mood to fight my way through the expo booths so I headed back out for a early dinner and put my feet up. Weather was on the chilly side- mid 30's at the start and never did warm up much. One thing I love about cold weather races is there's always "THAT guy" you know, the one who shows up in shorts & tank top regardless of the temps- and NOOO he's not cold, he's simply jogging in place and dancing around to "get ready" for the race. I lined up with the 3:45 pace group. The race start was sent up in waves/corrals starting 2' apart- which was nice. 11,000 folks signed up for the 1/2 and 3500 for the full so lots of company. i was surprised to be stepped on and elbowed more times than I could count in the first 2 miles. It was like a IM swim start with sneakers!! The course this year was routed so we ran right through the St Judes campus around mile 5 which was cool. Definitely brought a tear to the eye seeing the many, many folks lining the course with pics of their kids and thanking us for running.
Was on track for goal through mile 13 but was really starting to have issues with the camber on the roads (yes M- I know now what you meant and neither the high road by the cones or the ditches agreed well with my left knee & hip). Miles 14-17 were a bit fuzzy and my brain started doing some funny math. I had figured somehow that I was still ok and could do 9' pace from mile 20 and still make it. I got to mile 19 and realized I had dropped a mile somewhere in my calculations and would have to run 8' pace for the last 6 to make it. I would not let my body give up but it was sure back talking me. I've had issues on my long run with a tendon along the front of my left leg (from the camber in the roads here in KY) so this was not the friendliest of courses to hit for me. Volunteers and aid stations were great. Wish I coulda hung with the pace group- those folks were really good! I guess with the course changes we didn't have to run a lap around the stadium (a pleasant surprise) and there were plenty of folks there to cheer you in. I ended up a bit over 4 hrs, which is a 40'+ PR from my last open mary 7-8 yrs ago and close enough now that I know I can hit the 3:50 mark.
Anyone know of any good late Dec/early Jan flat, fast marathons? Had looked at Disney, but not sure I can affort (125 entry + travel- Yikes)
Awesome marathon write-up, Kris. Way to do the day.
All this talk about why and how we do things is great. And is reminding me of the first rule I made of triathlon -- on the first day of my couch to 5k plan: it had to be fun. I think last week, sitting on my fancy new bike with my fancy new powertap, I forgot to have fun. With a September race on the schedule, starting the training year in November was, perhaps, not my best idea. So less thinking ahead. More fun. Just because I have gadgets doesn't mean I'm a serious athlete. Girls' got to follow her own rules.
This sounds like the times I have run it!!! my IT was big time flared up!!! and I saw my pace group run on by. but congrats on the marathon!!! our marathon here is Early March. Little Rock, hilly. AZ is in Jan, PF changs, disney January, off the top of my head, haven't googled. congrats though. enjoy the recovery. proud of ya. okay so I miss Gina!! and realy wanted to hear more about AZ and keep checking in there... but even not AZ just give us a word!! Husband on the mend but still sick... ear infection, viral that affected a lot. taking son into today to see if he needs wrist surgery over Christmas. woke up to Rain! hope for master's swim at lunch, slog jogged one mile yesterday, still hurt but hard to get warmed up in the cold. might try sitting on heating pad!!! butt/ham. but 40 degrees and humidity was my warmest morn of the week!!! gotta scoot on outta here. Watched Marley and Me as a family, rarity, family movie and nobody told me it is the modern day "Old Yeller"....!! Holiday Hugs to everybody. remember if you see an event down here.. you are welcome to stay here. will kick a kid outta his bed!!! m
Congratulations Kris!!! Oh yeah, 3:50 is well within your capabilities! I know Kiawa is in December and you've been itching to get to the beach- so maybe that would work?
I'd probably loose my WSM status for sharing this in the general forum, but check out http://www.marathonguide.com/ for a full list of races with great race reviews by folks who have done the race. In my marathoning days this was my main tool for finding the perfect race to meet my schedule and goal needs. I really wish they'd do something similar for triathlons!!
Kris! A 40' PR IN THE MARATHON????? Wow, girl, that's excellent! Congrats on a gritty, get-it-done day! Proud of you! And, hell yeah, 3:50 is definitely within reach. {{{{Congrats!!!!}}}}
P did his sub-3 at Bay State here in MA. Pancake flat. It's in October, but you never know where life might take you! And, of course, you'd have NO hotel costs cuz you would stay with me. I would drive you to the start, sherpa you, and be at the finish! Keep it in mind, k?
Congrats Kris. Marathoning is brutal. You are a studdette. I cheered my friends on this Sunday at the Santa Barbara Marathon. The looks on peoples faces as they were finishing was priceless. The legs and body were done but they were somehow still moving forward. It got me choked up. One of our friends( a guy) started to cry a bit after he finished...he had run to" that place "....you know the one only endurance sports can take you to( or child birth)....of total exaustion and his legs were like concrete as he tried to finish that last 200 yards....incredible.
Nemo and Michelle welcome back.
I am reading all your posts as best I can. Keeping you all in my thoughts.
I am new around here. I have popped in and out but I am here to stay now. I just read through this entire thread and absolutly LOVE getting to know all of you. I feel kind of like a stalker though. So, I just really wanted to stay hello!
Oh my Laura- you've read this whole thread???? That's quite ambitious! Thank goodness we continued from EN 3.0 and you don't have all those posts to read too! Welcome, please stick around and chime in whenever you can.
Carrie- nice to hear from ya- whatever happened to that 700+ patient? Were you able to lay low enough to stear clear of that one?
@Nemo - at work yesterday I noticed the 717 pounder was on our schedule!! I screamed!! A weekend PT agreed to take her on our caseload. Get outa here!! Seems the MD's felt it was not necessary to keep her in the hospital ( thank goodness) and they sent her home yesterday via ambulance.Phew!!
What did they want us to do with her?? We don't even have equipment to fit her, nothing.
Comments
hooray everybody is back from vacation... are you kidding me "what to read?" why without you Nemo, we have no idea where anything is!!!
perhaps it is not the 4.0 forum that has been so confusing but the lack of our onsite go to gal!! oh yeah, the vibes of the forum have been confusing and we are glad to have you back to figure it out!!!! no really, the forum is progressing quite nicely and some changes have even been made to the plans,
although to be honest I can't tell cuz the last 1.5 weeks I have done no training! so who knows for me what got changed!! but I did print it off!!
oh yeah, we talk nail polish in the forum and I am still an OPI gal and nope don't do them myself either, are you kidding?, I would have red nail polish all over my little piggies!!! a little luxury for me
yes the health industry took over the posts for awhile and it got terribly gross!!!
and I knew none of that stuff.... but I have some gross "kid" stories but I am gonna keep some of them to myself as I know some of you don't have kids (yet) and don't wanna scare you off! 
sorry about the family stuff, and yes been there on that one and troublesome and stressful....
well listen two sons watching Brett Favre on TV, one girl in the shower, one downstairs with friend and husband STILL sick with vertigo/?? and so I am signing off.... m
Nemo!
Happy rest day tomorrow, ladies. This week feels like a good one to have in the books, training wise. On to the next.
I've heard lots of you mention this happening, but powermeter -- I had not quite made my peace with that little yellow whip on my bike yet. Yesterday, I totally murdered myself on intervals. I worked hard. I hit big numbers. I worked like I didn't know how to work before. And I hated it!
I hated it a lot less today when I went out running and was perfectly fine. I guess I can work harder on the bike and that tiny yellow computer is going to help me. 
Welcome back, Nemo! I can't wait to hear all about your vacation. NZ is a dream destination.
Linda, I don't know what happened in the November OS, but you are welcome to jump in our social little October OS group. We have some great people!
Beth--you're working off and FTP test, right? And not just going as hard as you can, right? Just making sure.
Oh, the little dust up in the OS--Rich posted an ammendment to the Adv bike plan, saying that 3x12 was a mistake, and that 2x12 was the correct workout. Becasue some people had already done the bike workout, there was this whole hew and cry (think Braveheart going into battle) of "yeah, so what, crush it anyway"..."who cares, we're doing 3x12 no matter what"...So my point was, wow, coach takes the time to tell you it's a mistake, tells you what to do, and you all just want to do what you want anyway. There was a whole culture over there that more is more, you have to have big balls and to crush yourself into a pulp...blah, blah, blah. This whole energy was taking over about "if we do this much, more is better--more and harder is better yet." I have been here since day one, and while working hard is a big part of EN,we're smarter than that. It's a balance. So I called them out on it. Let's just say it didn't go over to well with a lot of the guys. Thank heavens for Nemo and Josh Weiss stepping up to get my back. It felt like it was about to turn ugly. But I was right, and that bravado is counterproductive in the long run. There's a difference between enthusiasm and being stoopid.
So that's the story.Don't get me started on people in the Adv plan who shouldn't be. 
Linda, Not sure what happened in the Nov OS. I started to go in and post numbers, but felt a little swallowed up by all the guys and their big, big metrics. Im just not that into all the numbers all the time, so I have kind of lost interest in the forum. But, to be fair, the guys seem friendly and ready to help. I can understand your frustration though when others don't see what you are "seeing".
This font thing drives me crazy!! Oh and speaking of crazy and frustrated, got my pt back on Friday, tried it on Sunday.....Still not working!!!! So, back on the phone this morning to Saris. This is ridiculous, you'd think they could fix it the first time around, since it cost me $75 to get it ready (take casseste off, which I still don't know how to do, but will be forced to learn soon because going to the lbs every time I need to take the casseste off costs me $20!) boxed up and finally ship!! I am so frustrated with this whole thing I could cry
Anyone else have a pt that didn't zero the torque automatically between intervals and then had to get off the bike during the ride to zero the darn thing 
Sorry girls, this is a venting day 
Kathy - how frustrating about the powertap.
Linda - I'm going off ftp numbers with a heart rate check as back up. I was just having the week where it was hard to do anything on the bike.
Although I hear you about understanding what work is most productive. Last year, I spent a lot of last winter probably running too hard. This year I seem to be understanding the different varieties of running fast. TP is that lovely part of hard where it just starts to get uncomfortable; IP is fast and fun; 5k pace is the part where I remember I was holding back on TP and finally get to run at the speed I think I can run.
I never know if my definition of "crushing it" is too hard or not hard enough,
What are all of your definitions of TP/IP/ and crushing it? What are your perceived effort cues?
Beth- I thought TP = 5K pace?
Leigh--I think "shouldn't" is likely too strong a word. People can do what they want. But I do think that many believe that training is a straight line, i.e. Adv plan means the fastest IM race outcome. That's so not necessarily true. Look at Norton. He got a whopping PR on the beginner plan, and a sub 12. He was able to train 100% at that level, recover, train again, and race 100%. I think many people--men especially, and living in a house full I see it all the time--can be very bad at assessing the more nuanced elements in things like asking, "is this REALLY right for me? Am I really living up to this 100%? Would backing down be the smarter choice and ultimately a more powerful choice?" It's so much easier to say--if it's Adv, it's better. If it's harder, it's better. If it's more, it's better. Growwwwl, growwwwl, more, more, let's tear our eyes out!. That' what I mean. People work beyond their abilities because of ego. You can already see some fraying around the edges with folks at week freakin' 5. Will they back down? No way. Should they? Maybe, maybe not. If they need too, bet you they dig a hole rather than back off. It's rare to find someone at Mancona's ability that can nail this puppy from beginning to end, and truly belong there.But in the end, I have to stop talking about this stuff, and sticking my neck out. It's not recognized for what it is--a well-meaning counterpoint. I just sound like a nag and a bitch. Instead of being truthful about a lot of stuff here, I'm jumping on the rah-rah bandwagon. Easier.
Beth--I just go by metrics. I work off FT, and Vdot. Some days I hit it, some days I get to 95%. It's all good. If I see my running really hitting the intervals solidly for 4 weeks ala Daniels, I'll then up my Vdot by 1. If I'm really, really pooped sometimes I adjust time or rest. Some weeks are just hard, and they suck.
Kathy--I think it's hard for me there because I keep living in the last and remember the first Oct OS group. Unbelievable spirit and fun. Oh well, that was what was. The whole numbers overload there is too much for me. Totally sucks about the PT! I don't have one of the newer models, so I have to zero the torque manually anyway. I hope it resolves soon!
Off to a short swim! Rule breaker that I am!
Linda- thanks for responding!
My theory is that realistically, most people can survive 1 over the top season. it may not be pretty and it may impact results, but can they get away with it in the short term?? probably. it's the people entering seasons 2 and 3 in the house that I really pay attention to, the long term peeps. Without true down times and rest, cumulative fatigue (physical and mental) will be front and center by then.
Kathy - I should have clarified - 5k testing pace when I need a new 5k.
When I reviewed the power seminar, Rich said something about TP being the pace you could hold for an hour, with a gun to your head. I have been liking going out, running intervals and thinking there are at a pace I could run for an hour. I like trying to figure out what the charts, paces, and graphs feel like. Last winter, I went from just running to learning what easy, fast, and medium speeds were. Now, it is fun to learn how different varieties of fast feel. It is cool like of my body has getting more "gears."
Linda - Thank you. The ladies and smart peeps of this haus are briliant. Cramer's discussion of why I should get a power tap before a fancy bike or race wheels? So smart and intelligent. John Stark's assessment of powertap computer v. 310xt? Classic. Nemo giving me solid advice on how those of us with 3+ hour 1/2 ironman bike splits probably need to add some time to our projected run paces? Helped me have an awesome first 1/2 last year.
Please, keep being cool and smart and brilliant! We need you.
Linda: I remembered when you jumped right into the feeding frenzy of NOS/more is moremoremore. First, I thought what big brass ones you had to do it.
Second, I don't think you sounded like a nag or bitch at all. In fact, you were the voice of reason among the zeal of over-training. I was surprised that RnP didn't jump in, but then it is the OS thread where that they don't frequent often. I was just about to bring up Norton (Bill Russell) too---beating a 21 year old PR and going sub-12 doing the Beginner plan and being consistent. Too bad there's no VI for consistency in training.
Kathy: Sorry to hear about your PT woes. It IS frustrating to have to monkey with this technology. Concerning removing a cassette, it's really quite easy. Take that $20 and get yourself a cassette tool and chain whip. Here's a how-to video: http://bicycletutor.com/replace-cassette-cluster/
Beth: My perception of my effort depends on the loudness of my inner whiny voice or how much testosterone my ego had for breakfast.
So thank goodness for Garmins and PM's! Like Linda I go strictly by the numbers according to my Vdot and FTP.
Well, the DH and I probably drink 6 alcoholic beverages a year each. Yep, we're cheap dates! On Sat night, we went on a double date with a friend and his new girlfriend. The started with champagne to toast the holidays, then proceed to drink one glass of red wine with our dinner (steak). So that's 1 flute of champagne and 1 glass of wine for each of us. The next morning we both woke up with pounding headaches.
DH spent most of the day in bed hungover. On the other hand, I made plans with 7 friends to go mountain biking in the morning before the ground thawed (so early and cold!). I couldn't miss it as it was my idea to drag everyone out on a chilly Sun morning to ride. 
So the cold air did help my headache, but the hangover did little for my climbing. Ha! I believe I told a similiar story around this time last year which means I apparently didn't learn my lesson back then. Note to self: Do not consume 1/3 of annual alcohol intake in one night.
Leigh--exactly. Maybe I shouldn't care so much what others do, but I can see long-term negatives for EN from the actions of people being too aggressive on their own. Eventually, that approach stops working. It always does--sooner or later. Then, instead of looking in the mirror at the problem, people start saying EN "doesn't work long term." In my crystal ball, I can see it happening. Once that takes root, people in the same place can jump on that bandwagon. This is not my business, nor my livelihood, but like you, RnP have done a lot for me, and I'd like them succeed with a long-term crew, not a revolving door. Even Norton will tell you he was getting down on EN because it was beating him into the ground, and he had a sub-par CdA. He figured out he was in over his head, backed it down and soared. It's just not a straight line, and being an independent thinker is always best--as you are.
Also, remember, I had an elite development triathlete son. I lived first hand, the "how hard to train" dilemma watching what happened to him. Ryan was recrutied by an elite tri development team with the goal of getting a spot on the US team. He trained for two seasons with Jarrod Shoemaker. My son is very talented, and very fast. As the coach said, he "came out of nowhere" to qualify for collegiate nationals--and in the top 5 too. But you know what...the coach actually took my son DOWN a notch or two in training. As fast and as talented as he is, he just stopped absorbing at a certain point. The gains started to go backwards. So for him, he did less than some on the team who couldn't seem to absorb enough (ala Mancona, my hero
). It was hard--at first--for Ryan to swallow it when teammates were doing more. Then his racing got crazy good. Collegiate nationals qualification followed. It's just not a straight line--no matter how talented one is are, think one is, or want to be. I learned a lot from watching that. Ryan went on to save the world, but it was a fascinating, and very cool three years.
Can't wait to read the marathon thread coming up.
Staying out of that one. 
Well ladies, re-entry into the "real world" isn't easy!!! Michele- you and I need a support group!!! I'm almost through my work emails and I think I'll be ready to actually have a "normal" work day tomorrow.
RE the "more is more" threat. I beleive I recall an old podcast where Coach P said something like people hire a coach because they say they need someone there to crack the whip for them and keep them on task, but he finds most of his time is spent telling people to back it down. I think we see a little of that here too.
I'll start the OS officially in Jan and until then I'm just gonna back out of the OS chatter so I can keep my head strait. Besides, I've been having some calf tightness issues (I'm just a little worried it might be compression syndrom) and so I am more concerned with being healthy and consistent this year than trying to "one up" anyone else. In fact, Bill's race report has made me start to think long an hard about if I should back down to Beginner and leave the Intermediate plan behind.
I'm working on Joe to get our pictures together so I can post something tonight. I've already written the summary (which is 6 pages long- not much of a summary) to go with the pics when we finally pair them down to a slideshow that's much more reasonable!
Linda--Ugh. Sorry to hear about your run-in with the testosterone-laden. It's just this sort of ridiculous "more is more" talk that made me stop reading Slowtwitch. Whenever I read something like this, I think "yeah, but will you still be racing and training when you're 46 or will you be burned out/chronically injured/too busy to fit your massive training schedule into your life?" I suspect that the answer is probably no.
Colleen--now there's the long view, GF! It's likely the reason why there are so few of us in my 50-55 age group! It's all I can go not to say--"Yeah people, talk to me literally 25 years from where you are now, and tell me what you think about all that nonsense!" I've been training and racing almost as long as sweet Mancona has been alive! Man, I'm gettin' up there!
Kathy: Sorry to hear about your PT woes. It IS frustrating to have to monkey with this technology. Concerning removing a cassette, it's really quite easy. Take that $20 and get yourself a cassette tool and chain whip. Here's a how-to video: http://bicycletutor.com/replace-cassette-cluster/
Done!! Thanks Kitima awesome video
By the time I am done with this bike journey, I will not be afraid to take that wrench to the ole bike! Oh and just for the record, called Saris again this morning and they are paying for me to send my wheel back...again! Hopefully, for the last time 
Nemo- Welcome back! I can NOT wait for your vacation summary. NZ is totally a dream destination for me! As for the forum- I was in the same boat. Everything was new. I spent 2 hours on this thread alone and a total of another 6 on the rest of the forum (divided over several days). I did NOT read everything, I couldn't. But based on thread names, many were not pertinent. As for my work e-mail... over 300. Between patients today I whittled it down to about 70 to go through over this week. I will be with you in Jan OS. I am doing the preseason workouts, some "Get Insanity" videos, and hoping that if it is gonna snow, then it will be enough to X-C ski. So sorry about your BIL. That is distressing.
Linda- Based on the summary of the Nov OS issue that you posted here, I think you called it perfectly. Those with OS experience know that more does not always equal better. I am sorry that you took a virtual beating. I really respect your experience. As for advanced vs. intermediate- testosterone and ego are a deadly combination. You and Leigh make great points.
Marianne- Is DH making any progress? So sorry for how he feels. Hang in there.
OK- I really hate not having the ability to look back while in typing mode. I know there was more to say....
Whew- what a weekend!! First things first.... welcome back Nemo & Michele! I think Oliva is on vaca now if I remember right. Kit is Feb and so is M's mission trip, and Beth skiing is still out there too I think? We're going to have to start a EN chicka calendar! I'm so glad we have the email feature to follow threads so I can keep up with "As the En chicks turn" have to tune in everyday!!
Linda- I know what you mean abt the first Oct OS. Such a blast and great positive vibes. I didn't mess much with the group last year- just kinda kept my nose to the grindstone and not too chatty. I am proud of you for standing your ground and not letting those mean ole boyz get to ya! And it's not just the 50 somethings that are affected. I can tell you at 42, my body knows it's limits and as my ortho said.. you can be faster than your 20's, stronger than your 20's but it WILL take longer for you to recover. There is a cost for everything and when your body overpays, the piper will be paid somewhere down the line.
Ok- back to this weekend- got down to Memphis Fri afternoon. Swung by the expo and picked up a sweet long sleeve dri fit shirt. Not in the mood to fight my way through the expo booths so I headed back out for a early dinner and put my feet up. Weather was on the chilly side- mid 30's at the start and never did warm up much. One thing I love about cold weather races is there's always "THAT guy" you know, the one who shows up in shorts & tank top regardless of the temps- and NOOO he's not cold, he's simply jogging in place and dancing around to "get ready" for the race. I lined up with the 3:45 pace group. The race start was sent up in waves/corrals starting 2' apart- which was nice. 11,000 folks signed up for the 1/2 and 3500 for the full so lots of company. i was surprised to be stepped on and elbowed more times than I could count in the first 2 miles. It was like a IM swim start with sneakers!! The course this year was routed so we ran right through the St Judes campus around mile 5 which was cool. Definitely brought a tear to the eye seeing the many, many folks lining the course with pics of their kids and thanking us for running.
Was on track for goal through mile 13 but was really starting to have issues with the camber on the roads (yes M- I know now what you meant and neither the high road by the cones or the ditches agreed well with my left knee & hip). Miles 14-17 were a bit fuzzy and my brain started doing some funny math. I had figured somehow that I was still ok and could do 9' pace from mile 20 and still make it. I got to mile 19 and realized I had dropped a mile somewhere in my calculations and would have to run 8' pace for the last 6 to make it. I would not let my body give up but it was sure back talking me. I've had issues on my long run with a tendon along the front of my left leg (from the camber in the roads here in KY) so this was not the friendliest of courses to hit for me. Volunteers and aid stations were great. Wish I coulda hung with the pace group- those folks were really good! I guess with the course changes we didn't have to run a lap around the stadium (a pleasant surprise) and there were plenty of folks there to cheer you in. I ended up a bit over 4 hrs, which is a 40'+ PR from my last open mary 7-8 yrs ago and close enough now that I know I can hit the 3:50 mark.
Anyone know of any good late Dec/early Jan flat, fast marathons? Had looked at Disney, but not sure I can affort (125 entry + travel- Yikes)
Awesome marathon write-up, Kris.
Way to do the day.
All this talk about why and how we do things is great. And is reminding me of the first rule I made of triathlon -- on the first day of my couch to 5k plan: it had to be fun. I think last week, sitting on my fancy new bike with my fancy new powertap, I forgot to have fun. With a September race on the schedule, starting the training year in November was, perhaps, not my best idea. So less thinking ahead. More fun. Just because I have gadgets doesn't mean I'm a serious athlete.
Girls' got to follow her own rules.
This sounds like the times I have run it!!! my IT was big time flared up!!! and I saw my pace group run on by. but congrats on the marathon!!! our marathon here is Early March. Little Rock, hilly. AZ is in Jan, PF changs, disney January, off the top of my head, haven't googled. congrats though. enjoy the recovery. proud of ya. okay so I miss Gina!! and realy wanted to hear more about AZ and keep checking in there... but even not AZ just give us a word!! Husband on the mend but still sick... ear infection, viral that affected a lot. taking son into today to see if he needs wrist surgery over Christmas. woke up to Rain! hope for master's swim at lunch, slog jogged one mile yesterday, still hurt but hard to get warmed up in the cold. might try sitting on heating pad!!! butt/ham. but 40 degrees and humidity was my warmest morn of the week!!! gotta scoot on outta here. Watched Marley and Me as a family, rarity, family movie and nobody told me it is the modern day "Old Yeller"....!! Holiday Hugs to everybody. remember if you see an event down here.. you are welcome to stay here. will kick a kid outta his bed!!! m
Good conversation yesterday. I do love that we can talk about the less popular house issues in here. It's all a big learning experience.
Nemo + Michelle- welcome home!!
Congratulations Kris!!! Oh yeah, 3:50 is well within your capabilities! I know Kiawa is in December and you've been itching to get to the beach- so maybe that would work?
I'd probably loose my WSM status for sharing this in the general forum, but check out http://www.marathonguide.com/ for a full list of races with great race reviews by folks who have done the race. In my marathoning days this was my main tool for finding the perfect race to meet my schedule and goal needs. I really wish they'd do something similar for triathlons!!
Kris! A 40' PR IN THE MARATHON????? Wow, girl, that's excellent! Congrats on a gritty, get-it-done day! Proud of you! And, hell yeah, 3:50 is definitely within reach. {{{{Congrats!!!!}}}}
P did his sub-3 at Bay State here in MA. Pancake flat. It's in October, but you never know where life might take you! And, of course, you'd have NO hotel costs cuz you would stay with me. I would drive you to the start, sherpa you, and be at the finish! Keep it in mind, k?
Hi Ladies!
Congrats Kris. Marathoning is brutal. You are a studdette. I cheered my friends on this Sunday at the Santa Barbara Marathon. The looks on peoples faces as they were finishing was priceless. The legs and body were done but they were somehow still moving forward. It got me choked up. One of our friends( a guy) started to cry a bit after he finished...he had run to" that place "....you know the one only endurance sports can take you to( or child birth)....of total exaustion and his legs were like concrete as he tried to finish that last 200 yards....incredible.
Nemo and Michelle welcome back.
I am reading all your posts as best I can. Keeping you all in my thoughts.
XO Carrie
I am new around here. I have popped in and out but I am here to stay now. I just read through this entire thread and absolutly LOVE getting to know all of you. I feel kind of like a stalker though.
So, I just really wanted to stay hello!
Oh my Laura- you've read this whole thread???? That's quite ambitious! Thank goodness we continued from EN 3.0 and you don't have all those posts to read too!
Welcome, please stick around and chime in whenever you can.
Carrie- nice to hear from ya- whatever happened to that 700+ patient? Were you able to lay low enough to stear clear of that one?
Michele--Scroll down tot he bottom. Click on the arrow to the R on "topic review." Voila, the entire thread appears so you can look back.
What did they want us to do with her?? We don't even have equipment to fit her, nothing.
My back, arms and neck were spared.
CC